Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[Marzbar]

Scolipede carries Rock Slide for such situations and Pheromosa commonly has Ice Beam. If you wanna run a garbage set like Scarfbat (which has the same problem as DD in that Scolipede still has the advantage, and if you ever screw up you still get stomped), you're welcome to, but we're starting to hit Volt Absorb Lanturn levels of junk to shut down one Pokemon.

Well in fairness, Scolipede struggles to even 2HKO Crobat with Rock Slide, whereas Crobat guarantees an OHKO with Brave Bird with 0 ATK EV investment. So Scolipede can't really do much to it apart from praying for a flinch hax.

The fact that you said Scolipede runs Rock Slide just to deal with this situation is in itself proof that Crobat is a legit counter to the strategy. So it's hardly junk by your own admission.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Lead greninja does threaten sash rock setters

252+ SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 306-360 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While that's not 100% it's definitely worth the hax over starting with hydro pump

 

[lightninging]

Well in fairness, Scolipede struggles to even 2HKO Crobat with Rock Slide, whereas Crobat guarantees an OHKO with Brave Bird with 0 ATK EV investment. So Scolipede can't really do much to it apart from praying for a flinch hax.

The fact that you said Scolipede runs Rock Slide just to deal with this situation is in itself proof that Crobat is a legit counter to the strategy. So it's hardly junk by your own admission.

Crobat is not a good BP counter as it is otherwise not viable. At no point should a play style warrant the usage of unviable mons just to prevent an auto loss. I'm not going on record that BP is broken, but Crobat is so irrelevant it shouldn't be part of any argument.
Also, Specs Gren is almost always Timid FYI.

 

[volx757]

Pheromosa and Greninja don't often lead, and even when they do they often reveal their tricks-of-the-trade too quickly. There are obvious exceptions, but Stealth Rock can still be laid by a lot of Pokemon. Alolan Marowak, for example, fears nothing that Pheromosa has outside of the incredibly rare Hidden Power Ground.

im not sure why you wouldnt start with Pheromosa or Greninja vs someone who has a rock set up on their team, its not like they can do much to Pheromosa, since it outspeeds everything and can u-turn even if they dont start with a rock set up. Ive seen a lot of people start with Greninja also cause of its just damage and speed, it also doesnt fear rock users. Unless they run ferrothorn, i dont think even ferrothorn wants to get high jump kicked by life orb Pheromosa though.

Yea IMO Greninja is a great lead. You can set spikes if the opposing mon isn't threatening, you can hit common rockers with ice beam or hydro for easy KOs, and if the match-up is bad, you can just u-turn out. Sounds kinda like an ideal lead to me. Sure, you end up revealing protean on turn 1, but protean is so good that who honestly cares? Bluffing BB is such a small part of what makes ninja unpredictable.

 

[JTD783]

To clarify what I said in a previous post: clearing hazards doesn't seem crucial atm unless your team has hazard-weak mons or is stall/balance. However, getting rocks up has been and still is very important for netting KOs and every team needs rocks. Spikes are decent and will improve once people realize that Tapu Fini isn't god-tier and it sees less usage. Clearing=optional, setting=mandatory.

Lolme See volx757's post, that explains my reasoning pretty well.

 

[Lolme]

To clarify what I said in a previous post: clearing hazards doesn't seem crucial atm unless your team has hazard-weak mons or is stall/balance. However, getting rocks up has been and still is very important for netting KOs and every team needs rocks. Spikes are decent and will improve once people realize that Tapu Fini isn't god-tier and it sees less usage. Clearing=optional, setting=mandatory.

I'm not convinced by your logic. If getting hazards up is mandatory to net certain ko's, then so is clearing them to negate ko's. Perhaps it would make more sense something like "Clearing is optional in HO teams." since that's basically what you said with the stall\balance exception you wrote.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

So a little while ago I was messing around in the lower ladder, and I discovered the true purpose of the Protective Pads: it prevents your Rapid Spinner from killing itself on Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, and Rough Skin.

 

[volx757]

I'm not convinced by your logic. If getting hazards up is mandatory to net certain ko's, then so is clearing them to negate ko's. Perhaps it would make more sense something like "Clearing is optional in HO teams." since that's basically what you said with the stall\balance exception you wrote.

