Which is incorrect, so I intend to look into fixing it so you only get your HP restored.
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Metagame STABmons
- Thread starter Funbot28
- Start date
Im pretty sure that's what he meant lol
Ah, I'll have to keep that in mind for the future... thanks for pointing it out.
But yes, Z-Parting Shot is still great, even without status healing, which is more of a bonus than anything else. (Heal Bell support is especially easy to find in STABmons. Want a Heal Bell Drampa? Go for it!)
Gotta agree here honestly. Quickbans are reserved for things that are stupidly op, ie 100% zygarde. I understand wanting to ban as quick as possible to balance the metagame, don't get me wrong, but it is just a bad idea and the metagame isn't given proper time to see if it can adapt.
You want a proposal? Kings rock, razor fang, chatter, sketch, shell smash, and geomancy remain banned. Shift gear is a possibility too. Metagrossite, acupressure, and thousand arrows should not have been quick banned at all though. I understand why two (acupressure ban period has always been very stupid to me including last gen but regardless it's certainly not quickban worthy) of them look broken; heavy slam shift gear metagross ends lives. In the end I expect one of shift gear and metagrossite will have to go, but almost definitely not both. Metagross still has its checks and shift gear still isn't a huge gain. A lot of new fairies may be here but so are new metagross answers along with shore up. It absolutely still MAY be broken but the point of quick bans is to remove stuff that's insanely good and/or chokeholds the metagame. Look at how ou has handled quickbans; aegislash was on almost every team and controlled the entire meta. Lando-i is a stupid wallbreaker that can also sweep and set hazards if it wishes to. Both of these are leagues above metagrossite, acupressure, thousand arrows, and shift gear. Ou even has fucking Pheromosa legal which is a deoxys with u turn and less coverage (shoutout toxapex) which is clearly very strong, because they're giving it a fair shot. Give mega metagross and thousand arrows a shot.
As for the new quick ban list: I don't think belly drum is on the quick ban level, it is hard to set up and sweeping isn't exactly free with any of the sweepers. Give silvally and the new Z-moves a shot, they are very powerful but they're new this gen and deserve to be explored and develop. They are not good enough to warrant a quick ban: silvally's 95s are not amazing in any aspect and while a +1 everywhere is strong youre still running a shitty move in a slot as well as an item in order to do that. Z conversion MIGHT an exception though as changing your type can be scary. Mega aero should probably go though as it is very stupid and just kills what it wants. That one I'll give you.
You want a proposal? Kings rock, razor fang, chatter, sketch, shell smash, and geomancy remain banned. Shift gear is a possibility too. Metagrossite, acupressure, and thousand arrows should not have been quick banned at all though. I understand why two (acupressure ban period has always been very stupid to me including last gen but regardless it's certainly not quickban worthy) of them look broken; heavy slam shift gear metagross ends lives. In the end I expect one of shift gear and metagrossite will have to go, but almost definitely not both. Metagross still has its checks and shift gear still isn't a huge gain. A lot of new fairies may be here but so are new metagross answers along with shore up. It absolutely still MAY be broken but the point of quick bans is to remove stuff that's insanely good and/or chokeholds the metagame. Look at how ou has handled quickbans; aegislash was on almost every team and controlled the entire meta. Lando-i is a stupid wallbreaker that can also sweep and set hazards if it wishes to. Both of these are leagues above metagrossite, acupressure, thousand arrows, and shift gear. Ou even has fucking Pheromosa legal which is a deoxys with u turn and less coverage (shoutout toxapex) which is clearly very strong, because they're giving it a fair shot. Give mega metagross and thousand arrows a shot.
As for the new quick ban list: I don't think belly drum is on the quick ban level, it is hard to set up and sweeping isn't exactly free with any of the sweepers. Give silvally and the new Z-moves a shot, they are very powerful but they're new this gen and deserve to be explored and develop. They are not good enough to warrant a quick ban: silvally's 95s are not amazing in any aspect and while a +1 everywhere is strong youre still running a shitty move in a slot as well as an item in order to do that. Z conversion MIGHT an exception though as changing your type can be scary. Mega aero should probably go though as it is very stupid and just kills what it wants. That one I'll give you.
Grass and Bug types resist Ground, but most abusers of Thousand Arrows have a way to pass them. I guess physically defensive or Coil Mega venusaur with Strength Sap can deal pretty much with Thousand Arrows.
