Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Sueshidragon]

Oh boy, discussion points! Here's my thoughts on these.

A ---> A-: Disagree
Underestimating Gengar is a VERY bad thing to do. Specs Gengar is a terrifying attacker with incredible coverage and an amazing speed tier, forcing people to make decisive switches and even sacks repeatedly over the course of the match every time it comes in. There's tons of great things it can partner up with, forming cores that net this thing kill after kill, to the point where just its presence causes people to gamble and overthink. Sure, I may be overstating it a bit, but this thing has won me game after game, and there's no reason it should be in A-. It's great matchups against OU's best megas (namely Medicham) only help it.

A ---> A-: Disagree
Keldeo is in a UU league of it's own, how it got down there is anybody's guess. Secret Sword in and of itself is a wonderful pressuring tool, harassing SpDef switch ins like Rotom and Chansey. It's coverage movepool, while sorta crappy, gets the job done, and it can put out enough power when backed by an item that it definitely has as much impact as Pokemon like Mega Mawile, Tapu Koko, and Gengar, all other A rank Mons. A- is simply not doing it enough justice.

A- ---> B+: Agree
Heracross was awesome when it first came out, primarily becuase it ruined BP teams and nobody knew what to counter it with, since nobody ran Flying type moves. However, the BP ban and resurgence of Mega Pinsir and SS Lando-T have been a serious pain for this thing, making it have to be played much more warily than it wants to be. That base 75 Speed isn't doing it any favors, either.

B ---> B+: Disagree
I don't see any reason Mimikyu should be B+. It is COMPLETELY walled by OU's premier physical walls unless it's at +6 (and who lets it get there anyways.) Tapu Lele dances on this thing's grave as easy fodder if its Disguise is down (which isn't hard to accomplish), and it's only half decent speed and attack when unboosted don't help it at all. BP being gone and Mega Heracross's decreased viability don't help this thing at all, and even hurt it a little, as bringing it in against the start of a BP team usually meant you could get more Dances in. That's not the case anymore, though, so nothing merits a rise for it.

B ---> B+: Agree
(See my earlier post.) Weavile is great. A Knock Off-using revenge killer with ample enough coverage to keep people guessing and in fear until it's movepool is revealed. This thing absolutely merits a rise, as even the thought of Knock Off sends Lele and Latios running.

I can't really comment on Reuniclus, never actually used one. Ever.

 

[UltraBallz]

A couple quick thoughts on the discussion points. I may come back and write a little more later when I have some more time:

Keldeo drop: Disagree. If we were talking about the scarf set in particular I would for sure agree. Still checking ash-ninja is nice but its important role of revenge killing volc is much harder with charti berry sets becoming common. However something I did start to use again, as the poster above me mentioned, is specs keld and it is very good. Most builds of teams now have no sturdy check to specs keldeo as they rely on blanket checks like av magearna and tang to check it, both which lose to secret sword.

Reuni Rise: Strongly agree. Phys def calm mind Reuni is extremely hard to beat and is among the best medicham checks currently. Works as a great late game wincon and can soak up hits from a lot of the common offensive threats.

Weaville Rise: Yes. As lati becomes better so does weaville. The rise of mew also helps offensive dark types and pursuit trappers like weaville in general. Losing metagross helped this too, while on paper it seems that it would be a good revenge killer it lost to bullet punch which was pretty damn common on gross this gen.

Edit: A couple more thoughts.

1. I'd personally be against a Mimikyu rise. Probably bias here but I just don't like this thing and am always amazed by how little damage it puts out. I understand its a cleaner, but teams have to be extremely weakened for it to do its job plus it only excels on one playstyle so I think it fits fine in B. wouldn't be that surprised if it moved up though.

2. Specs Gar is still a beast but i guess logically if pursuit trappers are becoming more viable gengar should become less? idk I'd be fine with either

3. Hera drop? sure it's better on paper than how it actually performs

 

[vso]

---> B+ : Agree
Mimikyu is a Pokemon which is a huge threat to many common offensive teams. With sticky webs being as good as it is, and Mimikyu being used incredibly often as a great spinblocker that forces out some common taunt users like Ash Greninja, Tapu Lele, and Tapu Koko. It also appreciates Sticky Webs slowing down faster threats like non Scarf Greninja, non scarf Tapu Koko, Medicham-M, Non Scarf Gengar, and non Scarf Garchomp. Even outside of Sticky Web, Mimikyu remains as a powerful win condition that can do a number to offensive builds. In addition, it can severely weaken walls like Celesteela, Magearna, Defensive Landorus-T, and Skarmory. If Mimikyu is paired with powerful breakers, the core can do a lot to offensive and Defensive teams alike.

Mimikyu's biggest purpose comes from being a brilliant Sticky Webs abuser. Sticky Web was always an incredibly potent playstyle, and is a playstyle that dominates the metagame in the current shape of SM OU. Even with the rise of defogger after the banning of Mega Metagross, Sticky Webs remains as one of the better playstyles. Mimikyu is a Pokemon that is. run on many common Sticky Webs teams including both NJNP Webs and Thundurus Webs. Having a Pokemon to discourage Defoggers other than Mega Scizor (which is declining in popularity) to get off Defogs is extremely helpful for Sticky Webs in addition to preventing the best Spinner in Starmie from not only coming in, but also Spinning. Excadrill doesn't appreciate taking hits like a +2 Shadow Claw from a Life Orb adamant Mimikyu, and can only avoid that if it's Scarf, which is very niche.

The rise in Dark types like Tyranitar and Weavile further help Mimikyu, as under Sticky Webs, Mimikyu can destroy them. A drop in popularity of Choice Scarf Garchomp and Choice Scarf Keldeo in favor of Pokemon like Choice Scarf Latios helps Mimikyu as it can just Shadow Sneak Latios, and failed to outspeed either of the previous scarfers even with Sticky Webs. Furthermore, the surge of fatter Ghosts and Psychics following Mega Medicham"s release continues to help Mimikyu, as it excels in beating them.

Tl;Dr : Mimikyu should get a rise to B+ as it is one of the most terrifying set up sweepers in the tier. Its ability to fit onto playstyles like Sticky Webs, Hyper Offense, and Offense helps it. It can also absolutely destroy many offensive teams.

 

[DeltaRott]

I finally feel like I might be able to actively contribute to the discussion points, so here I am. Hopefully this is viewed as a constructive post.

A ---> A-: Disagree. Although one can make the argument that Tyranitar's presence makes Gengar's life harder, in reality it just means it can't mindlessly click Shadow Ball as often as it used to with its Specs set. It can still kill non SpDef Tyranitar easily with Focus Blast(252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 524-620 (153.2 - 181.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO), and it really just requires the right prediction. Although there are situations where Gengar will inevitably fall to Pursuit trapping(the rare Alolan Muk, Chople Tar, Weavile if not scarf Focus Blast, etc), its great qualities such as being able to come in to revenge kill so much of the tier and then click the appropriate move cannot be understated.

B---> B+: Agree. Every major ban and trend shift in the Sun and Moon meta game thus far has only benefitted Weavile immensely. It loves the rise of Zygarde and Mew in particular. Zygarde is often a major offensive threat with its band set and/or a wincon with coil/DD sets, while Mew is a lot of balance/BO's go to defogger and eliminating it means that hazards are usually up on the other side of the field for the remainder of the game. Other notable top tier threats it can thrash include Landorus-Therian(even being able to stop it at +2 speed with a little chip thanks to Ice Shard), Garchomp, Tangrowth, while being able to pursuit trap Gengar(ironic considering I just disagreed with it coming down from A, but still) and Latios. B+ seems like an appropriate rank for it, considering that it can knock off - no pun intended - a lot of top tier threats but still suffers from issues that mean it can be played around.