This would be true in a vacuum, but it fails to take into account the actual momentum and goals of a battle. 2 turns spent bringing in your remover and removing are 2 turns you're not taking advantage of the rocks YOU set up to get those KOs. Once rocks are up on both sides, you can try to keep the battle slow and in control and keep your side free of hazards (stall, fat balance), or you can go for KOs to try to outright win before they do (thin balance (coining it), bulky offense, offense, hyper offense).

It really is team-dependent, as an offense team based around volcarona basically needs removal.

The original question tho was whether or not removal in general is required. It is not.
I agree though that setting is almost mandatory.

 

[Ryolain]

Watching SPL replays, it seems like pure HO is pretty much non-existent. Pokes that can run a partial utility set and have good resistances like Celesteela and Tangrowth always maintain a spot on more offensively-oriented teams. They're able to sponge a few hits, nail opponents with usable offensive stats and good coverage moves, and have some form of recovery so they can come back multiple times throughout the match.

I think a lot of this is attributable to the priority nerf and lack of availability of many of the more offensive Megas that dominated last gen; more Pokes are having to decide between power and speed, as opposed to ORAS where it seemed like half of OU could 2HKO everything but designated walls with priority moves. The introduction of Beast Boost also creates an additional form of the Scarf vs Band/Specs mindgames, forcing people to be prepared both to tank hits and revenge kill fast threats depending on how people EV Pokes like Pheromosa who can go either way. Celesteela's a really interesting case since it can get harder to RK in a completely new way, often being set to boost SpDef when it nets a kill.

This makes balance/bulky offense a lot more appealing and easier to team build than HO, which doesn't love that kind of unpredictability since it means risking what might be your only way to apply offensive pressure to check a certain threat. The classic answer (wreck stuff with powerful priority) isn't nearly as reliable as it used to be since you have to build around the possibility of facing Lele.

I find it interesting how this coincides with bulky offense/balance starting to care less about hazard removal, which is typically a HO trait. I wonder how much of this is just because there's a lack of good offensive defoggers/spinners - the honeymoon seems to be ending with Fini. Many Pokes aren't scared out by Nature's Madness, boosting up in its face and either wrecking it flat out or leaving it so worn down that it can't reliably check things anymore. It's not necessarily that hazard removal is no longer necessary, there's just nothing you want to waste time switching in to get it done because they all destroy your momentum. Think that's probably why Rapid Spin Phero is picking up a little traction, since it generates the free turns an offensive spinner/defogger needs to do its job well.

 

[Photofluid]

This would be true in a vacuum, but it fails to take into account the actual momentum and goals of a battle. 2 turns spent bringing in your remover and removing are 2 turns you're not taking advantage of the rocks YOU set up to get those KOs. Once rocks are up on both sides, you can try to keep the battle slow and in control and keep your side free of hazards (stall, fat balance), or you can go for KOs to try to outright win before they do (thin balance (coining it), bulky offense, offense, hyper offense).

It really is team-dependent, as an offense team based around volcarona basically needs removal.

The original question tho was whether or not removal in general is required. It is not.
I agree though that setting is almost mandatory.

That logic is so flawed, if two turn removal is considered a momentum drain, so is spending two turn (in the case of leads, 1 turn and a free switch) setting up your rocks. In fact, since the setting happens before the removal, the momemtum investment is greater for the side that is setting it, compensated by the fact that the rocks have already done something before the removal happens.

EH are never mandatory on most teams which is why many teams are eager to run defog. That it had been ran with such frequency until this gen is only because it is a lot better than its alternatives. With fini's popularity and the distribution situation getting significantly worse, the opportunity cost of running becomes much higher.

It is still good because Stealth rock nigh broken but it is definitely not mandatory.

 

[Ryolain]

That logic is so flawed, if two turn removal is considered a momentum drain, so is spending two turn (in the case of leads, 1 turn and a free switch) setting up your rocks. In fact, since the setting happens before the removal, the momemtum investment is greater for the side that is setting it, compensated by the fact that the rocks have already done something before the removal happens.

EH are never mandatory on most teams which is why many teams are eager to run defog. That it had been ran with such frequency until this gen is only because it is a lot better than its alternatives. With fini's popularity and the distribution situation getting significantly worse, the opportunity cost of running becomes much higher.