Btw Power Trip Muk Alola and Tyranitar mess with you?
I find this mon that works pretty nicely against them:
Magearna @ Shuca Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heart Swap
- Moonlight
- Moonblast
- Volt Switch
Thanks to its typing, as long as they don't carry Ground (unless you carry Shuca Berry but be careful to not come too late though) or Fire type coverage (Muk Alola never runs any so you handle it very well, Ttar can carry some but then it lacks recovery) Magearna can switch in, take the Power Trip and Heart Swap to steal the stats to weaken Power Trip to almost no damage. Then you have the choice between Moonblast them or Volt Switch out, it may not be a perfect choice, but it works.
Btw Power Trip Muk Alola and Tyranitar mess with you?
I find this mon that works pretty nicely against them:
Magearna @ Shuca Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heart Swap
- Moonlight
- Moonblast
- Volt Switch
Thanks to its typing, as long as they don't carry Ground (unless you carry Shuca Berry but be careful to not come too late though) or Fire type coverage (Muk Alola never runs any so you handle it very well, Ttar can carry some but then it lacks recovery) Magearna can switch in, take the Power Trip and Heart Swap to steal the stats to weaken Power Trip to almost no damage. Then you have the choice between Moonblast them or Volt Switch out, it may not be a perfect choice, but it works.
lando-t is not banned...?
e; oh its banned on ladder you werent talking to me lol
and you are viewing it in an awful way. 'what counters thousand arrows'; its a move...? this is a metagame where lots of things dont have counters...? i guess technically you want me to say ground and bug types but i dont get why moves are expected to have counters lmao. checks and counters are annoying terms to begin with and are intended for mons, not moves. i dont even understand what youre trying to say. you can theorymon about every ground being broken with tarrows if you want to but it would remain just that, theorymon, because you quick banned a new move that was never given the opportunity to be tested. maybe thousand arrows would be broken with its amazing coverage, who knows. 90 bp is very underwhelming though, and with how ridiculously good rotom forms have gotten i dont think something else to punish them is even a bad thing (in fact, rotom-w might even be suspect worthy down the road but thats a different discussion). i understand why there is the thought to quickban tarrows: it has amazing coverage. however, its 90 bp, setup sweepers using it have to use a 90 bp move as their sweeping move which will fall short in a lot of cases as opposed to their other option in ppblades (or eq as a compromise), an it also means they dont have space for twaves to trap and setup on something unexpecting (more niche but will definitely be a sleeper threat). if your wallbreaker is using tarrows, again, its great that you hit a lot of ground checks neutrally but its still a 90 bp move which just isnt enough. 90 to 120 is a HUGE difference. this changes things in that skarm is no longer a great ground check for example.
maybe tarrows will break mega chomp. maybe shore up will break mega chomp, tarrows isnt necessarily the culprit. maybe chomp will just be broken in gen 7 stabmons. maybe it wont be brokenperiod, though unlikely, who knows! other offensive ground types will improve a lot but thats due to ALL their new tools, not just tarrows. thousand arrows is a new tool gen 7 gave and i think its about 75% likely to be broken and end up banned, but for a quickban it should be something like 99%. it is a new tool this gen that hasnt had time to develop and we should absolutely give it a chance.
im not arguing tarrows is balanced, i cant do that because i havent had enough time to play with it. i am arguing it is not broken enough to be quickban worthy.
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That's not something that works. Asking what counters thousand arrows is like asking what counters Dragon Dance. Counters exist solely for sets and Pokémon - no Pokémon counters, say, all users of stone edge, or earthquake, or even something like extreme speed. Sure, there are Pokémon that don't mind taking the move, but many of them don't want to come in on whatever carries it. If you could reliably blanket answer an that many Pokémon to the point of countering with one set, you'd be banned in about 3 minutes for brokenness. As far as abusers go, if any given one is broken, then the obvious answer is obvious. As far as answers to individual abusers go, most are walled by Mega Slowbro, Type Null does well against many of them, Hippowdon is decent, etc.
I mean give that this is STABmons, you could rephrase it as "what counters offensive Ground types if you can no longer switch in flying types?" and the point still stands. It's fairly different from DD.
(no, I'm not getting into a debate about how Lando checks are different from Exca checks, etc. Just putting this out there.)