A- to B+: Agree. Mega Heracross can do some serious damage once it's in, but it has to make a lot of choices regarding its set that really hurt its ability to perform. For one, just using Megacross means that you're already putting yourself in a terrible position vs. Mega Pinsir, which, to reflect what previous users have said before me, is one of the hottest trends right now and could arguably be the best mega in the tier right now. Additionally, I've been seeing a lot of Supersonic Skystrike Landorus-T as of late that can also really ruin Hera's day. I also think that the decision between Substitute or Swords Dance is a real issue for Mega Hera these days, as it really appreciates the extra power, but doesn't appreciate how easily it can be forced out by things like Pinsir, Heatran, etc. It can run Substitute, but then it can find itself coming to a stop against bulkier teams. Rewording this point actually; I'm still nearly positive it can't break Toxapex without boosting. That was the point, and I realize this might've been poorly worded.

B ---> B+: Agree. Disguise as an ability almost guarantees that Mimikyu will leave its mark on the match somehow, whether that be through a desperate switch-in to preserve another mon or setting up a Swords Dance that allows it to take out 1 or 2 mons. I feel like it should also rise based on the merit that it's a staple on Sticky Web teams, which is, as Gary mentioned, one of the best archetypes to run right now.

A ---> A-: Agree. Just going off my own personal experience, every Protean Greninja I've built has run Extrasensory for Keldeo and Toxapex. And a lot I've faced have also run the very same. But that's beside the point. Keldeo used to be a wonderful switch-in to Greninja(and Ash-Greninja) because it could tank nearly everything it wanted to use and fire back with a move of its own. However, seeing as how even Ash Greninja is running Extrasensory nowadays, it can't accomplish this nearly as often. I personally also used Scarf Keldeo when I felt like I needed a fast cleaner and one that would give me insurance vs. Volcarona, but seeing as how Charti Berry Rona is only gaining more and more prominence as of late, it might not even keep that niche. Specs is still cool, but I don't feel that's enough to keep it in an A ranking when its qualities of checking Greninja and Volcarona were what really brought it back to the OU tier.

B ---> B+: Undecided. I can't really comment on this because I don't have much experience playing with or fighting Reuniclus, but I'll be keeping my eye on it. I think its bulk is really appreciated vs. things like Megacham and it can be a good setup mon in the long run, but when applying the same logic to most of the things I've been talking about here, it can be stopped by Mew(Taunt), broken by Ash-Greninja's Dark Pulse or Gengar's Shadow Ball, bopped by Weavile/Mimikyu, and so on. If you had to press me for an answer I would say I disagree on paper, but I really only brought up these points because I didn't see much discussion on the mon from anyone else. I'd love to see it in action/built with though.

While I'm at it, I also want to bring up a discussion point about a mon I feel is under the radar right now:

Mega Aerodactyl - C +---> B- : I feel that Aerodactyl can break a lot of defensive options right now with an AoA set of Stone Edge, Wing Attack, Fire Fang, and Ice Fang. Stone Edge can really mess up flying types like Zapdos, which is specifically one of the best mons in the tier right now for its defensive prowess(stopping M-Pins and Celesteela offensively while tearing into things with its 3 attack set, or alternatively using Defog), pressure bulky grasses like Tangy with Wing Attack, and ruin things like Ferrothorn with Fire Fang(252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 256-304 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) and quad weak to ice threats like Zygarde and Garchomp(252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 324-384 (90.7 - 107.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock).

It can also do some nice damage vs. Lando-T, even when Intimidated. (-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 204-244 (53.4 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)

With just a little bit of chip on mons, Mega Aerodactyl becomes a very potent offensive threat that is difficult to force out without priority like Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch or scarfers. This is very possible and easy to do thanks to the prevalence of hazards in today's meta. And while I'm on the subject of hazards, not only does Mega Aerodactyl check Mega Pinsir, but it is also immune to Sticky Webs thanks to being a flying type. All of this leads me to believe that Mega Aerodactyl is a more potent Pokemon than the likes of Breloom, Buzzwole, or Primarina, which are scarcely seen for critical issues of their own that have very minimal gains. Mega Aero's gains, however, directly resonate with the state of the meta right now, and so I believe it deserves a rise to B-.

 

[SunshineFuture]

B ---> B+ (Agree)
This thing is pretty good. Not only can it run sets that are defensive or use Calm Mind, but it is an amazing Trick Room setter. It is arguably the best setter in the tier in terms of having extremely low speed and still being viable. It helps out the entire team with Trick Room, including Mega Mawile, Mega Steelix, and more. It can even open the door for a All-Out OTR Attacking Magearna set. Overall, it is rather versatile for something in B tier, and fits on multiple playstyles. Raise this one.

B ---> B+ (Agree)
Mimikyu is arguably one of the best late-game cleaners in the tier, with its ability Disguise and access to Swords Dance. It can usually punch holes into balance or HO teams, even before late-game. It also has nearly perfect neutral STAB coverage, meaning the only things that can usually switch into Mimikyu that are any good are Ferrothorn and Scizor. The former is stall which is beyond what Mimikyu can do anyways, while the latter is dropping in usage without MegaGross.

 

[palkia246]

Like most people that've posted so far, I very much disagree with the notion to drop Gengar. I think people in favor of a drop are really only looking at some meta trends that hurt it when in reality, plenty also benefit it. The rise of Weavile is troublesome, but Tyranitar's presence isn't much of a problem considering it can still outspeed and KO with Focus Blast (has to predict on the switch if Specs). What I like most about Gengar right now is that bulky Psychics are everywhere atm. Mew and Reunicilus have become very important to check lately, and the rise of Jirachi, Slowbro and its mega evolution also help a lot. Gengar also flourishes with Spikes support, which is very good in the current metagame. All in all, despite the rise of Weavile, Gengar still has very limited counterplay and enjoys the rise of various Psychic-type threats, which is what makes me think that for now, a drop isn't justified. (AV Magearna, which is probably its best check, is also worn down super easily, so there's that as well)

Just so I don't look like a complete bandwagon, I'd like to suggest that Slowbro rises to B. Slowbro's a really good mon right now, considering its capable of checking a lot of really important threats. Mega Mawile, Mega Medicham, non Dark Pulse Gren, Zygarde, Garchomp, and Heatran are all just a few examples of Pokemon that are really common and important to cover that Slowbro can sufficiently check. The combined utility of its typing and pivoting capabilities thanks to Regenerator, as well as the fact that it's just better than a few other defensive mons its ranked with (Alomomola and Mega Venusaur) is enough for me to believe that right now, it's well deserving of a rise, especially considering that I'm pretty sure it's drop was only meant to reflect the Pheromosa metagame before it was banned.

 

[SunshineFuture]

Clefable A- ---> B-

How is this thing A-? It is in no way up to snuff with Mega Medicham, Mega Sableye, etc. Honestly, I just think this thing is misranked to begin with. Z-Moves blow this thing away, and it can't even really do much back to anything. I really don't know what else to say other than this shouldn't have been A- to begin with. It honestly is about on par with Gliscor, so B- works well.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

B---> B+: Strongly agree. Not much to say that hasn't been said already. One of your STABs has possibly the most valuable SE coverage in Pokemon, and the other provides unmatched utility + power + neutral coverage. A plethora of popular offense builds just flat out crumble to this thing, honestly. And there are only a handful of safe defensive switch-ins to this thing in the tier (Magearna, Tapu Fini, maybe you could consider Ferrothorn one) and those are notoriously lacking in the recovery department anyway. It can easily set itself or a partner up for late game. Clearly better than any of the Pokemon in B and even many of the Pokemon in B+ imo.