It is still good because Stealth rock is fundamentally broken but it is definitely not mandatory.

This makes no sense, how is the momentum investment greater for the side setting rocks? Defogging is always a reactive play by nature of the fact that you can't do it until hazards have been put up. If your team needs hazards down, then your opponent getting hazards up automatically puts you on the defensive and forces you to waste free turns to try to get your defogger in rather than focusing on setting up your wincon. That's pretty much the definition of losing momentum: your opponent forcing you to make predictable moves that they can take advantage of to generate free turns for themselves.

By no means is this to say that hazard removal is dead, but I don't think the defogger role is as obligatory as it used to be for balance/BO. It's more dependent on your team composition than before.

 

[Eraxxer]

I've already commented on how this meta needs to be changed. But there is something much more important that needs to happen to this meta game before metagross, pheromosa or anything else gets considered for a suspect.

Baton Pass needs to be fixed. There are hordes of these pathetic teams swarming the ladder. Every single one the same, every single one the exact same plays. Scoli + Manaphy + Necrozma + Xurkitree + Filler + Filler. Lead Scoli. Sub/protect. Sub/protect. Sub/protect. Baton pass out to appropriate sweeper. Get 1 or 2 kills (or sweep). When that dies, send out the next sweeper. Continue until it wins. Seriously, this team is entirely skilless but generates so many wins due to the brokenness of the playstyle. It completely works around skill. Instead of needing to play around your opponent, you can literally make the exact same play time and time again, switching into scoli regardless of what they have out. The worst part of this team is the amount of 50/50s it relies on with Scoli's sub/protect mindgames. What it becomes is a 5 headed Aegislash where you can choose your typing and moveset for when you switch to blade forme. It's genuinely the worst thing about this meta which currently needs a lot of change, but this is the most important.

This is partly a rant, but before I posted this, I spent about 2 days considering whether it was just a rant out of annoyance. But it really isn't. I know that it seems angry, but I've weighed these thoughts carefully and it seriously is something that 100% needs to be changed going forward for this meta to be fixed. I'm not demanding a change, but I want to bring it up as a dicussion point - does this playstyle seriously deserve to be allowed? It clearly doesn't require skill or knowledge, it relies on a combination of matchup and 50/50 luck, and overall is completely against what smogon tries to create in its metagames.

 

[adman2]

Now I really want to try a Baton Pass team. If I can win with something, it must be overpowered. I know Scolipede is obvious, but what are other common Baton Passers and receivers?

 

[Dakress]

Now I really want to try a Baton Pass team. If I can win with something, it must be overpowered. I know Scolipede is obvious, but what are other common Baton Passers and receivers?

Ninjask is an alternative Baton Passer. It's only advantage over Scolipede is the Ground inmunity and Defog, though.

About viable BP receivers, the Rule of thumb's that stuff with boosting moves and stat based attacks are they way to go.

The first one can be, but are not necessarily limited to:

• Tail Glow (Manaphy & Xurkitree)
• Sword Dance (Landorus-T, Excadrill, Diggersby, Bewear, Heracross, Haxorus, Garchomp, Crawdaunt, A-Marowak and maaaaybe M-Mawile/Beedrill if they make it before the ban)
• Nasty Plot (Porygon-Z, Thundurus, Mismagius, Togekiss)
• Bulk up (Heracross, Krookodile, Incineroar, Crabominable, Bewear, Kommo-o, Buzzwole)
• Calm Mind (Raikou & Suicune, Clefable, Xatu, Latias, Azelf, Sigilyph, Chandelure, Magearna, Tapu Lele/Fini, Necrozma)
• Quiver Dance (Volcarona & Pheromosa)
• Belly Drum (Snorlax, Charizard-X, Azumarril, Darmanitan, Slurpuff, Kommo-o)
• Z-Conversion/Happy Hour (Porygon-Z, Jirachi, Greninja)
• Or just access to a bunch of random boosting moves (Necrozma).

For stat based moves you only have:

• Stored Power (Necrozma, Espeon, Umbreon, Sylveon, Sygilyph, Togekiss, Latias, Xatu, Clefable, Victini)
• & Power Trip (Krookodile).

