Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

There's been some discussion around Necrozma, but I think it would be helpful to post this set.

Necrozma @ Psychium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Prismatic Laser
- Power Gem
- Toxic
- Moonlight

Prismatic Laser + the Z-Crystal are expected things, but the main draw here is actually Toxic. This lures in Mirror Coat and stallers that think they can beat this, and you can turn the tables on them! This single-handledly won the finals of a room tour (which is pretty unimpressive, honestly). And you still have the Psychic type nuke in Z-Prismatic Laser. Power Gem is just there as another attack, and is easily replaceable. I guess it lets it beat Incinearoar and Charizard Y..?

Pros:
-Is a high-powered destroyer of worlds that takes on tons that isn't Dark.
-Prismatic Armor helps take some otherwise fatal hits.
-Can stall out Pyukumuku and physical walls with ease.

Cons:
-Still loses badly to Mega Gyarados and (probably) Kyruem-Black.
-Dark-types in general love to run into this.
-Even with Psychic Terrain, Tapu Lele barely lives Z-Prismatic Laser.

 

[lost heros]

Not necessarily making an argument yet, just posing some questions:





Where does this idea come from, that in some way you must have Z-moves or else we will face this apocalyptic worse-case scenario of Charizard-Gyarados dominance...as though those Pokemon aren't already incredibly common on the ladder? Kentari, weren't you just talking about how Devastating Drake Dragonite is balanced...in part because it loses to Gyarados and Charizard X? Need I remind you all that we just dealt with an entire generation of "Gyarados, Defensive Zard and some other things" and no one considered it an issue then? And that people who wanted them to be considered for bans were laughed at? I don't understand this correlation.

By the way, I might add, we're not even supposed to consider these sorts of post-ban "what-if" scenarios.
And in addition, if you want to avoid "deciding game after game on Mega Charizard X speed ties" and rock-paper-scissors between S Rank Pokemon, the solution is just to use other things besides literally the most common Pokemon in the metagame.

I did poorly word it, but I wasn't trying to say that Z-moves are the only things keeping these pokemon in check, what I was trying to say is that Z-moves allow weaker pokemon to compete better with our known powerhouses.

also



Instead of firing off one 225 BP move turn 1 and doing nothing turn 2, you get a 200 BP one turn 1 and then a 150 BP one turn 2, resulting in a better matchup against stall Pokemon; the same logic applies for Psychium Z Necrozma and such. Don't be so quick to discount the merits of a Z-Crystal.

I understand that, but I'd rather not put all my eggs in one basket so to say as I usually rely on Trick PZ against Stall pokemon as that shuts them down better imo.

No, just no. The answer to Z-moves isn't banning the Pokemon that may seem broken with it. Banning Pokemon after Pokemon due to their Z-moves take less and less from the meta and even after their ban other Pokemon are going to show up using the same Z-move defeating same amount of threats. And all these Pokemon that will be banned (Dragonite, Crustle, Tapu Koko...) mentioned up have one element in common is the usage of a Z-move which clearly shows where the problem comes from. What comes to my mind if in general, Z-moves are broken we should go to the right direction and banning them. But, as seen in the metagame, now all of them are used in the same quantity this is why as a first step I would like to hear opinions on:

• Banning Electrium-Z / Psychium-Z / Dragonium-Z / Normalium-Z.
• Banning other stones.
• Not banning anything.

Also I've seen arguments based on post-ban metagame which shouldn't be really taken into account. Every metagame phase will get judged and tested alone. If Mega Gyarados or Mega Charizard X seem broken or overcentralizing post-ban they will be suspect tested following the philosophy, so this isn't a problem.

Well, if one Pokemon is broken with a specific Z-Crystal then that Pokemon should be banned. If multiple Pokemon are broken with a specific Z-Crystal then that Z-Crystal should be banned. Keep that in mind.

Z-moves are practically indistinguishable from one another. Selectively banning z-crystals would be like banning Choice Band but not Choice Specs. Electrium-Z, Psychium-Z, Dragonium-Z, Normalium-Z are noticeable because of their users not because of any properties of the Z-crystal over another one.

