Move Z-Move Discussion

[M BLADE]

Espeon @ Normalium Z
Ability: Magic Bounce

-Celebrate
-Stored Power
-Dazzling Gleam/HP Fire/Calm Mind
-HP Fire/Shadow Ball/Calm Mind/Morning Sun

Kinda simple. Celebrate, all stats go to +1 which powers up Stored Power to 120 BP in one shot. From there you can do lots of things: you can go 3 attacks, 2 attacks +CM, or mono attack with CM and Morning Sun. EVs can change depending of what set you choose; all of them must have max speed though.
3 attacks needs max SpA, 2 attacks+CM can go full SpA or HP, mono attack likes max Defense.

Celebrate sets on Eeveelutions can be really fun to play with (also, thank god Baton Pass multiple stat passing are banned now)

 

[Karxrida]

Espeon @ Normalium Z
Ability: Magic Bounce

-Celebrate
-Stored Power
-Dazzling Gleam/HP Fire/Calm Mind
-HP Fire/Shadow Ball/Calm Mind/Morning Sun

Kinda simple. Celebrate, all stats go to +1 which powers up Stored Power to 120 BP in one shot. From there you can do lots of things: you can go 3 attacks, 2 attacks +CM, or mono attack with CM and Morning Sun. EVs can change depending of what set you choose; all of them must have max speed though.
3 attacks needs max SpA, 2 attacks+CM can go full SpA or HP, mono attack likes max Defense.

Celebrate sets on Eeveelutions can be really fun to play with (also, thank god Baton Pass multiple stat passing are banned now)

I believe Celebrate is illegal with Magic Bounce because the Celebrate Eevee didn't have its Hidden Ability.

 

[M BLADE]

I believe Celebrate is illegal with Magic Bounce because the Celebrate Eevee didn't have its Hidden Ability.

So we're stuck with Synchronize. It means 3 attacks is the best option, unless you pair it with Tapu Fini.

 

[Siggu]

What about Leafeon? Grass is not exactly a good offensive typing but right now it's not crippling given Talonflame is nowhere to be seen, nor are other fast Flying-types, Leaf Guard is a decent ability, is the third fastest Eeveelution, has fine physical bulk and can take advantage of Grassy Terrain.

The other possibility is Jolteon, but how can it stand out over other Electric-types?

 

[M BLADE]

What about Leafeon? Grass is not exactly a good offensive typing but right now it's not crippling given Talonflame is nowhere to be seen, nor are other fast Flying-types, Leaf Guard is a decent ability, is the third fastest Eeveelution, has fine physical bulk and can take advantage of Grassy Terrain.

The other possibility is Jolteon, but how can it stand out over other Electric-types?

Leafeon has the crappiest movepool out of all the eeveelutions: it has Return and Leaf Blade, that's it. X-Scissor and Aerial Ace does no favors.
For Jolteon: Just use Porygon-Z with Conversion, much better.

Glaceon is doomed by low speed, but decent defenses and with A-Ninetales (or the Ice Cream/Abomasnow) help it can do some decent work spamming +1 Blizzards all over the place. In this case Snow Cloak can come in handy sometimes, and the defenses uninvested will go to 335/293, being somewhat tanky despite the crap defensive type. On lower tiers it can be decent.

 

[L0rdL33t]

readytolose: If it follows the trend, Breakneck Blitz from Hidden Power should be 120 base power. So no, it wouldn't be worth using.

He was using Hyper Beam for Breakneck Blitz. Hidden Power is fire.

In other news:
I found out in game that flinching WILL waste a Z-move. Think twice against using Z-moves against flinch haxers...

 

[Jibaku]

So we're stuck with Synchronize. It means 3 attacks is the best option, unless you pair it with Tapu Fini.

Not only that, Celebrate + Stored Power is also illegal

 

[FlameUser64]

He was using Hyper Beam for Breakneck Blitz. Hidden Power is fire.

In other news:
I found out in game that flinching WILL waste a Z-move. Think twice against using Z-moves against flinch haxers...

I was replying to this:

Also, I noticed you can turn Hidden Power into a Normal-type Z-move too. I couldn't find what base power it is but I can't imagine it's strong enough to be worth using.

Hidden Power always results in a 120 base power Breakneck Blitz, regardless of what type your Hidden Power is.

 

[L0rdL33t]

I was replying to this:


Hidden Power always results in a 120 base power Breakneck Blitz, regardless of what type your Hidden Power is.

Ah. Got it.