EDIT: Forgot to add some important notes:

• Magic Bounce (Espeon & Xatu): Super useful to avoid getting taunted and taken out by Roar/Whirlwind.
• Suicide Leads: Also super useful to avoid having the oposite poke barely survive a hit. While the most popular atm is Excadrill (ignores Magic Bounce with Mold Breaker, has SR and can cripple something with Toxic), other viable pokes can also work, like Azelf (Fast, has SR, Thunder Wave+Toxic, Taunt, Dual Screens and Explosion), Froslass (Fast, has spikes, Thunder Wave+Toxic+Will O'Wisp, Taunt and Destiny Bond), Klefki (Prankster, Spikes, Thunder Wave and Screens) and Smeargle (who has all of the above but lacks speed, an useful ability bulk)
• Air Ballon: Helps you get a free turn with things weak to ground, like Xurkitree and Magearna.
• M-Metagross: Not really exclusive to Scolipass, but with it's support it can run a bulky offensive set with an Adamant nature.

Finally, some stuff you need to be wary about:

• Hoopa-U (?): It can get past Scolipede with Hyperspace Fury/Hole. It would be a solid way to beat Scolipass if it wasn't for the fact that the genie's OHKO'd by an uninvested X-Scissor.
• Setup Sweepers: You really want these to be crippled before attemping to sweep, otherwise they'll get out of control and destroy you instead (Dragonite, Salamance, Landorus-T, etc.)
• Haze: Can completely negate your boosts. Fortunately, the only viable OU users are Toxapex, Mantine & Fini, all of twhich are weak against Xurkitree.
• Unaware Clefable: While Xurkitree has no problems getting past it, Manaphy struggles quite a lot. Be careful with the timing if you're using Waterium-Z with it.

 

[Photofluid]

This makes no sense, how is the momentum investment greater for the side setting rocks? Defogging is always a reactive play by nature of the fact that you can't do it until hazards have been put up. If your team needs hazards down, then your opponent getting hazards up automatically puts you on the defensive and forces you to waste free turns to try to get your defogger in rather than focusing on setting up your wincon. That's pretty much the definition of losing momentum: your opponent forcing you to make predictable moves that they can take advantage of to generate free turns for themselves.

By no means is this to say that hazard removal is dead, but I don't think the defogger role is as obligatory as it used to be for balance/BO. It's more dependent on your team composition than before.

Simply speaking, momentum snowballs itself. Hence early tempo investment always worth more than delayed tempo investment.

Your argument of putting the other side on the defensive is simply wrong. At the turn that set you set up rocks, your best case would be yourself ending up at a bad matchup, assuming your opponent switches, or, you have given your opponent an entire free turn. NO, you are clearly NOT putting your opponent on defensive, you are putting yourself on defensive.

If you manage to take back the momentum without getting your rocks removed, THEN we get into the situation you stated.That happens sufficiently often, which is why people uses EH. Yet that is by no mean a guarantee.

And this is also why suicide lead exists, as the easiest way to grab momentum back is to sac a pokemon.

Btw, I can go on from here to explain another reason why stealth rock is getting worse this gen, that is the fall of the spinners. The great spinners of the past like Starmie and Excadril simply gets a lot worse right now. At the first glance it should mean stealth rock becomes harder to counter. Yet with Fini coming in to compensate, perhaps overly, this void, it just means it is harder to keep rocks on your opponent's side of the field, as, you know, sometimes you also want rocks off your own field.

That EH are getting worse ultimately makes EH removals themselves a lot less of a necessity. Ofc if you are running volcanora etc. you should be running counters against the single most broken aspect of the game that also screws your team, otherwise the alternatives are becoming a lot more attractive with a decreased opportunity cost.

 

[volx757]

Simply speaking, momentum snowballs itself. Hence early tempo investment always worth more than delayed tempo investment.

Your argument of putting the other side on the defensive is simply wrong. At the turn that set you set up rocks, your best case would be yourself ending up at a bad matchup, assuming your opponent switches, or, you have given your opponent an entire free turn. NO, you are clearly NOT putting your opponent on defensive, you are putting yourself on defensive.

If you manage to take back the momentum without getting your rocks removed, THEN we get into the situation you stated.That happens sufficiently often, which is why people uses EH. Yet that is by no mean a guarantee.

