SM UU Beta (Mewnium Z, Staraptor, Victini banned)

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I feel like not giving Frosslass destiny bond is a waste as it gives it a lot of utility and makes attempting to knock it out after its sash has been broken risky for most of the tier as base 110 speed is quite fast, additionally it also enables it to revenge kill or force switches vs non scarf mons

the man is talking about spinblocking potential. destiny bond is used in suicide leads, which die turn2 with or without taking a mon with them. A mon that dies turn2 cannot be seen as spinblocker. If it needs to stay alive throughout the game and play its spinblocking role, then it is better off with the moveset meru posted
 
I feel like not giving Frosslass destiny bond is a waste as it gives it a lot of utility and makes attempting to knock it out after its sash has been broken risky for most of the tier as base 110 speed is quite fast, additionally it also enables it to revenge kill or force switches vs non scarf mons
Aside from the fact that he's talking about spinblocker potential, Destiny Bond got a huge nerf last gen and Froslass's other offensive/support coverage, including Taunt, is superior to D-Bond after the nerf.
 
the man is talking about spinblocking potential. destiny bond is used in suicide leads, which die turn2 with or without taking a mon with them. A mon that dies turn2 cannot be seen as spinblocker. If it needs to stay alive throughout the game and play its spinblocking role, then it is better off with the moveset meru posted
True but it uses the exact same EV spread as the suicide lead and its not like frostlass has any bulk and DB enables it to take down offensive spinners such as mega Blastoise and Dhelmise that would OHKO it if after its sash had been broken by spikes or rocks while also giving it the previously mentioned utility, all for the price of 1 move slot

Frosslass generally struggles to take on most of the viable spinners in the tier due to its lackluster base 80 special attack, without DB Frosslass will generally lose 1v1 to most of the spinners in the tier, making it a lot less effective as a spin blocker.

252 SpA Froslass Thunderbolt vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise-Mega: 126-150 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Blastoise-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Froslass: 396-466 (140.9 - 165.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Froslass Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Dhelmise: 156-186 (45.3 - 54%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Dhelmise Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Froslass: 338-398 (120.2 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Froslass Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 162-192 (62.5 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Froslass: 261-308 (92.8 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Froslass Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 142-168 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (84 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Froslass: 222-264 (79 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That leaves Froslass beating defensive Starmies and Tsareena(who it can still lose to if it switches into an attacking move instead of a spin)
 
Tsareena will probably drop as long as there are better rapid spinners (starmie, forretress, tentacruel, etc.)

Tsareena is only worse than Starmie. It has reliable recovery and cannot be set up on by any physical attacker due to Trop Kick. It has much more offensive presence than Tentacruel and Forretress and can gain you momentum while spinning with either the trop kick drop (similar to Landorus) and u-turn. It looks like a shitty waifumon but it really is decent. It beats all spinblockers bar doublade including the shitty Dhelmise with Trop Kick + Synthesis, too. It easily beats common rockers like Krookodile (Dhelmise and Decidueye can't), Swampert, Hippowdon, non-toxic Forretress (then again Forretress is beaten by everything), Gigalith. Pure grass typing is actually a useful defensive typing as Tangrowth shows time and time again as well. It also can't be pursuit trapped.

And it has the mentioned niches of beating priority abusers.

Then again defensive Starmie gets recover and scald (which also cuts attack) so it IS superior to Tsareena, but Tsareena is still good.
 
Dhelmise isn't complete garbage but it is very bad. It has a few things going for it. It's arguably the best spin blocker in the tier since the Prankster nerf makes Sabelye an easy switch in for too many big threats & Gengar is too frail to reliably spin block anything. That's a pretty small niche though since only a small portion of teams really *need* spinblocking and fewer still are going to need it so bad that Dhelmise would be preferable over generally better mons like Gengar, Sableye, ect. It's a decently reliable spinner I suppose. AV (the only half-decent set IMO) can mess with certain popular special attackers since while Ghost is a really bad defensive typing it's decent offensively for slamming special attackers like Alakazam and Gengar (special/mixed Victini too, I suppose, but if you actually attempt to check Victini with Dhelmise you're truly wild.)

These minor positives don't really make up for its many negatives though (horrendous defensive typing, barren movepool, ect.)
Typing doesn't matter. Every tier has Pokémon with bad defensive typings
 
Something that's flown under the radar so far is weather teams, particular rain and sun. What are everyone's thoughts on Drought and Drizzle? I'll post what I posted in a PM:
If you haven't played rain since the last round of bans yet, give it a try. It has everything it needs to be just as deadly as it was last gen (well, except Kingdra). In fact it now has Volcanion and Araquanid to act as breakers that are way stronger than what we've had before, and both these Pokemon additionally absorb opposing rain boosted moves to help your team (Volcanion outright, and Araquanid by virtue of insane special bulk + Scald burn immunity). These in addition to other breakers like Thundurus (both forms), Tornadus-I, Keldeo, and various Z-move users make it very easy to break fatter builds. For example, NP Thundurus T with Z Focus Blast + one of Ludicolo/Volcanion/Keldeo is an easy way to deal with stall. And of course, it's almost impossible for offense to stop Kabutops and Ludicolo from just getting multiple kills in a row since the rain boost essentially invalidates a lot of offensive water resistances. It's especially effective when they can be supported by good rain options like Breloom, Celebi, and Forretress. Of course all this is only made possible by automatic 8 turn rain, as clearly manual rain wouldn't be anywhere near as effective.

