Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[Gross Sweep]

Magearna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Aura Sphere
Shout out to Dr. Phd. BJ for turning me on to this set

Gen7 1v1 has just begun and already a few new mons are starting to distinguish themselves, especially Magearna. This mon has enough bulk to take pretty much any hit that isn't an extremely powerful super effective move. For example flare blitz from Zard-x nets a KO, but EQ from an offensive Gyarados doesn't. If this crazy bulk weren't enough this thing also hits incredibly hard with a choice specs. Stab fleur cannon is incredibly powerful, basically if you don't resist you don't live - making this little bunny extremely powerful. When this is combined with stab flash cannon, and coverage of choice (just depends with what's being run on the ladder - I like to start with thunderbolt and aura sphere, but you honestly don't click your coverage moves very often) you become an almost unstoppable force. I also want to point out the speed I'm running is exceedingly high, but i HATE speed ties almost as much as i hate Pyukumuku. So with all the new mons introduced this gen I would honestly have to say Magearna is my favorite to be the next S ranked mon.​

 

[Elo Bandit]

Magearna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Aura Sphere
Shout out to Dr. Phd. BJ for turning me on to this set

Gen7 1v1 has just begun and already a few new mons are starting to distinguish themselves, especially Magearna. This mon has enough bulk to take pretty much any hit that isn't an extremely powerful super effective move. For example flare blitz from Zard-x nets a KO, but EQ from an offensive Gyarados doesn't. If this crazy bulk weren't enough this thing also hits incredibly hard with a choice specs. Stab fleur cannon is incredibly powerful, basically if you don't resist you don't live - making this little bunny extremely powerful. When this is combined with stab flash cannon, and coverage of choice (just depends with what's being run on the ladder - I like to start with thunderbolt and aura sphere, but you honestly don't click your coverage moves very often) you become an almost unstoppable force. I also want to point out the speed I'm running is exceedingly high, but i HATE speed ties almost as much as i hate Pyukumuku. So with all the new mons introduced this gen I would honestly have to say Magearna is my favorite to be the next S ranked mon.​

I also really love this thing, it was the first pokemon I ever tried in gen7 1v1. I personally like using a spread of 248 HP / 64 Def / 184 SpA / 12 SpE with a Modest nature in order to survive a +1 Dragonite EQ (since everyone's running DD Dragonium Z Dragonite), as well as to outspeed 8 SpE Magearnas. I'll probably switch to your spread or something similar if Z stones get banned. I use the same coverage moves, though I think Energy Ball is also a good option. I'm not 100% sold that this thing is S rank, but it's definitely gonna take the metagame by storm. I'd give it an A rank, but that's just one man's opinion.

Also Pyukumuku best mon 2016 pls no fix

 

[Gross Sweep]

I also really love this thing, it was the first pokemon I ever tried in gen7 1v1. I personally like using a spread of 248 HP / 64 Def / 184 SpA / 12 SpE with a Modest nature in order to survive a +1 Dragonite EQ (since everyone's running DD Dragonium Z Dragonite), as well as to outspeed 8 SpE Magearnas. I'll probably switch to your spread or something similar if Z stones get banned. I use the same coverage moves, though I think Energy Ball is also a good option. I'm not 100% sold that this thing is S rank, but it's definitely gonna take the metagame by storm. I'd give it an A rank, but that's just one man's opinion.

Also Pyukumuku best mon 2016 pls no fix

I noticed you mentioned your set was for Dnite, but I don't really think that's needed.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 348-411 (90.1 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

So you have a chance to KO, and if they don't run max hp (which I personally don't) you have a really good chance. Also when thinking about what Dnite can do back...

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 244-288 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can't KO back at +1. So when that's taken into account I don't think removing any special attack for defense is warranted.

Yeah I agree it might end up in the A rank after first round of bans, I see it in a similar role to specs meloetta.

 

[Elo Bandit]

I noticed you mentioned your set was for Dnite, but I don't really think that's needed.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 348-411 (90.1 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

So you have a chance to KO, and if they don't run max hp (which I personally don't) you have a really good chance. Also when thinking about what Dnite can do back...

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 244-288 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can't KO back at +1. So when that's taken into account I don't think removing any special attack for defense is warranted.

Yeah I agree it might end up in the A rank after first round of bans, I see it in a similar role to specs meloetta.

I think you might have calc'd that wrong. I'm getting:

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 326-384 (91.3 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

and

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Magearna: 306-362 (84.2 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This way, you Fleur once on the DD then tank an EQ and KO with a second Fleur. It's really not THAT important of a benchmark and you're fine to use whatever EV spread you like. Like I said, if Z stones get banned and Banded Dnite becomes the standard again, I'll probably just use HP/SpA with speed creep.

 

[DEG]

Perish Song is now banned.
Z-Moves are still in discussion.

Perish Song did the same thing it did last generation, same Pokemon and methods were used to get easy wins. The only check it got was Z-moves from specific Pokemon such as Tapu Koko. Meanwhile Perish Song got better with new additions such as Alolan Marowak while Meloetta, Lapras and Azumarill were as still bulky and has good typing to make perfect use of Perish Song. Furthermore Meloetta and Azumarill has access to Z moves that heal them back to full HP.

Z-Moves: We dont want to quickban them yet, they are something new, we are going to see of people are able to adapt to them. Meanwhile please keep on discussing them. I'm also going to ask one question: Which Z-Stones do you think are the most broken, (Electrium-Z, Steelium-Z etc...) and why?