 

[elitesalamander]

Gengar with never ending nightmare has been pretty great so far 2ko or okos alot of pokes that would be checks other wise. if used correctly with destiny bond it can assure that gengar is gonna be taking at least 2 pokes down with it

 

[Jojobobo]

So I've been using Z-Splash Swift Swim Poliwrath with some success, which got me thinking. You know what would be better than Z-Splash? Z-Belly Drum:

Poliwrath @ Normalium Z / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Brick Break / Poison Jab

While the +3 boost offered by Z-Splash is good, the +6 offered by Belly Drum really puts this thing in another league - now able to OHKO all the defensive walls in the tier under rain. Waterfall hits so hard in the rain at +6 that even 100/100 resists like Manaphy are straight OHKOed without rocks, making it extremely easy to fire off without a second thought (it'll 2HKO almost anything that I've seen - such as Ferrothorn). Earthquake let's you OHKO Toxapex, who can be a consistent thorn in your side otherwise, and gives you a contact-less move for Aegislash. Brick Break is unfortunately Poliwrath's best Fighting STAB outside of the 50% accuracy Dynamic Punch and Submission which has recoil (why no Drain Punch GF, why?!?!), but it's still enough to get through Ferrothorn and also OHKO Rotom-W after rocks. Poison Jab can be used for extra coverage if you're really worried about Tapu Fini - but Brick Break tends to be the better choice.

The decision of Z-Belly Drum or Sitrus Belly Drum is really up to you. Z-Belly Drum full heals you before its use, meaning that no matter how much previous damage you have taken before you can always get it in (it can be used as a surprise when you seem low health). Conversely, Sitrus leaves you with 75% after its use - so is likely the better option. Still, the choice is there. Some calcs (they are in the rain, the calculator just isn't saying as such for whatever reason):

Hide

+6 252+ Atk Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 297-351 (98 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Poliwrath Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 410-484 (134.8 - 159.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 307-362 (109.2 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 393-463 (117.6 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 578-684 (164.2 - 194.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 233-274 (66.1 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 344-405 (100.8 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Obviously the Sitrus set could have just been run last gen, however I think the crucial differences why such a set never caught on are the Gale Wings Talonflame now doesn't really have priority any more (only when it's on 100% health) meaning you only have to worry about the rare M-Pinsir, Kabutops seemed like a much better option because it had it's own priority to deal with Talonflame (with priority also now not being as good as it was due to Tapu Lele) and Politoed didn't facilitate easy set up like slow U-turn Pelipper can. This set really is a force to be reckoned with, with incredible speed under rain and only really walled by the currently rare Water/Fairy mons and Unaware users like Quagsire.

 

[dragonmaster951753]

So, a completely left field question on Z-moves. What about event z moves? Will they be allowed? Because if they are, then jirachi with holding hands would be very very good. Z-holding hands gives jirachi +1 on every stat (then fails). This would be huge as regardless of any set you want to run, it becomes all around more deadlier. There are some random even moves like celebrate and etc, that before had no competitive use, but with z-moves, could be very dangerous set-ups.

 

[LightningLord2]

So, a completely left field question on Z-moves. What about event z moves? Will they be allowed? Because if they are, then jirachi with holding hands would be very very good. Z-holding hands gives jirachi +1 on every stat (then fails). This would be huge as regardless of any set you want to run, it becomes all around more deadlier. There are some random even moves like celebrate and etc, that before had no competitive use, but with z-moves, could be very dangerous set-ups.

Smogon never imposes bans based on a mon/move/etc. being event exclusive due to the bulk of its battles being on a simulator anyways. Still, Z-Hold Hands on Jirachi could go anywhere due to its type, stats and movepool easily allowing physical, special or defensive sets.

 

[Jojobobo]

So, a completely left field question on Z-moves. What about event z moves? Will they be allowed? Because if they are, then jirachi with holding hands would be very very good. Z-holding hands gives jirachi +1 on every stat (then fails). This would be huge as regardless of any set you want to run, it becomes all around more deadlier. There are some random even moves like celebrate and etc, that before had no competitive use, but with z-moves, could be very dangerous set-ups.

Also, I already covered that here. I thought it was pretty decent TBH.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Z-Hyper Beam continues to amaze me on nearly every set I run it with. Previously I talked about NP Z-Beam Thundurus. It's good. I've used it on a rain team, it's a huge dick, it lures so much stuff and is amazing at punching holes.

But I'm gonna talk about something I'm using on a sun team, because I am a schizophrenic who believes sun not only works, it's actually good (I just haven't gotten it down yet.)