Drought doesn't seem to be as effective, but I haven't tried it out since before Dragonite and company were banned, and even then I didn't try that hard to make it work before I moved onto something else. I won't be nominating it this round, and I'm curious to see if it actually ends up broken, but it is something to keep an eye out for.
For offense, which is what I've used mostly so far, it's really difficult to stop Politoed + multiple swift swim users (rain teams only really need one, but using Kabutops + Ludicolo ensures that you won't have any trouble getting through offensive teams).
 
Something that's flown under the radar so far is weather teams, particular rain and sun. What are everyone's thoughts on Drought and Drizzle? I'll post what I posted in a PM:
For offense, which is what I've used mostly so far, it's really difficult to stop Politoed + multiple swift swim users (rain teams only really need one, but using Kabutops + Ludicolo ensures that you won't have any trouble getting through offensive teams).

I've been using rain for the past couple days and it feels really strong. Kabutops is a great rain sweeper that really doesn't have a lot of answers, especially if it gets a Swords Dance up. This is the set I've found most effective with it:

Kabutops @ Rockium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet

252+ Atk Kabutops Continental Crush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 309-364 (106.1 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Kabutops Continental Crush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 322-381 (99 - 117.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Kabutops Continental Crush vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 297-349 (86.5 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 387-456 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 328-387 (88.1 - 104%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Kabutops can force a lot of switches under rain which gives it enough opportunities to set up a sword dance. This set really requires such little chip damage to start a sweep on offensive teams that most of the time you don't even need to SD.

A solid partner for Kabutops on my rain team has actually been Noivern. Its great speed tier and access to Hurricane lets it run a pretty solid specs set in this meta which takes advantage of the fact that there are few flying resists in UU.

Noivern @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- Switcheroo
- U-turn

Noivern ends up being a little match up dependent but even at a disadvantage it can still put in some work with switcheroo. Its speed tier and typing is great for revenge killing several threats in this meta like Serperior and Breloom. Its definitely nowhere near a top tier mon but with rain I've found it to be pretty effective.

I'd say rain is going to be a problem at some point in time. Drizzle makes it way too easy to set rain and with the possibility of getting Kingdra and Pelipper come February its really only going to get better. Opposing weather setters can give it problems but not every team is going to have weather setters so it makes the play style very match up dependent. I've played a lot of solid offensive teams that just lose to rain without a lot of counter play options.
 
The biggest problem for rain teams is stall/semi-stall because those can eat up rain turns. A stallbreaker/effective wallbreaker is a good idea on rain due to busting up those defensive cores. Sand, sun, and hail aren't that bad (hippowdon, torkoal, and alolan ninetales are all viable setters). The best weather is rain, though. TBH drizzle will probably be suspected sometime in the future (probably by April).
 
The thing about weather is that it has to go perfect or it all goes to shit. Politoed got trapped after Perish Song? Torkoal got toxicked? Altough Weather can be VERY destructive, if you survive it's turns or have a good counter(like, Assault Vest Primarina against weather other than Sand and Latias against Sun n' Rain) it becomes way less powerful. Weather has to be a lot more skilled than in the BW days.
 
In addition, the prevalence of opposing weather setters can severely inhibit the ability for dedicated rain or sun teams to function. Hippowdon and Ninetales-Alola in particular are fairly common even outside of weather teams for their overall utility, and can really limit the ability for a Kabutops or Venusaur to sweep. Especially the latter, which can outspeed all weather sweepers outside of their home weather and set up Aurora Veil to further stop their sweep (or just hit them with Blizzard/Moonblast/Freeze-Dry).
 
I hope weather doesn't get banned again. That's basically removing a mechanic of the game
If a mechanic is deemed by the council to be either unhealthy, uncompetitive, or broken, it will be banned. Whether something is a component of the game is irrelevant. Evasion boosts are a component of the game, but they diminish the point of our tiering, which is to reward skillful play (while trying, as best as possible, to offer a gameplay as close as possible to the cartridge games). I highly encourage you to check out this post outlining the point of our tiering and its justification: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ous-tiering-policy-framework-read-and-understand-this.3552154/
 
I would also like to point out that it is incredibly unlikely that weather itself gets banned, and more likely that the abilities that make weather good, Drizzle and Drought, get banned.

Anyways, I'm interested in how Trick Room as an archetype could work in UU. TR got a good amount of new mons that can help support it such as Necromoza, Araquinid, Bisharp, Azumarill, and probably some others I'm forgetting. Theres still Porygon2 which is stupidly bulky, and can set up Trick Room throughout the entire game. While I realise that most consider Trick Room as a joke, I would like people to seriously consider it. We saw TR brought to SPL last week in OU with several mons that are in UU currently, and I was wondering how viable it could be. What are your thoughts? Did Sumo give TR enough to be viable? Or is it still pretty bad and requires good matchups?
 