The reason it costs less momentum to set than to remove is because your opponent doesn't know if/when you're going to set rocks. If I bring in Lando, you can guess that hey, he might set rocks. But he also might EQ, knock off, u-turn, SD, rock polish, explode even? So you very well could make a play you think is optimal based on your guess that Lando is going to set rocks, like hard switching to fini on that turn. BUT then, hey, it used knock off instead, and now your fini went from having semi-reliable recovery to no recovery.
If, on the other hand, the Lando does rock as you guessed it would, then YOUR next move is obvious. You're going to defog. So now, fini is clearing both your hazards and mine, and I get a free switch into whatever I want.

That's a 1 turn gain. By that I mean, in the original scenario we had Lando vs some Other Mon. I want to get my sweeper in, but hard switching into this Other Mon is a bad play. So, instead I set rocks, you bring in fini, you defog as I go to my sweeper, and now I have my sweeper in for free AND get a free turn of setup as you switch fini out.

In summary: the turn you set rocks does not necessarily result in you being left in a bad matchup, because they don't know you're going to set rocks. The opponent must predict perfectly to achieve that scenario. BUT, when you bring in your defogger after I rocked, I know EXACTLY what you're going to do, and it's much easier for me take advantage of that. Ryolain really put it best when he said that removing hazards is, by definition, a reactionary play, and thus is categorically a defensive play, implying the removing side does not have the momentum.

-removed the rest of the quoted post cause I agree with it.


EDIT: here's a replay to demonstrate what I mean. Granted, it's not high ladder or an exemplary game in any way, but it makes clear what otherwise might be confusing from the wordy paragraph above. In this replay, I lose 3 mons setting rocks (dude got good rolls all around), all appears to be lost, but wait! As soon as rocks are up my dude goes to fini. On the turn he defogs I go gyara, and get a free DD. assuming none of his mons were scarfers, it was over right there regardless of what he does next. I grabbed a second dd just in case tho.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-530510245
here's another, the sweep was ended by scarf-orus but the defog bait is clear
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-530911397

 

[Photofluid]

The reason it costs less momentum to set than to remove is because your opponent doesn't know if/when you're going to set rocks. If I bring in Lando, you can guess that hey, he might set rocks. But he also might EQ, knock off, u-turn, SD, rock polish, explode even? So you very well could make a play you think is optimal based on your guess that Lando is going to set rocks, like hard switching to fini on that turn. BUT then, hey, it used knock off instead, and now your fini went from having semi-reliable recovery to no recovery.
If, on the other hand, the Lando does rock as you guessed it would, then YOUR next move is obvious. You're going to defog. So now, fini is clearing both your hazards and mine, and I get a free switch into whatever I want.

That's a 1 turn gain. By that I mean, in the original scenario we had Lando vs some Other Mon. I want to get my sweeper in, but hard switching into this Other Mon is a bad play. So, instead I set rocks, you bring in fini, you defog as I go to my sweeper, and now I have my sweeper in for free AND get a free turn of setup as you switch fini out.

In summary: the turn you set rocks does not necessarily result in you being left in a bad matchup, because they don't know you're going to set rocks. The opponent must predict perfectly to achieve that scenario. BUT, when you bring in your defogger after I rocked, I know EXACTLY what you're going to do, and it's much easier for me take advantage of that. Ryolain really put it best when he said that removing hazards is, by definition, a reactionary play, and thus is categorically a defensive play, implying the removing side does not have the momentum.

-removed the rest of the quoted post cause I agree with it.


EDIT: here's a replay to demonstrate what I mean. Granted, it's not high ladder or an exemplary game in any way, but it makes clear what otherwise might be confusing from the wordy paragraph above. In this replay, I lose 3 mons setting rocks (dude got good rolls all around), all appears to be lost, but wait! As soon as rocks are up my dude goes to fini. On the turn he defogs I go gyara, and get a free DD. assuming none of his mons were scarfers, it was over right there regardless of what he does next. I grabbed a second dd just in case tho.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-530510245
here's another, the sweep was ended by scarf-orus but the defog bait is clear
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-530911397

Well I think those replays are demonstrating the downside of Fini moreso than it is for hazard removal, and I don't think the weakness of Fini should be generalized over all spinner/defogger.

