I think of the tier system as it is as more of a guide to what's most useful and what you're most likely going to have to have answers to than a list of pokes that you absolutely need to use. The OU tier isn't a list of the ONLY pokemon that can compete at that level, it's a list of the ones that you're most likely to encounter because they're generally really good, good enough that they're banned in NU, UU, and BL, but not necessarily good enough to compete in Ubers. But if someone finds a pokemon in UU, like Tentacruel, Froslass, etc. that performs at an unexpectedly high level in OU, then it totally makes sense for it to move up to OU, so long as enough people use it, in which case it needs to be added to the OU tier listing so that people will know that they need to be prepared for it. Feel me?
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Unified Diff of Smogon's OU vs Shoddy's 42 most popular
- Thread starter Dragontamer
- Start date
These are hypothetical situations. If Salamence were to lose quite a bit of popularity, he would be moved to UU. If everyone wanted a piece of Sunflora, she'd be OU.
Yes, you can say that the average Smogon-er has enough common sense not to use a team of Luvdisc and expect many wins, but I trust the expert Smogon people over the average Joe Smogon person. The expert's opinions aren't effected by popularity, unlike the system now.
And you haven't said why we should ban poor Beedrill from his fellow crappy NU Pokes if he saw more use in standard play?
And I do, as a matter of fact, I like how you Smogon people give new people the benifit of the doubt. =)
Yes, you can say that the average Smogon-er has enough common sense not to use a team of Luvdisc and expect many wins, but I trust the expert Smogon people over the average Joe Smogon person. The expert's opinions aren't effected by popularity, unlike the system now.
And you haven't said why we should ban poor Beedrill from his fellow crappy NU Pokes if he saw more use in standard play?
And I do, as a matter of fact, I like how you Smogon people give new people the benifit of the doubt. =)
These are hypothetical situations that you posited to me. I really would never imagine such a thing. =/
I directly addressed the issue of multiplicity in tiering in my last post. Because we strive for TWO SEPERATE GAMES, we disallow pokemon that have valuable uses in both. Shedinja can be played in all tiers. Tenta is great in UU and OU. Beedrill (assuming he could be used in OU somehow) would be another example of this train of thought.
The experts are just other people and I expect everyone to think as critically as they do. I know it's incorrect (especially given the average age and experience of someone who plays pokemon competitively), but at the least I expect people not to use the 6-Luvdisc sweeper team seriously and let the statistical cards fall where they lay.
Also I don't feel like a Smogon people and I'm rarely treated as such here. I just represent myself.
Yes, if they have more than a single counter. I guess that's what I assumed people should assume, but I guess I just made asses out of all of us then.
If it cannot be countered by more than one Pokemon, it is overcentralizing the metagame. Just about every team is forced to carry one and a counter to one, so we ban it. I don't think Gyarados has any UU counter outside of a couple of bulky Water-absorbers, so it's OU.
Just for fun, I checked out the difference between Pokemon in the weighted and non-weighted list. I only looked at OUs (the top 57 which is 95% of usage and also constant between the two lists). That is, I found which Pokemon are more likely to be favored by better players and which are more likely to be favored by worse players. Some of the results are surprising, though others are very expected. The value next to a Pokemon's name indicated the number of places it moved when being transitioned from the unweighted to the weighted list.
Expert favored Pokemon:
Roserade: +7
Zapdos: +4
Suicune: +4
Tentacruel: +4
Staraptor: +4
Cresselia: +2
Mamoswine: +2
Tyranitar: +1
Heracross: +1
Metagross: +1
Starmie: +1
Gliscor: +1
Heatran: +1
Togekiss: +1
Jirachi: +1
Machamp: +1
Abomasnow: +1
Crobat: +1
Rhyperior: +1
Oh wow Roserade! I wouldn't have suspected it, but Roserade is evidently the major "expert" Pokemon. Tentacruel was somewhat expected, and the two old favorite legends might be so high because of their historic worth. Staraptor, well, I'm not sure what to say about that.