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I would also like to point out that it is incredibly unlikely that weather itself gets banned, and more likely that the abilities that make weather good, Drizzle and Drought, get banned.

Anyways, I'm interested in how Trick Room as an archetype could work in OU. TR got a good amount of new mons that can help support it such as Necromoza, Araquinid, Bisharp, Azumarill, and probably some others I'm forgetting. Theres still Porygon2 which is stupidly bulky, and can set up Trick Room throughout the entire game. While I realise that most consider Trick Room as a joke, I would like people to seriously consider it. We saw TR brought to SPL last week in OU with several mons that are in UU currently, and I was wondering how viable it could be. What are your thoughts? Did Sumo give TR enough to be viable? Or is it still pretty bad and requires good matchups?
Well, I never used Trick Room, but most of Alola could abuse it, theorically speaking. As long as there are enough setters, it should work. From personal experience, fighting AGAINST Trick Room teams is a pain, until you remove their setter. Them, the Pokémons left are either too Glass Cannon-y or already weakened, so they're easily taken care of.
 
I'm seeing an opening for Pikachu: Gen 7 edition. Togedemaru is pretty nice. Give that lil' ball this set:

Togedemaru @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Nuzzle
- Spiky Shield
- Zing Zap

And you'll have a fast and yet still slightly threatening Pikachu + Steel Typing!

Does Rocky Helmet activate when the opponent hits Spiky Shield?
 
Well, I never used Trick Room, but most of Alola could abuse it, theorically speaking. As long as there are enough setters, it should work. From personal experience, fighting AGAINST Trick Room teams is a pain, until you remove their setter. Them, the Pokémons left are either too Glass Cannon-y or already weakened, so they're easily taken care of.

I tried trick room before in Beta UU and every time the trick room setter gets knocked out too quickly or trick room does not last long enough. In UU beta, trick room still isn't that good. Trick room will be better in the lower tiers where most of the slow mons will actually fall down to. The problem with trick room is that it only lasts 5 turns (4 if you switch out the setter) and it often does not do too well against stall in my experience (due to stalling the TR turns out).
 
I've been running Sun Balance for a while (especially since recent quick bans and Serperior is really good). Volcanion's Bloom Doom set is great and checks Azu and Scizor.

I've also been using Scarf Darmanitan in Sun and it hits really hard especially to check Serp.

But, here's my Torkoal set.

Torkoal Leftovers
White Smoke (just kidding, Drought)
248 HP/ 252Def/8 SDef
-Stealth Rock
-Lava Plume
-Rapid Spin
-Earthquake

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 134-162 (39 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just to show how bulky this turtle is...
 
Here's a oldie but a goodie from the BW era

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock / Rapid Spin

Used with Politoed, this is near impossible to deal with after a free / double switch. Without rain it's a bitch to switch on thanks to Life Orb + Analytic + Strong STAB move in Hydro Pump and chunks stuff like Hydreigon for big damage

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 136-162 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Add rain and you got a real monster on your hands

Additionally, its excellent coverage makes it even harder to switch in on past a massively powerful STAB move, so Grass-types and other Water-types aren't easy switch-ins. Obviously, Blissey is still a problem, but Psyshock can do some decent damage.

The real strength of Starmie, however, is in its excellent Speed stat. 115 Speed puts it above Thundurus (both), Tornadus, Serperior, Keldeo, Hydreigon, Latias, Terrakion, Victini, Celebi, etc, basically every offensive threat except like Raikou and Azelf. Also it shares a lot of checks with Politoed so lure them in with Politoed and bop them with Hypnosis or Toxic

So yeah it's pretty cool give it a whirl
 
I've been thinking, how good would a Primarina + Metagross core work out? Both of them are tanks that break down walls of both defenses, and can help check each others' threats. In a team, they'd function in punching holes in a team comp and wearing down checks for a late-game cleanup.

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Energy Ball

Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Heabutt
- Earthquake
- Explosion / Trick

Metagross's EVs are set so he can outspeed uninvested base 85, encompassing almost all of UU's bulky lineup (reduce/increase to match whatever tier you want to outspeed). You could also run AV and max HP if you don't want Prim taking unnecessary damage, though you lose out on both hitting power and potentially running Trick over Explosion.
 
You'd be better off running max speed on primarina yes you lose out on bulk but you outrun 0 Speed Roserade and can 2hko it with Psychic (I think don't have the calcs to hand). Seems solid on paper, would work well with sweepers like Dragon Dance Kommo-o
 
Let's be real though if you're running 0 Speed Roserade you're doing it wrong. Roserade should always be max Special Attack max Speed Timid with some combination of Leaf Storm / Sludge Bomb / HP Fire / HP Ground / Sleep Powder / Spikes / Toxic Spikes.

Come to think of it that doesn't sound too bad in this meta
 
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