Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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Ah, my bad. I forgot a couple pokemon. I'd stick MMetagross at A+, Entei at B+, Sawk gets dropped to C- because Custap Berry is unreleased and he's forced into Band, Klefki is somewhere around B, I haven't seen enough Wishiwashi to rank it accurately, Slaking is B-/C+ since he's so weak to Protect/Sub/Endure but otherwise hits really hard. I've never heard of Psych Up Regigigas, could you send me the set?

Sadly there's no mega TTar, but non-mega is a mid to low tier mon imo, Mew has some interesting defensive sets but nothing that would get it above a B ranking, and Avalugg also took a hit this gen - can't use Custap Recover combo and is forced into Weakness Policy. I'd call it a C+ or a C.

I'm terribly sorry, but I can't find a source on the accuracy of Z-sleep moves. From personal experience, it seems more reliable than landing Will-O-Wisp, but the sample size of a single player isn't enough to confirm an accuracy number. I think it's around 90, but I wish I could find a source to know for sure.
For now, everything sounds great except Sawk. Sawk is amazing with Choice Scarf (far better than Band & equal to Custap Berry, or better if you would be wasting a moveslot on an Endure safety). Stone Edge, Close Combat, Poison Jab, Earthquake, the elemental punches, and far more amazing coverage moves allow it to beat a LOT of Pokemon. Sawk, if anything, has gotten better.
Also, The Regigigas set was really just max bulk Substitute + Z Psych Up and maybe T-Wave then murder with amazing stats.

I've been hearing a lot of talk about Mimikyu, but rarely clarifying any sets, so I thought I'd put my favorite Mimikyu set here.
Mimikyu @ Fairium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 200 HP / 172 Atk / 96 Def / 40 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
Compared to the other bulky set I've been seeing, this thing manages to beat several pokemon that it can't. It's able to beat both the bulky and the offensive variant of Charizard X due to its ability to live a Flare Blitz from the offensive Variant and OHKO back with a +2 Twinkle Tackle and can block WoW from defensive variants with 40 Spe EVs+Sub. Against Mega Gyarados, the 252 HP EV spread usually loses to the Adamant variants.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 295-348 (93.9 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
However, with this EV spread, Mimikyu survives 80% of the time.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 200 HP / 96 Def Mimikyu: 262-310 (87 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Shadow Sneak is used as it allows Mimikyu to pinch the KO vs some speedy wallbreakers after a Twinkle Tackle such as Tapu Koko and Landorus-I. A set utilizing Ghostium-Z Shadow Claw could also be very effective, and as everyone has been saying, it can be hard to predict which Z-move Mimikyu is running. I peaked #27 on the 1v1 ladder using this, but I didn't build it around Mimikyu, I built it around a pokemon no one has touched on yet in this forum: Togedemaru.
Togedemaru @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Zing Zap
- Reversal
- Nuzzle
- Spiky Shield
Togedemaru was blessed with the ever popular Sturdy, allowing it to survive hits it otherwise wouldn't on 1 HP. How to use: take a hit, Nuzzle, Reversal. Togedemaru is a surprisingly good pokemon and I'd recommend you try it out if you want to use something a little bit spicy.
Dang, it gets Sturdy?

There isn't one on status moves. Damage Z-Moves have perfect accuracy, but status Z-Moves have the same accuracy their base moves have.



Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Reflect
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind

Z-Reflect is really good. XSTATIC COLD came up with the idea. You can choose between using Barrier or Psychic Hyper Beam depending on your matchup. The flexibility is very nice. Thunderbolt and Calm Mind are your adaptable slots. They can be any combination of coverage moves or utility moves. Moonblast, Substitute, Focus Blast, Grass Knot, HP Fire, Taunt, etc. are all good options.
Nice Lele post, I gotta try it out.
I seem to be getting mixed messages on Z Status accuracy (some arent sure, some say partial boost, and you say none). Perhaps a source/proof?

A nice goal for the (probably distant) future would be to gather and document some new Gen7 Pokemon sets currently being used. I've already seen a few great ones posted here.

I'd also like to defend the current Z-Stone abusers for a second...
Where is Lopunny when you need it?

Finally, I have an updated 1v1 guide that a few new and old 1v1 players liked. (All the other guides are outdated and hard to find for a new player) I can post it sometime as a resource for those interested, and those who want to can help improve it.

Edit:
On another note, here's what I can post, but I'll just stick with the few that are viable in 1v1 when I do post it. Open to suggestions!
 
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Debut Post on Smogon
So I've got several Tapu Koko sets here:

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 232 SpA / 84 SpD / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Dazzling Gleam
- Charge/ Calm Mind
- Protect/ Hidden Power Poison / Hidden Power Ice

This set is the primary set. Ev's are to outspeed Greninja by one point, and boost your special defense to catch download mons like Genesect and Porygon-Z. The EVs can also be 252 Speed for the same results. Generally, Z-Thunder kills anything that doesn't resist it or protects against it, especially after using charge. Dazzling Gleam is only used when a wrong call is made because the difference between base powers of Charged Z-Thunder and Dazzling Gleam is 832.5 BP (charged + STAB + E-terrain Z-Thunder) vs 120 BP (STAB Dazzling Gleam.) Protect is used to predict Z-Moves and Charge is to show what happens when a toad gets struck by lightning. HP Poison and HP Ice for coverage.

Tapu Koko @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 84 HP / 252 SpA / 84 SpD / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Poison]
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot

This one is a weaker set that focuses on taking full advantage of Koko's 130 speed. 88 speed Ev's lets you outspeed a max speed Kyurem, and the 84 Spd is for the download mons again and the rest of the EV's are dumped into attacking and HP for damage and bulk.
 
Debut Post on Smogon
So I've got several Tapu Koko sets here:

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 232 SpA / 84 SpD / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Dazzling Gleam
- Charge/ Calm Mind
- Protect/ Hidden Power Poison / Hidden Power Ice

This set is the primary set. Ev's are to outspeed Greninja by one point, and boost your special defense to catch download mons like Genesect and Porygon-Z. The EVs can also be 252 Speed for the same results. Generally, Z-Thunder kills anything that doesn't resist it or protects against it, especially after using charge. Dazzling Gleam is only used when a wrong call is made because the difference between base powers of Charged Z-Thunder and Dazzling Gleam is 832.5 BP (charged + STAB + E-terrain Z-Thunder) vs 120 BP (STAB Dazzling Gleam.) Protect is used to predict Z-Moves and Charge is to show what happens when a toad gets struck by lightning. HP Poison and HP Ice for coverage.