 

[aphrion]

You know, I'm having trouble deciding on Z-moves. On the one hand, they're not always that great - if you resist the typing or get lucky in the matchup, often it won't help the mon out very much and they'll have wasted the item slot and the match - but on the other hand, Z-Smash Crustle beating Mega Gyarados doesn't feel fair or balanced at all to me. This is really the main one that I have a problem with, and the main anecdote I'll relate; Crustle is pretty much too tough to take out in turn 1 because of Sturdy and because its Shuckle typing defends against Mold Breaker STABs pretty easily, but then it also becomes way too fast and strong to deal with once it gets Shell Smash up and uses Continental Crush. LumSmash feels fair, Weakness Policy feels fair, but Rockium-Z really doesn't feel fair or balanced, like 1-2-you're dead? This is entirely subjective and unbalanced writeup, I've yet to try Scarf KyuB, Kartana, or Magnezone (to pick potential examples) against this Crustle set or to scientifically test the strength of other mons and Z-move sets, but so far the impression I've got is that this is a set you have to hard counter or die every time to it, which is unhealthy, and that this employment of Z-moves isn't great either.
So at the end of this whine-a-thon, my main point is that from my experience, either Z-moves are somewhat underpowered for a held-item-nuke or they're really, really overpowered, and figuring out which is which is a pain in the ass. Should we ban viable mons because Rockium-Z makes them way too strong? Does banning only Rockium-Z create a situation where we just move over to Buginium-Z instead? Does removing all Z-stones limit the viability of other mons that can't abuse Z-stones like other mons can? (I have yet to see this last scenario, because why run an inferior mon that's potentially balanced with a Z-move when you can run an abuser?) Two of those questions actually relate to the post-ban metagame, but they're relevant because we're talking about the effects of a very present issue that's super thorny to deal with but not yet established to be broken. However, in my subjective, probably incomplete, and entirely fallible opinion, Z-moves are just a headache that take away from the strategy and enjoyability of the metagame, so right now I'd like to argue that we should BAN Z-MOVES ENTIRELY.

 

[Kentari]

Z-Smash Crustle beating Mega Gyarados doesn't feel fair or balanced at all to me.

Max attack Adamant Gyarados often beats Crustle, unless it is EV'd to live that attack. Mega Gyarados with more than 252 speed will always win by mega evolving and using Dragon Dance.

Edit: Taunt is an auto-win against Crustle.

 

[aphrion]

Max attack Adamant Gyarados often beats Crustle, unless it is EV'd to live that attack. Mega Gyarados with more than 252 speed will always win by mega evolving and using Dragon Dance.

As it turns out, I was indeed running max Attack Adamant Gyarados, though not max speed too - it had invested in special bulk and HP. Now I'm reconsidering Z-moves, though still in favor of removing them. If you can run sweeper Mega Gyarados (basically what Smogon recommends on the tin) and have it always beat Z-Crustle, why bother with Crustle? On the other hand, why allow something that requires you to run certain sets to consistently beat it (aka centralizing the meta)? I mean, there's something to be said about certain mons like Mega Gyarados being OP, but that's something you can study, you can prepare for it intelligently. Z-moves, on the other hand, are a huge wild card, and I don't feel like they're a healthy contribution to the meta. You have to run certain sets to beat specific abusers (and you can't run Trick mons anymore and expect success, either), but otherwise it's kinda disappointing to shoot a nuke at your opponent and watch them stagger a little bit before they kill your Z-mon, and then you think "could I have run Scarf or Band and gotten better results?" The meta's a little too fast to see this very often, but there's also potential to abuse Hyper Beam and Giga Impact and whatnot with Z-moves, as Elo Bandit noted, and I think that's dumb.

 

[DEG]

Z-moves are practically indistinguishable from one another. Selectively banning z-crystals would be like banning Choice Band but not Choice Specs. Electrium-Z, Psychium-Z, Dragonium-Z, Normalium-Z are noticeable because of their users not because of any properties of the Z-crystal over another one.

Not necessary, the crystals that you named do have an edge over others and not only from the user perspective, ofc that matters but what I'm saying is coverage. Electrium-Z, Psychium-Z and Dragonium-Z have great coverage on a good portion of the metagame. Adding to that most of their users are pretty good, say that we ban the main abusers in Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele and Dragonite, what really stops other abuser to appear, Magnezone, Necrozma and Kyurem-Black do we really have to ban all the Pokemon because these specific crystal moves do a lot to the metagame. Banning a Pokemon for the sake of freeing the crystal bearing the Z-move because the Pokemon is broken with it takes on diversity because with the departure of that Pokemon another abuser will appear, then what? We ban all of them until we have poor BST Pokemon or stall mons?