 

[Kentari]

Electrium Z on Tapu Koko and Rockium Z on Crustle are by far the best examples of Z-move users I have seen. Specifically,

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunder
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Hidden Power [Ice]/Grass Knot/Dazzling Gleam/Nature's Madness/Hidden Power [Fire]

Crustle @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe or 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Wrecker
- Earthquake/Counter
- X-Scissor
- Shell Smash

Snorlax (Snorlium), Tapu Lele (Psychium), Necrozma (Psychium), Mimikyu (Ghostium, Fairium), and Dragonite (Dragonium) are the pokemon I have also seen have success with Z-moves. I've had quite a bit less success with these than the other two though. I tried for quite a while to make Dragonite work. There are just so many counters to it in the meta.

A few other things:

Mega-Gyarados is incredibly good. Even better than it was in Gen 6, where it was already the best pokemon.

Pyumuku, if it isn't going to be fixed soon, should be banned.

 

[aphrion]

I'm actually not sure about a Pyukumuku ban. Any competent special attacker with Substitute takes care of the exploding cuke pretty easily - the problem as I see it is that you have to prepare that on your team specifically to deal with him, but there are plenty of viable strats that can pull their weight outside of Pyukumuku.
Also, been playing around with Magnezone, he's still pretty frickin' good:

Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Hyper Beam

I won't claim to be particularly good at playing this meta, but so far as I've been using it, this set is extremely competent at taking out threats. Dragonite and Necrozma shrug him off, but so far everything else has to specifically account for this guy to take him out. Even other Magnezones with insufficient bulk have trouble with T-bolt spam. I'm actually about to try out HP Ice, I ran Tri-Attack before but never actually used it. If anyone wants to give me feedback that'd be most welcome.
And yes, I do know what Magnezone was like in the previous gen, I'm just recapping for the benefit of the new gen.

 

[Uselesscrab]

I'm actually not sure about a Pyukumuku ban. Any competent special attacker with Substitute takes care of the exploding cuke pretty easily - the problem as I see it is that you have to prepare that on your team specifically to deal with him, but there are plenty of viable strats that can pull their weight outside of Pyukumuku.
Also, been playing around with Magnezone, he's still pretty frickin' good:

Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Hyper Beam

I won't claim to be particularly good at playing this meta, but so far as I've been using it, this set is extremely competent at taking out threats. Dragonite and Necrozma shrug him off, but so far everything else has to specifically account for this guy to take him out. Even other Magnezones with insufficient bulk have trouble with T-bolt spam. I'm actually about to try out HP Ice, I ran Tri-Attack before but never actually used it. If anyon wants to give me feedback that'd be most welcome.
And yes, I do know what Magnezone was like in the previous gen, I'm just recapping for the benefit of the new gen.

I have been running a similar set alongside Bewear and it's been working exceptionally well. It deals with many of the Psychic- and Fairy-types that trouble Bewear, such as Tapu Lele. I would consider running Hidden Power Fire as well; it's helped me catch a bunch of Kartana, Scizor, and opposing Magnezone off guard.

Anyway, I'm here to talk about a Pokemon that definitely benefited from the generation shift:

Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 52 HP / 240 Atk / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Giga Impact
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack

• No longer does this have to run Protect to serve as a check to the Charizards. Rather, it can Giga Impact right away and OHKO non-bulky variants.
• It also defeats Mega Gyarados, which has become incredibly common on the ladder recently, for whatever reason, by Swords Dancing and OHKOing with +1 Giga Impact. Only Stone Edge variants (lol) can beat it.
• One Pokemon that it does surprisingly well against is Tapu Lele. Thanks to the extra HP EVs (which come from only using enough Speed to outspeed base 100s and enough Attack to KO Kyurem-B with Close Combat + Quick Attack), it is only KO'd by Scarf Tapu Lele's Psychic 6.3% of the time, and easily defeats DEG's Tapu Lele.
• It's a bit shakier against Kyurem-B. It wins against Scarf Kyurem-B without Ice Beam easily by clicking Close Combat and then Quick Attack, as I mentioned, and I was very frugal with my EVs so I could reduce its chance of being knocked out by Ice Beam to 25%.

These are just a few threats it can handle; it also defeats Mega Venusaur, Kartana (how did I forget the existence of Giga Impact), Ferrothorn, Whimsicott, Tapu Bulu, Specs Porygon-Z, Smeargle, Pheromosa, Aggron and Sturdy FEAR (thanks to Mold Breaker Close Combat), a variety of Fighting-types, and more.

Earthquake is also an option but I've been enjoying Close Combat recently, for whatever reason. It's not like you're killing Aegislash anyway.

Here's a fun, bad set that I probably wouldn't use on the high ladder but I've enjoyed enough that I'm going to post it:

gimmick

Raichu-Alola @ Aloraichium Z
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Electric Terrain
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Substitute

Stoked Sparksurfer is a good and skillful 175 BP Electric-type move that also paralyzes. Its sheer power allows this thing (which is surprisingly fast) to beat relevant Water- and Flying-types (besides max HP Mega Gyarados, which lives less than half of the time and is less common these days anyway. Besides, who needs skill when you can paralyze your foes?). If you can live a hit from a Scarf user (doubtful) you can Electric Terrain, outspeed them thanks to Surge Surfer, and smack them with a ~263 BP STAB. Psychic is just useful because there are a lot of Fighting-types in the tier and a few Poison-types. Substitute allows you to fish for parahax, beat status users (I HATE PYUKUMUKU AND WISH IT WOULD GO AWAY), annoy Hyper Beam/Giga Impact/Prismatic Laser/any offensive Z-move users, and make things drain their HP with recoil, which, believe it or not, has been occasionally useful. There's also a weirdly useful Steel resistance which can force Magearna, for instance, to use Fleur Cannon, which you can Sub against. I don't really feel I can do this justice on my own but here are some replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-490735081 PYUKUMUKU LOSES
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-490736713 Surfing on the opponent's surges
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-491685544 The best way to beat Charizards: 175 BP Nuzzle
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-491698553 Of course, it helps when they confuse themselves
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-491700457 Psychic STAB