Tapu Koko @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 84 HP / 252 SpA / 84 SpD / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Poison]
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot

This one is a weaker set that focuses on taking full advantage of Koko's 130 speed. 88 speed Ev's lets you outspeed a max speed Kyurem, and the 84 Spd is for the download mons again and the rest of the EV's are dumped into attacking and HP for damage and bulk.
Awesome, I honestly haven't used Tapu Koko much, so I'll need to try those sets out.
Hey check it out, I made a tier list video (unofficial, of course). Tell me what you think and don't be afraid to disagree with my rankings!


EDIT: Also, here's the Mega Gyarados analysis video I made!

There isn't one on status moves. Damage Z-Moves have perfect accuracy, but status Z-Moves have the same accuracy their base moves have.
Ok, I found myself a few other sources, and it seems as though no status moves get accuracy boosts of any sort, but there is still Micle Berry! :D

Edit: RIP Micle Berry
 
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Uselesscrab

suffering whiteout conditions
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Here's a cool set I've been using:


Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake

First of all, Mega Metagross is good on its own in the current metagame. It provides an excellent answer to many of the prominent Fairy- and Rock-types by hitting them hard with a Tough Claws-boosted Meteor Mash, though it does struggle with Tapu Koko and Crustle. Meanwhile, Psychic STAB has always been a blessing in a metagame in which Fighting-types are a consistently common presence. Defensively, it quite notably resists, besides the above types, Giga Impact and Hyper Beam and their Z-move counterparts, allowing it to handle things like Porygon-Z and Meloetta.

You may recall from last generation that its speed (with this spread) allows it to gain an edge over the Charizards and sacrifice a precious moveslot to defeat Charizard Y with Thunder Punch, though still lose to Charizard X. Well, I decided to defy the conventional wisdom and go for this weird set that allows Mega Metagross to beat the most common variants of both Charizards. Here's a description of how it works:
  1. Against Charizard X: Your objective is to make it down to 1% with Substitute. Even if they attempt to Dragon Dance, you can sub as they Flare Blitz. The essential tactic here is to force them to take the ~8.25% recoil from Flare Blitz four times, allowing for a KO with Earthquake. 252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 216-256 (72.4 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. If you run into the same player multiple times, they may attempt to force mindgames in this matchup in one way or another. Dragon Dancing repeatedly won't accomplish much, since you can just Sub on their Flare Blitz, unless they set out to PP stall Substitute, in which case you run into trouble. Staying regular form is an even worse idea for Charizard because Zen Headbutt does about same the amount of damage as Earthquake against X. 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 226-267 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Finally, Earthquake appears occasionally on Charizard X but is a pretty foolish choice of move imo.
  2. Against Charizard Y: This matchup is pretty easy unless they have a Fire-type move besides Blast Burn, which isn't that common in my experience. Even if they do, they would have to hit Fire Blast four times in a row to win, which is close to a 50-50.
Obviously, it's not the most reliable of all counters, so don't run it as your sole answer to these Pokemon, but it can function as an exceptionally good lure on a team that's ostensibly Charizard-weak, particularly in the first match on the ladder or in a tournament, when the opponent doesn't have advance knowledge of your sets.

In addition, Substitute has other benefits; it helps against stall Pokemon that don't boost their own defenses, Sturdy strategies, and Z-move users. Give the set a try and let me know what you think.
 

Deagle M40

formerly iSeb
Ill be posting a sample team which allowed me to get the highest gxe on the 1v1 ladder at this time

so i just picked up gen7 1v1, and i went 40-1, i dont know if this is good but i have the highest gxe on the ladder so it must be ok to some degree.



Now i saw that this thread was lacking sample teams so i thought id contribute the team i used.


Dragonite @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Iron Head
- Earthquake

Aegislash @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield

Mimikyu @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak


I started off with dragon z-move dragonite, as it hits incredibly hard and is in my opinion one of the best z-move abusers as it has good coverage options to beat things it may usually struggle with, such as iron head for fairies, and earthquake for steels. Also access to dragon dance is incredibly nice as it allows dragonite to boost its attack and speed, and in tandem with multi scale makes dragonite a potent force in the metagame. I then added aegislash to help with fairies and kyurem-black as well as other possible threats such as specs latios. Finally i added a mimmikyu, due to its amazing ability disguise which allows it to be another great z-move abuser, and act as a blanket mon for the meta because of its amazing ability.


so thats my team so far I'm really enjoying gen 7 1v1, if whoever inputs the team needs a sprite overview of the team then tada and enjoy!

 
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Shahdow

Banned deucer.
Would it be possible to bring back the old 1v1 that existed back in 2013? This new "1v1" completely ruins the whole point of what 1v1 is supposed to be. Might as well call the version of it we have now "3v3" since that's pretty much what it is...

(Already asked this in Q&A and Suggestions threads, but this seems like a better place to put it.)
 
Here's a cool set I've been using:


Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake

First of all, Mega Metagross is good on its own in the current metagame. It provides an excellent answer to many of the prominent Fairy- and Rock-types by hitting them hard with a Tough Claws-boosted Meteor Mash, though it does struggle with Tapu Koko and Crustle. Meanwhile, Psychic STAB has always been a blessing in a metagame in which Fighting-types are a consistently common presence. Defensively, it quite notably resists, besides the above types, Giga Impact and Hyper Beam and their Z-move counterparts, allowing it to handle things like Porygon-Z and Meloetta.