B ---> B+: Agree. I actually don't understand the argument that this Pokemon doesn't pack enough power. First of all, it doesn't have to beat a whole lot of bulky threats, since its STAB combination + ability + SD makes it a serviceable cleaner. But more importantly I think the anti-rise camp just doesn't understand the utility that Mimikyu brings. On Sticky Web teams it's the spinblocker of choice since it makes great use of the hazard support itself, scares out all the common spinners with the threat of setting up, and lets you play a bit more liberally since its ability will negate any single mistake you might happen to make. Since breakers like Mega Pinsir are par for the course on these teams, Mimikyu really doesn't have to worry about defensive answers all that much either, and its unresisted STAB combination is a nightmare for offense to handle.
But as a Trick Room (ab)user, I believe that Mimikyu functions even more effectively on this archetype. It's nearly impossible to undersell how valuable a guaranteed fresh Trick Room is come late game. Having that resource in your back pocket provides one of the safest win conditions I can think of: send in Mimikyu after a member dies, set up Trick Room, set up / attack / Curse / switch out, and just run through the rest of the opposing team. There are many excellent Trick Room teams that don't run Mimikyu, but it fills a role almost nothing else in the game can. After I decide on Magearna + a purely defensive setter (usually Cresselia / Porygon 2), more often than not Mimikyu is my third option.
Basically, its positives extend beyond just raw power, and so it deserves a rise as one of the best niche Pokemon in the tier.

B ---> B+: Undecided. One thing I will say is that, contrary to what a poster above me said, this mon is by no means the best Trick Room setter in the tier when Magearna exists, and unlike Cresselia it can't always come in on an attack and survive the next hit to set up Trick Room. It kind of fills the same role as Mimikyu in that it can be saved as a win condition, but it needs a Sash to do so and just worsens the Mega Heracross / Mega Sableye matchup unnecessarily. It also can't clean by itself as well as Mimikyu can because Psychic STAB doesn't hold a candle to (possibly LO boosted) Ghost / Fairy STAB. On the other hand the defensive CM sets are ridiculously fat and most of its common answers are frail offensive threats that can be dented heavily every time they come in. Still don't know if Reuniclus is ready for a rise, especially since even defensively oriented teams usually carry a Pokemon or two that can take it on, but if it doesn't rise then it's one of the best Pokemon in B by a significant margin.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Clefable A- ---> B-

How is this thing A-? It is in no way up to snuff with Mega Medicham, Mega Sableye, etc. Honestly, I just think this thing is misranked to begin with. Z-Moves blow this thing away, and it can't even really do much back to anything. I really don't know what else to say other than this shouldn't have been A- to begin with. It honestly is about on par with Gliscor, so B- works well.

Unaware Clefable is on par with Gliscor? Unaware Clefable, the Stall staple, should drop three subranks? By your logic, shouldn't Z-Moves invalidate half of the defensive Pokemon in the tier? I'm gonna need to see some evidence, or anything beyond a vague claim on your part.

 

[Random Passerby]

Gengar to drop
I think people underestimate the impact Weavile and Tyranitar rising. With more Dark-types around, Choiced Gengar can't spam its Ghost STAB nilly willy or it risks being Pursuit trapped. Gengar also dislikes Mega Pinsir around as Pinsir can run over it with priority.

Weavile to rise
Weavile thrives in a meta with less Mega Scizor and Tapus running around. While it can't revenge kill Zygarde, Weavile can actually scare out things like Lati@s, Mega Pinsir, Landorus-T and Tangrowth.

EDIT: We all know Gengar OHKOes Ttar / Weavile with Focus Blast but unless you are clairvoyant, you can't predict correctly 100% of the time.

 

[Colonel M]

Definitely can concur with a Gengar drop to A-. On top of Dark-types fat Steel-types such as Celesteela and AV (and to an extent Trick Room) Magearna don't bode well for Gengar either. I strongly agree with Weavile rise too since it can punish many of the Psychic-type trends in the tier with Choice Band Pursuit while still being an annoying gnat for offense to face off against. It's annoyed a lot by Trick Room Magearna, but as Hilomilo pointed out risking a Knock Off is bad news for Assault Vest Magearna.

Also I don't understand anything about the Clefable nomination made above. Comparable to Gliscor? Are you daft? It's practically a stall staple with Unaware and Magic Guard Clefable is a great Stealth Rock user for bulkier teams right now. That Pokemon should not drop anywhere near as close to Gliscor - a mon that barely hangs on to OU with a rather subpar set that is completely walled by threats such as Celesteela.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

A ---> A-: Disagree
This one's kinda surprising tbh. Scarf Keldeo is an amazing revenge killer and arguably the best scarfer in the tier, which is well known. However, I feel like not a lot of people give the specs set the merit it deserves. A lot of people's main switch in to this is Tangrowth, which gets 2hkod by specs sword. The rise in popularity of mons like Celesteela and Magearna makes this even more powerful, as they are also 2hkod by specs sword on the switch. Keldeo loves the lack of solid water resists in the tier and - although prediction reliant - HP electric hurts the water resists that it fears (Tox, Fini, Mantine). No more MegaGross and BP is great news for it as well, and it also enjoys recent "new" mons that arose to check Mega Medi. Not to mention that it still has versatility and can run a stallbreaker Sub CM set (haven't tried that yet, so take that with a grain of salt - just mentioning it can hurt if you expect a choiced set).

A ---> A-: Agree
Honestly, I feel that Gengar is... overrated. Scarf just isn't as good as it once was, and I find myself leaning towards specs in most builds (which is what's popular nowadays, right?). When I do use it, it seems underwhelming for an A mon. Webs suck, Greninja eats this thing alive as it almost always runs extrasensory/dark pulse (one of those two) and Tapu Koko ohkos, and those two are seen on almost every offensive team. Torn-T has actually gotten a bit of traction and carries knock off (watch out for rocks tho), and things like TTar and Weavile are bad for it. Granted, you could argue that Gengar packs FB for this reason, but this is very prediction reliant because most of the time, you want to click shadow ball. Even with specs, this isn't doing as much as I'd want it to to Celesteela and Magearna, especially after Magearna has started running SpDef AV sets. Zygarde troubles it, and for some reason I've started seeing more scarf Lele's as well as Mega Zams. Drop it.

A- ---> B+: Disagree
Let's actually delve a little deeper on this one, since from what I've read, most people have said that Mega Pinsir + SS Lando is basically sufficient to drop this thing:
Although true that the meta has found ways to hurt it in Pinsir and SS Lando, B+ just doesn't feel like home for Mega Heracross.

1) It still lacks switch ins and the rise of bulky psychics and darks, such as Mew, Reuni, TTar, Weavile, etc.. are amazing for it. Mega Medicham was a nightmare for people and the rise of mons to counter that makes Hera's job easier.
2) This also doesn't take away from the fact that it's a nightmare for bulkier, slower builds to deal with - I don't really understand how someone said it struggled breaking past them lol. If you look at bulkier teams/mons in the rankings, Heracross still shits on things like Celesteela, Magearna, Tangrowth, Ferro, Toxapex, Chansey, and Mew (those are the ones that came to mind first). Did I mention it's a good Zygarde switch in?
3) The banning of BP does hurt it but webs are still very much a thing, and Heracross loves abusing them. Pinsir is a better abuser of webs, imo, but this doesn't take away from the fact that Heracross can still be effective with them.
4) I also don't agree with using the fact that it has to choose between SD / Sub as something against it. This can easily be alleviated depending on the build. The fact that it can get both, and one is just as useful as the other, means that a wrong prediction can cost you a lot. Substitute by no means makes it come to a stop vs bulkier teams, as bulkier teams have a hard time breaking the sub in the first place.