(no, I'm not getting into a debate about how Lando checks are different from Exca checks, etc. Just putting this out there.)
Lando-T and Garchomp are not broken because they can be countered by Levitators/Flying types (among some others) but Thousand Arrows invalidates that. The move is the culprit, not the mon.
You didn't even answer the question tho Josh , regardless of how I worded it. "What counters the main users of Thousand Arrows?" And no I'm not arguing about Stunfisk (like GoS tried to say in the OM chat; nice strawman) just like I wouldn't argue that Shift Gear breaks Bronzor.
Seriously, throughout these arguments about our QB choices I've yet to see an honest to god good reason why they shouldn't have been banned other than "Let me test that real quick." Well we did test it and found these elements to be very difficult to manage even in the early days of the metagame.
Also I'm just gonna leave a note I told josh on Discord:
QT - as we saw in the chat, Mega Bro is a shaky check if your opp is running Banded Landot but generally it does fare well. However, relying on megas, let alone a subpar one atm, isn't advisable. Type Null/P2 are decent options, yes. Hippowdon? Well I'd rather use Mudsdale. Both can shuffle or Toxic and heal. Without Toxic, however, they're sitting ducks in the long run and Mega Chomp gives no fucks about your Toxic attempts.
You didn't even answer the question tho Josh , regardless of how I worded it. "What counters the main users of Thousand Arrows?" And no I'm not arguing about Stunfisk (like GoS tried to say in the OM chat; nice strawman) just like I wouldn't argue that Shift Gear breaks Bronzor.
Seriously, throughout these arguments about our QB choices I've yet to see an honest to god good reason why they shouldn't have been banned other than "Let me test that real quick." Well we did test it and found these elements to be very difficult to manage even in the early days of the metagame.
Also I'm just gonna leave a note I told josh on Discord:
Eevee General-Today at 12:58 PM
thing is, I'm annoyed with ppl complaining who don't play
or who aren't invested in the long run
This ladder has a short shelf life. Sorry you didn't get to abuse broken element X, Y, & Z longer but there are players who are invested and want things to be squared away as quickly as possible. We haven't even got to full trapping moves yet and those are fucking annoying as fuck. Getting stuck on Mega Metagross or Tarrows because you found a random bulkmon that works sometimes isn't doing us any favors. Please. We have a ton of ground to cover.thing is, I'm annoyed with ppl complaining who don't play
or who aren't invested in the long run
Wow. Actual Pokemon.
QT - as we saw in the chat, Mega Bro is a shaky check if your opp is running Banded Landot but generally it does fare well. However, relying on megas, let alone a subpar one atm, isn't advisable. Type Null/P2 are decent options, yes. Hippowdon? Well I'd rather use Mudsdale. Both can shuffle or Toxic and heal. Without Toxic, however, they're sitting ducks in the long run and Mega Chomp gives no fucks about your Toxic attempts.
lol
i cant argue with you if you have that mindset. if you want to quickban everything that is suspect TEST worthy just because your ladder is only 30 days and you want to rush the process then thats your perogative. its wrong, but whatever.
aerodactyl would be checkable but head smash invalidates that.
metagross would be only decent but heavy slam invalidates that.
*insert pokemon here that gets past a group of checks and counters with one of its move* but that move invalidates that.
previously ground types were checked or countered by skarm, togekiss, and whatever other airborn mon. now they arent countered (some still check some fairly well). its the same as a type chart change in essence. thousand arrows is 90 bp, directly outclassed by earthquake and on sweepers super outclassed by ppblades. you use it to remove some mons ability to check/counter you and in exchange you are weaker against everything else you used your main stab move on. times change, things change. thousand arrows might be the culprit, im not even denying that. it is definitely not super over the top broken though. chomp may be broken with it and even possibly lando-t (doubt it) but lando is one of the best mons in almost every metagame and chomp is already buffed via dd and shore up. pinpointing the move that is the most unique is reasonable but i dont think the move is the culprit and i think banning it so quick was preemptive and unjust.
regardless, you're trying to roll out bans quickly while you have a ladder. if your goal is just to nuke shit as fast as possible then im not surprised tarrows is gone, but its an objectively wrong choice to quickban. im done arguing this topic though, ive said my piece.
You've been given reasons that multiple people concede with, you choose to dismiss them because you personally believe the bans to be justifiable.