You may recall from last generation that its speed (with this spread) allows it to gain an edge over the Charizards and sacrifice a precious moveslot to defeat Charizard Y with Thunder Punch, though still lose to Charizard X. Well, I decided to defy the conventional wisdom and go for this weird set that allows Mega Metagross to beat the most common variants of both Charizards. Here's a description of how it works:
  1. Against Charizard X: Your objective is to make it down to 1% with Substitute. Even if they attempt to Dragon Dance, you can sub as they Flare Blitz. The essential tactic here is to force them to take the ~8.25% recoil from Flare Blitz four times, allowing for a KO with Earthquake. 252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 216-256 (72.4 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. If you run into the same player multiple times, they may attempt to force mindgames in this matchup in one way or another. Dragon Dancing repeatedly won't accomplish much, since you can just Sub on their Flare Blitz, unless they set out to PP stall Substitute, in which case you run into trouble. Staying regular form is an even worse idea for Charizard because Zen Headbutt does about same the amount of damage as Earthquake against X. 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 226-267 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Finally, Earthquake appears occasionally on Charizard X but is a pretty foolish choice of move imo.
  2. Against Charizard Y: This matchup is pretty easy unless they have a Fire-type move besides Blast Burn, which isn't that common in my experience. Even if they do, they would have to hit Fire Blast four times in a row to win, which is close to a 50-50.
Obviously, it's not the most reliable of all counters, so don't run it as your sole answer to these Pokemon, but it can function as an exceptionally good lure on a team that's ostensibly Charizard-weak, particularly in the first match on the ladder or in a tournament, when the opponent doesn't have advance knowledge of your sets.

In addition, Substitute has other benefits; it helps against stall Pokemon that don't boost their own defenses, Sturdy strategies, and Z-move users. Give the set a try and let me know what you think.
UC, you're a genius. Seriously though, this breaks the GyaraGross core even more :D

Ill be posting a sample team which allowed me to get the highest gxe on the 1v1 ladder at this time

so i just picked up gen7 1v1, and i went 40-1, i dont know if this is good but i have the highest gxe on the ladder so it must be ok to some degree.



Now i saw that this thread was lacking sample teams so i thought id contribute the team i used.


Dragonite @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Iron Head
- Earthquake

Aegislash @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield

Mimikyu @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak


I started off with dragon z-move dragonite, as it hits incredibly hard and is in my opinion one of the best z-move abusers as it has good coverage options to beat things it may usually struggle with, such as iron head for fairies, and earthquake for steels. Also access to dragon dance is incredibly nice as it allows dragonite to boost its attack and speed, and in tandem with multi scale makes dragonite a potent force in the metagame. I then added aegislash to help with fairies and kyurem-black as well as other possible threats such as specs latios. Finally i added a mimmikyu, due to its amazing ability disguise which allows it to be another great z-move abuser, and act as a blanket mon for the meta because of its amazing ability.


so thats my team so far I'm really enjoying gen 7 1v1, if whoever inputs the team needs a sprite overview of the team then tada and enjoy!

Great job, I look forward to seeing you in 1v1 later! :D

Would it be possible to bring back the old 1v1 that existed back in 2013? This new "1v1" completely ruins the whole point of what 1v1 is supposed to be. Might as well call the version of it we have now "3v3" since that's pretty much what it is...

(Already asked this in Q&A and Suggestions threads, but this seems like a better place to put it.)
Phew, this again. We realized the meta was far too "luck based" and the game was almost always over before it started. Here's the original thought behind the change. A "true" 1v1 ladder honestly isn't as fun as this, and I highly doubt it'll change at all.

And if you thought Z-Moves weren't broken, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-502659347 + http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-502668528

Finally, how is this for an updated beginner's guide to 1v1?
 
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Probably this set is kinda stupid, but I've tried enough times and I found it very, very viable!



Salazzle @ Firium Z
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fake Out
- Overheat
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]

First of all, how did I come up with this thing? In my 1v1 team, I needed a Sturdy "counter" and something that can deal with steel Pokémons. Here is the answer!
Salazzle is very, very fast, so it has no problems with the majority of fast Pokémons. Fake Out is "the thing" which stops almost every Sturdy users (only against Golem and other Rock type users has problems) and also against Hitmonlee (it won't be able to use Fake Out, preventing the Normal Gem to be consumed and so, no Unburden)! Probably this set is good also against Dragonite, but this still needs to be tested.
The rest of the moveset is pretty straightforward. Overheat becomes Inferno Overdrive, which annihilates almost everyone. Sludge Wave is the other STAB move, useful against Tapu Bulu and other fairies. Hidden Power [Ice] is just for ground and, as I said before, for Dragonite.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Probably this set is kinda stupid, but I've tried enough times and I found it very, very viable!



Salazzle @ Firium Z
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fake Out
- Overheat
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]

First of all, how did I come up with this thing? In my 1v1 team, I needed a Sturdy "counter" and something that can deal with steel Pokémons. Here is the answer!
Salazzle is very, very fast, so it has no problems with the majority of fast Pokémons. Fake Out is "the thing" which stops almost every Sturdy users (only against Golem and other Rock type users has problems) and also against Hitmonlee (it won't be able to use Fake Out, preventing the Normal Gem to be consumed and so, no Unburden)! Probably this set is good also against Dragonite, but this still needs to be tested.
The rest of the moveset is pretty straightforward. Overheat becomes Inferno Overdrive, which annihilates almost everyone. Sludge Wave is the other STAB move, useful against Tapu Bulu and other fairies. Hidden Power [Ice] is just for ground and, as I said before, for Dragonite.
I haven't played much 1v1 yet this gen, but if you wanted to hit Golem you can run HP Water/Grass instead of Ice. Depends what is the bigger threat to your team tho, Golem or Dnite
 

lost heros

Meme Master
Alright, so I haven't been playing too recently (I got tilted after a losing streak and then I had finals), but I did try out a fun niche Pokémon.

With the omni-presence of Gyarados-mega, most people run Electric Types or Fairy Types, but I found that the best counter is none other than Alolan Persian.

Persian-Alola @ Fairium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Def / 64 SpA / 88 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Charm
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Power Gem

But Lost Heros, Mold Breaker ignores Fur Coat! While you are right Fur Coat helps against Dragonite and Crustle not Gyarados. The real power of Alolan Persian is its ability to outspeed mac speed Gyarados and use Z-charm. Z-Charm not only reduces Gyarados's attack by two stages but raises Persian's defense by one stage. This mean their attack would only do 1/3rd of what it would normally.