You are getting a free switch only because the remover is Fini. Fini was so hyped up initially because she checks so many threats in the meta, and more importantly, because she can always get rid of the EH. People has since adapted to give up about maintaining EH, and instead tries to get pass Fini herself, and have that as their wincon. Hence Fini's performance in SPL and eventually the rank drop to A.

If it is a different remover you are definitely not getting a free switch like you do against Fini, because dude you have to respect the EQ from Excadrill or the Hydro Pump from Starmie and the same cannot be said about Fini.

Also, you have suicided a pokemon to regrab the momentum in the first replay(a case I have coincidentally discussed previously), and your opponent has messed up the double switches in the second game which essentially gave you free rocks. Plus, I think both players in the replays have misplayed their Finis. They got hard baited because you don't have a Mega in your team, but they should know by now that the Supersonic Skystrike Gyarados(B) is actually more threatening than its mega form(B-) and does get pass Fini.

I also think Moxie Gyara kinda exaggerated your gain because something so snowbally can take an arm if you feed it a finger.

 

[adman2]

I think Baton Pass as it is implemented now is over-hyped after playing with it for a while. It's hardly "skilless". If it were, I would be at the top of the ladder by now, rather than the mediocre rankings. :p

Sure, it can crush bad teams, but you learn ways to deal with it once you start running into decent players. I learned this the hard way. It wouldn't be Smogon if teams didn't have Stealth Rock. Scolipede, the main Baton Passer given the current restrictions, is weak to Stealth Rock, and can only switch in a few times before dying. Defogging forces you to lose valuable momentum, and many players use Spikes Protean Greninja to add to the entry hazard pain.

Landorus-Therian, one of the most common Pokemon on the ladder, will discourage Scolipede from Baton Passing to a physical attacker, allowing you to U-Turn or switch into your special wall of choice. Taunting Scolipede forces it to switch out without Baton Passing (unless you're Taunting with a Bug-weak Pokemon for some reason).

Even if Scolipede Baton Passes Speed Boosts, I often see competent opponents paralyzing the next Pokemon with Thunder Wave. Heatran's Lava Plume, Will-O-Wisp, and Scald can cripple physical attackers.

And what discussion about setup sweepers would be complete without Whirlwind, Roar, and even Dragon Tail? Yes, I know there's Magic Bounce, but Espeon has paper-thin defenses and has a crummy selection of attacks, Xatu is weak to Stealth Rock, and Sableye requires a Mega Evolution and isn't really used as a speedy sweeper in the first place. Absol also requires a Mega Evolution and has weak defenses. Any stall team worthy of the title will have Toxapex with Haze.

I even encountered an Imposter Ditto with Red Card that was surprisingly effective.

Really, if your team has decent defenses and you can guess your opponent's tactics, you'll do fine.

 

[Leo]

I think Baton Pass as it is implemented now is over-hyped after playing with it for a while. It's hardly "skilless". If it were, I would be at the top of the ladder by now, rather than the mediocre rankings. :p

Sure, it can crush bad teams, but you learn ways to deal with it once you start running into decent players. I learned this the hard way. It wouldn't be Smogon if teams didn't have Stealth Rock. Scolipede, the main Baton Passer given the current restrictions, is weak to Stealth Rock, and can only switch in a few times before dying. Defogging forces you to lose valuable momentum, and many players use Spikes Protean Greninja to add to the entry hazard pain.

Landorus-Therian, one of the most common Pokemon on the ladder, will discourage Scolipede from Baton Passing to a physical attacker, allowing you to U-Turn or switch into your special wall of choice. Taunting Scolipede forces it to switch out without Baton Passing (unless you're Taunting with a Bug-weak Pokemon for some reason).

Even if Scolipede Baton Passes Speed Boosts, I often see competent opponents paralyzing the next Pokemon with Thunder Wave. Heatran's Lava Plume, Will-O-Wisp, and Scald can cripple physical attackers.

And what discussion about setup sweepers would be complete without Whirlwind, Roar, and even Dragon Tail? Yes, I know there's Magic Bounce, but Espeon has paper-thin defenses and has a crummy selection of attacks, Xatu is weak to Stealth Rock, and Sableye requires a Mega Evolution and isn't really used as a speedy sweeper in the first place. Absol also requires a Mega Evolution and has weak defenses. Any stall team worthy of the title will have Toxapex with Haze.