 

[NyneTiNyne]

Mimikyu @ Sitrus Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Curse
- Substitute
- Protect
- Toxic

I got this set from a friend and boooyyy, is it trolly. 4/5 turns and there done, this thing wins against almost any slower pokemon, if you predict right that is. First turn you Curse while they break your Disguise. Next turn you go for Protect, they will now be at 1/2 of there HP. Next two (or three) turns you go for Substitute followed by Protect (and again Substitute if they have tweeked there IV's to live on 1). They will die from the horrible curse that is CurseKyu. Ofcourse the first turn you are susceptible to Status and this is were the predicting comes into play. If you're against a wall that might want to status you, say Chansey for instance, you go for Substitute right away, protecting you from the incoming Toxic. After that you go for Toxic yourself (followed by Curse, why not) and witness how they slowly die from severe poisoning while you are spamming Substitute/Protect.

Set details: The moves are pretty explanatory, you'll need all 4 of them to optimize your match-up against different pokemon. 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Timid nature makes you as fast as possible while also being bulky to take hits if necessary. Sitrus Berry and Leftovers are a toss-up. After +4 turns, Leftovers will get you a higher amount of HP added up than Sitrus Berry, while Sitrus Berry gives you an additional 1/4 HP right after you Curse'd.


Ofcourse there are some things that beat it, either always or with the right predictions.

First of all: Mold Breaker/Teravolt. This is very obvious. Pokemon such as Kyurem-B and Gyarados-Mega beat this set pretty easily, being able to hit through Disguise and at least 2HKO it. I have seen some people that did not mega their Gyarados against Mimikyu first turn, probably expecting an incoming Play Rough. This seems logical as an Adamant Play Rough 2HKO's non-invested Gyarados-Mega 76,6% of the time, even with the Atk-drop, before Gyarados can KO Mimikyu. Most of them go for Dragon Dance though and smack you the second turn with Waterfall, after they did mega-evolve obviously. Unfortunately for Mimikyu, these 2 pokemon are very common so you'll need a partner that is able to check/counter them on your team of 3.

Secondly, we have multi-hit moves such as Rock Blast/Bullet Seed. These moves can break your Disguise/Substitutes with the first 1 or 2 hits and hit you with the following ones, disrupting your strategy.

Set-up moves that raise Speed also disrupt this strategy in some cases. The times you go for Protect, they can technically, if they have it, go for something like Dragon Dance. The next turn they will be faster and if they hit you below 25% you will be screwed as you cannot sub anymore.

And ofcourse any pokemon with >320 Speed will outspeed you, meaning you won't have enough time to Curse and start your Protect/Substitute shenanigans. There is still a chance that you live there attack and they die after 4 turns, but this is unlikely.

 

[lost heros]

Not necessary, the crystals that you named do have an edge over others and not only from the user perspective, ofc that matters but what I'm saying is coverage. Electrium-Z, Psychium-Z and Dragonium-Z have great coverage on a good portion of the metagame. Adding to that most of their users are pretty good, say that we ban the main abusers in Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele and Dragonite, what really stops other abuser to appear, Magnezone, Necrozma and Kyurem-Black do we really have to ban all the Pokemon because these specific crystal moves do a lot to the metagame. Banning a Pokemon for the sake of freeing the crystal bearing the Z-move because the Pokemon is broken with it takes on diversity because with the departure of that Pokemon another abuser will appear, then what? We ban all of them until we have poor BST Pokemon or stall mons?

I think we disagree on how z-abusers appear. Dragonite is an excellent Z-abuser because it has Multiscale that allows its Z-move to compound to insane power because Dragonite can set up. Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele similarly have STAB auto-terrain which makes them have insane power (Tapu Koko also has some dank speed). Even lesser z-users, rely on their ability to compound their Z-powers: Mimikyu has disguise and shadow sneak, Crustle and Magnezone have sturdy, Necrozma has Prism Armor. This is precisely why Gyarados-Mega and Kyurem-B are such powerful threats in the meta right now, their ability prevents Sturdy, Prismatic Armor, Multiscale, etc. You could argue that needing Gyarados-Mega to counter the Z-abuser is proof of centralization because of Z-moves, but I'd argue that it's the centralization of the factors that combine together in to a Z-abuser, the combination of (some not all) strong ability, z-move, speed, bulk, and set-up. Viewing Z-abusers as such makes it more of an individual Pokemon problem rather than a Z-move problem.

 

[aphrion]

I think we disagree on how z-abusers appear. Dragonite is an excellent Z-abuser because it has Multiscale that allows its Z-move to compound to insane power because Dragonite can set up. Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele similarly have STAB auto-terrain which makes them have insane power (Tapu Koko also has some dank speed). Even lesser z-users, rely on their ability to compound their Z-powers: Mimikyu has disguise and shadow sneak, Crustle and Magnezone have sturdy, Necrozma has Prism Armor. This is precisely why Gyarados-Mega and Kyurem-B are such powerful threats in the meta right now, their ability prevents Sturdy, Prismatic Armor, Multiscale, etc. You could argue that needing Gyarados-Mega to counter the Z-abuser is proof of centralization because of Z-moves, but I'd argue that it's the centralization of the factors that combine together in to a Z-abuser, the combination of (some not all) strong ability, z-move, speed, bulk, and set-up. Viewing Z-abusers as such makes it more of an individual Pokemon problem rather than a Z-move problem.