If the Gyarados-Mega attacks turn one, you're best bet is to Nasty Plot and then 2HKO with Thunderbolt. But if they use Dragon Dance, it's best to use Thunderbolt and forego boosting to snatch the 4HKO in case they use taunt.

Against Dragonite, I use Z-Charm and then regular charm while they try to boost to no avail with Dragon Dance. Be careful and generally assume it's weakness policy because boosting them +2 by using Power Gem is an unnecessary risk.


Calcs
Against Gyarados-Mega
After Z-Charm

-2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. +1 104 HP / 252+ Def Persian-Alola: 54-64 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO
64 SpA Persian-Alola Thunderbolt vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 90-106 (25.4 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 64 SpA Persian-Alola Thunderbolt vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 178-210 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Against Dragonite
-2 252+ Atk Dragonite Devastating Drake vs. +1 104 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 60-72 (20.2 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
-2 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. +1 104 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 37-45 (12.4 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. +1 104 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 55-66 (18.5 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO

Against Crustle
-2 252 Atk Crustle Continental Crush vs. +1 104 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 46-55 (15.4 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO


But still with all of this be incredibly careful with Persian as I opt not to use any recovery and without the proper etiquette you might lose when you should win. Furthermore it just dies to Special Attackers and doesn't even do too great against Mega Charizard-X because it does not outspeed.
 
The Immortal, since the thread is getting lots of great input, could someone start a new & viable Pokemon resource for Gen 7 1v1?

I haven't played much 1v1 yet this gen, but if you wanted to hit Golem you can run HP Water/Grass instead of Ice. Depends what is the bigger threat to your team tho, Golem or Dnite
Dnite is a far bigger threat this generation with DDance + Z-Outrage :) Besides, people can't make up their mind about Golem or Golem-Alola apart from Sucker Punch.

I have a challenge for everyone! Try and ladder with STALL instead of the current archetypes! Things like Z-Charm and Deoxys-Defense are quite strong right now.
 
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Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Z-Moves: We dont want to quickban them yet, they are something new, we are going to see of people are able to adapt to them. Meanwhile please keep on discussing them. I'm also going to ask one question: Which Z-Stones do you think are the most broken, (Electrium-Z, Steelium-Z etc...) and why?
This isn't monotype, where you ban things based on type. Z stones bump up moves of any type to a base power of 100 to 200, with 200 BP being the most common unless something like Tackle is being used with Z. This should be really obvious, but Z moves are even recognized by their creator Game Freak as too strong, which is why the limit is 1 per battle, which is a fair trade-off due to standard battles being 6v6. When it comes to 1v1 that trade-off is diminished. This mechanic is inherently broken for 1v1 by its very nature. Anyone who has played gen7 or has a sense of the base power of moves can see that the damage is too much for the cost. If perish song was undesirable due to ending battles in 3 turns then Z attacks are even more undesirable in that regard due to their ability to end battles in as few as 1 turn, OHKO'ing even tanks with non-super effective STAB. Comparing this to choice items, Z moves get around the set back to those too, you're not locked into the same move, which means that you have access to other moves, such as setup, and that the opponent can't use strats that make you use struggle as punishment for example.

Being able to use a 200 BP move and then if the opponent somehow is alive instantly following up with a Giga Impact is ridiculous. Meanwhile Z enhanced status moves can also be ridiculous with moves such as Belly Drum and Curse restoring all HP, and conversion boosting every stat. Even though many of the Z enhanced status moves aren't problems, the fact that the same Z stones that enhance status moves can be used to enhance attacking moves makes them acceptable collateral damage in a Z stone ban.

A lot of pokemon are winning a lot of matchups they never would or should have won if it wasn't for their use of Z.
The existence of Z moves is hindering any real assessment of the meta's state in terms of balance, they've skewed the meta and need to be banned for the progression of real balancing. There shouldn't be any adapting to Z moves, they should be banned as soon as possible. How long will something this obviously broken going to stay?
 
This isn't monotype, where you ban things based on type. Z stones bump up moves of any type to a base power of 100 to 200, with 200 BP being the most common unless something like Tackle is being used with Z. This should be really obvious, but Z moves are even recognized by their creator Game Freak as too strong, which is why the limit is 1 per battle, which is a fair trade-off due to standard battles being 6v6. When it comes to 1v1 that trade-off is diminished. This mechanic is inherently broken for 1v1 by its very nature. Anyone who has played gen7 or has a sense of the base power of moves can see that the damage is too much for the cost. If perish song was undesirable due to ending battles in 3 turns then Z attacks are even more undesirable in that regard due to their ability to end battles in as few as 1 turn, OHKO'ing even tanks with non-super effective STAB. Comparing this to choice items, Z moves get around the set back to those too, you're not locked into the same move, which means that you have access to other moves, such as setup, and that the opponent can't use strats that make you use struggle as punishment for example.

Being able to use a 200 BP move and then if the opponent somehow is alive instantly following up with a Giga Impact is ridiculous. Meanwhile Z enhanced status moves can also be ridiculous with moves such as Belly Drum and Curse restoring all HP, and conversion boosting every stat. Even though many of the Z enhanced status moves aren't problems, the fact that the same Z stones that enhance status moves can be used to enhance attacking moves makes them acceptable collateral damage in a Z stone ban.

A lot of pokemon are winning a lot of matchups they never would or should have won if it wasn't for their use of Z.
The existence of Z moves is hindering any real assessment of the meta's state in terms of balance, they've skewed the meta and need to be banned for the progression of real balancing. There shouldn't be any adapting to Z moves, they should be banned as soon as possible. How long will something this obviously broken going to stay?
I love Z-moves, yet they are quite strong. However, are they really more broken than the meta itself?

Great stand, and even though I feel z-moves are broken in certain situations, they're not completely broken by default. If they were, our top players (such as Emperor and XStatic Cold) would be using lots on every team, but somehow they're not. Nope, they're using stuff like Assault Vest Conkeldurr to get to 1800, and Pokemon with Mega Stones.
But Iv1, many good players are winning with Z-Stones!
Yup, and many better ones are winning with Mega Stones optional Z-Stones and niche mons.