So yeah, this is a thing. Use it at your own risk. Pair it with something that can beat Kyurem-B and generally take attacks, because Alolan Raichu cannot.

edit: that looks like a good ev spread @ below, will have to try it

 

[wroth]

Why is species clause back in effect? Reading threads like this and this the only justification that really applies to 1v1 is the unpredictability; i.e. at preview, against three of the same mon you can't tell what set they are running and have to make a blind guess. But if they only use one of that species (that is, a one-pokemon team), you are in the exact same situation at preview, since this is 1v1. If you are the one using multiple of the same species, prediction is easier for you, but only because you can easily predict that they will send out the mon that probably counters every pokemon on your team. All in all, species clause does not prevent anything broken, but is still a pointless hindrance on teambuilding.

tl;dr remove species clause

 

[Elo Bandit]

I have been running a similar set alongside Bewear and it's been working exceptionally well. It deals with many of the Psychic- and Fairy-types that trouble Bewear, such as Tapu Lele. I would consider running Hidden Power Fire as well; it's helped me catch a bunch of Kartana, Scizor, and opposing Magnezone off guard.

Anyway, I'm here to talk about a Pokemon that definitely benefited from the generation shift:

Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 52 HP / 240 Atk / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Giga Impact
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack

• No longer does this have to run Protect to serve as a check to the Charizards. Rather, it can Giga Impact right away and OHKO non-bulky variants.
• It also defeats Mega Gyarados, which has become incredibly common on the ladder recently, for whatever reason, by Swords Dancing and OHKOing with +1 Giga Impact. Only Stone Edge variants (lol) can beat it.
• One Pokemon that it does surprisingly well against is Tapu Lele. Thanks to the extra HP EVs (which come from only using enough Speed to outspeed base 100s and enough Attack to KO Kyurem-B with Close Combat + Quick Attack), it is only KO'd by Scarf Tapu Lele's Psychic 6.3% of the time, and easily defeats DEG's Tapu Lele.
• It's a bit shakier against Kyurem-B. It wins against Scarf Kyurem-B without Ice Beam easily by clicking Close Combat and then Quick Attack, as I mentioned, and I was very frugal with my EVs so I could reduce its chance of being knocked out by Ice Beam to 25%.

These are just a few threats it can handle; it also defeats Mega Venusaur, Kartana, Ferrothorn, Whimsicott, Tapu Bulu, Specs Porygon-Z, Smeargle, Pheromosa, Aggron and Sturdy FEAR (thanks to Mold Breaker Close Combat), a variety of Fighting-types, and more.

Earthquake is also an option but I've been enjoying Close Combat recently, for whatever reason. It's not like you're killing Aegislash anyway.

[/hide]

Ooh, Pinsir does look extremely attractive this gen. I know you put a lot of thought into the EVs, but take a look at this spread:

Pinsir-Mega @ Pinsirite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 8 HP / 208 Atk / 68 SpD / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Giga Impact
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 8 HP / 68 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 246-289 (90.1 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 8 HP / 68 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 230-272 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Pinsir-Mega: 228-270 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Plus, it outspeeds Lando-I and OHKOs with Giga Impact. It still beats Gyara and everything you mentioned above, except Kartana which you kind of lose to anyway:
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Giga Impact vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Pinsir-Mega: 269-317 (94.7 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
vs
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Giga Impact vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Pinsir-Mega: 269-317 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

So you weaken your matchup a little bit against Kartana, but always beat Lando-I, standard KyuB and Timid Tapu Lele, as well as drastically improving your matchup vs Modest Tapu Lele.

 

[fsk]

Great to see that Perish song is gone now!
----

I'm actually not sure about a Pyukumuku ban. Any competent special attacker with Substitute takes care of the exploding cuke pretty easily

Just reminding you that Innards Out ignores sub, as you takes the damage directly
So first of all, the winning/losing condition concerning iron barbs/rough skins/ Innards Out changes should be fix. If it is fixed, it will be [The bug is fixed so it is] likely that Pyukumuku should not be a problem, as 70% of the aids of this mon comes from the bug of the tie breaker on the sim.
----

It seems to me that the problem of Z-moves is that they change certain matchups surprisingly, and introduce a lot more unpredictability. But for now, I haven't played enough games to really figure out which specific one is broken; I'd say they are just hard to prepare for when teambuilding, but not supporting outright banning it. More games needed i guess.

 

[Uselesscrab]

Just reminding you that Innards Out ignores sub, as you takes the damage directly
So first of all, the winning/losing condition concerning iron barbs/rough skins/ Innards Out changes should be fix. If it is fixed, it will be likely that Pyukumuku should not be a problem, as 70% of the aids of this mon comes from the bug of the tie breaker on the sim.

It's okay. We can all rest easy now.

 

[aphrion]

Great to see that Perish song is gone now!
----



Just reminding you that Innards Out ignores sub, as you takes the damage directly
So first of all, the winning/losing condition concerning iron barbs/rough skins/ Innards Out changes should be fix. If it is fixed, it will be [The bug is fixed so it is] likely that Pyukumuku should not be a problem, as 70% of the aids of this mon comes from the bug of the tie breaker on the sim.
----

It seems to me that the problem of Z-moves is that they change certain matchups surprisingly, and introduce a lot more unpredictability. But for now, I haven't played enough games to really figure out which specific one is broken; I'd say they are just hard to prepare for when teambuilding, but not supporting outright banning it. More games needed i guess.