Seems that the "simplest" solution is to ban Z-moves on certain mons, then - they're still viable without Z-moves, but they're broken with Z-moves. Problem is, that's a relatively complex ban, and the fact is that certain Mold Breakers are prevalent for reasons other than having Mold Breaker - look at how strong Mega-Gyarados and Kyurem are even when their abilities don't factor into the battle.

 

[The Immortal]

I'm sorry, but I'm seeing the same problem come up over and over again, and we need to understand the answer to this question:
What breaks Z-Moves?
The combination of powerful offensive Pokemon and high power moves causing fast wins in the 1v1 meta.

Now, I've mentioned a possible solution to this (BST limitations on Z-Moves), but the concept of BST restrictions is too advanced for a new player, so I've simplified this complex ban to something similar to that of Magnet Rise + Electrium Z ban.

A Pokemon cannot have a move with power 100 or greater with a corresponding Z-Stone.

This solution creates the most balanced metagame (remember, with power limitations, Choice items become stronger offensively, and fairly equal to Z-Stones in viability).
On top of that, anyone could figure out Hyper Beam is too powerful to be Z-Moved.

Thank you, and I'd love it if you show everyone whether or not you'd be fine with this to be a rule by leaving a like on this suggestion.

Just stop.

 

[The Immortal]

I'm sorry, what did I do wrong :(? I'm positively participating in this thread, but I can remove these posts if you don't like them.

You are proposing ridiculous clauses which is not helping. The only thing it's doing is diverting the topic because people are simply going to respond to you telling you that your idea is bad rather than continuing the 1v1 suspect discussion. This happened with your last post as well, which I deleted.

Please read DEG's philosophy post on page 1, and you might as well read the OU tiering policy since you want to contribute to Smogon.

 

[1vI]

Will do! In my defense however, I had many people say my second suggestion was reasonable.
Thanks and sorry!

On that note, let me help carry on discussion..
I'd like to make a point that beyond insane damage and set variety, I literally slapped a Rockium Z on my Head Smash Donphan and it's usefulness skyrocketed beyond Endeavor Ice Shard, and it easily got me to #2 in a few hours on it's own (except against Gyarados and similar, I ran Genesect).
My point is that Z-Stones immediately improve the power of nearly (pretty much every) Pokemon you put them on, especially those already powerful.
Because of this, I believe Z-Stones are FAR too centralizing, even more than specific Pokemon like Mega Salamence, and honestly impossible to completely beat.
Partically because of this reason, I believe we should ban specific Z-Stones, (certain types have far less threat using Z-Stones, like Bug lol)

Did I do it TI? o-o

 

[Elo Bandit]

My final current stance on Z stones: If the choice is between banning all Z stones or no Z stones, I'd say ban all Z stones.

If we go to specifics, I'd advocate for banning Rockium Z, Dragonium Z, and Psychium Z since I think Dragonite, Crustle, Tapu Lele and Necrozma are far too powerful and overcentrilizing - and they force people to either use them or use their best counter, aka Mega Gyarados.

I don't think Electrium Z pushes Tapu Koko to the point of being OP - he's exactly on par with Specs Magnezone. I don't think Normalium Z truly breaks anyone, especially since Custap berry is unreleased and Porygon Z can't bluff it. I don't think Ghostium Z or Fairium Z are overpowered on Mimikyu. Yes, it's a somewhat unpredictable pokemon but it's just not powerful enough to warrant a ban on it's Z moves. If you absolutely must, ban only Ghostium Z so it's forced to choose between offensive Twinkle Tackle and defensive CurseSub.

Edit: miscalc'd Tapu Koko, turns out he deals way more damage than specs 'Zone, while still having tons of other move options. Definitely banworthy in my opinion.

BAN: Rockium Z, Dragonium Z, Psychium Z, Electrium Z
IMPARTIAL: Normalium Z, Ghostium Z
DO NOT BAN: Electrium Z, all other Z stones

 

[ARandomNoob]

Why am I not at all surprised to see a lot of people who share my exact sentiment coming in here?