Wait, Megas have extreme power boosts, and they're one per battle so they must be broken in 1v1 by its very nature right? They can win battles on Turn 1 and Turn 2. If so, why did we spend an long time with them and not ban them all?
But Iv1, Z-Stones can be on ANY Pokemon!
That may be true, but only a select few can 'break' them due to specific stats and abilities. A Z-Stone Tapu Koko isn't NEARLY as powerful if it didn't have Electric Terrain. (Firium Z Torkoal is not NEARLY as good without Drought)

How about other items, Z-stones are obviously more powerful than Choice items, right? Well, Choice Scarf is a entirely different story, but as for Choice Band/Specs, I consider them equal to Z-Stones.
But Iv1, Z-Stones have WAY better back to back damage!
That may be true, but you're losing out on a lot of damage on coverage moves that could potentially win you games. Is an Icium Z Kyurem-Black really better than Choice Specs? No, it's different. Besides, lots of stall HATES trick+choice, a niche that cannot be ignored.

Now, I'd like to first summarize what I AM NOT saying.
- Z Stones are weak.
- Z Stones can't be better than some Megas and Choice users.
- Z Stones are not broken on some Pokemon.

Here is what I AM saying.
- Z-Stones are strong, but viable if not abused.
- Z-Stones are equal to or better than some Megas and Choice users, while sometimes worse.
- Z-Stones might need a limitation.
AND
- Z-Stones MUST have a quite strong host to be 'broken'.
- Some Z-Stones aren't broken at all.

Banning all the Z-Stones isn't reasonable, but I'm really stuck on what to do.
No, just no. The answer to Z-moves isn't banning the Pokemon that may seem broken with it. Banning Pokemon after Pokemon due to their Z-moves take less and less from the meta and even after their ban other Pokemon are going to show up using the same Z-move defeating same amount of threats. And all these Pokemon that will be banned (Dragonite, Crustle, Tapu Koko...) mentioned up have one element in common is the usage of a Z-move which clearly shows where the problem comes from. What comes to my mind if in general, Z-moves are broken we should go to the right direction and banning them. But, as seen in the metagame, now all of them are used in the same quantity this is why as a first step I would like to hear opinions on:
  • Banning Electrium-Z / Psychium-Z / Dragonium-Z / Normalium-Z.
  • Banning other stones.
  • Not banning anything.
Also I've seen arguments based on post-ban metagame which shouldn't be really taken into account. Every metagame phase will get judged and tested alone. If Mega Gyarados or Mega Charizard X seem broken or overcentralizing post-ban they will be suspect tested following the philosophy, so this isn't a problem.
I honestly disagree that "other Pokemon are going to show up using the same Z-move defeating same amount of threats" but either way it seems as that option has been ruled out, unless the large majority of people agree on it.

I believe the only option left is to ask which Z-Stones are broken, if any. By broken, I mean, and too over centralizing such as Salamence-Mega was. I think individual items should be seen as individual threats, as Choice Band Kyurem-Black is NOT Choice Specs Kyurem-Black.

Why can't we judge based on ALL the Z-Stones viability together? There's just far too many of them. On top of this, like stated before, some simply don't have the potential to be abused in any way. I highly doubt I'll see Buginium Z, Vivillons break the meta, even Firium Z Entei is balanced with the loads of water Pokemon that will always be viable.

Extra updates -
Many of the consistent top players seem to think it's just a matter of whether or not new players can figure out how to counter the meta.
Could I get anyone to back me up on starting a set resource for this new generation? The new players are seriously being scared away.
Tell me about anything wrong I said, I'd love to fix it :)
 
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The Immortal

They Don't Want None
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This mechanic is inherently broken for 1v1 by its very nature.
One could say the same thing about Choice. You no longer fear being locked because your opponent can't switch, etc.

Please stop saying "mechanics are broken" - it doesn't prove anything and I'm not banning mechanics... If you feel a Z-Crystal is broken, post it with calcs to back it up. If you feel all Z-Crystals are broken, post them all with calcs to back them up.
 
Being able to use a 200 BP move and then if the opponent somehow is alive instantly following up with a Giga Impact is ridiculous. Meanwhile Z enhanced status moves can also be ridiculous with moves such as Belly Drum and Curse restoring all HP, and conversion boosting every stat.
I have to disagree with you here. Nobody uses Breakneck Blitz on the ladder. No one has ever used Z-Curse or Z-Belly Drum because they're not good. For a while, people experimented with Z-Conversion, but no one uses it anymore because it's worse than Choice Scarf or Specs on Porygon-Z. Porygon-Z actually got nerfed this generation because the Custap Berry set was its best set.

It seems to me that you're not even playing on the same ladder I am. These aren't good Z-move sets. Plenty of people experimented with all these things. They're not that good in 1v1. I don't know why you didn't mention the good Z-move users as justification for why Z-moves should be banned.

A lot of pokemon are winning a lot of matchups they never would or should have won if it wasn't for their use of Z.
Who decides whether a pokemon should win a matchup? Plenty of pokemon win matchups they "shouldn't" win because of certain items or moves or EV spreads. What's the difference between a Z-move and a Choice Scarf in this situation? Or even a coverage move?

why the limit is 1 per battle, which is a fair trade-off due to standard battles being 6v6
We already allow more than one Mega-Evolution on 1v1 teams, which isn't allowed in 6v6 either.

There shouldn't be any adapting to Z moves, they should be banned as soon as possible
Are you really saying that Acid Downpour and Savage Spinout are broken in 1v1?

Why can't we judge based on ALL the Z-Stones viability together? There's just far too many of them. On top of this, like stated before, some simply don't have the potential to be abused in any way. I highly doubt I'll see Buginium Z, Vivillons break the meta, even Firium Z Entei is balanced with the loads of water Pokemon that will always be viable.
I agree. We shouldn't ban all Z-stones. They're not all broken.