Yes, it obviously still has drawbacks such as being relatively easy to be forced out by things like Pinsir, Lando, and Heatran, but so does other stuff in A-. Char-Y has to deal with rocks and is also easy to outspeed+pressure, Latios doesn't like being locked into one specific move with the rise of darks, Zone is also easy to outspeed/revenge and is very matchup reliant, and the same can be said about Mega Zor and TTar. Simply saying that Lando-T and Pinsir force this out is not, imo, enough to warrant a drop due to its upsides.

I loved using Reuniclus back in ORAS, but haven't used it in SM unfortunately. Is it best with a TR set or a CM+Recover set? Also can't say anything on the other two, as I haven't used them, but Weavile seems to be getting a lot of love.

Yeah, Clef is good where it is, lol. I still love using this as my SR setter and pairing with encore. Can't count the times people have tried QD'ing with their Volc just to get encore'd an trapped by Duggy.

 

[Selihido]

B---> B+: Strongly agree. Not much to say that hasn't been said already. One of your STABs has possibly the most valuable SE coverage in Pokemon, and the other provides unmatched utility + power + neutral coverage. A plethora of popular offense builds just flat out crumble to this thing, honestly. And there are only a handful of safe defensive switch-ins to this thing in the tier (Magearna, Tapu Fini, maybe you could consider Ferrothorn one) and those are notoriously lacking in the recovery department anyway. It can easily set itself or a partner up for late game. Clearly better than any of the Pokemon in B and even many of the Pokemon in B+ imo.

B ---> B+: Agree. I actually don't understand the argument that this Pokemon doesn't pack enough power. First of all, it doesn't have to beat a whole lot of bulky threats, since its STAB combination + ability + SD makes it a serviceable cleaner. But more importantly I think the anti-rise camp just doesn't understand the utility that Mimikyu brings. On Sticky Web teams it's the spinblocker of choice since it makes great use of the hazard support itself, scares out all the common spinners with the threat of setting up, and lets you play a bit more liberally since its ability will negate any single mistake you might happen to make. Since breakers like Mega Pinsir are par for the course on these teams, Mimikyu really doesn't have to worry about defensive answers all that much either, and its unresisted STAB combination is a nightmare for offense to handle.
But as a Trick Room (ab)user, I believe that Mimikyu functions even more effectively on this archetype. It's nearly impossible to undersell how valuable a guaranteed fresh Trick Room is come late game. Having that resource in your back pocket provides one of the safest win conditions I can think of: send in Mimikyu after a member dies, set up Trick Room, set up / attack / Curse / switch out, and just run through the rest of the opposing team. There are many excellent Trick Room teams that don't run Mimikyu, but it fills a role almost nothing else in the game can. After I decide on Magearna + a purely defensive setter (usually Cresselia / Porygon 2), more often than not Mimikyu is my third option.
Basically, its positives extend beyond just raw power, and so it deserves a rise as one of the best niche Pokemon in the tier.

B ---> B+: Undecided. One thing I will say is that, contrary to what a poster above me said, this mon is by no means the best Trick Room setter in the tier when Magearna exists, and unlike Cresselia it can't always come in on an attack and survive the next hit to set up Trick Room. It kind of fills the same role as Mimikyu in that it can be saved as a win condition, but it needs a Sash to do so and just worsens the Mega Heracross / Mega Sableye matchup unnecessarily. It also can't clean by itself as well as Mimikyu can because Psychic STAB doesn't hold a candle to (possibly LO boosted) Ghost / Fairy STAB. On the other hand the defensive CM sets are ridiculously fat and most of its common answers are frail offensive threats that can be dented heavily every time they come in. Still don't know if Reuniclus is ready for a rise, especially since even defensively oriented teams usually carry a Pokemon or two that can take it on, but if it doesn't rise then it's one of the best Pokemon in B by a significant margin.

In regards to your Mimikyu point, you're right, I don't see the utility that Mimikyu brings. In fact I hate the idea of a Mimikyu rise, though maybe I'm biased because I've never personally found Mimikyu hard to deal with. You mentioned that it's the premier spinblocker for sticky web teams, which I agree with, but since defog is the much more common hazard removal option I don't see that bringing much to the table. Additionally, I DO agree that Mimikyu can be a serviceable cleaner after a setup, but it pretty much has to setup before that can happen, which is only guaranteed once per match. That's fine if it's saved entirely til late game, but I would argue that there are better options that have similar immediate power to what Mimikyu can dish out once it has set up, and so can be used to apply pressure/revenge kill throughout a match. Admittedly, nothing else has that sweet stab combination, but the ghost stab is kinda useless what with shadow claw only having 70 base power.

On trick room, it's my opinion that there are better options for almost the same benefit. Sure nothing is as guaranteed as Mimikyu setting up a trick room but Cresselia and Uxie offer ALMOST that same level of guarantee in addition to providing good defensive utility throughout the match.

In general, while Mimikyu does have niches on two specific team archetypes, and that warrants a B rank, it's my opinion that those niches are small and don't deserve a B+ rank. I see your arguments for the rise, but I simply disagree unless there's another niche I've overlooked.

 

[false]

gengar a to a-
first off, gengar. somewhat of an unknown quantity in early sm, it is starting to settle down and we're beginning to see where it truly sits, and what impact it has on the metagame. while gengar has obviously solidified itself as a fantastic offensive pokemon, recent metagame trends have made the current landscape far less favourable for it. the increase of pursuit trappers such as weavile and tyranitar make it so that choiced variants of gengar have to be very careful when choosing what move to lock into at fear of being removed from the game permanently. choice specs, arguably gengar's best set, is still a potent wallbreaking set but the ban of mega metagross has led to magearna becoming the premier steel-type in ou right now, further hindering gengar's ability to bust open teams as quickly. tapu fini usage also appears to be decreasing, which hurts gengar as it is loses another of only a small group of pokemon on bulky offense that it can safely pivot into. i'm ok with the drop

keldeo a to a-
unfortunately a lot of the recent metagame trends have been unkind to keldeo. off the top of my head a few of those trends are; latios slowly becoming more popular, charti berry volcarona being more popular, mew's popularity, tangrowth still being good, mantine popularity has jumped a bit, and ash-greninja commonly runs spikes now. while keldeo is obviously still a top-tier choice scarf user and an underrated choice specs user, it just doesn't seem to have the pull on the metagame that other a-ranked stuff like zapdos, garchomp, and ferrothorn do, drop is fine here.

mega heracross a- to b+
currently undecided on this because i honestly just haven't used mega heracross a ton since its release. looking at it now that bp isn't a thing, it doesn't really appear that mega heracross is actually any worse of a pokemon post ban. yes, it was obviously a strong pokemon when facing baton pass, but its not like it's now not as effective a pokemon without baton pass being a playstyle. mega heracross is still the same devastating wallbreaker that smacks the common ground + steel + grass defensive backbones while also having the bulk to trade in most offensive matchups which makes it a relatively safe pick for most bulky offense type teams. perhaps it could drop soon but i don't see why the situation for it is really much different than it was beforehand.

