R/S/E In-Game Tier List Discussion

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Just as an FYI... Tentacool is available much earlier than the moment you start Surfing... you can acutally catch them via an Old Rod in Dewford City, which is right before the second gym.

I got a lot of Pokemon I have used and I'll update this post later on about almost all of them
 
NoUserName said:
Except in E4, Dark, Ghosts and Steels are fairly rare, except Poochyenas/Mightyenas from Team Aqua/Magma and against Wattson's Magnemites/ton.

In Sapphire/Emerald, Team Aqua sometimes uses Carvanha or its evolution, but they are smashed by Shock Wave.
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Well, I definitely think E4 members and Gym Leader match ups should be held in higher self-esteem than Team Aqua battles.
 
Hemp Man said:
Well, I definitely think E4 members and Gym Leader match ups should be held in higher self-esteem than Team Aqua battles.
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I disagree since Team Aqua/Magma battles are common and they use the same 3-4 mons.

For instance, Bulbasaur in RBY/FRLF loses usefulness mostly because it has a bad matchup against Poison Pokemon of Rockets'.

I quote myself about Feebas in bottom:

NoUserName said:
Should be Bottom Tier, the probability of finding it fishing randomly without using cheats is almost 0. Not worth of it using 3 hours, to say something, to find a mon.

Envolving really is "easy" if knowing how to do it simply picking decent berries.
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Also growing berries in order to envolve it isn't a good method to finish quickly the game(That hardly matters since Feebas is almost impossible to find)

I have never tried Chinchou, but being Top being accessible after getting the 7th badge, mediocre stats bar HP(not strong neither fast), only useful against Wallace/Juan(and maaaaybe against Glacia and Drake(wasting 4000 coins TM or do the Abandoned Ship side quest...) (Kyogre smashes all of them)...

This sounds that Chinchou should be Mid at best.
 
By that logic, everything in Sapphire is moved to Mid due to us being forced to solo the game with Kyogre from that point onwards apparently. Don't forget the games where Kyogre doesn't exist, too.

I'd say access to Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam (the latter two can be obtained pretty easily without the substantial monetary investment in these games) is just good enough for the portion of the game where Lanturn is available. Lanturn may not have the best offensive stats, but it's got the typing that walls the water-type specialists, Glacia and certain pokes like Skarmory pretty well, while striking back with SE STABs. Starmie has nearly the same availability as Chinchou, gets Psychic (which isn't worth much at that point), more speed but lacks the bulk and the STAB on Thunderbolt.
 
There's also the problem of Lanturn being terribly underleveled for that point in the game. That's a problem for all of the sea denizens, though (barring Magikarp, Wingull and Tentacool, since you get them pretty early on). Chinchou's probably the best of the sea creatures, though. It's offensive and defensive stats are juuuust good enough to keep it alive.

I highly disagree with it being Top, however. Its stats are just good enough, nothing too spectacular, and you get it after Gym 7, which really wrecks its usefulness when you would have really wanted it. Also, remember that being resistant to Glacia's not exactly a big thing since she has that Sheer Cold Walrein that can wreck your day.

I'd prefer Starmie, because at least I'd have something fast to take out Flygon and not get OHKO'd by it. That's a pretty big issue that makes Starmie a much better Ice Beam user than Tentacruel (who was the one I used in my latest RSE adventure) or Lanturn; it outspeeds and OHKOs without risk of OHKO back, also walls Water types easily, also wrecks Skarm, has a field day against Drake (who walks all over Lanturn, truth be told), and also contributes a lot to the fight against Steven (Starmie outspeeds and OHKOs the silly Special Attacking Aggron, scores strong neutral hits against Metagross while outspeeding it, something that Lanturn doesn't do, and scores SE hits on the rest of his team, while Lanturn risks being outsped by Aggron (iirc) and Armaldo, and is outsped and OHKO'd by Metagross).

Sadly, I'd much prefer using Staryu over Chinchou.
 
If you want to compare Lanturn and Starmie, then it doesn't hurt to remember that Chinchou actually comes 5 levels above Staryu. However, Starmie does have the opportunity to train against Liza and Tate, where Lanturn also wishes it could have present to be useful.