Volcarona @ Normalium Z
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast / Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain
- Hyper Beam

Volcarona is a favorite of mine, but despite no longer being plagued by Talonflame, it still has a hard time in OU: Fire/Bug is really just bad as far as neutral coverage goes, and no matter what it runs, something can switch in pretty easily. This includes, but is not limited to: Tyranitar, Lati@s, Heatran, Toxapex, X-zard, Mantine, Y-zard, Gyarados, Nihilego, Alolan-Marowak, Chansey, etc. etc. This is on top of its unique and unfortunate status of being maximally weak to all entry hazards.

Basically, bulky dragons, fires, waters neutral to giga drain, and rocks all give it trouble, and in my experience each team is usually packing two or three of these. There's just nothing you can do to beat even half of these dudes at the same time.. except Z-Hyper Beam. Observe:

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 334-394 (100.9 - 119%)
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%)
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Charizard X: 382-450 (128.6 - 151.5%)

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Toxapex: 248-292 (81.5 - 96%)
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 191-225 (51 - 60.1%) <- still the toughest stop to Volc, but SR+some previous prior damage will allow you to get past. Furthermore, you can just boost further, but haze is a common move on Mantine.

Everything that Z-Hyper Beam can't really dick (Heatran, Tyranitar, Nihilego, Chansey) is Dugtrio bait, which is very convenient. Alolan Marowak can still check and is immune to Z-Hyper Beam and trapping, but must be somewhat healthy to take a +1 Fire Blast.

Of course, this is a one-time move, but I still think it's an improvement over running Hidden Power, as those are generally one-time as well (in that they're only good for one, maybe two pokemon on an opponent's team,) but this hits most of Volc's checks simultaneously instead of only a fraction (also you can be a mad man and use regular hyper beam, which will still chunk things pretty hard, but you have to be absolutely certain that you won't get screwed over by giving your opponent a free turn.)

 

[Siggu]

I was intrested in learning what pokemon can learn Z-Celebrate and how effective they'll be:

mons abilities and moves they keep or lose

Venusaur
Chlorophyll
Loses nothing significant

Charizard
Solar Power
Loses Ancient Power, Outrage, DD, Crunch

Blastoise
Rain Dish
Loses Aura Sphere

Pikachu
Static
Comes with Surf, Agility, Fly

Magikarp
Swift Swim
Loses nothing significant

Eevee
???
Loses Stored Power, Yawn

Vaporeon
Water Absorb
Loses Stored Power, Yawn

Joltoen
Volt Absorb
Loses Stored Power, Yawn

Flaroen
Flash Fire
Loses Stored Power, Yawn

Espeon
Synchronize
Loses Stored Power, Yawn

Umbreon
Synchronize
Loses Stored Power, Yawn

Leafoen
Leaf Guard
Loses Stored Power, Yawn

Glaceon
Snow Cloak
Loses Stored Power, Yawn

Sylveon
Cute Charm
Loses Stored Power, Yawn

Ho-Oh
Learns Sacred Fire, Brave Bird, Recover, Celebrate

Rayquaza
Learns Dragon Ascent, Draco Meteor

Mega Rayquaza looks like hell now, it can celebrate instead of DD and go downtown. Ho-Oh already comes with a compelte set lol (Learns Sacred Fire, Brave Bird, Recover, Celebrate) and Gyardos can run a BW-esque set with Celebrate also replacing DD and Jolteon loses nothing significant by not breeding and can also be useful. In the lower tiers Umberoen and Vapereon can be much harder to kill while Chlorophyll Venusaur can be a great sun sweeper, mixed.

Developer laziness prevents Rayquaza from Mega Evolving if it holds a Z-Crystal, so that's out of consideration.

Ho-Oh looks cool with that small set you've written, though.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm pretty sure we'll be discovering new Z-move set ups until the very end of this generation, lol

 

[Vengeance417]

I really don't understand the point of Mew's Z-move. It's a 185 BP move that can set up Psychic Terrain, but in a meta with the Tapus overriding terrain all of the time (especially a Tapu that can actually set up Psychic Terrain automatically in Tapu Lele), it's hardly worth running over other, more useful Z-moves and Mew sets tbh. Has anyone figured out a way to use this thing?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I really don't understand the point of Mew's Z-move. It's a 185 BP move that can set up Psychic Terrain, but in a meta with the Tapus overriding terrain all of the time (especially a Tapu that can actually set up Psychic Terrain automatically in Tapu Lele), it's hardly worth running over other, more useful Z-moves and Mew sets tbh. Has anyone figured out a way to use this thing?

Maybe as a general Tapu counter?

Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid or Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Sludge Wave
- Energy Ball
- Thunderbolt

Nuke something with Genesis Supernova, which powers up regular Psychic afterwords. If Tapu Not-Lele comes in to change the terrain, kill them with Sludge Wave. If the Tapu you killed was Koko or Bulu, the power of Thunderbolt or Energy Ball is boosted. Alternatively, if the Tapu is already at lowish health, you can kill it with Genesis Supernova and now your terrain is uncontested. If you don't want to go full anti-Tapu, Energy Ball and Thunderbolt can be replaced with Aura Sphere, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, or another of Mew's many attacks.

 

[LazyDex]

He was using Hyper Beam for Breakneck Blitz. Hidden Power is fire.

In other news:
I found out in game that flinching WILL waste a Z-move. Think twice against using Z-moves against flinch haxers...

Wait, seriously? Goddamnit! As if Fake-Out and flinch hax weren't already frustratingly annoying enough as is!

 

[Count Bleck]

Smogon never imposes bans based on a mon/move/etc. being event exclusive due to the bulk of its battles being on a simulator anyways. Still, Z-Hold Hands on Jirachi could go anywhere due to its type, stats and movepool easily allowing physical, special or defensive sets.

I think what he meant was, "Will they be added to Showdown?" Because as far as I know, they dont exist there.

 

[asterat]

One interesting application of Z moves is that you can get the insane power from a move with drawbacks without having the drawbacks - explosion, draco meteor, etc. For example on something like Landorus-T this gives both a 200 base power normal move (explosion Z move) and a base 250 power one, both of which are really strong especially if you invest in attack on some sort of offensive stealth rock set (sr, eq, explosion, knock off/u-turn.) The -2 special attack options go to 195 base power and this is pretty cool for the as well - that's 50% stronger than they are otherwise without the special attack drop. This basically means that wallbreaking power isn't sacrificed (you aren't forced out) after one attack. Users could be Latios, Deoxys (I know, this is uber,) Flygon , Dragonite, Kingdra, etc. On bulkier things not taking life orb is really nice and on glass cannons you aren't forced out. It's a pretty neat strategy, will have to test it out more to see if it really works or not. One issue is that it's not that much stronger than the Z move of an average attack - Dragon Pulse hits 160 power and Fire Blast hits 185, etc.

You could also try this out with V-Create or Dragon Ascent.

 

[zferolie]

So, no discussion on Eevee and its rediculous Z move? I was doing some calculations and this thing is scary

Eevee - Extreme Evoboost: +2 all stats, requires Last Resort and Eevium Z

First off, with a speed boosting nature and 100 EVs into speed, Eevee withn a plus 2 speed is just 2 points slower then a Speed boosting 252 EV speed Darkrai. And a 252 EV'd Eevee is only slower then a Deoxy's Speed. I don;t think you need to put in more then 2

Second, here are the attacks it can take after a +2 defense boost with max HP EV's, and even with a - defense nature

252+ Atk Abomasnow-Mega Wood Hammer vs. +2 252 HP / 0- Def Eevee: 211-249 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 125-148 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa U-turn vs. +2 252 HP / 0- Def Eevee: 165-195 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 183-216 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And here is some of the damage it returns back

+2 156 Atk Adaptability Eevee Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 262-310 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+2 156 Atk Adaptability Eevee Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bewear: 380-448 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+2 0 SpA Eevee Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 242-286 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Eevee @ Eevium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 100 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Last Resort
- Stored Power
- Protect/Substitute/Yawn
- Wish/Quick Attack/Return

most of the time last resort will be all the damage you need, but you do need to use your other moves too. Stored power effectivly has 220 BP after the boost. Protect is always good, but a true annoying set could be sub. Yawn can force switchs as well. Wish works well with protect, Quick attack for some strong priority, and Return just for solid damage

 

[Siggu]

The problem I see with Eevee is that it needs to find breather room to Extreme Evoboost.

Unless your name isn't, say, Chansey or Toxapex, Eevee immediately gets in the KO range for priority in the turn it sets up.

I've seen that there has been some success with Eevee in the VGC regionals, but then again, you have redirection to help Eevee set up safely.

 

[zferolie]

The problem I see with Eevee is that it needs to find breather room to Extreme Evoboost.

Unless your name isn't, say, Chansey or Toxapex, Eevee immediately gets in the KO range for priority in the turn it sets up.

I've seen that there has been some success with Eevee in the VGC regionals, but then again, you have redirection to help Eevee set up safely.

There are already VGC tournies? thats surprising.

But yeah I see it struggling in solos unless you bring it out late when most pokemon are already weak or most threats are gone. In doubles though I see a lot of redirection helping it (Follow me and Spot light specificly)