"n00b" Pokemon:
Ninjask: -8
Alakazam: -6
Gallade: -5
Magnezone: -3
Umbreon: -3
Weavile: -2
Ambipom: -2
Gengar: -1
Forretress: -1
Infernape: -1
Bronzong: -1
Swampert: -1
Dusknoir: -1
Electivire: -1
Vaporeon: -1
Jolteon: -1
Spiritomb: -1
Tangrowth: -1
In a completely unsurprising turn of events, Ninjask wins this category. It looks like some things never change... Anyway, about other PkMn that are more surprising, Alakazam and Gallade seem to be far more favored by poor players. I'm not sure how to explain that, and the falling of favor of both Weavile and Ambipom is similarly surprising to me. Maybe it is expert players building their teams to avoid the gameplay revolving around Weavile's pursuit? I don't know how to explain it. Also, let us all enjoy a hearty laugh that all three OU Eeveelutions appear on this list.
Depending on your perspective, this may or may not be useful. If you're hoping to take your game to the next level, it might be useful to you to be able to look at say "those are the Pokemon the top players value more than the lower players do". Then again, limiting your choices by saying "Ninjask is a n00b Pokemon I won't use him" would be silly so don't misuse this information.
Expert favored Pokemon:
Roserade: +7
Zapdos: +4
Suicune: +4
Tentacruel: +4
Staraptor: +4
Cresselia: +2
Mamoswine: +2
Tyranitar: +1
Heracross: +1
Metagross: +1
Starmie: +1
Gliscor: +1
Heatran: +1
Togekiss: +1
Jirachi: +1
Machamp: +1
Abomasnow: +1
Crobat: +1
Rhyperior: +1
Oh wow Roserade! I wouldn't have suspected it, but Roserade is evidently the major "expert" Pokemon. Tentacruel was somewhat expected, and the two old favorite legends might be so high because of their historic worth. Staraptor, well, I'm not sure what to say about that.
"n00b" Pokemon:
Ninjask: -8
Alakazam: -6
Gallade: -5
Magnezone: -3
Umbreon: -3
Weavile: -2
Ambipom: -2
Gengar: -1
Forretress: -1
Infernape: -1
Bronzong: -1
Swampert: -1
Dusknoir: -1
Electivire: -1
Vaporeon: -1
Jolteon: -1
Spiritomb: -1
Tangrowth: -1
In a completely unsurprising turn of events, Ninjask wins this category. It looks like some things never change... Anyway, about other PkMn that are more surprising, Alakazam and Gallade seem to be far more favored by poor players. I'm not sure how to explain that, and the falling of favor of both Weavile and Ambipom is similarly surprising to me. Maybe it is expert players building their teams to avoid the gameplay revolving around Weavile's pursuit? I don't know how to explain it. Also, let us all enjoy a hearty laugh that all three OU Eeveelutions appear on this list.
Depending on your perspective, this may or may not be useful. If you're hoping to take your game to the next level, it might be useful to you to be able to look at say "those are the Pokemon the top players value more than the lower players do". Then again, limiting your choices by saying "Ninjask is a n00b Pokemon I won't use him" would be silly so don't misuse this information.
By saying this once and again, you're proving that you are NOT understanding how smogon's tier system works.
If, suddenly, everyone stopped using Salamence in OU, it WOULD NOT be moved to UU, because it is too powerful for UU. It would be labeled BL, AKA "those who aren't OU but are too powerful for UU".
Regarding your Sunflora example, if it suddenly became used in every OU team, yes, it would be moved to OU and banned from UU. But the reason is not because it would be suddenly a threat to the UU pokémon, but rather because the UU metagame is considered as something that has to be different from OU. If some pokémon in OU are allowed to compete in UU, because of its power, the players that enjoy the UU metagame because it's totally different from OU won't have what they wanted. the goal here is, then, to differentiate both metagames, as they are the only two considered balanced.