After losing game after game to "lolZMove" I'm sick and fucking tired of it. Actual strategizing and such are thrown completely out the window in favor of "loldropthenuke" to which the only answer is slap protect on everything you own or get a Prankster with Substitute, which forces one of two things:
A) You only run things that want protect anyway or have Prankster (severely limits teambuilding)
B) You make things that don't necessarily have space for Protect run it (gimps your potential in battle.)
Furthermore, they can be executed at literally any time, so even if low ladder peons love to just burn them turn 1 because they OHKO 90% of the time, it's impossible to predict when they will be used, and fucking up once gives your opponent a platinum opportunity to nuke your ass to heaven and hell and back unless you get lucky enough to pull of a Scumbag Double Protect (and let's face it, a 1/3 shot to be able to survive a nuke move is kiiiinda fuckin shit), and thats assuming they even use it then, which you don't know because they may very well be a Nice Person who isnt running a Z-Crystal.

Probably the one Pokemon who cant make themselves useful with a Z-move instantly is Wobbuffet, because lol like fuck shattered psyche is doing jack with those stats (Z-Mirror Coat did 19% to a physical wall Gliscor, lmao). Well, him and the likes of Unown, Magikarp, Wimpod, and Pyukumuku.

So in short, the only pokemon who doesnt get better with a Z-move that's truly viable anyway is literally Pyukumuku, they are 90% impossible to predict with the other 10% mostly being low ladder scrubs who will burn it Turn 1, and they're able to easily OHKO.

My other issue is Pheromosa. I'm sure we go by some semblance of the OU banlist in terms of Pokemon, but I have literally no clue why Phero was not given the boot from OU when Aegi got it, as the poor sword was one of the few things that kept Ms Legs For Days from running the meta, some may say it was the only reliable one (Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, who almost entirely rely upon revenge killing it, cannot be considered reliable as Phero can easily switch out, get rid of either, then come back in and continue). In 1v1, this fucker is even more devastating. Sure, she has Aegislash around, but in 1v1, thats 1/3 your team, which is quite a hefty investment for ONE pokemon out of potentially hundreds. Mega Pinsir doesn't become any better a check or counter-arguably, one could say it gets worse, as Pinsir will have no way to break Sash before Phero shoots its ass out of the sky with ice beam. Talonflame doesnt fare much better either post GW nerf, as it can no longer outspeed after it takes a hit from phero. And, of course, long as Z-Crystals are around, this fucker can pack all out pummeling because it packs none of HJK's risks for all the more power behind it, because fuck you its goldnharl's wife or some shit idfk. Point is it's just a little not okay.

 

[DEG]

Why am I not at all surprised to see a lot of people who share my exact sentiment coming in here?

After losing game after game to "lolZMove" I'm sick and fucking tired of it. Actual strategizing and such are thrown completely out the window in favor of "loldropthenuke" to which the only answer is slap protect on everything you own or get a Prankster with Substitute, which forces one of two things:
A) You only run things that want protect anyway or have Prankster (severely limits teambuilding)
B) You make things that don't necessarily have space for Protect run it (gimps your potential in battle.)
Furthermore, they can be executed at literally any time, so even if low ladder peons love to just burn them turn 1 because they OHKO 90% of the time, it's impossible to predict when they will be used, and fucking up once gives your opponent a platinum opportunity to nuke your ass to heaven and hell and back unless you get lucky enough to pull of a Scumbag Double Protect (and let's face it, a 1/3 shot to be able to survive a nuke move is kiiiinda fuckin shit), and thats assuming they even use it then, which you don't know because they may very well be a Nice Person who isnt running a Z-Crystal.

Probably the one Pokemon who cant make themselves useful with a Z-move instantly is Wobbuffet, because lol like fuck shattered psyche is doing jack with those stats (Z-Mirror Coat did 19% to a physical wall Gliscor, lmao). Well, him and the likes of Unown, Magikarp, Wimpod, and Pyukumuku.

So in short, the only pokemon who doesnt get better with a Z-move that's truly viable anyway is literally Pyukumuku, they are 90% impossible to predict with the other 10% mostly being low ladder scrubs who will burn it Turn 1, and they're able to easily OHKO.

My other issue is Pheromosa. I'm sure we go by some semblance of the OU banlist in terms of Pokemon, but I have literally no clue why Phero was not given the boot from OU when Aegi got it, as the poor sword was one of the few things that kept Ms Legs For Days from running the meta, some may say it was the only reliable one (Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, who almost entirely rely upon revenge killing it, cannot be considered reliable as Phero can easily switch out, get rid of either, then come back in and continue). In 1v1, this fucker is even more devastating. Sure, she has Aegislash around, but in 1v1, thats 1/3 your team, which is quite a hefty investment for ONE pokemon out of potentially hundreds. Mega Pinsir doesn't become any better a check or counter-arguably, one could say it gets worse, as Pinsir will have no way to break Sash before Phero shoots its ass out of the sky with ice beam. Talonflame doesnt fare much better either post GW nerf, as it can no longer outspeed after it takes a hit from phero. And, of course, long as Z-Crystals are around, this fucker can pack all out pummeling because it packs none of HJK's risks for all the more power behind it, because fuck you its goldnharl's wife or some shit idfk. Point is it's just a little not okay.