I know, it's just protection against Toxic+Pain Split (which were half of the cancer named Pyukumuku). Guess it's kinda irrelevant now, though.

 

[Elo Bandit]

It's okay. We can all rest easy now.

Rest
In
Pyukumuku

----

As for Z moves, I'd like to look at Tapu Koko, Necrozma, Dragonite, and Porygon Z.


Tapu Koko (Timid): 289 special attack, 1.5x boost from Electric Terrain, base 185 Gigavolt Havoc with perfect accuracy.
Let's compare that to the premier electric type of the tier, Specs Magnezone (Modest): 394 spA, 1.5x boost from Specs, base 90 Thunderbolt with perfect accuracy.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 345-406 (137.4 - 161.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 346-408 (137.8 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Electrium Z Tapu Koko is almost exactly on par with Magnezone. Now, let's consider the other differences between the two. Tapu Koko has speed (base 130), whereas Zone has Sturdy. This means both pokemon generally get to fire off one hit. Both pokemon have secondary STAB in Flash Cannon and Dazzling Gleam. Both often run HP Fire or Ice. Magnezone's Flash Cannon hits considerably harder than Koko's Gleam, but Tapu Koko has something Magnezone doesn't: the freedom to switch moves. Tapu Koko can run Taunt, Sub, Nature's Madness, etc. to deal with situations that Koko would otherwise find unfavorable.

Overall, these two electric types are almost exactly even in terms of viability. Tapu Koko alone is not powerful enough to warrant a ban on Z moves.


Necrozma is a unique case since he's a bulky psychic type that can set up with Calm Mind and Moonlight before firing off a 200 base power Shattered Psyche.
There aren't many offensive Psychic types in 1v1, but we can compare it to Specs Meloetta, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Zam who all play a somewhat similar role.

252+ SpA Necrozma Shattered Psyche vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 501-591 (199.6 - 235.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Necrozma Shattered Psyche vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 753-886 (300 - 352.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 340-402 (135.4 - 160.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 274-324 (109.1 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 288-339 (114.7 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Necrozma blows every other Psychic move in the tier out of the water. Unboosted Shattered Psyche does nearly 1.5x that of Modest Specs Meloetta's Psychic. If you can get a CM off first (and you're usually able to do so), Shattered Psyche obliterates everything that isn't a Dark type.

This is crazy enough damage for a z move ban to be considered, but by itself isn't broken. Necrozma can be built around if it is the only Z move user.


Dragonite has always been an A tier mon. It sometimes runs DD+Lum/WP, but most Dragonite use Choice Band. How much better is DD Dragonium Z Dnite?

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eevee: 571-673 (227.4 - 268.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Devastating Drake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eevee: 603-711 (240.2 - 283.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Devastating Drake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eevee: 904-1065 (360.1 - 424.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Without boosting, Dragonium Z already hits significantly harder than Choice Band. With a single DD (which Dnite can almost always get off due to Multiscale), you deal nearly twice the damage of banded Dnite, without having to lock yourself into a move. That means you can run coverage / Espeed to pick off Sturdy mons and the like. Frankly, Dragonium Z is the only way to run Dnite in the current meta, unless you're so afraid of status that you need to run Lum DD.

This is another huge point in favor of banning Z moves. Pokemon that were already really good become waaay better.


I'm not going to run any calcs on Porygon Z, because I don't have to. The fact that Porygon Z can viably run:

-Timid Scarf
-Fast Modest Scarf
-Defensive Modest Scarf
-Fast Timid Specs
-Defensive Modest Specs
-Fast Custap Berry
-Defensive Custap Berry
-Normalium Z Hyper Beam (200 BP, no recharge)
-Normalium Z Conversion
-Ghostium Z Conversion
-Icium Z Conversion
-Electrium Z Conversion

ALL with their own checks and counters, put's Mega Gyarados's famous "versatility" to shame, especially when you consider the absurd amount of move choices Pory has in addition to it's signature Hyper Beam: Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, Psychic/Psyshock, Uproar, Trick, and (non-Z) Conversion.

Porygon Z has easily become the most difficult pokemon to prepare for in the entire tier of 1v1. It leads the list of pokemon that simply have too many god damn sets they can use to startling effectiveness, thanks to the introduction of Z moves. This is the real issue with Z stones - the unpredictability of movesets. All of a sudden we are seeing Crustle, Greninja, Garchomp, and many others deal way too much damage out of nowhere, with zero side effects (no recoil, no recharge, no move locking). They even break through Protect. Z Stones make already viable pokemon god-tier, and let them obliterate the pokemon that can't properly utilize these unpredictable and overpowered moves.

-----

BAN Z STONES. (but stop using Tapu Koko as a reason, he's actually pretty balanced)

 

[Kentari]

Just because a pokemon can do a lot of damage doesn't make it OP. Just because a pokemon is versatile, doesn't make it OP.

A broken Pokemon is a Pokemon that doesn't have a lot of checks and counters.

Dragonite has a lot of checks and counters. Necrozma has a lot of checks and counters. I think all the Z-move users have plenty of checks and counters. Importantly, their checks and counters are common pokemon that are already good in 1v1. You don't have to tailor your team towards beating them. It probably beats them incidentally because you already have their counters on your team.

Let me use Dragonite as an example.

Dragonite @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Fire Punch/Earthquake/Iron Head/etc.

All of these common pokemon check or counter Dragonium-Z Dragonite.