I know I'm basically a nobody in smogon, but I think I have the concept of tiers pretty clear, so please take some time to read what I've written, and you may understand it better.
If I understand the tier system correctly; the dividing line between UU/BL is purely based on power alone. Usage does not play a part here. While the dividing line between UU/OU and BL/OU is based purely on usage (or popularity alone).
That said, I think people need to realize that placement depends on both factors and while both factors are correlated, it is not a one to one correspondence.
Also I believe in the Sunflora example, it would be placed in OU tier due to usage. However; I don't think it should be banned from UU as it doesn't meet the power requirement to ban it to BL. I believe this is true for any pokemon that jumps a tier due to usage alone. (ie. going from UU to OU directly) Tentacruel is probably the best example of this.
Its an odd example, and some clarification would be nice.
That said, I think people need to realize that placement depends on both factors and while both factors are correlated, it is not a one to one correspondence.
Also I believe in the Sunflora example, it would be placed in OU tier due to usage. However; I don't think it should be banned from UU as it doesn't meet the power requirement to ban it to BL. I believe this is true for any pokemon that jumps a tier due to usage alone. (ie. going from UU to OU directly) Tentacruel is probably the best example of this.
Its an odd example, and some clarification would be nice.
Okay, here are multiple pokemon that "counter" Blissey (which in the first place isn't really a threat, more of a big wall):
1. Pinsir (Close Combat)
2. Hitmonchan (Sub to blow T-Wave/ + Iron Fist + Focus Punch or Close Combat)
3. Hitmonlee (limber makes immunity to T-Wave)
4. DD Lapras (bonus: 101 subs)
5. Swords Dance Scyther (who will then outspeed the vast majority of UU pokemon)
6. Etc. Etc.
Just "countering" isn't enough frankly. One key fact is that few people like playing when Blissey is in the game in OU matches. UU will be blissey and chansey free regardless of how possible Blissey can be countered in it. Using the #1 most popular pokemon in "Under-used matches" is just plain wrong.
OU Pokemon and BL Pokemon are both banned from UU matches. If a Pokemon is used enough to be OU, it is OU.
I find it rather strange why people tend to bother complaining on the flaws of the tier system, based on hypothetical examples. On paper, it may seem wrong that a Sunflora, Ariados, etc... can be premoted to OU if it's play were to see a significant increase in use. But seriously, when will that ever occur? If a Pokemon is premoted due to use, such as Tentacruel, I would think it is only fair to assume that the Pokemon is being used because it is actually useful. Inferior Pokemon don't just climb up the popularity ladder for no apparent reason. And it is already established that Pokemon which drop in popularity will move from OU to BL. So I'm not sure what the problem is. The correlation between use and strength may not be perfect, but it's pretty damn accurate in most cases.
Yeah, and the experts are using Tentacruel (Obi . . . Dragon Tamer . . . :P)
What I wondered about a certain part of the discussion was the part where its said "If a pokemon gets that high % of usage, it should go to OU"
But what if we do that. Hypothetically speaking here, lets say Tentacruel does indeed go OU. If it were to be used in OU-only, its use wouldn't be as high. Then peek at UU where we have, say, Hitmontop ruling that joint. His used % would skyrocket over Tentacruel's.
Just saying.
But what if we do that. Hypothetically speaking here, lets say Tentacruel does indeed go OU. If it were to be used in OU-only, its use wouldn't be as high. Then peek at UU where we have, say, Hitmontop ruling that joint. His used % would skyrocket over Tentacruel's.
Just saying.
Thats not exactly what this chart is saying though.
This chart is with the standard OU battle on shoddybattle (species clause, ubers clause, sleep clause and a few others). Essentially, in OU play only, Tentacruel is being used that often. Only OU ladder battles are counted here.
I argue that popularity only makes sense if we calculate the popularity of pokemon used in the OU metagame, which is precisely what this chart is noting.
