DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Brings up an interesting paradox...

Can UU have OU pokemon in it? I mean... Tentacruel is quite close to becoming OU afterall... (and that is by the definition of OU)... popularity...
 
It really depends on whether power or the variety of experience is what draws people to play UU. If desiring to use pokemon otherwise rendered useless by OU is the reason, then tentacruel and his kin should be allowed as long as they don't unbalance the metagame.

However, if the purpose of UU is to escape OU and "OU-lite," then pokemon with high usages should be banned on principle.

Adhering to principle is the primary reasoning behind Tangela's ban; otherwise that it would add another wall to the UU metagame. From what they can do, I don't think that the strategy when using Tangela is the same as that when using Tangrowth, but I have never faced a UU Tangela.
 
Let me posit a stupid idea from looking at that Shoddy usage chart:
The top 50 are OU. The next 100 are BL. The rest are UU.
Ubers are simply banned from play.

It's accurate to our current lists and is dynamic, just update it every few months.

EDIT: This just in, I posted this before I saw the post made by DT a few hours ago.
We're too similar.


As for your comment Fishin, people would not use pokemon if they were not powerful. You underestimate the power of countering something else. It's not just how hard you hit or how hard you can get it, sometimes it who you can OHKO or what teams you specialize on. That too is a "power".
 
BL is not based on usage. Only OU is. BL are Pokemon that are not commonly used but that would be too powerful for UU.
 
I'm just suggesting there is a strong correlation between position in usage and power (or utility or however you want to word it).
 
X-Act said:
BL is not based on usage. Only OU is. BL are Pokemon that are not commonly used but that would be too powerful for UU.
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Actually, what I meant was that the difference between OU and BL is based on usage. The differences between BL and UU or OU and ubers aren't based on usage. I guess I didn't word that correctly, my mistake.

I'm just suggesting there is a strong correlation between position in usage and power (or utility or however you want to word it).
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There often is, yeah. But there are also other factors - Metagross and Forry are both somewhat popular in ubers, does that mean they're too strong for OU? (I know you weren't including ubers in your idea, but this is the best example I can think of)

While it often is a factor, usage alone definitely isn't enough to define all the tiers by.
 
(I know you weren't including ubers in your idea, but this is the best example I can think of)
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It's an unsubstantial example since ubers are banned/not-banned, not usage. @_@

While it often is a factor, usage alone definitely isn't enough to define all the tiers by.
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Where is this written in stone? I highly beg to differ.
 
Pneuma said:
It's an unsubstantial example since ubers are banned/not-banned, not usage. @_@

Where is this written in stone? I highly beg to differ.
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While that example may have been a slightly bad one, the point is across regardless. Come on, you know that Fishin basically said that just because something can be used in a higher tier to success doesn't mean it's to powerful for the environment it's in already.

Oh, come on. This is common knowledge. The whole UU/BL tier debate thread is based off of this thought. Power=/=popularity in all cases. I could use Luvdisc to death, but would that make it good? No. Luvdisc sucks no matter what anyone says.
 
Right, and as such it is never used! Thus it's power is represented by it's popularity. Is this... am I speaking a different language?
 
It's an unsubstantial example since ubers are banned/not-banned, not usage. @_@
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For OU/BL, yeah, it's not a good example since the difference between those two tiers is different. But you mentioned differentiating UU from BL by popularity as well.

Right, and as such it is never used! Thus it's power is represented by it's popularity. Is this... am I speaking a different language?
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Err...take a look at Bidoof's popularity on that Shoddy ranking that Dragontamer posted. Then, to drive the point home, look at Bibarel's in comparison. People are weird like that.

But, really, popularity and power just aren't the same thing. In addition to that, like I stated before, just because something is good in a tier above it's usual one doesn't mean that it's too powerful for the tier it's in. If you want a different example...take Swellow. In UU, it's walled very badly by all the Rock/Steel types, but in OU it can take down most physical walls that don't resist normal. You could say something similar for Walrein or Cradily - thanks to the lack of auto-weather in UU, they're allowed there, but they're still good in OU because they significantly improve if in the right weather, which is much more easily available in OU.
 
Fishin said:
Err...take a look at Bidoof's popularity on that Shoddy ranking that Dragontamer posted. Then, to drive the point home, look at Bibarel's in comparison. People are weird like that.
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Actually that one is explained by the lack of a functioning trait for Bibarel ...
 
Pneuma said:
Let me posit a stupid idea from looking at that Shoddy usage chart:
The top 50 are OU. The next 100 are BL. The rest are UU.
Ubers are simply banned from play.

It's accurate to our current lists and is dynamic, just update it every few months.
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The problem with that is that (for the month of October anyway), Articuno, Moltres, and Entei are going to have a field day with Raticate, Luvdisc and Solrock.
 
Should we still be considering Empoleon for UU, because in the Shoddy Battle usage thread I believe it is just inside the cut off point that you suggest for OU?
 
So Armaldo is UU? Was it ever discussed? It can use Rock Polish or Swords Dance to good effect. It also got a good attack in Stone Edge, and of course it can Rapid Spin for utility(SR Weak nixes that though).