Mega-Gyarados
Kyurem-B
Garchomp
Specs Genesect (68.8% of the time if Dragonite has Fire Punch)
Mega-Metagross
Crustle (93.8% of the time if Dragonite doesn't have Extreme Speed)
Tapu Lele
Celesteela
Magearna
Kartana (if Dragonite doesn't have Fire Punch)
Tapu Koko (if Dragonite doesn't have Earthquake and Tapu Koko has hp ice)
Mega-Charizard-X (if Charizard has Will-o-Wisp and is defensively invested)
Whimsicott
Greninja
Mimikyu
Rhyperior
Ferrothorn (if Dragonite doesn't have Fire Punch)
Mega-Slowbro


A pokemon's counters don't really change that much when they have Z-moves. Plus, they even sometimes add new checks. Looking at how much damage a pokemon can do is simply the wrong way to look at things, I think. Choice band Slaking's Giga Impact does as much damage to Eevee as a +1 Dragonite Devastating Drake. That doesn't make it OP. It has things that hold it back. Similiarly, Dragonite, and the other Z-move users have things that hold them back.

I add this as an aside: Porygon-Z may be versatile, but it was already versatile. I don't know if Z-moves pushed it over the edge. I'll reserve judgement on it. I haven't seen anyone tearing up the ladder with it.

We should not ban Z-moves just because you can do a lot of damage with them. We should ban them because the pokemon who use them are broken on the ladder. I don't believe any of the pokemon that use Z-moves are broken, so I don't think we should ban Z-moves.

 

[Elo Bandit]

Just because a pokemon can do a lot of damage doesn't make it OP. Just because a pokemon is versatile, doesn't make it OP.

A broken Pokemon is a Pokemon that doesn't have a lot of checks and counters.

Dragonite has a lot of checks and counters. Necrozma has a lot of checks and counters. I think all the Z-move users have plenty of checks and counters. Importantly, their checks and counters are common pokemon that are already good in 1v1. You don't have to tailor your team towards beating them. It probably beats them incidentally because you already have their counters on your team.

Let me use Dragonite as an example.

Dragonite @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Fire Punch/Earthquake/Iron Head/etc.

All of these common pokemon check or counter Dragonium-Z Dragonite.

Mega-Gyarados
Kyurem-B
Garchomp
Specs Genesect (68.8% of the time if Dragonite has Fire Punch)
Mega-Metagross
Crustle (93.8% of the time)
Tapu Lele
Celesteela
Magearna
Kartana
Tapu Koko (if Dragonite doesn't have Earthquake and Tapu Koko has hp ice)
Mega-Charizard-X (if Charizard has Will-o-Wisp)
Whimsicott
Greninja
Mimikyu
Rhyperior
Ferrothorn
Golem (if Rock Blast hits at least 3 times or it runs Stone Edge/Rock Wrecker and doesn't miss).

A pokemon's counters don't really change that much when they have Z-moves. Plus, they even sometimes add new checks...

Except that bulky Dragonite also exists (bulk values used in examples are benchmarks for Dnite users that want to counter these threats).

He can go toe to toe with M-Gyara:
252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Outrage vs. 184 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 312-368 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 342-404 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Devastating Drake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados-Mega: 322-381 (97.2 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Devastating Drake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gyarados-Mega: 484-570 (122.8 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And BandChomp:
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 306-361 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And Modest Specs Genesect:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Genesect Ice Beam vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 306-360 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 384-456 (135.6 - 161.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And Crustle:
252+ Atk Crustle Rock Wrecker vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 243-286 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Crustle Continental Crush vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 322-381 (84.2 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And Modest Tapu Lele (how is this a counter?) eh ok:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 216-256 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (200BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 179-211 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 255-301 (78.9 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 124-147 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO EDIT: Psychic Terrain exists

And Celesteela:
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 194-230 (48.7 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

And Magearna (usually):
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 349-412 (90.4 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Magearna: 206-244 (56.7 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Really not sure why you put Kartana:
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 180-212 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 292-348 (112.7 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Koko barely counts since EQ is so popular. Also,
252 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 106-126 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO

ZardX isn't a great counter either:
(Will-O and DD)
-1 252+ Atk Dragonite Devastating Drake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 283-334 (95.2 - 112.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Nor is Ferrothorn:
252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 220-260 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


The point is, Dragonite can simply run different moves and different values in speed and bulk in order to obliterate most of his checks and counters. Sure, he's still gonna get smashed by a handful of pokemon that can KO with a powerful Ice or multi-hit SE move, or avoid his main damage with their Fairy typing. There will always be some pokemon that 100% beat others. The problem is, with some set variations there simply aren't enough. You never know what Dragonite your opponent might be using, you don't know his coverage or his HP investment. This argument holds true for other Z move abusers, though I really don't wanna do more calcs right now.

---

Looking at how much damage a pokemon can do is simply the wrong way to look at things, I think. Choice band Slaking's Giga Impact does as much damage to Eevee as a +1 Dragonite Devastating Drake. That doesn't make it OP. It has things that hold it back. Similiarly, Dragonite, and the other Z-move users have things that hold them back.

I add this as an aside: Porygon-Z may be versatile, but it was already versatile. I don't know if Z-moves pushed it over the edge. I'll reserve judgement on it. I haven't seen anyone tearing up the ladder with it.

We should not ban Z-moves just because you can do a lot of damage with them. We should ban them because the pokemon who use them are broken on the ladder. I don't believe any of the pokemon that use Z-moves are broken, so I don't think we should ban Z-moves.

I'm sticking with my original stance on PorygonZ. His already monstrous number of viable sets DOUBLED with Z stones. You simply cannot reasonably prepare for all of them.

You say we shouldn't ban moves because they do a lot of damage. How much is too much? If a move does a million damage and one shots everything, that's too much. If you can KO 75% of the metagame, is that too much? It's all about finding the line. My view is that Z moves cross that line.