reuniclus b to b+
keeping this nomination on the back burner for a few weeks until we're a bit deeper into stour and wcop has started is the way to go in my opinion, there just isn't a large enough sample size of reuni's effectiveness to have it keep rising. there seems to be a ton of theorymonning and strong opinions surrounding this pokemon, but despite all of that as far as i am aware it is somewhat rarely used. i think pdc was the only user to use reuniclus in any recent tour game that i have seen, he lost, and reuniclus had little impact on the game. i'm perfectly fine for this mon to rise in due time but i just don't think there's enough evidence for why it need to rise right now, we have a bunch of big tours coming up soon so there's no harm in waiting to see how it fares before going through with this.

mimikyu b to b+
getting behind a rise on mimikyu means you want to put it in the same tier as bisharp and hoopa-u. that just doesn't sound right to me, in my opinion it is a clear cut below those mons, bisharp especially, and is fine sitting in b. just because its usage may be higher than its rank would suggest that doesn't mean it needs to rise. mimikyu fits on a decent number of teams thanks to the fact that it doesn't require a ton of specific support, pair it with a bunch of other physical mons or things that can wear down phys walls and then just hope u can overload whatever you're facing. no matter which way you look at it mimikyu is painfully weak, z-move does absolutely pitiful damage outside of the one turn where it clicks never ending nightmare, and even its z-move is rarely strong enough to ko the bulky pivots which it is trying to nuke without considerable previous damage. none of the recent trends seem to really do anything to strengthen mimikyu's case. lastly, i don't know why people keep talking about it being this great spinblocker, spinners literally don't exist in this tier and if they do it's probably excadrill, probably the hardest thing for mimikyu to spinblock due to mold breaker ignoring its disguise. i don't really think this thing deserves a rise but everyone seems to adore it so i'm not sure how much i can do.

weavile b to b+
after seeing the recent leftiez' sample team utilising weavile, i was somewhat reminded of just how potent a threat weavile is in the current metagame. pursuit trapping, while not as valuable as it may have been in oras, has been getting better and better lately with gengar remaining popular, and the lack of viable defoggers meaning that a lot of users turn to the likes of latios if they desire hazard removal. knock off is also more potent than i thought it would be, with many teams forced to use the likes of assault vest magearna, choice scarf keldeo, and tapu fini as their knock off switchins, all of which dread the removal of their item as it makes them considerably less effective at performing their role. ice stab, as it always has been, is as devastating as ever and ensures that weavile isn't one of those physical attackers stopped dead by token physically defensive pivots like landorus-t and zapdos, meaning it's not as blanket checkable as a lot of other stuff. weavile's good man.

nominations​

mega pinsir a- to a
right now mega pinsir would be my pick for best mega, and even if i'm being biased i don't think you could argue objectively that it's not in the top 3. mega pinsir is as potent as ever on the always popular sticky webs ho builds, but also just a generally fantastic breaker on bulky offense builds since the only real flying resists in the tier are zapdos and rotom-w; one is weak to rocks, and the other lacks recovery. mega metagross' effect leaving the tier has been generally positive for mega pinsir because firstly that's another offensive check to mega pinsir gone, and secondly with magearna being the new token steel-type that only makes mega pinsir's life easier. right now mega pinsir is sitting in the same rank as similar pokemon such as mega medicham and mega heracross. to me it's easily better than breakers like that and seems much more at home next to the likes of tapu bulu and mega mawile in a-rank.

marowak-alola b+ to b
yes, i know it just dropped from a- to b+ but i still think that marowak-a is overrated sitting in b+. this pokemon is slow, rockweak, has weaknesses to some of the most common offensive typings (dark, water, ground etc.) and provides little to no utility outside of specific styles. it's not even the best physically based trick room pokemon now that mega mawile is in the tier, it's not that great of a stallbreaker even in the best matchups its getting maybe 2 kills if played flawlessly. if it's rock head its gonna be dedicated to do something facing stall and have little utility outside of that thanks to its susceptibility to hazards combined with the inability to immediately break common pivots like landorus-t and tyranitar, while also lacking an electric immunity. if it's lightning rod then it can't even break stall since it can't use flare blitz without dying and it's too slow and easily chippable to have a heavy impact on bulky offense vs bulky offense matchups. please keep dropping this.

 

[Riddikulusness]

Glad the discussion points are back. Here are my thoughts on some of them + a mon that some people have nommed to move. (PS, sorry if there are any typos, making a post like this without any typos is hard on mobile.)

A ---> A-: Disagree
Keldeo really appreciates the rise of dark types like Weavile and Tyranitar. Its scarf set is still a great revenge killer vs. stuff like Greninja, Dugtrio, and the aforementioned Weavile. While it cannot switch directly into Gren as safely anymore thanks to them running Extrasensory more often, it still revenge kills both gren forms just as well. And yes, while Charti Volcarona means it cannot revenge kill as effectively as it once did, it still revenge kills all non-Charti variants (granted it hits edge). Specs is a really underlooked set imo, since as stated before it can 2hko the likes of Tangrowth and Celesteela with Secret Sword. The rise of Psychics doesn't help it out, but most of the time thats not stopping it from spamming its water moves. The drop in Tapu Fini usage is also a big bonus for this mon, since that is one check it has to worry about less. I think its fine where its at now, but things could definitely change for it later on.

B ---> B+: Agree
I was actually going to make a nom for this mon to rise before this. Reuniclus is a very overlooked mon in the meta rn. Its immense bulk allow it to check the likes of Medicham, Scarf Garchomp, and non-Dark Pulse Protean Gren (you only need 40 spdef to take 2 LO Ice Beams). Its CM + Recover set is an extremely good wincon thanks to its previously stated bulk, access to reliable recovery, and Magic Guard, which makes it very hard to whittle down. Magic Guard also allows you to dodge spikes, which are very good and common in the meta. The rise in dark types doesn't help it obviously, but I believe that Reuniclus' ability to check a lot of scary metagame threats and its ability to be a very solid wincon gives it merit to rise to B+.

A ---> A-: Agree
Gengar really doesn't appreciate the rise of both dark types and fat steel types. Gengar actually has to be careful of mindlessly spamming Ghost STAB moves because it could easily invite in a dark type that can pursuit trap it. A lot of common pokemon like AV Magearna, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, and Celesteela are able to sponge hits from it and fire back hard (or in ferro's case, spike/seed up vs it). Other faster pokemon like Greninja can force it out easily and potentially put the Gengar user it a bad situation. I think its fine to drop it.

B ---> B+: Agree
Weavile really appreciates the popularity of Psychics and offensive Grounds. Pursuit is still a valuable tool in this metagame, especially since Weavile forces a ton of switches naturally. Banded weavlie is hard to switch into, and it gets plenty of opportunity to fire off its STABS vs. the likes of Zygarde, Lando, Lele, and Garchomp. Weavile deserves a rise, and I hope to see it more in tour play in the future.

B ---> B+: Disagree
I dont think Mimikyu is as good as people are hyping it up to be. Its still a very weak mon that is taken on by good amount of bulkier pokemon in the meta, like Defensive Lando, Toxapex, Celesteela, Magearna, etc. Z move sets are extremely weak besides your 1-time-use z move, and even its not too strong. Mimikyu is fine in B for now.