Then you should know that the SSBM tier list is decided by usage and not potantential.
Fox and Falco are 1 and 2 because they win the most tournaments and are the most used by about double.
Marth is next in both usage and average placing.
Shiek is up there as an almost always secondary to other mains, along with Peach.
Captain Falcon is pretty much the only other one used a good amount.
Lo and behold, they all hold the top six spots, regardless of some arguements against them.
Sorry for this being kind of off-topic, but I just really thought this would be helpful to this person and on-topic to his post.
Still though, why think, "well, if a lot of people are using it, it has to be good!, OU for sure!", when you can think, "it has so and so base stats and a good movepool and the ability to OHKO so and so, so it should be OU". Seriously, Electivire was way over-rated, the only reason it's used so much is because Gyarados is used so much. About 90% of n00bs with Gyarados will stick Electivire on their team without any thought, is that better than all the BL Pokes?
Frankly, I don't like how something can be OU, but if it weren't used as much it wouldn't even be BL. OU is the STANDARD metagame, it should only be part of the OU tier if it's good enough to participate well in the STANDARD metagame.
Because we don't care about power when a pokemon is overused. We only care about usage.
There is no implication that OU pokemon are stronger than BL or even UU pokemon. OU pokemon are indeed: overused pokemon. They aren't "top" or "high" tier (like in SSB:M or other fighting games), they are overused.
Again: that is not the point of the OU tier. The OU tier is there so that we have a handy list of commonly used pokemon. Whether you like it or not, Electivire is used on many teams, and a good team ought to have a gameplan in mind simply because it is a popular pokemon.
Its like white weeny in Magic: The Gathering. Depening on the set, White Weeny strategy may or may not work well. However, if even 10% of Magic players use a White Weeny deck, you need to have a gameplan in mind to beat them, lest you lose to one in a tournament. Even if the current set in Magic makes White Weeny decks suck, you need to still think about them as a threat.
You are criticizing the tiers for not doing something they aren't even supposed to do. We aren't using usage as a one-degree-removed way of measuring power. We are using usage as a direct measurement of... usage. And that's exactly what the OU tier is supposed to measure.
And Time Mage hit the nail on the head in your Salamence example. If suddenly Salamence were to stop being used, it would be moved out of OU into UU. HOWEVER (and this is the step you are ignoring), it's too powerful to UU, so it's moved up from UU to BL, thus banning it from OU matches.
And Time Mage hit the nail on the head in your Salamence example. If suddenly Salamence were to stop being used, it would be moved out of OU into UU. HOWEVER (and this is the step you are ignoring), it's too powerful to UU, so it's moved up from UU to BL, thus banning it from OU matches.
Bah, I posted this in the BL/UU discussion forum.
Really, a lot of Pokemon were overrated and put into OU with little or no thought as to how they would preform this generation as opposed to last. I've never seen Aero ONCE on Shoddy, for example. And I always thought Milotic was OU, as are Tentacruel and Spiritomb (both of the latter probably boosted by the popularity of Obi's team...)
If that's the sole purpose, just 'would ya look at that, slowbro is getting more us this gen, interesting' rather than determining the potential of characters, why use it to determine which Pokes are banned from UU and NU battles? What's the point of 'woah, that's a clefable, you can't use thta in this UU battle, people are using it on OU teams now'?
If these are how the tier lists actually work, then we really ought to have two lists. One for practical purposes, one devised by debate and thinking rather than asking Colin for a list of Pokemon used a lot on Shoddy.
is it possible to do the usage of pokemon only for people with a ladder ranking over a given value, say 1400. this would emilinate all of the ninjasks and other pokemon that are used a lot, but not would be placed in the OU tier (as very few good people use ninjask)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=712912&postcount=52
Because the purpose of UU is to play with underused pokemon, and the purpose of NU is to play with never used pokemon. The only way of determining that is popularity.