A council servers the community. It's not your job as a council to shape Stabmons into the metagame most ideal to you. Councils are supposed to serve the community, not the council members. The community is speaking up against the decisions made by the council and you're dismissing it. The right thing to do here is to show the community that you're listening to them by undoing the quick-bans on everything but Chatter, Sketch, Shell Smash, Geomancy and Shift gear.
Josh is spitting hot fire right now, listen to what he's saying dude. He's making a ton of good points...
A council servers the community. It's not your job as a council to shape Stabmons into the metagame most ideal to you. Councils are supposed to serve the community, not the council members. The community is speaking up against the decisions made by the council and you're dismissing it. The right thing to do here is to show the community that you're listening to them by undoing the quick-bans on everything but Chatter, Sketch, Shell Smash, Geomancy and Shift gear.
Josh is spitting hot fire right now, listen to what he's saying dude. He's making a ton of good points...
Alright. My finals and interviews have cooled down for the most part, and it seems like I've come back to a war zone. Hopefully I can provide a bit of insight into why I voted/nommed the way I did. And hopefully this goes back to actually useful discussion on what is (not) broken and why.
I understand that these "quickbans" might seem quick to some people, but from the council's perspective we've been discussing them since the first week of October along with the initial banlist. After a long discussion we decided to clear the whole banlist bar luck-based things like King's Rock and Accupressure and make some rapid decisions once the metagame itself rolled out on what was still broken, with a keen eye on anything that was previously banned. I personally didn't, and still don't see any metagame trends that make the big setup moves any less potent than they were last gen, particularly with the rise of fairies making sableye harder to justify and the general power creep making unaware mons less effective. In my mind, that along with the fact that either they or almost all of their best abusers were banned in the last 3 iterations of STABmons led me to decide that they were still broken and should be quickbanned. I don't see anyone arguing that these should be unbanned, so I'm going to assume people are on board with at least this much of my line of reasoning.
Moving onto 1k Arrows. I played about 50-60 games against people in a mock up of what gen7 STABmons would look like with the gen6 banlist + the new mons and moves in November in a combination of tours and private matches. Easily a third of those games came down to [offensive ground type] sweeping with 1k arrows. Fissure, Funbot, and Betathunder can attest to this, since they were the main people I was playing against. This set off a red flag for me, so I played a bunch more games once the metagame came out for real, and lo and behold the same thing was happening. I'm personally a fan of concise banlists, so it didn't even cross my mind to test lando, garchomp, garchompite, excadrill, etc., since to me it was clear that they were broken due to their newfound 1-move coverage in conjunction with them all being naturally good pokemon that have options to beat the 4 pokemon that actually resist it (Celebi, Tapu Bulu, Buzzwole, and [fudge factor]). I thought that the cleanest thing to do would be to take that new toy away and put them back into their already powerful, but definitely manageable state.
And finally MegaGross. This thing is really dumb to play against if you want to switch into it. Skarmory is a hard-counter, no questions. I wouldn't count anything else in that list. I'll try to dig through my replays to find HP Fire MMeta smashing through a scizor if I get the time, but 105 SpA is nothing to scoff at for mixed tech (before you tell me it's dumb, it kills sciz, ferro, forre, and chunks skarm without worrying about KS). Grass Knot destroys Slowbro, Quag, and Hippow. Hammer Arm wrecks Heatran and Ferro. Psychic Fangs beats rotom and quag. Ice punch demolishes lando and chomp. I really hate going through this list, so I'm just going to stop here. Maybe I just have PTSD about this thing from all the degenerate games where people send in their MMeta against he opponent's because that's the best they had left after their lando, rotom, and heatran died to coverage. Maybe I'm wrong and this thing is completely manageable when it doesn't setup. Either way, that was my line of thinking, and I'm sticking with it for now.