Also, you bring up Slaking, which I think is an excellent comparison. It's great because Slaking has a real drawback to using his power - he can only attack every other turn. He loses to Sturdy mons, Protecters, fast Subs, Endure, etc. If a pokemon lives Slaking's hit, they can kill him while he's helpless next turn. Z move users have absolutely zero drawbacks or risk attached to their raw power (which, by the way, is still higher).

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Devastating Drake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eevee: 904-1065 (360.1 - 424.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eevee: 816-961 (325 - 382.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Z moves have no downsides. They give more damage than a choice item, without having to lock into a move. They let too many mons run too many viable sets, and they hit harder than anything else in the tier. I still hold the position that they need to see a ban.

 

[Beesafree]

Hi guys, my first ever post in the forums. Let me first chime in on the Z-moves and Psong

I think Z-Moves SHOULD NOT be banned
I think Perish Song SHOULD be banned

i really enjoy the 1v1 meta, and i hope to see how the meta will evolve for the rest of gen 7. Before i go let me post a set i came up with for Type: Null that has been giving me decent success. I'm thinking about switching him out, but maybe others have ideas?

Type: Null @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
EVS: 252 HP / 252 SDEF / 4 ATK
Careful Nature
- Confide
- Toxic
- Iron Head / Return
- Rest

Rather a niche set more than others, but with eviolite it's base defenses become a massive 95/142/142. This set counters Magearna, Charizard-Y, Genesect, Greninja, Porygon-Z, other special attackers. it struggles against Physical attackers, Charizard-X, Tapu Koko, Sableye, Regice, Whimsicott, other awkward tanky sets. the main idea with this set is to go in on an obvious special attacking team, confide a bunch, then go to sleep and wait for them to die to toxic. if it happens to go in on a set that isn't special, toxic first, and hope it's massive defenses can let it survive. Return is the most damage but Rock / Steel / Ghost types aren't rare, I find Iron Head to be the best choice. In the end, if this pokemon got any more than it already does (Charm, Noble Roar, Earthquake, Recover) it would be a god, but with only confide it is rather mild.

 

[lost heros]

Alright since I just peaked on the ladder last night (totally not a brag), I'd like to write my input on Z-moves.

If you don't want to read it, I'll leave the TLDR at the top.
DO NOT BAN Z-MOVES. BAN BROKEN POKEMON.

As I see the meta right now there are significantly more viable Pokémon right now then there were in the last generation, and that's probably because Z-moves allow weaker Pokémon to have access to strong moves. Just look at Mimikyu, it's not strong. It really has two-ish sets that changes pretty much whether or not it uses Z-Play Rough or Z-Shadow Claw. Kartana is demolished by Scarf Special Attackers. Tapu Koko isn't as powerful as it's made out to be. Necrozma is more powerful with a Specs Prismatic Laser for that turn one OHKO or you can Calm Mind + Leftovers for bulk instead.

If Dragonite is too powerful with Multiscale + Dragon Dance + Devestating Drake then it's obviously Dragonite is the problem. If Porygon-Z is too powerful with it's extra Z-conversion set (why would you use Z-hyper beam over Specs.) then it should be banned.

If we ban Z-moves we're going to have a worse situation than we had last generation. Gyarados, Defensive Zard and some other things are just going to overpower the meta and we'll be left with a very undiverse meta.

 

[Kentari]

I'll acknowledge my mistakes from my other post real quick.

1. Kartana and Ferrothorn lose to Dragonite with Fire Punch.
2. Tapu Lele loses 30% of the time if it has no bulk and Dragonite has Iron Head.

These are 100% my bad. I'll change them.

I'd like to rebut a few points, however.

1. It is, in my opinion, bad to run Will-o-Wisp on a Mega-Charizard-X with no defensive investment. You're right, though, a Charizard with no defenses is not a Dragonite counter anymore. If your Charizard counters Scarf Kyurem, it will also counter Dragonite, however.
2. You can't use Extreme Speed under Psychic Terrain.
3. Z-move Crustle is the only show in town. Showing the calc for non-Choice Band Rock Wrecker is sort of pointless. Crustle could also have Counter.
4. Celesteela beats Dragonite even if it has Fire Punch.
5. Mega-Gyarados still probably isn't losing to Dragonite. If you outspeed them, they're bulky and probably tank the hit, and if you don't, they just kill you with +1 Outrage.

Koko barely counts since EQ is so popular.

If Earthquake is so popular, how are we beating all these pokemon that you need specifically Fire Punch for? Are we not running Extremespeed? If you don't run Extremespeed, a whole new slew of pokemon become counters. Crustle immediately comes to mind. In fact, that really gets to the crux of my argument.

Of course, you can counter certain pokemon if you run specific EV spreads and carry certain moves that allow you to counter them. I'm not disputing that at all. But you can't run them all at the same time. If you beat Magearna, you no longer outspeed an offensive Charizard X at +1. If you run Fire Punch, Tapu Koko counters you. If you run Earthquake, Genesect counters you. Even if you run Iron Head, Tapu Lele probably still beats you. And Mold Breaker and Terravolt always counter Dragonite.

Honestly, we could perform this exercise on all of the S- and A- rank pokemon. That's part of what makes them good pokemon. They can run different EV spreads and moves to lure in and beat their counters.

Is that Charizard X or Y? Can that Mega-Gyarados tank two Fusion Bolts? I beat a Scarfed Porygon-Z with this pokemon, and a Specs with this one.

I think if we did this with Mega-Gyarados, actually, we'd find that it can beat a lot more pokemon at one time than Dragonite can.

I've played a lot of games on the ladder in gen 7. I simply haven't seen it perform as well as it apparently should be performing. I haven't seen any of the Z-move pokemon perform as well as the old stalwarts, like the Charizards and Mega-Gyarados and Kyurem-B. We shouldn't ban something because it seems OP. We should ban it because it is actually OP on the ladder.