I recommend you to play 1v1 more before posting on the thread. Many people think that Z-moves are broken yes but please provide more clear and organized arguments, and what was that last paragraph? First of all, Focus Sash isn't allowed in 1v1 so Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are great checks for Pheromosa. Secondly, it isn't even broken there's lot of checks in 1v1 and a lot of things do run Choice Scarf, Mega Gyarados both Mega Charizard beat Pheromosa with some defensive investment which is needed nowadays and that's only some from all its checks.

 

[Kentari]

How can we ban Z-moves if none of the pokemon that use Z-moves are better than Mega-Charizard-X and Mega-Gyarados? I don't see how something can be banned for being broken and over-centralizing when something more broken and over-centralizing is not banned.

I don't think Electrium Z pushes Tapu Koko to the point of being OP - he's exactly on par with Specs Magnezone.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 568-669 (226.2 - 266.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is with 185 base power Thunder aka Gigavolt Impact. Using Choice Specs is the same as getting an electric terrain boost. The pokemon showdown damage calculator doesn't take into account electric terrain right now.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 345-406 (137.4 - 161.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tapu Koko can change moves and use stuff like Taunt and Calm Mind. Plus, it beats Gyarados 100% of the time. I wouldn't say they are exactly on par with each other.

Also,

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Heavy Slam
- Flamethrower/Giga Drain

Beats a lot of pokemon that don't have either a special or STAB fire or electric move. Leech Seed/Protect lets you stall a lot pokemon. Heavy Slam is STAB and has 120 BP against most pokemon that aren't Mega-Gyarados or Kyurem-Black. Flamethrower lets you beat steel types and grass types more easily, especially Ferrothorn. Giga Drain guarantees you the win on Mega-Gyarados.
Even pokemon that run super effective coverage, like Garchomp and Bewear can't break through it. Leech seed is nice because it can also beat stuff that needs utility moves to beat like counter/coat mons and FEAR. Also, you can't be toxic'd. Recovery generally beats this pokemon.

 

[Elo Bandit]

How can we ban Z-moves if none of the pokemon that use Z-moves are better than Mega-Charizard-X and Mega-Gyarados? I don't see how something can be banned for being broken and over-centralizing when something more broken and over-centralizing is not banned.




252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 568-669 (226.2 - 266.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is with 185 base power Thunder aka Gigavolt Impact. Using Choice Specs is the same as getting an electric terrain boost. The pokemon showdown damage calculator doesn't take into account electric terrain right now.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eevee: 345-406 (137.4 - 161.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tapu Koko can change moves and use stuff like Taunt and Calm Mind. Plus, it beats Gyarados 100% of the time. I wouldn't say they are exactly on par with each other.

Also,

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Heavy Slam
- Flamethrower/Giga Drain

Beats a lot of pokemon that don't have either a special or STAB fire or electric move. Leech Seed/Protect lets you stall a lot pokemon. Heavy Slam is STAB and has 120 BP against most pokemon that aren't Mega-Gyarados or Kyurem-Black. Flamethrower lets you beat steel types and grass types more easily, especially Ferrothorn. Giga Drain guarantees you the win on Mega-Gyarados.
Even pokemon that run super effective coverage, like Garchomp and Bewear can't break through it. Leech seed is nice because it can also beat stuff that needs utility moves to beat like counter/coat mons and FEAR. Also, you can't be toxic'd. Recovery generally beats this pokemon.

Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X are so overcentrilizing right now because of all the Z-mons running around. DD MGyarados is the best consistent check to Rockuim Crustle and other Sturdy Z mons, and he's got a favorable matchup vs Dragonium Dragonite. Bulky Zard X is also, as we've established, a very good Z-nite check as well. He can also tank Koko's Gigavolt Havoc. Lowering the power of these mons by removing Z stones will mean less people are shoehorned into including Gyara or Zard while teambuilding. As we've seen in past gens, Charizard and Gyarados are both extremely strong forces in the 1v1 metagame no matter what, but they can be very easily built around, and are therefor not overcentrilizing. People EV whatever pokemon they'd like to survive a +1 Waterfall or an Adamant Zard Outrage, or to outspeed by one point, because these pokemon are so common. Though he's slightly less relevant this gen, we see the exact same thing with Kyurem Black. The stronger a pokemon is, the more popular it is, and the more people change their teams ever so slightly to beat it.