I even encountered an Imposter Ditto with Red Card that was surprisingly effective.

Really, if your team has decent defenses and you can guess your opponent's tactics, you'll do fine.

I disagree with Baton Pass being "overhyped" and with most of the countermeasures you mention. First you say Stealth Rock, which is mandatory in any team, is able to cripple Scoli and limit its switchins. While this is true, when are you realistically setting up rocks against BP? On Scoli to give it a free Substitute and put yourself into an awkward position or once they've already passed the boosts? When playing against BP you need to maintain the momentum at all costs and giving the BP user a free turn can cost you the game. Landorus-T might discourage Scolipede from BPing into physical attackers, but they still got their other mons that don't mind the Atk drop and "going to your special wall of choice" isn't really a valid argument because if you're using Landorus then you're using Offense and what "special wall" that fits on offense beats manaphy? AV Tangrowth might take an Ice Beam but unless it's the rare Leaf Storm it won't OHKO. Even Leaf Storm doesn't ko from full. Taunting Scolipede doesn't work on practice because after protecting once it will outspeed any relevant Taunt user unless you use Taunt Thundurus which is a bad set. Espeon is mandatory on any good Baton Pass team (I know the one everyone's spamming doesn't have it but that team works differently and has other ways around common BP answers) and it bounces back Thunder Wave and Whirlwind so those aren't stopping the BP user from sweeping. And please don't mention unviable mons as counters such as "Red Card Ditto". Honestly, predicting isn't enough to beat BP and it only crushing bad teams is a complete overstatement because the archetype is indeed effective, I'm not trying to attack you but the fact that you don't get wins using BP doesn't make it easily manageable

 

[cityscapes]

Beedrill @ Beedrillite
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drill Run
- X-Scissor / U-Turn
- Poison Jab

The popular opinion seems to be that this mon is outclassed by Pheromosa, but when paired with a Magnezone it can absolutely destroy stall teams if Quagsire has taken prior damage, something Pheromosa could only dream of doing.

+2 252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

U-Turn is slashed in the third slot because it might look like a waste of Swords Dance boosts, but it helps Beedrill be terrifying against offense teams as well, and X-Scissor has limited use against stall.

Of course Mega Beedrill has counters such as Celesteela, Skarmory, Landorus-T and so on, but I think that its stall matchup is really being underestimated.

 

[adman2]

Which attacks should go on Espeon to keep it alive? Dazzling Gleam won't help against the various Steel types. Is everyone using HP Fire or Ground or something?

The problem I have when using Baton Pass is that even when you successfully pass on the boosts, the receiver takes a hit, since a lot of opponents break the Substitute.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Which attacks should go on Espeon to keep it alive? Dazzling Gleam won't help against the various Steel types. Is everyone using HP Fire or Ground or something?

The problem I have when using Baton Pass is that even when you successfully pass on the boosts, the receiver takes a hit, since a lot of opponents break the Substitute.

Dazzling Gleam is only for Dark types. Stored Power should be gaining enough power to not care about resists.

 

[onlyheretocomplain]

Is the problem with BP teams the move itself, or Scolipede? What would a BP team with Ninjask instead of Scolipede look like, and would it be as effective?

 

[Leo]

Is the problem with BP teams the move itself, or Scolipede? What would a BP team with Ninjask instead of Scolipede look like, and would it be as effective?

Ninjask is trash, there's no reason to use it when you have Scolipede as your Speed Passer. You can literally set up rocks without fearing getting swept because it takes 50% from it. Honestly I think BP as a whole is problematic but Ninjask is just outclassed and therefore unviable.

 

[Paraplegic]

Is the problem with BP teams the move itself, or Scolipede? What would a BP team with Ninjask instead of Scolipede look like, and would it be as effective?

The problem is baton pass itself. While a team with ninjask wouldn't be AS effective, I guarantee it would still function pretty well, since all scolipede does is spam protect and sub, which ninjask could also do, albeit you would be more susceptible to priority. Scolipede without pass wouldn't ever be a problem, on the contrary its a nice edition to the meta, since sd waterium-z is a really cool sweeper.