But Iv1, many good players are winning with Z-Stones! Yup, and many better ones are winning with Mega Stones optional Z-Stones and niche mons.
To provide some support for this, at this moment the top 5 spots on the ladder are held by XSTATIC COLD, Emperor, myself, and FIREEEE. XSTATIC COLD got rank 1 without Z-moves, the only Z-move user I've ever seen Emperor use is Crustle, and FIREEEE probably didn't use Z-moves. He always uses the same team with defensive Mew, although I can't say definitively what team he used to get fifth. I'm the only person in the top 5 of the ladder right now who uses Z-moves frequently, and plenty of my teams don't include any Z-move users or only one. And plenty of the Z-moves I use, I don't think anyone considers broken, like Rockium-Z Donphan. And that's just the top 5. Sephiroth75, who is 6th, used Air Balloon Magearna, Mega-Gyarados, and Scarf Victini. If Z-moves are so good, how can these people get to the top of the ladder without them?

I believe the only option left is to ask which Z-Stones are broken, if any.
I think we already got asked this question by good ol' Dream Eater Gengar.

Which Z-Stones do you think are the most broken, (Electrium-Z, Steelium-Z etc...) and why?




Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Atk / 180 Def / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Meteor Mash
- Thunder Punch
- Earthquake

Continuing the theme of counter-team Mega-Metagross, this set is designed to beat Mega-Gyarados. Essentially, you outspeed them if they don't Dragon Dance and 2HKO them and if they do Dragon Dance, you live the +1 Crunch and still KO back. If they're defensive and you don't get the roll, Bullet Punch will finish the job. The speed EVs allow you to outspeed any Adamant Gyarados. If they're Jolly, well, good for them. They'll still DD and fail to KO you the first time you face them on the ladder.

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Metagross-Mega: 276-326 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
48 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gyarados-Mega: 188-222 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO

This set has the added advantage of beating opposing Metagross, as well as many of the same pokemon regular Mega-Metagross beats.

252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Metagross-Mega: 134-158 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
48 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 146-172 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO

Edit: Yo, why is Species Clause enabled in gen 7 when it wasn't enabled in gen 6? In 1v1, all it does is reduce creativity.
 
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Edit: Yo, why is Species Clause enabled in gen 7 when it wasn't enabled in gen 6? In 1v1, all it does is reduce creativity.
I agree, and to be honest, even 3 Salamence-Megas on one team didn't "break the meta", since they often all lost to one thing anyways.

Awesome Metagross BTW :)
However, Jolly Gyarados are quite common with Crustle seeing much usage, and even otherwise, so 24 Spe EVs Jolly Metagross would be preferred. Also, 248HP / 164Def Jolly tanks +1 Adamant Crunch, and outspeeds Jolly, while the other 72ATK guaranteed 2HKOing any Gyara under 252 / 64 defenses. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this set be more consistent? What does your set beat over this one?
 
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First of all, Z-Crystals, not stones.
Second of all, 220 is highest base power, not 200. V-Create exceeds it.
Yeah, it is Z-Crystals, but we (or at least I) chose to say "Stones" since we got used to Mega stones.

Otherwise, I'd like to make a mini reference for new players trying to beat amazingly powerful Pokemon like Gyarados-Mega and Kyurem-Black.
Gyarados-Mega: Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z - Thunder
Kyurem-Black: Latios @ Choice Scarf - Draco Meteor
Charizard-Mega(Both): Archeops @ Rockium Z - Head Smash
Crustle: (Max Speed) Ramparados @ Rockium Z - Head Smash Ability: Mold Breaker
Any others? Just ask me.
 
I worked with Kentari and Elite Champeon to make this video discussing the viability of Z-Moves, and whether they deserve to be banned or not.


0:00 Initial positions + reasoning on Z-Moves
6:26 Mega Gyarados
12:25 Rockium Z
15:33 Electrium Z
18:24 Dragonium Z
18:43 Psychium Z
21:21 Normalium Z
23:50 Mimikyu (Fairinum Z and Ghostium Z)
27:55 Most overpowered Z-Moves?
29:08 Final stances on Z-Moves
29:56 Banning all Z-Moves
31:30 Conclusion
 
I worked with Kentari and Elite Champeon to make this video discussing the viability of Z-Moves, and whether they deserve to be banned or not.


0:00 Initial positions + reasoning on Z-Moves
6:26 Mega Gyarados
12:25 Rockium Z
15:33 Electrium Z
18:24 Dragonium Z
18:43 Psychium Z
21:21 Normalium Z
23:50 Mimikyu (Fairinum Z and Ghostium Z)
27:55 Most overpowered Z-Moves?
29:08 Final stances on Z-Moves
29:56 Banning all Z-Moves
31:30 Conclusion
Amazing, and I support this 101%

By the way, Tapu Lele could be improved on, couldnt it?

Lord Hax (Togekiss) @ Psychium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: Your choice!
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Reflect/Light Screen/Filler
- Light Screen/Reflect/Filler
- Tailwind/Filler

Enjoy HAX.
 

lost heros

Meme Master
I worked with Kentari and Elite Champeon to make this video discussing the viability of Z-Moves, and whether they deserve to be banned or not.


0:00 Initial positions + reasoning on Z-Moves
6:26 Mega Gyarados
12:25 Rockium Z
15:33 Electrium Z
18:24 Dragonium Z
18:43 Psychium Z
21:21 Normalium Z
23:50 Mimikyu (Fairinum Z and Ghostium Z)
27:55 Most overpowered Z-Moves?
29:08 Final stances on Z-Moves
29:56 Banning all Z-Moves
31:30 Conclusion
No mention of fairium-Z Alolan Persian. I consider this a personal attack.
 
I've been using a Heatran set that beats sturdys and it has been working pretty well.

bloom moon2 (Heatran) @ Steelium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Fire Blast
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp

From experience, it beats Crustle, Regirock, and Carracosta. I haven't faced a Donphan with it but, calcs show a burned Donphan can still OHKO Heatran with Earthquake if it has Choice Band which I think most do. They also outspeed Heatran when max speed and I am guessing most Donphan won't run that because they have very horrible speed stats already. Heatran can also OHKO it with Corkscrew Crash, but obviously, Donphan has Sturdy. But as I was saying, if Donphan doesn't outspeed Heatran and doesn't have Choice Band/Tectonic Rage, you win. Also it beats Kyurem unless it has Earth Power (rip Air Balloon).