Good catch on the Tapu Koko calc. I did not realize that the Showdown Calculator didn't account for Electric Terrain boosts. You're correct that Tapu Koko hits significantly harder than specs Magnezone (though most Koko run Timid, not Modest). I'll definitely re-think my position on Koko's viability and the potential ban of Electrium Z.

 

[Johnny Warlord]

Just in case you thought you were unlucky: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-497606039
6 double protects in a row to lose to pp stall :(

 

[aphrion]

My final stance on Z stones: If the choice is between banning all Z stones or no Z stones, I'd say ban all Z stones.

If we go to specifics, I'd advocate for banning Rockium Z, Dragonium Z, and Psychium Z since I think Dragonite, Crustle, Tapu Lele and Necrozma are far too powerful and overcentrilizing - and they force people to either use them or use their best counter, aka Mega Gyarados.

I don't think Electrium Z pushes Tapu Koko to the point of being OP - he's exactly on par with Specs Magnezone. I don't think Normalium Z truly breaks anyone, especially since Custap berry is unreleased and Porygon Z can't bluff it. I don't think Ghostium Z or Fairium Z are overpowered on Mimikyu. Yes, it's a somewhat unpredictable pokemon but it's just not powerful enough to warrant a ban on it's Z moves. If you absolutely must, ban only Ghostium Z so it's forced to choose between offensive Twinkle Tackle and defensive CurseSub.

BAN: Rockium Z, Dragonium Z, Psychium Z
IMPARTIAL: Normalium Z, Ghostium Z
DO NOT BAN: Electrium Z, all other Z stones

*sees "impartial"*

I legitimately thought you were using the wrong word before, but then I took a better look and just decided to be funny anyways. In all seriousness, I think it's just that certain mons can't hold those broken Z-Crystals, other mons aren't broken with them. That would be kind of a complex ban, however.

As for your argument, Kentari, Elo beat me to the punch in saying that MegaZardX and Mega Gyarados are overcentralizing because they're so great at dealing with Z-move cancer. Creativity can happen in this gen - I've successfully run Life Orb Noivern because Hyper Voice Mega Garde is not a thing right now and I needed a better way to bypass Substitute than Sylveon - so once we take out the ridiculousness that is Z-moves, we can do ore interesting things.

 

[ARandomNoob]

I recommend you to play 1v1 more before posting on the thread. Many people think that Z-moves are broken yes but please provide more clear and organized arguments, and what was that last paragraph? First of all, Focus Sash isn't allowed in 1v1 so Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are great checks for Pheromosa. Secondly, it isn't even broken there's lot of checks in 1v1 and a lot of things do run Choice Scarf, Mega Gyarados both Mega Charizard beat Pheromosa with some defensive investment which is needed nowadays and that's only some from all its checks.

Oh dear me sorry for venting my frustration at 4 in the morning when the thing I'm using to take a break from writing a paper is just making me more stressed and tired and not writing a pulitzer prize winner for you. Kindly sod off with the dismissive attitude. Anyway yes perhaps I just ran into one too many ice beam pheromosas that just so happened to counter my entire team at the time, and, tired and frustrated frustrated at the cancer it already is in OU, I got irrationally angry at it. That's on me. But if you're not even going to give a proper criticism of my points about Z-Moves at the very least, I think we're done talking. I came here to engage in discussion, not be dismissed out of hand.

Anyway this has soured my mood real nice. Now, in the interest of having this post have any content of note, in my opinion, if two things noted for already being overcentralizing are becoming even more dominant for the sole reason that they are the only things capable of handling Z-Moves, that tells me Z-Moves are problematic. They're putting pressure around the wound rather than on it, so to speak. The former makes bleeding worse rather than making it stop. Adding weight to the centralizing Zard and MeGyara are already doing is by no means healthy, because if everyone's running one of the two to counterplay something, that means I can teambuild with relative certainty of their presence, meaning that if I'm dedicated enough, I can finagle myself a Gyarabuster or Zardbuster (and believe me I've seen people with the dedication to hash this out for the likes of Lucario) and be able to use them fairly often. Essentially, anti-meta play becomes much more feasible and reliable.

In short, overcentralization is bad, making it worse opens more cans of worms.

 

[Elo Bandit]

Hey check it out, I made a tier list video (unofficial, of course). Tell me what you think and don't be afraid to disagree with my rankings!