DO NOT BAN Z-MOVES. BAN BROKEN POKEMON.

I agree, if we have to ban something.

If we ban Z-moves we're going to have a worse situation than we had last generation. Gyarados, Defensive Zard and some other things are just going to overpower the meta and we'll be left with a very undiverse meta.

Deciding game after game on Mega-Charizard-X speed ties and Charizard>Mawile>Gyarados>Charizard Rock Paper Scissors was lots of fun awful last meta. We should avoid the bad parts of last gen.

 

[Uselesscrab]

Not necessarily making an argument yet, just posing some questions:

Gyarados, Defensive Zard and some other things are just going to overpower the meta and we'll be left with a very undiverse meta.

Deciding game after game on Mega-Charizard-X speed ties and Charizard>Mawile>Gyarados>Charizard Rock Paper Scissors was lots of fun awful last meta. We should avoid the bad parts of last gen.

Where does this idea come from, that in some way you must have Z-moves or else we will face this apocalyptic worse-case scenario of Charizard-Gyarados dominance...as though those Pokemon aren't already incredibly common on the ladder? Kentari, weren't you just talking about how Devastating Drake Dragonite is balanced...in part because it loses to Gyarados and Charizard X? Need I remind you all that we just dealt with an entire generation of "Gyarados, Defensive Zard and some other things" and no one considered it an issue then? And that people who wanted them to be considered for bans were laughed at? I don't understand this correlation.

By the way, I might add, we're not even supposed to consider these sorts of post-ban "what-if" scenarios.

And in addition, if you want to avoid "deciding game after game on Mega Charizard X speed ties" and rock-paper-scissors between S Rank Pokemon, the solution is just to use other things besides literally the most common Pokemon in the metagame.

also

(why would you use Z-hyper beam over Specs.)

Instead of firing off one 225 BP move turn 1 and doing nothing turn 2, you get a 200 BP one turn 1 and then a 150 BP one turn 2, resulting in a better matchup against stall Pokemon; the same logic applies for Psychium Z Necrozma and such. Don't be so quick to discount the merits of a Z-Crystal.

 

[Elo Bandit]

I'll acknowledge my mistakes from my other post real quick.

1. Kartana and Ferrothorn lose to Dragonite with Fire Punch.
2. Tapu Lele loses 30% of the time if it has no bulk and Dragonite has Iron Head.

These are 100% my bad. I'll change them.

I'd like to rebut a few points, however.

1. It is, in my opinion, bad to run Will-o-Wisp on a Mega-Charizard-X with no defensive investment. You're right, though, a Charizard with no defenses is not a Dragonite counter anymore. If your Charizard counters Scarf Kyurem, it will also counter Dragonite, however.
2. You can't use Extreme Speed under Psychic Terrain.
3. Z-move Crustle is the only show in town. Showing the calc for non-Choice Band Rock Wrecker is sort of pointless. Crustle could also have Counter.
4. Celesteela beats Dragonite even if it has Fire Punch.
5. Mega-Gyarados still probably isn't losing to Dragonite. If you outspeed them, they're bulky and probably tank the hit, and if you don't, they just kill you with +1 Outrage.



If Earthquake is so popular, how are we beating all these pokemon that you need specifically Fire Punch for? Are we not running Extremespeed? If you don't run Extremespeed, a whole new slew of pokemon become counters. Crustle immediately comes to mind. In fact, that really gets to the crux of my argument.

Of course, you can counter certain pokemon if you run specific EV spreads and carry certain moves that allow you to counter them. I'm not disputing that at all. But you can't run them all at the same time. If you beat Magearna, you no longer outspeed an offensive Charizard X at +1. If you run Fire Punch, Tapu Koko counters you. If you run Earthquake, Genesect counters you. Even if you run Iron Head, Tapu Lele probably still beats you. And Mold Breaker and Terravolt always counter Dragonite.

Honestly, we could perform this exercise on all of the S- and A- rank pokemon. That's part of what makes them good pokemon. They can run different EV spreads and moves to lure in and beat their counters.

Is that Charizard X or Y? Can that Mega-Gyarados tank two Fusion Bolts? I beat a Scarfed Porygon-Z with this pokemon, and a Specs with this one.

I think if we did this with Mega-Gyarados, actually, we'd find that it can beat a lot more pokemon at one time than Dragonite can.

I've played a lot of games on the ladder in gen 7. I simply haven't seen it perform as well as it apparently should be performing. I haven't seen any of the Z-move pokemon perform as well as the old stalwarts, like the Charizards and Mega-Gyarados and Kyurem-B. We shouldn't ban something because it seems OP. We should ban it because it is actually OP on the ladder.



I agree, if we have to ban something.


Deciding game after game on Mega-Charizard-X speed ties and Charizard>Mawile>Gyarados>Charizard Rock Paper Scissors was lots of fun awful last meta. We should avoid the bad parts of last gen.

Let me also amend some of my statements. You are correct that bulky Charizard X works as a good check to Dragonite. I forgot momentarily about Psychic Terrain and have edited my above post. I still think that Lum Smash Crustle is completely legitimate, though you are totally right about Counter, making it a moot point. I must be missing something about Celesteela's offensive capabilities. Heavy Slam barely scratches Dragonite and I don't see how Celesteela could Leech Seed stall it, either. As for Mega Gyarados, I think Gyara has an edge but it really depends on both sets.

I was only using EQ and Fpunch for the relevant calculations. Mostly, it was to say that you can't use a pokemon that beats Fpunch Dnite to *also* beat EQ Dnite. I'm not suggesting dropping Espeed, since that's absolutely vital on DD sets.