This set is mainly to beat Crustle and Carracosta. It just happens it beats Kyurem (kind of) and Regirock so pls don't hate because it can't beat Donphan. For Crustle and Carracosta (I think those two are the only Shell Smash sturdys or the ones I see), I first use Will-O-Wisp as there is no point in Taunting because you lose if they EQ twice which makes you live their EQ and breaks their sturdy and then kill with Corkscrew Crash. Another option other than Taunt would be okay but Taunt helps with stall. Fire Blast is for STAB but you can change it. I've had problems with Fire types but you should use another pokemon to help with those.

The name is just there because it can be and it is to hint it has Bloom Doom (Grassium Z Solar Beam) but it doesn't! muahahahaha... ok

A good counter to this Heatran is ironically, Carracosta/Crustle. I run Lum Berry on my Crustle and you can run Groundium Z to mess with this set... Something like special Kyurem-Black might be better to handle these pokemon but....... Heatran is just so cute oWo... Yeah...... I have no idea why I run this ;-;

Calcs of opponents:
252+ Atk Carracosta Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 324-384 (83.9 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk burned Carracosta Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 324-382 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Crustle Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 320-380 (82.9 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk burned Crustle Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 318-376 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Regirock Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 232-274 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 392-464 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk burned Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 264-312 (68.3 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
also 144 sp attack (with a nature like quirky that doesnt lower sp attack) earth power from kyurem black and up OHKOs Heatran so rip

Calcs from Heatran:
132 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Carracosta: 340-402 (117.6 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
132 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crustle: 606-714 (215.6 - 254%) -- guaranteed OHKO
132 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regirock: 480-566 (131.8 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
132 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 363-427 (94.5 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO **close enough I think burn damage kills it**
132 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 524-618 (134 - 158%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I use this Heatran with Kentari's Tapu Lele set except with Moonblast over Calm Mind to beat Gyarados easier. Lele wins everytime against it except for flinch haxing... Also, I've tried making a Fairium Z set that also beats Porygon Z along with Gyarados but it has a very low chance of OHKOing normal Gyarados if Lele is Timid to beat Normalium Z Porygon Z (that is a mouthful) but anyways Choice Scarf Porygon Z just beats Lele not matter what so I wouldn't use my set.

I also use a Crustle but I rarely get to use it. I guess it is just there to threaten. Kyurem and Gyarados easily beat it. I might need to switch it for something that beats special attackers like someone with Mirror Coat so my team doesn't look this is just dies to Kyurem Black (I guess my team dies to mixed Kyurem Black).

Anyways, I haven't been playing much against Mimikyu. Do you think the Tapu Lele set beats it?
 

Osra

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is a Pre-Contributor
First post on the new 1v1 thread!

Gotta say I'm loving the forced diversity of the meta, all the new things have shaken up the meta to make it more than just a handful of mons only ever being used at a time, basically mandating people to bring more than one team at a time when trying to ladder, which I unfortunately learned the hard way when first laddering today :p

If I had to complain about things, it would be that we held on to the gen 6 mindset when transferring over to gen 7, which is made clear by all the similar bans and unbans. I personally would've liked to actually get a chance to see if Perish Song and Focus Sash were really banworthy again, but unfortunately that won't be the case.

Not to mention, we seem to be flipping between having species clause and not having it. I personally would be alright with either way, but I just want to be able to settle in to what gen 7 1v1 is, which is part of why I refrained from playing on Showdown very much early gen 7 since I knew everything would be changing constantly, which would have made it difficult to actually learn the meta.

I also have to admit the meta seems remarkably healthy with Mawile gone

The only thing I'm particularly iffy about is Z-moves, specifically Z-attacks. The ability to basically double a standard move's power at will (or use a relatively stronger move with 0 drawbacks in the case of thunder and such) seems questionable, but, since gen 7 1v1 is still fairly fresh, it's likely best to give things a chance to settle and then react to what they become.

Here's hoping that 1v1 will continue to be fun to play for a while :) and that sleep moves under 75 accuracy get banned ;(
 
I've been using a Heatran set that beats sturdys and it has been working pretty well.

bloom moon2 (Heatran) @ Steelium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Fire Blast
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp

From experience, it beats Crustle, Regirock, and Carracosta. I haven't faced a Donphan with it but, calcs show a burned Donphan can still OHKO Heatran with Earthquake if it has Choice Band which I think most do. They also outspeed Heatran when max speed and I am guessing most Donphan won't run that because they have very horrible speed stats already. Heatran can also OHKO it with Corkscrew Crash, but obviously, Donphan has Sturdy. But as I was saying, if Donphan doesn't outspeed Heatran and doesn't have Choice Band/Tectonic Rage, you win. Also it beats Kyurem unless it has Earth Power (rip Air Balloon).

This set is mainly to beat Crustle and Carracosta. It just happens it beats Kyurem (kind of) and Regirock so pls don't hate because it can't beat Donphan. For Crustle and Carracosta (I think those two are the only Shell Smash sturdys or the ones I see), I first use Will-O-Wisp as there is no point in Taunting because you lose if they EQ twice which makes you live their EQ and breaks their sturdy and then kill with Corkscrew Crash. Another option other than Taunt would be okay but Taunt helps with stall. Fire Blast is for STAB but you can change it. I've had problems with Fire types but you should use another pokemon to help with those.

The name is just there because it can be and it is to hint it has Bloom Doom (Grassium Z Solar Beam) but it doesn't! muahahahaha... ok

A good counter to this Heatran is ironically, Carracosta/Crustle. I run Lum Berry on my Crustle and you can run Groundium Z to mess with this set... Something like special Kyurem-Black might be better to handle these pokemon but....... Heatran is just so cute oWo... Yeah...... I have no idea why I run this ;-;

Calcs of opponents:
252+ Atk Carracosta Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 324-384 (83.9 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk burned Carracosta Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 324-382 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Crustle Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 320-380 (82.9 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk burned Crustle Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 318-376 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Regirock Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 232-274 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 392-464 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk burned Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Heatran: 264-312 (68.3 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
also 144 sp attack (with a nature like quirky that doesnt lower sp attack) earth power from kyurem black and up OHKOs Heatran so rip

Calcs from Heatran:
132 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Carracosta: 340-402 (117.6 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
132 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crustle: 606-714 (215.6 - 254%) -- guaranteed OHKO
132 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regirock: 480-566 (131.8 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
132 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 363-427 (94.5 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO **close enough I think burn damage kills it**
132 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 524-618 (134 - 158%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I use this Heatran with Kentari's Tapu Lele set except with Moonblast over Calm Mind to beat Gyarados easier. Lele wins everytime against it except for flinch haxing... Also, I've tried making a Fairium Z set that also beats Porygon Z along with Gyarados but it has a very low chance of OHKOing normal Gyarados if Lele is Timid to beat Normalium Z Porygon Z (that is a mouthful) but anyways Choice Scarf Porygon Z just beats Lele not matter what so I wouldn't use my set.