I do not want to roll back any of the initial bans outright at the moment. I'm happy suspecting Silvally in a more classical approach. I'm open to retesting 1k arrows and MMeta down the line once the current slate has been looked into if that's what you all want. I'm not open to reading any more ultimatums about how I would be a failure if I didn't do X particularly if they aren't accompanied by any substantial analysis of why we done goofed. That's a waste of everyone's time. Full disclosure, I do have a large stake in getting plenty of stuff banned before the month is over because I fully intend to keep playing STABmons after December when it has no ladder to test on, and I don't think it's appropriate to ban most of this stuff at that point. I think that our current ban rate is acceptable because we unbanned 13 things to kick off the start of this month for completeness and I don't see many reasons not to re-ban most of them again (MMeta, MAero, MAlt, Shift Gear, Shell Smash, Geo, BD, Lovely Kiss, Dark Void, Diggs, PGonZ, KyuB, and Thundy-T). Holding 10 of these suspects individually along with 3-4 gen7 ones and giving a week or so in between for things to settle is impossible, so we're compromising with what we think is the second best approach. None of us think that this is a perfect solution, but we're not OU and we don't have a massive playerbase and years to suspect things, so we are taking shortcuts and we realize that. I'm sorry for a rough restart to an otherwise wonderful metagame.
Happy stabbing!
I understand that these "quickbans" might seem quick to some people, but from the council's perspective we've been discussing them since the first week of October along with the initial banlist. After a long discussion we decided to clear the whole banlist bar luck-based things like King's Rock and Accupressure and make some rapid decisions once the metagame itself rolled out on what was still broken, with a keen eye on anything that was previously banned. I personally didn't, and still don't see any metagame trends that make the big setup moves any less potent than they were last gen, particularly with the rise of fairies making sableye harder to justify and the general power creep making unaware mons less effective. In my mind, that along with the fact that either they or almost all of their best abusers were banned in the last 3 iterations of STABmons led me to decide that they were still broken and should be quickbanned. I don't see anyone arguing that these should be unbanned, so I'm going to assume people are on board with at least this much of my line of reasoning.
Moving onto 1k Arrows. I played about 50-60 games against people in a mock up of what gen7 STABmons would look like with the gen6 banlist + the new mons and moves in November in a combination of tours and private matches. Easily a third of those games came down to [offensive ground type] sweeping with 1k arrows. Fissure, Funbot, and Betathunder can attest to this, since they were the main people I was playing against. This set off a red flag for me, so I played a bunch more games once the metagame came out for real, and lo and behold the same thing was happening. I'm personally a fan of concise banlists, so it didn't even cross my mind to test lando, garchomp, garchompite, excadrill, etc., since to me it was clear that they were broken due to their newfound 1-move coverage in conjunction with them all being naturally good pokemon that have options to beat the 4 pokemon that actually resist it (Celebi, Tapu Bulu, Buzzwole, and [fudge factor]). I thought that the cleanest thing to do would be to take that new toy away and put them back into their already powerful, but definitely manageable state.
And finally MegaGross. This thing is really dumb to play against if you want to switch into it. Skarmory is a hard-counter, no questions. I wouldn't count anything else in that list. I'll try to dig through my replays to find HP Fire MMeta smashing through a scizor if I get the time, but 105 SpA is nothing to scoff at for mixed tech (before you tell me it's dumb, it kills sciz, ferro, forre, and chunks skarm without worrying about KS). Grass Knot destroys Slowbro, Quag, and Hippow. Hammer Arm wrecks Heatran and Ferro. Psychic Fangs beats rotom and quag. Ice punch demolishes lando and chomp. I really hate going through this list, so I'm just going to stop here. Maybe I just have PTSD about this thing from all the degenerate games where people send in their MMeta against he opponent's because that's the best they had left after their lando, rotom, and heatran died to coverage. Maybe I'm wrong and this thing is completely manageable when it doesn't setup. Either way, that was my line of thinking, and I'm sticking with it for now.
I do not want to roll back any of the initial bans outright at the moment. I'm happy suspecting Silvally in a more classical approach. I'm open to retesting 1k arrows and MMeta down the line once the current slate has been looked into if that's what you all want. I'm not open to reading any more ultimatums about how I would be a failure if I didn't do X particularly if they aren't accompanied by any substantial analysis of why we done goofed. That's a waste of everyone's time. Full disclosure, I do have a large stake in getting plenty of stuff banned before the month is over because I fully intend to keep playing STABmons after December when it has no ladder to test on, and I don't think it's appropriate to ban most of this stuff at that point. I think that our current ban rate is acceptable because we unbanned 13 things to kick off the start of this month for completeness and I don't see many reasons not to re-ban most of them again (MMeta, MAero, MAlt, Shift Gear, Shell Smash, Geo, BD, Lovely Kiss, Dark Void, Diggs, PGonZ, KyuB, and Thundy-T). Holding 10 of these suspects individually along with 3-4 gen7 ones and giving a week or so in between for things to settle is impossible, so we're compromising with what we think is the second best approach. None of us think that this is a perfect solution, but we're not OU and we don't have a massive playerbase and years to suspect things, so we are taking shortcuts and we realize that. I'm sorry for a rough restart to an otherwise wonderful metagame.