I feel like Uselesscrab pretty much summed up my thoughts on everything else. We're forming really strong opinions when the metagame hasn't even really formed yet, and we really don't know what the meta will look like if we ban X item or move.

 

[DEG]

No, just no. The answer to Z-moves isn't banning the Pokemon that may seem broken with it. Banning Pokemon after Pokemon due to their Z-moves take less and less from the meta and even after their ban other Pokemon are going to show up using the same Z-move defeating same amount of threats. And all these Pokemon that will be banned (Dragonite, Crustle, Tapu Koko...) mentioned up have one element in common is the usage of a Z-move which clearly shows where the problem comes from. What comes to my mind if in general, Z-moves are broken we should go to the right direction and banning them. But, as seen in the metagame, now all of them are used in the same quantity this is why as a first step I would like to hear opinions on:

• Banning Electrium-Z / Psychium-Z / Dragonium-Z / Normalium-Z.
• Banning other stones.
• Not banning anything.

Also I've seen arguments based on post-ban metagame which shouldn't be really taken into account. Every metagame phase will get judged and tested alone. If Mega Gyarados or Mega Charizard X seem broken or overcentralizing post-ban they will be suspect tested following the philosophy, so this isn't a problem.

 

[The Immortal]

Well, if one Pokemon is broken with a specific Z-Crystal then that Pokemon should be banned. If multiple Pokemon are broken with a specific Z-Crystal then that Z-Crystal should be banned. Keep that in mind.

 

[Beesafree]

my genesect and gastrodon set, i know a lot of people use genesect but i feel my gastro is unique

Gastrodon @ Rindo Berry
Ability: Sticky Hold / Water Absorb
EVS: 252 HP / 252 DEF(SDEF) / 4 SDEF(DEF)
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Scald / Earth power
- Protect / Recover

Okay so i made this set in gen 6, i was pretty proud of it then, and it never fails to please me. Everyone was using Swampert (pre-oras) but Swampert has flaws that Gastrodon covers. one of the main flaws with Swampert is it's ability, all of Swampert's abilities are useless for this set. Sticky Hold is generally better, Trick sets fail against it and you scald them down. I found use in Water absorb once, against a tanky Calm Mind Suicune, which i still lost to in a pp stall fight where he had pressure. Mega Swampert is helped by the fact it acts like sticky hold for trick sets, but then it loses it's Rindo Berry which weakens it against grass attacks. Grass knot does less damage to Gastrodon (60bp vs 80bp (or 100bp)) also when it comes to Char-Y the differences are minimal:

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rindo Berry Gastrodon: 360-424 (84.5 - 99.5%)
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rindo Berry Swampert: 332-392 (82.1 - 97%)
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert-Mega: 564-664 (139.6 - 164.3%)

Bloom Doom will break through protect, ruining your Rindo, and losing you the match. Larger Health pool also means more damage on countercoat, they both suffer from leaf blade Decidueye (ghost type means counter wont work). the small difference in bulk is enough to give up for the better ability (and superior pokemon). Scald is better than Earth Power in general, earth power is mainly for Toxapex, but that's a rarity. Also the scald burn chance gives you a shot to screw over physical attacker set ups, like Gyarados and Dragonite, at a chance. Recover was more viable in gen 6 vs stall/wall sets for pp stall fights, but with z-moves protect is clearly superior, along with the fact that protect allows you to scout the opponent. A final moot point is Gastrodon is EXTREMELY slow (base 39), allowing it to screw over Aggron.

Counters: Rockium Crustle, Pure Attacking Sets (Genesect, Kyu-B, Kartana), Aggron, Bastiodon, Endeavor Donphan, Char-Y/Tapu Koko/Greninja (Sometimes a coin flip, Usually Wins)
Threats: Set up sets (Char-X, Dragonite, Gyara), Physically attacking Ghost Pokemon, Specially Attacking Dark Pokemon, Bloom Doom (Grassium Z), Specs Porygon-Z, Z-move Donphan

Genesect @ Choice Specs
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
EVs 64 Def / 192 SpA / 252 Spe (Beats DD Gyara 100%, with Tbolt)
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Flash Cannon

Classic Genesect set, very versatile. Takes on most sets with some degree of success, obviously fails against fire attacks fairly easily. It relies on it's decent speed and massive special attack to plow through other pokemon. the final 2 slots should be a combination of the 2. Thunderbolt covers basically only Gyarados better (Char-y, in specific conditions, and other rare water types). Ice Beam for Dragonite, Hydreigon, Gliscor (other rare ground and flying types). And Flash cannon for Kyu-B, Mimikyu, Lele (other rare Rock and Fairy types). Personally, I usually run Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam. Genesect's typing allows it to live a surprising number of attacks without any investment, and it's coverage allows it to punish those that don't kill it in one hit.

Counters: Fragile pokemon slower than it, Kyu-B, Mimikyu, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Deoxys-D, Kartana, Mew, Gyarados (Coin flip usually, special evs is 100%), Toxic Reliant Sets (Chansey, lv1 sets), Venusaur, Magearna
Threats: All Charizards (can win against y, in specific conditions), Pokemon that use fire attacks and can outspeed it or survive a hit (Jirachi, Garchomp, surprisingly fire attacks are rather rare for some reason outside of fire type pokemon), Entei, Special Walls (Type: Null, Regice, Porygon2), Pheromosa

EDIT 1/13/2017: added special genesect set to counter gyara
EDIT 1/24/2017: separated Donphans in gastro threat and counters

 

[1vI]

I'd like to remind some people that one of our defenses against OHKO moves (z-moves) was Custap Berry, and the meta could very well be more balanced when it's back.
Otherwise, I'm back and hopefully I can participate a bunch during winter break :)

To those who don't know me, RIP