EDIT: Also, here's the Mega Gyarados analysis video I made!

 

[1vI]

Just for now, heres couple pokes I didnt see in the video that I remember having various major and minor appearances (some could be my mistake):
Metagross-Mega (S- Rank IMO)
Landorus
Entei
Sawk
Klefki
Wishiwashi
Slaking
ZPsychUP Regigigas (dumb gimmick lol)

.... and I'll add more as I find them
And some other I haven't seen or used yet but could expect in the future
Tyranitar
Mew
Avalugg

Finally, I am experimenting with certain Pokémon that are surprisingly quite powerful, and I can post on them later. Nice vid Elo Bandit :)
Btw, what is the accuracy boost on zmoves?

 

[Elo Bandit]

Just for now, heres couple pokes I didnt see in the video that I remember having various major and minor appearances (some could be my mistake):
Metagross-Mega (S- Rank IMO)
Landorus
Entei
Sawk
Klefki
Wishiwashi
Slaking
ZPsychUP Regigigas (dumb gimmick lol)

.... and I'll add more as I find them
And some other I haven't seen or used yet but could expect in the future
Tyranitar
Mew
Avalugg

Finally, I am experimenting with certain Pokémon that are surprisingly quite powerful, and I can post on them later. Nice vid Elo Bandit :)
Btw, what is the accuracy boost on zmoves?

Ah, my bad. I forgot a couple pokemon. I'd stick MMetagross at A+, Entei at B+, Sawk gets dropped to C- because Custap Berry is unreleased and he's forced into Band, Klefki is somewhere around B, I haven't seen enough Wishiwashi to rank it accurately, Slaking is B-/C+ since he's so weak to Protect/Sub/Endure but otherwise hits really hard. I've never heard of Psych Up Regigigas, could you send me the set?

Sadly there's no mega TTar, but non-mega is a mid to low tier mon imo, Mew has some interesting defensive sets but nothing that would get it above a B ranking, and Avalugg also took a hit this gen - can't use Custap Recover combo and is forced into Weakness Policy. I'd call it a C+ or a C.

I'm terribly sorry, but I can't find a source on the accuracy of Z-sleep moves. From personal experience, it seems more reliable than landing Will-O-Wisp, but the sample size of a single player isn't enough to confirm an accuracy number. I think it's around 90, but I wish I could find a source to know for sure.

 

[Nalei]

I've been hearing a lot of talk about Mimikyu, but rarely clarifying any sets, so I thought I'd put my favorite Mimikyu set here.
Mimikyu @ Fairium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 200 HP / 172 Atk / 96 Def / 40 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
Compared to the other bulky set I've been seeing, this thing manages to beat several pokemon that it can't. It's able to beat both the bulky and the offensive variant of Charizard X due to its ability to live a Flare Blitz from the offensive Variant and OHKO back with a +2 Twinkle Tackle and can block WoW from defensive variants with 40 Spe EVs+Sub. Against Mega Gyarados, the 252 HP EV spread usually loses to the Adamant variants.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 295-348 (93.9 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
However, with this EV spread, Mimikyu survives 80% of the time.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 200 HP / 96 Def Mimikyu: 262-310 (87 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Shadow Sneak is used as it allows Mimikyu to pinch the KO vs some speedy wallbreakers after a Twinkle Tackle such as Tapu Koko and Landorus-I. A set utilizing Ghostium-Z Shadow Claw could also be very effective, and as everyone has been saying, it can be hard to predict which Z-move Mimikyu is running. I peaked #27 on the 1v1 ladder using this, but I didn't build it around Mimikyu, I built it around a pokemon no one has touched on yet in this forum: Togedemaru.
Togedemaru @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Zing Zap
- Reversal
- Nuzzle
- Spiky Shield
Togedemaru was blessed with the ever popular Sturdy, allowing it to survive hits it otherwise wouldn't on 1 HP. How to use: take a hit, Nuzzle, Reversal. Togedemaru is a surprisingly good pokemon and I'd recommend you try it out if you want to use something a little bit spicy.

 

[Kentari]

what is the accuracy boost on zmoves?

There isn't one on status moves. Damage Z-Moves have perfect accuracy, but status Z-Moves have the same accuracy their base moves have.

Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Reflect
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind

Z-Reflect is really good. XSTATIC COLD came up with the idea. You can choose between using Barrier or Psychic Hyper Beam depending on your matchup. The flexibility is very nice. Thunderbolt and Calm Mind are your adaptable slots. They can be any combination of coverage moves or utility moves. Moonblast, Substitute, Focus Blast, Grass Knot, HP Fire, Taunt, etc. are all good options.