A- ---> B+: Undecided
I honestly haven't used Heracross much since its release. It looks like a solid breaker that can take on common mons like Tangrowth and Ferrothorn. It obviously tore apart BP teams, but just because BP is gone doesn't mean it should drop immediately. It also enjoys the rise in Dark types as it can get free hits off vs. those mons. As mentioned before it doesn't like the rise of Mega Pinsir or SSSS Lando making a return. Honestly not sure where to put this. We'll just have to see from here.

A- ---> A: Agree
I know it isn't in the discussion points but I saw a few people nom it for a rise and I want to share my thoughts. I totally agree with a Pinsir rise. With metagross leaving this mon has a much easier time doing what it does. The most common steel types now are Celesteela, Ferrothorn, and Magearna, which are all easier to deal with for Pinsir. With how common bulky grasses are only helps this mon more. It is just such a solid breaker/sweeper. Its access to priority also helps it revenge kill faster and frailer mons like +1 Volcarona, Greninja, and Keldeo. Right now, I would put either Mawile or Pinsir as the best megas, so it makes sense for Pinsir to rise to mawile's rank.

 

[Aurious]

A ---> A-
I agree. Specs Gengar is still a very terrifying breaker to face for many balance teams due to the lack of actual ghost resistences, but it has a lot of trouble really coming into anything at the moment (basically needs to be paired with Voltturn). The rise of AV Magearna since the Meta ban is another thing. It also doesn't have any kind of defensive viability since Pheromosa was banned (other than maybe assuring that Medicham can't spam HJK all the time). Still a really good mon if played well as we can see here, though: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-288810

A ---> A-
I agree. Really the only viable set seems to be scarf atm and even that has trouble removing the stuff it's meant to check / switch into (Charti Volca and Extrasensory Specs Ninja for example). The recent rise of Scarf Latios in usage doesn't help it either. Not really much to say here.

B ---> B+
I disagree. Reuniclus troubles some balance builds for sure, but I think that's more like the builds lacking any kind of powerful breaking mon than Reuni being actually good. In my opinion it's often just a massive bait for mons like CB Tar, Specs Greninja or M-Mawile to come in and get a kill. And even if a team lacks any of these there are still plenty of mons on balance teams like M-Scizor, SD Lando, M-Heracross, SD Bulu, Marowak-Alola or even Trick Scarf Lati that hinder it from effectively sweeping. Against other styles it's only deadweight anyway. It's defensive viability is also not that high. Yes, it's one of the rare mons that switches into Medi which is nice, but on the other side Medi doesn't really seem that common now (although it's a dangerous threat to balance for sure). Other than that it's defensive viability really isn't that high, it's ok for Zygarde but it has to recover all the time allowing the dangerous Pokemon already named to switch in for free and it also gets 2HKOed by Outrage... I think B is fine for it atm.

 

[Shurtugal]

Mimikyu to B+: A Mimikyu rise seems a bit odd when one of its greatest niches -- solid check to Pheromosa -- is now non-existent. Not the say the Pokemon isn't a capable Pokemon; Disguise ability gives it a rather unique anti-metagame function, but I wouldn't say it is a splashable Pokemon to put on a team. To rank Mimikyu over Charizard-X seems mighty awkward to me, but personal japes aside, I don't think you can compare Mimikyu to the other Pokemon sitting in B+. The other B+ Pokemon in Tapu Fini, Jirachi, Rotom-W, etc. have a more splashable component to them; Mimikyu cannot just be put on any team. It is a hard Pokemon to support because of its lackluster strength and speed, which means it requires a great deal of specific team support in order to function well. I believe this rise only comes from the hype of NJNP's Stick Web team which features Mimikyu, but that is only one team, and I do not feel Mimikyu is as splashable as its other B+ counterparts.

Heracross to B+: I'm not sure why it got ranked down. I mean, we have Mew in Rank A- but not Mega Heracross? Does that sound right to anyone else? Heracross doesn't belong with other B+ mons (I surely wouldn't put it at the same power level as Mimikyu). It's a very hard Pokemon to switch into and its very bulky and it is more capable of pressuring stall than it's Fighting type mega counterpart in Medicham (well, Koko + Cham can pressure stall, but that doesn't come close to what SD Heracross can do against stall). My guess is that Heracross sets might not have been fully explored -- SubSD is such a behemoth of a Pokemon, and with its solid defensive stats it can often set up on things like Ferrothorn or Toxapex and proceed to punish the opposing team. Heracross can be invested in either max speed or bulk and do equally well. Now, it isn't an easy Pokemon to put on a team with its lackluster speed stat crippling it somewhat, but it is certainly just as good as other things in A- (Mew, Tyranitar, Amoonguss, Magnezone, Latios -- all things Heracross is at an equal or better power level than imo).

Keldeo to A-: I agree with this. I actually didn't really agree with its rise to begin with; the new metagame certainly isn't kind to Keldeo. So many threats can jump the base 108 speed tier and a multitude of new Pokemon such as Tapu Fini and the slowly-prominent Tapu Bulu are fairly decent checks to Keldeo. Meanwhile, existing threats such as Medicham, bulky Heracross, Pinsir, etc. are all giving Keldeo headaches. It doesn't even really stop things like Volcarona that it's supposed to stop, not without adding Stone Edge anyway (lol, Keldeo dropping Scald/Hydro Pump/HP/Icy Wind to hit one Pokemon), and even then it can still lose to charti berry or a Volcarona at +2 (switching into a Giga Drain is always a calculated risk, but so is Quiver Dance, so it's really a 50-50 that doesn't end in your favor because Stone Edge or Hydro Pump can miss). I'd also say that Keldeo receives some steep competition from the likes of Scarf Greninja, which is faster, has better coverage, and can better reliably perform its job because it has 2 other Greninja sets it can bluff, making people drop their guard with Volcarona etc. that Keldeo simply cannot do. I wouldn't be surprised if this thing dropped further, using its Z Set is usually a waste (slow & cannot even OHKO Tapu Fini / Toxapex iirc) and its choiced sets aren't doing much better this metagame.

Weavile to B+: Once again I don't know why this has hype. Weavile is probably fine in B+, but I really don't think it deserves much attention: it's frail, SR weak (and grounded, so hellooo spikes), weak to common coverage attacks in OU (bug, fighting, fairy, fire, rock... yeah, Weavile isn't switching into any attacks ever) and its speed tier isn't nearly as relevant as it was in ORAS or any other tier before SM. SM is just not kind to Weavile: more fairy types, a steel fairy in Magearna, Mawile is OU again, Tapu Fini eats this for breakfast (lol those Poison Jab tickle, unless you're willing to waste a Z slot on a shit mon), etc. etc. etc. So long as Landorus-Therian is OU, Weavile will always have a niche, but it's nothing more than that: it's not an easily splashable mon nor incredibly amazing at what it does either. I'd say the speed tier and power level creep in SM have left Weavile in the dust; so many good Pokemon you find on every team (Mawile, Scizor, Magearna, Ferrothorn, Volcarona, Celesteela, influx of things like TR Offense and Webs Offense, faster Pokemon in Tapu Koko, Greninja, Ash Greninja, etc. etc. etc.) are direct counters or solid checks to this Pokemon. Even things it should beat like Zygarde or Pinsr can retaliate with some strong priority of their own (Pinsir is bulky enough to tank Shard and Espeed hits before Shard). Weavile can't even reliably beat Landorus-Therian as Lando scarf can just U-Turn out (and iirc it lives -1 Ice Shard), and then there is the fact that you could run Yache Berry Landorus (which isn't awful at all, as it makes Landorus-Therian a more reliable switch-in to Tapu Koko).