I also use a Crustle but I rarely get to use it. I guess it is just there to threaten. Kyurem and Gyarados easily beat it. I might need to switch it for something that beats special attackers like someone with Mirror Coat so my team doesn't look this is just dies to Kyurem Black (I guess my team dies to mixed Kyurem Black).

Anyways, I haven't been playing much against Mimikyu. Do you think the Tapu Lele set beats it?
Can't you just run Air Balloon and beat the same pokemon? Plus a bunch of other pokemon that rely on ground moves to beat Heatran?

Tapu Lele loses to Mimikyu if it's ghost Z-Move, I think.

Overheat is probably better STAB.

First post on the new 1v1 thread!

Gotta say I'm loving the forced diversity of the meta, all the new things have shaken up the meta to make it more than just a handful of mons only ever being used at a time, basically mandating people to bring more than one team at a time when trying to ladder, which I unfortunately learned the hard way when first laddering today :p

If I had to complain about things, it would be that we held on to the gen 6 mindset when transferring over to gen 7, which is made clear by all the similar bans and unbans. I personally would've liked to actually get a chance to see if Perish Song and Focus Sash were really banworthy again, but unfortunately that won't be the case.

Not to mention, we seem to be flipping between having species clause and not having it. I personally would be alright with either way, but I just want to be able to settle in to what gen 7 1v1 is, which is part of why I refrained from playing on Showdown very much early gen 7 since I knew everything would be changing constantly, which would have made it difficult to actually learn the meta.

I also have to admit the meta seems remarkably healthy with Mawile gone

The only thing I'm particularly iffy about is Z-moves, specifically Z-attacks. The ability to basically double a standard move's power at will (or use a relatively stronger move with 0 drawbacks in the case of thunder and such) seems questionable, but, since gen 7 1v1 is still fairly fresh, it's likely best to give things a chance to settle and then react to what they become.

Here's hoping that 1v1 will continue to be fun to play for a while :) and that sleep moves under 75 accuracy get banned ;(
Perish Song was unbanned at the very beginning of Gen 7. It sucked and everyone hated it. It got banned again. Who knows? Maybe Focus Sash isn't OP. I've never played with it.

We really ought to get rid of Species Clause. It's pointless in 1v1. It wasn't in gen 6 and was added in gen 7 due to what I assume was an oversight.


If we can decide on Z-moves, I'd like to point out that the five people who I know have gotten rank 1 in gen 7 (ever since you've had to get over 1700 elo to get rank 1) all have had one thing in common: Mega-Gyarados.

Are Z-moves going to be suspected? Or banned? Or anything?


Let me drop some fire sets for you guys. I'll keep the comments brief.




Donphan @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 19 Spe
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Counter
- Head Smash

100% accurate Head Smash that doesn't break Sturdy is everything Donphan has ever wanted. The IVs are to underspeed Aegislash. Ice Shard is very good against other Sturdy pokemon and to finish KOs. Counter does well against physical Choice users as well as to net surprise KOs against, for example, Gyarados that don't Dragon Dance. It is also mandatory in order to have a chance in the mirror.



Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Cannon
- Moonblast
- Scald
- Energy Ball/Shadow Ball/Ice Beam
Beats Mega-Gyarados, Mega-Metagross, Dragonite, Genesect, etc. Once people learn not to activate Torrent, it will beat less things, like Mega-Charizard Y.


Sawk @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Close Combat/Ice Punch/Poison Jab/Thunder Punch/Counter
- Close Combat/Ice Punch/Poison Jab/Thunder Punch/Counter

Beats the Tapus, and has a good chance against Gyarados and Charizards. Fighting is a rare attacking type in 1v1. This is one of the few mons that can use it. Adapt your coverage to the ladder. In my opinion, Earthquake and Stone Edge are too good to pass up.


Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder/Protect/Sludge Bomb/Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Charm
- Synthesis

Charm as a move has become a lot better in gen 7 because Mega-Mawile is unreleased. The Defense EVs are for letting you live +0 Z-move and -2 Rock Wrecker from Crustle. Sleep Powder is probably the weakest option for the flex spot.
 
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Ah yes, let's drop some fun sets! Here are my two current favorites:



Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 240 Def / 172 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Uproar
- Shadow Ball / Hidden Power [Ground] / Filler
- Trick

In my opinion, bulky scarf is Porygon-Z's best set in the current meta. 96 speed investment lets you outpace Modest Tapu Koko, base 110s (Gengar, Jumpluff, Lati@s, Archeops) and slower (Infernape, Keldeo, Garchomp, Landorus-I, Charizard, Slaking, etc). 240 defense investment lets you tank an Adamant Kyurem-B Outrage 100% of the time. Hyper Beam is your go-to point and click to melt most pokemon you face. Uproar 2HKOs Gyarados (and you can tank any hit from +1 Adamant Mega Gyara), bypasses Sub (Whimsicott), and prevents sleep. Shadow Ball hits Psychic and Ghost types, HP Ground hits non-Air Balloon Magnezone and Heatran. You can stick whatever you like in this slot. Trick shuts down stat boosters and walls.



Magearna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 64 HP / 216 SpA / 12 SpD / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]

This fast Magearna outspeeds max speed Modest Magnezone and tanks a Flamethrower from max SpA Modest Specs Genesect. Fleur Cannon is your primary STAB and kills Dragons, Dark types, and Gyarados. Flash Cannon is secondary STAB and 2HKOs non-spDef Mega Venusaur. TBolt is a 3HKO vs Aegislash and a 2HKO vs Celeseteela. HP fire nails Genesect, Magnezone, Ferrothorn, and Scizor.
 
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