Happy stabbing!
Again, i don't see why you find Silvally that broken, it has underwhelming stats (95 across the board isn't what i call broken imo) and struggle to find opportunities to setup anything due to other Pokemon getting stronger STAB options. I think the fact that Silvally can have anything made all of you think it's broken. But it's just not cause it dies to anything "too much powerful" and if you invest in bulk, you are too weak to damage anything before setting up. Also Silvally, if you use it other than Normal type, cannot hold any item (other than the memory), which cripples it even further.
Sure it gets all moves, but actually, a few sets really make it stand out above other Pokemon. So i don't think it's broken.
Sure it gets all moves, but actually, a few sets really make it stand out above other Pokemon. So i don't think it's broken.
Its the sheer unpredictability factor. How do you counter a Pokemon with access to every attack, actually decent stats across the board and any of the 18 types it desires? Answer this question and its not broken at all.
I don't find it broken and I intend to vote 'no ban' when the time comes. However, it's not just Head Smash that makes it "broken". It's Tough Claws + high BP contact STAB.
No. It's also Speed + bulk + typing that makes it really hard to revenge.
The difference between Mega Aero / Mega Metagross and Ground-types with Thousand Arrows is that, using your examples, Head Smash and Heavy Slam aren't broken on other Pokemon and the moves themselves aren't all that spectacular. Mega Aero and Metagross, however, are spectacular Pokemon in their own right and can turn these moves into weapons of mass destruction. Thousand Arrows may look mediocre on paper, but it turns Pokemon (note the plural) that are undoubtedly quite good into something else on another level. That, and the move itself is quite spectacular, being able to circumvent types/abilities that would otherwise have a 100% success rate at avoiding damage. That's really incredible. The fact that many of these Ground types come with Attacks that hit 130 or higher is only the nail in the coffin, making that "low" 90 base power fairly irrelevant.
Now, take away Head Smash and Heavy Slam from Aero and Metagross and you still have some offensive nukes that are hard to manage.
Take away Tarrows from Lando-T, Garchomp, Exca, & Co. and you have some Pokemon that can be well managed by Flying-types and Levitators. Like, the argument about the Tarrow users isn't even about their other qualities. We're literally screaming "unparalleled STAB coverage!!!" and some of you are sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "Mega Slowbro's love will protect me."
Lastly, if all our Ground-types were Zygardes, would it be broken? No. Zygarde is pretty shitty, being too slow after 1 DD and having a subpar Attack (relatively). But we have some really good Grounds in the format. So rather than sack Lando-T, Chomp & Mega, maybe Exca, maybe Mamo, and whatever, we went with the simpler, singular option. Like with Shift Gear, rather than sack Mega Scizor, Jirachi, Kartana, probably Excadrill, probably Bisharp, etc, we chose the move. (And Shell Smash with its 150+ options. And Geomancy with Sylveon, Tapu Lele, Togekiss, etc. (Also I don't understand why people think Acupressure had any application outside of fishing for Evasion boosts and bypassing Evasion Clause. Seriously if you want to boost X stat you literally have that option with any Normal type and another move.)) Remember when the philosophy changed last gen to start banning moves in order to preserve more Pokemon? Well this is the after-effects of that.
So, really, the council is just moving quickly on trends that we believe beyond a shadow of a doubt are unhealthy for the metagame. We've pegged an ideal metagame on the horizon and we want to reach it sooner rather than later.
All that said, I'm having second-thoughts on Silvally, as I really think it's the Ghost set that's the most broken and every form's access to Quiver Dance. But as we can't separate the forms from each other, and as Quiver Dance isn't really breaking anything else (QD Genesect when?), I'm tempted to just commit to a Silvally ban.
And full trapping moves. Those pieces of dog shit should have been on this slate. I find them more unmanageable than the +1x5 Z-moves.
lol Josh is more concerned with attacking my choice of words and making memes of my PMs than providing any sustenance to counter my arguments.