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Honestly, disregard the Mimikyu nom I put on the previous page. I'll still stand by my belief that Mimikyu is one of the best mons in B, but B+ is stacked rn holy

 

[Sueshidragon]

Clefable A- ---> B-

How is this thing A-? It is in no way up to snuff with Mega Medicham, Mega Sableye, etc. Honestly, I just think this thing is misranked to begin with. Z-Moves blow this thing away, and it can't even really do much back to anything. I really don't know what else to say other than this shouldn't have been A- to begin with. It honestly is about on par with Gliscor, so B- works well.

There's just no way Clefable should be dropping three whole ranks, bud. Maybe to B+, but by your logic, Z-Moves blow pretty much all defensive Mons back. From what you're saying, if a defensive Mon can get blown back by Z-Moves, they should be dropping. Rotom-W and Fini in B- doesn't sound right to me. Skarmory and Chansey in B doesn't sound good either. All four lose to some Z-Move in the tier, but that doesn't make them any less good on their own. Clefable holds some amazing defensive utility thanks to Fairy typing and Unaware, allowing it to check the dangerous setup sweepers that threaten stall with phazers like Skarmory gone. The amazing utility Clefable has on a stall team shouldn't be denied, saying it should drop. And, if a drop is warranted, you really shouldn't make the atrocious claim that it's by three goddamn subranks. Seriously, I don't know if a single Pokemon as unwarranted as Clefable has ever dropped THREE subranks like that.

 

[robopoke]

Disscussion Points:

A ---> A-: Disagree
Specs Gengar is still very hard to switch into. While the rising usage of TTar can be annoying, do not forget that bulky Psychics are more common than ever. Specs Gengar is also a bitch to deal with if you use Trick Room. Access to trick can easily cripple Chansey if played correctly. This is also one of the most reliable ways to weaken AV Magearna, Spdef Celesteela for your lategamesweeper and can also use Icy Wind to kill those annoying Landos and Zygardes. Being a Ghost type helps against Extreme Speed and its defensive typing is nice to switch into Mega Venu, Amoonguss, Chansey, Clef etc.. Helps alot against fat teams and even against offensive ones, if you can VoltTurn or double well.

A ---> A-: Undecided
It is nice to have a Scarfer that can actually take hits and has solid defensive utility. It is just that the incredible usage of AV Tang is super annoying. I am undecided because Specs Keldeo can be interesting with people using Mew as their Defoggers and Tapu Fini not being used as much (from ladderexperience). It can still switch into stuff and also fake being scarf if it has to.

A - ---> B+: Disagree
Mega Heracross was THE Mega on Baton Pass teams and also incredible against Baton Pass it self. Since Baton Pass is gone, Mega Heracross did indeed lost some viability but do not forget that this mon is like the best mon to switch into Tangrowth. Out of all the offensive Megas without access to any recovery moves, Mega Heracross is one of the only two with defensive utility (the other being Mawile). Still hits super hard and some trends are helping (Banded Knock Off switch in, Bulky Psychics, Buluusage).

B ---> B+: Disagree
I used Reuniclus alot to counter Mega Medicham. This mon does the job prob the best because of Magic Guard but it is incredibly passive (similiar to Gastrodon). You are always forced to recover whenever you take a hit and you lose so much momentum. The CM set also struggles against Darktypes, which are now paired with Mega Medi unless you Focus Blast on the switch but then you cannot take 2 HJKs later. In theory, I could probably 6-0 the opposing team just by clicking CM after getting rid of their mons with supereffective moves. In practice you will get Knocked Off, paralyzed and will be forced to recover endlessly until you lose to Hax which you cannot even call Hax after all the preparation. That is why Reuniclus is mostly just a switch in and a momentum sink that your opponent can take advantage off.

B ---> B+: Agree
This mon is incredibly dangerous in the right hand and is the face of HO (this is no exaggeration). Even though it has literally no bulk it is still very nice to have something to fall back just in case something happens. HO is simply click the correct moves and 1 Missplay and you can lose. Mimikyu helps compensate that and still not be passive. While it is weak, the fact that is super easy to SD even twice makes this thing dangerous. Access to Taunt or Sub can help against fatter teams but usually you want Shadow Sneak against the offensive matchups. Being forced to play around the Z-Move can help if you utilize Sub or just SD again.

B---> B+: Agree
Mew, Lati, decreasing MZor usage.. all of that is amazing for Weavile. This is also one of the best partners to Mega Medicham and it can revengekill Protean Greninja after it has changed its type easily. Also helps against the rising usage of AV Tornt to stop Specs Gengar. All in all this mon is definitetly worth using as a trapper and can force Keldeo to lose its Scarf.

 

[Muscle K]

A ---> A-: Disagree
The rise of dark types such as Gren, Tyranitar and Weavile, while also appreciating the rise of steels such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Heatran. The Scarf set is a fantastic revenge killer, being able to revenge kill Tapu Koko, Dugtrio, as well as the previously mentioned Weavile and Greninja. Keldeo's specs set is also incredibly powerful, being able to 2HKO all variants of Tangrowth, Magearna and Celesteela with Secret Sword - but the rise of Psychic Types does hinder it's wallbreaking / sweeping capabilities. However, Keldeo also has the privilege of high powered water STAB, which allows to break through said Psychic Types.
The lack of Fini usage also helps Keldeo as it removes a check from the match altogether.

Keldeo does have some troubles switching directly into both Greninja forms, as they both carry Extrasensory (specifically Protean, as Battle Bond rarely carries it) it still is able to reliably revenge kill both forms with ease. Volcarona is another problem for Keldeo, as it forces most scarf sets to run Stone Edge, while also commonly running Psychic.

Ultimately, I think the A Rank is a suitable rank for Keldeo to be in.


There's a lot more to post, i'll update this post later.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I told myself I'd stay away from this thread, but one post won't hurt. . .

Anyways, a lot of the statements on Mimikyu not moving up are pretty. . . off. People are saying "oh x, y, and z can take a hit", uh, yea. . . There's a reason I only put the cleaner set in the analysis. It is meant to be a cleaner, so when the situation is just right, it does its job, and does it well. Like on the previous page, someone said Lele wins if its disguise is down, well, yea, which is why you preserve it in that situation. Now, I'm not new to VR threads, so I know this is just to give a basic idea of what's good, but I believe when ranking a mon, we need to give the benefit of the doubt to the user, and assume they aren't completely braindead and going to throw their Mimikyu in to lose its disguise when there's a scarf Lele on the opposite side of the field. I'm not exactly for a rise personally, because as False stated above, it would imply that it's at least close to Hoopa, Rachi, and Bisharp in terms of viability, which I don't feel it is. Which is why I'd also be against a Reuniclus rise. In terms of how it does it's job, I don't feel it is on par with the other mons in B+, which would naturally result in it being a tier below, which I agree with. Hoopa comes in and gets a kill, Bisharp does much of the same more so if it sets up or comes in on a stray defog, Rachi runs a million+ sets and is just overall annoying, not just because of its ability, but also moves that it can carry keeping it alive, spreading status, setting rocks, etc. I don't see Mimikyu on the same page as those. I do however see it in the same boat as Kingdra, Reuniclus, and Manaphy who require some team support and mon removal before they can do their job to the fullest extent.

I'm just saying, stating "x, y, and z mons" can take a hit, doesn't really prove anything. It requiring quite a bit more support than Hoopa, Bisharp, Fini and Torn is reason enough for it to stay in B. For me. I'd like to say it's bias, or something since it's my Favorite mon in the game, but I can acknowledge when a mon isn't quite as amazing as I wish it were.