75/100/80 are pretty decent defenses, and it also has Knock Off to be annoying. STAB X-Scissor is also decent. It was BL last gen, why'd it get kicked down?
 
75/100/80 are pretty decent defenses, and it also has Knock Off to be annoying. STAB X-Scissor is also decent. It was BL last gen, why'd it get kicked down?
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Simple reason. Everything else around it changed without it. In Advance it was BL on the sole reasoning that 75/100/80 are amazing defenses coupled with 125 attack and the most you had to fear was Rock Slide and Surf.

In D/P however...
-It gained X-Scissor. Only 10 extra power over HP Bug with no effect.
-It gained Rock Polish. With base 45 speed, its as slow as DUSKNOIR and is still beaten after Polish by base 125 or Scarf. Even some perfect 120's if we talk in game.
-Could Rapid Spin, but its now weak to Stealth Rock.
-It gained Stone Edge...but it had Rock Blast which is potentially as strong or stronger.
-It gained Stone Edge weakness.
-It gained Stealth Rock. About the only really unique thing on top of Knock off.

Can UU have OU pokemon in it? I mean... Tentacruel is quite close to becoming OU afterall...
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Essentially those Pokemon that are both powerful AND regularly used. If they fall into BOTH criteria then essentially it makes them an important metagame threat. The OU rank exists as a means for people to know the most popular powerful threats.

Simply put you'll rarely see a Tentacruel being gamebreakingly powerful so even if it is regularly used its not a vital threat that needs countering. Just about any good physical attack will tear into it.

You see Froslass regularly but I'll be damned if anyone ever thinks. "Oh shi-its Froslass RUN!"
 
Dragontamer said:
Brings up an interesting paradox...

Can UU have OU pokemon in it? I mean... Tentacruel is quite close to becoming OU afterall... (and that is by the definition of OU)... popularity...
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If Tentacruel isn't too powerful for UU, then it will never be OU no matter how many people use it because there is also a leap in power as well as usage from UU to OU, because Tentacruel would have to pass through BL, which is based on power when upgrading UUs.
 
If the purpose of the OU tier is to have a handy list of what is and isn't popular... and the purpose of UU is to play with non-popular pokemon, then does that all popular pokemon should be banned from UU?

Or did I miss something? That is what my current understanding of UU and OU are...
 
Tentacruel is strong because it can lay down Toxic Spikes, absorb them too, and with Ice Beam and HP Electric counter Gyarados and Salamence. But in UU, what does it counter? There are plenty of Poison types who absorbs his Spikes. It can also Rapid Spin and Knock Off, but no together. It's UU, because it doesn't unbalance it.
 
Yeah, there appears to be some more misunderstanding on tiers even though I've spelled this out as clearly as possible at least twice in this thread.

If a Pokemon is used a lot it's OU, no questions asked (so long as it's not considered uber, which is purely on power). Yes, even if people started using Luvdisc, it would be OU. The purpose of OU is to have the most popular Pokemon in it. If a Pokemon isn't used that much AND is too strong for UU, it's BL. If a Pokemon isn't used that much and isn't too strong for UU, it's UU. For this reason, you cannot say "The xth most used Pokemon through the yth most used Pokemon are BL", because to be put into BL, you are saying something about their power.
 
Obi said:
If a Pokemon is used a lot it's OU, no questions asked (so long as it's not considered uber, which is purely on power).
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Well, thusly, by this reasoning, both Empoleon and Tentacruel are OU, no questions asked, if we go by that recent analysis. (just stating it again for clarity.)
 
I looked at the tier list and saw that crobat wasn't BL or OU so I'm guessing he's UU. Does he really deserve that though? He might have problems getting bravebird, hypnosis, and nastyplot on the same set, but he can work well as utillity, Special sweeper, Physical sweeper, or mixed. He's kindof unpredictable, even though his attackig stats are rather poor.
 
It was generally decided awhile ago that Crobat was BL, IIRC. In the most recent "update" (by that I mean not an official tier update, but the update for the discussion) he's listed as waiting to be put into BL along with several other things like Azumarill and Mamoswine.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=709336&postcount=912

If a Pokemon is used a lot it's OU, no questions asked (so long as it's not considered uber, which is purely on power). Yes, even if people started using Luvdisc, it would be OU. The purpose of OU is to have the most popular Pokemon in it. If a Pokemon isn't used that much AND is too strong for UU, it's BL. If a Pokemon isn't used that much and isn't too strong for UU, it's UU. For this reason, you cannot say "The xth most used Pokemon through the yth most used Pokemon are BL", because to be put into BL, you are saying something about their power.
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So something can become too strong for UU (OU pokes aren't allowed in UU) based on usage alone, right? Just wanted to clear this up beyond a shadow of a doubt since in the first post it very clearly says the difference between BL and UU is based on power alone and not at all based on usage. Of course, what we're talking about is OU, but if something is OU it can't be used in UU regardless of how strong it is, unless I'm missing something.
 
Sir Spanky said:
Using shoddy's list for anything other than a backup to a good argument is very silly imo - similar to dna in court cases.
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OU is purely determined by popularity and use, by definition. Not on power. What other kind of data is necessary to prove popularity and/or use?
 
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