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Is this sarcastic (honestly can't tell).
If uturn is the problem, keep your Slowbro nonmega. Uturn is only any good on choice sets, and band is really mediocre. Uturn does a max of 34% to 252/232+ Slowbro, so, most of the time you'll be healing (or only taking hazard damage if you can't clear those). Outside of those Alomomola also answers scarf/defensive landot, Excadrill, and can use ice beam to handle chomp. There's also mudsdale like you mentioned, which is resistant to getting worn down by boosted attacks, Celebi/buzzwole/ which can beat all of those bar Landot, Tapu Bulu, which handles Chomp really well (although issues with landot/excadrill), assorted less useful bulky grasses/waters, and similar.
No comment on the rest, but why can't we separate the silvally formes? Arceus formes are tiered separately; I think that's all the precedent we need.
I'm never sarcastic. (Honestly I don't know what part you thought I was being sarcastic about. I was being serious in that entire quote.)
...
Poison Jab was common on Chomp for this reason.
Tiering it separately has nothing to do with separating their move access. We tiered the Rotoms separately last gen but didn't let them share moves, so idk what you mean by this.
Oh, ok. The line "Wow. Actual Pokémon" seemed like it could have been sarcastic.
Compared with scarf or defensive? Absolutely. I'd even argue that offensive SR is better on more teams then band. Is there a use for band? Sure. But it's far and away not landorus' best.
At the cost of what? Dragon Dance was on pretty much every set, and Thousand Arrows is mandatory. Then chomp really wants substitute, shore up, wouldn't mind a dragon stab for almost perfect 90 bp coverage, Stealth Rock is always a goody, etc. Poison Jab really only hits grass types, and while I'll admit I played at most 40-50 games on ladder before Tarrows ban I never once saw Poison Jab. There's a reason it isn't even on OO in standard.
You said that ghost and quiver dance seemed like the issue; as ghost is the primary QD sweeper, it seems as though if silvally is banworthy banning ghost would solve most or all of that problem.
Though Silvallies with a full trapping set is struggling versus a lot of things especially if you forgo setup. But yeah it seems that the Ghost form is the most banworthy, notably due to its immunity to FakeSpeed and the fact that Mega Lopunny isn't avialable (which was the one used to check all kind of setup including Ghost-types) this oblige you to run Stoutland or Kangaskhan (something with Scrappy in fact) to check Silvally-Ghost with FakeSpeed (and they are weaker than Mega Lopunny so sometimes Silvally survives).
Now that Mega Lopunny isn't usable, will people finally remember Stoutland having Scrappy? It's not as good but I'm pretty sure it is an option to look at. Still has Crunch, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs and Superpower for coverage. Bulk is somewhat simillar, given that Mega Lop has less hp but higher actual defense stats (65/94/96 vs. 85/90/90). The damage diference is high, but it can still work, right?
Also, Water Bubble sounds way more scarry. With things like Water Spout, Hydro Pump or Crabhammer, you can have a 300, 220 or 180 STABs respectively, with the latest having high crit rate. Unfortunately Araquanid offensively is trash.
Also, Water Bubble sounds way more scarry. With things like Water Spout, Hydro Pump or Crabhammer, you can have a 300, 220 or 180 STABs respectively, with the latest having high crit rate. Unfortunately Araquanid offensively is trash.
How is Araquanid offensively trash? it is completely monster if you don't have 4x water resist or Storm Drain or Water Absorb. Access to Tail Glow, Quiver Dance, Tail Glow, Heal Order and Sticky Web is huge.
This is what set i used
Araquanid (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Water Shuriken
- Tail Glow
- Heal Order
This thing is complete monster, i think better going Sp. Atk instead of Atk. Getting access to one of the best setup move in the game can't be ignored.
252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally: 249-294 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Water Bubble Araquanid Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally: 229-270 (69.1 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
the difference is not much, but get access to Tail Glow is worth it. i don't use Quiver dance because this thing is too slow and can be patched up with Water Shuriken anyways.
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I meant Stat-Wise. If you aren't using a Water-Type move you do very little damage. Like I said, Water Bubble IS way scarrier now, but being basically only able to use one move offensively to do damage sounds risky. Completally forgot about Tail Glow tho