It's far from bad, FAR from bad, but it requires too much to happen for it to do its job as effectively as possible, as opposed to the Pokemon in B+.

 

[N_Mareanie]

I'm nominating Goodra from Unranked --> C-/C

Goodra is able to check [sometimes even counter] some of the current 'mons that tear teams apart in the current metagame. It's able to counter Volcarona, and check a lot of 'mons [Charizard-Mega-Y, Greninja-Ash, Celesteela, Tapu Koko/Bulu/Fini, Psyshock-less Tapu Lele and sometimes even Def. Lando]

Volcarona calcs:
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 126-150 (33 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 184-217 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Goodra Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 276-328 (88.7 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

As you can see, Volcarona needs +2 to even 2HKO w/ Shattered Psyche after Rocks, which just shows how bulky Goodra is. Goodra is also able to counter back with a 4x SE Rock Slide, which even has a chance to OHKO w/ Modest.

[Ash-]Greninja calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 103-123 (27 - 32.2%) -- 68.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 158-186 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 151-182 (39.6 - 47.7%) -- 50.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 218-257 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash: 274-324 (96.1 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 274-324 (96.1 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, it's a [really] shaky check to Protean Greninja, as it does get 2HKO'd by Gunk Shot, but Goodra is still able to take it and OHKO w/ Draco after rocks.
Goodra is also able to switch into Dark Pulse from Ash-Greninja anyday, and is sometimes not even 2HKO'd by Ice Beam.

The Tapu's [Koko/Lele/Fini/Bulu]:
Tapu Koko:
252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra in Electric Terrain: 51-60 (13.3 - 15.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 50-60 (13.1 - 15.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 102-120 (26.7 - 31.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 244-288 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Tapu Lele [without Psyshock]:
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 146-174 (38.3 - 45.6%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra in Psychic Terrain: 103-123 (27 - 32.2%) -- 68.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 170-202 (60.4 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Tapu Fini:
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 92-110 (24.1 - 28.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 138-164 (40.2 - 47.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Tapu Bulu:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Superpower vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 289-340 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 404-476 (143.2 - 168.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

[because of the ability Sap Sipper, Goodra is able to switch in on the Wood Hammer and Horn Leech from Bulu]

As you can see, Goodra is able to check almost of the Tapu's [except for Lele w/ Psyshock or Specs/LO Lele]. This can really help if your team struggles against the likes of Koko.


Other calcs [defensive]:
Charizard-Mega-Y:
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra in Sun: 74-87 (19.4 - 22.8%) -- 7.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 72-85 (18.8 - 22.3%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
Heatran:
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 46-55 (12 - 14.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 62-74 (16.2 - 19.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
Landorus-T:
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 261-307 (68.5 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Keldeo:
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 186-219 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 56-68 (14.6 - 17.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
Gengar:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 95-113 (24.9 - 29.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Nihilego:
252 SpA Choice Specs Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 108-127 (28.3 - 33.3%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 90-108 (23.6 - 28.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
Xurkitree:
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 192-226 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 106-126 (27.8 - 33%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Zygarde [SubCoil]:
0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 130-154 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Magearna [First calc = Shift Gear, second calc = AV]:
252 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 61-73 (16 - 19.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 218-260 (57.2 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Celesteela [Autotomize]:
252+ SpA Celesteela Flash Cannon vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 58-70 (15.2 - 18.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock

It is also able to take on Tangrowth, both AV and Defensive, because it's immune to Sleep Powder/Giga Drain, is able to take HP Ice for days etc.
It can also switch into Celesteela's Leech Seed and actually do some damage back [unlike M-Venusaur/Ferro/Amoonguss]

Other calcs [offensive]:
Charizard-Mega-Y:
0- Atk Goodra Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 240-284 (80.8 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Heatran:
0- Atk Goodra Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 248-292 (76.7 - 90.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Landorus-T:
252+ SpA Goodra Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 464-548 (145.4 - 171.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Keldeo:
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 226-267 (69.9 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Gengar:
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 262-310 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Nihilego:
0- Atk Goodra Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nihilego: 464-548 (129.2 - 152.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Xurkitree:
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 274-324 (89.2 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Zygarde:
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 320-378 (76.7 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Goodra Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 296-352 (70.9 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Magearna [First calc = Shift Gear, second calc = AV]
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 138-164 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Tangrowth:
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 170-200 (42 - 49.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Celesteela [First calc = Sp. Def, second calc = Autotomize]
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 168-198 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 232-274 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Ferrothorn:
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 360-424 (102.2 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As you're able to see, it is able to take some big hits from certain 'mons and most of the time able to do some good damage in return. Goodra also has a pretty good movepool; moves like Draco, DPulse, Tbolt & Ice Beam, EQ, Rock Slide, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Muddy Water, Power Whip, Sludge Bomb are able to hit a large number of the 'mons in the current metagame.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-583696871 I might have lost this match, but it still shows how Goodra can easily switch into special attackers.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-583700303 As you're able to see, Goodra prevents Volcarona from setting up, and w/ its coverage, it's actually able to put on some pressure.

This was my first nomination, thanks for reading! [:

 

[Sir J0ey]

I would argue that there are better options that have similar immediate power to what Mimikyu can dish out once it has set up, and so can be used to apply pressure/revenge kill throughout a match.

If you would argue that there are better options, what exactly are you waiting for? No one is stopping you from arguing that. Just saying "I think this is true" neither convinces anyone nor proves you right on any level.

Mimikyu to B+: A Mimikyu rise seems a bit odd when one of its greatest niches -- solid check to Pheromosa -- is now non-existent.

First of all, Phero's been banned for a while now. Mimikyu no longer having the niche of checking Phero is nearly entirely irrelevant to whether or not it should rise, because its current rank already reflects a meta without Phero. Second of all, Mega Medicham is seeing a lot of use, who, unless I'm misunderstanding why Mimikyu checked Phero, Mimikyu can do the exact same thing to.

no matter which way you look at it mimikyu is painfully weak, z-move does absolutely pitiful damage outside of the one turn where it clicks never ending nightmare, and even its z-move is rarely strong enough to ko the bulky pivots which it is trying to nuke without considerable previous damage.

Mimikyu's role is that of a lategame cleaner. Given how difficult hazard control is in this meta, combined with its ability to spinblock, name one situation in which a bulky pivot wouldn't take considerable previous damage.

lastly, i don't know why people keep talking about it being this great spinblocker,

Maybe because it's extremely often used on a team archetype which needs to be able to keep hazards down?

spinners literally don't exist in this tier and if they do it's probably excadrill,

And it would be Excadrill why? Starmie is a significantly better spinner in this meta, and is used more frequently.

i don't really think this thing deserves a rise but everyone seems to adore it so i'm not sure how much i can do.

Ending an argument with in ad hom is one of the stupidest things you can do while still having a good argument. It alienates basically everyone but those who already agree with you, and makes the entire side for which you are arguing look like assholes to the opposition due to outgrouping bias. Don't.

Note that I don't actually think Mimikyu should rise; the actually good arguments against it have convinced me of such. That doesn't mean I'm not going to pick apart the bad ones, though.

 

[TheCtes]

Mimikyu doesn't check Mega Medicham as well as it did with Pheromosa. Phermosa's stab attacks did 1/4x damage for the better one, while Mega Medicham deals neutral damage with psychic to it. Of course Phermosa often haf Ice Beam, but that's besides the point.