Walrein does threaten with an (unlikely) OHKO, but that applies to everybody who doesn't OHKO him and everybody who OHKOs but doesn't outspeed (which is a lot of mons; even Blaziken sometimes). Starmie is also at risk of OHKO since its Thunderbolt is weaker than Lanturn's. Likewise, Lanturn should be outspeeding Aggron with speed EVs compensating for the slight difference in levels.

You're right about Metagross indeed (Starmie's typing is great for this), but that's only a problem in RS. In Emerald, you have another water-type guy and the one with the STAB hits the hardest there.

Also don't forget about the first two E4 members, against whom you may not have any super-effective moves (more likely Phoebe since there's a high likelihood of you having a fighting-type). Starmie doesn't watch any Crunches or Shadow Punches being thrown its way so you don't use it here at all. Lanturn can fill in and take something one-on-one with ease however.

So I wouldn't be so fast to proclaim Staryu's superiority.

Both should be in High tier IMO, due to their late availability.
 
Don't be so quick to think that Lanturn's STAB T-Bolt is stronger than Starmie's. Lanturn has 76 Base SpAtk while Starmie has Base 100. That's a pretty large difference, and if Lanturn does end up having the stronger T-bolt, it'll only be a minute difference. Starmie also happens to be able to solo Drake, while Lanturn can't kill Flygon because it's outsped and OHKO'd itself by EQ. Getting STAB on T-Bolt is fine, but I don't see how it's gonna be stronger simply because of STAB.

I still would say Mid for Lanturn, because its late availablilty and lackluster stats kinda hinder it, even if it does get STAB T-Bolt (you don't have an Electric type already?)
 
Lv50 Lanturn's Thunderbolt (15 IV, Neutral, 128 EV) vs. Lv53 Walrein (25 IV, Neutral, 0 EV): 102 - 160 (52%-61.2%)
Lv50 Starmie's Thunderbolt (same conditions) vs. same Walrein: 82 - 98 (41.8 - 50%)

Glacia's Walrein may not necessarily have 25 IVs in Special Defense, but Lanturn has a better chance of 2HKO on Walrein than Starmie. Starmie is having roughly 70% of Lanturn's firepower with Tbolt. This is definitely not a minute difference. Granted, I'm not really sure how high-levelled would a typical party be at E4 (the only thing i can ever remember is smashing them with an overlevelled blaziken) but if anything this is probably it.

Honestly both are interchangeable imo.

and uh if you'd
Lv53 Flygon's Earthquake (25 IV, neutral, 0 EV) on Lv52 Lanturn (15 IV, neutral, 128 EV): 152 - 180 (73.1% - 86.5%) Lanturn is really only OHKO'd if he has like, no defense EVs (which isn't likely seeing as you probably use him to murder geodudes in victory road or something)
 
TM13IceBeam said:
Lv50 Lanturn's Thunderbolt (15 IV, Neutral, 128 EV) vs. Lv53 Walrein (25 IV, Neutral, 0 EV): 102 - 160 (52%-61.2%)
Lv50 Starmie's Thunderbolt (same conditions) vs. same Walrein: 82 - 98 (41.8 - 50%)

Glacia's Walrein may not necessarily have 25 IVs in Special Defense, but Lanturn has a better chance of 2HKO on Walrein than Starmie. Starmie is having roughly 70% of Lanturn's firepower with Tbolt. This is definitely not a minute difference. Granted, I'm not really sure how high-levelled would a typical party be at E4 (the only thing i can ever remember is smashing them with an overlevelled blaziken) but if anything this is probably it.

Honestly both are interchangeable imo.

and uh if you'd
Lv53 Flygon's Earthquake (25 IV, neutral, 0 EV) on Lv52 Lanturn (15 IV, neutral, 128 EV): 152 - 180 (73.1% - 86.5%) Lanturn is really only OHKO'd if he has like, no defense EVs (which isn't likely seeing as you probably use him to murder geodudes in victory road or something)
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Remember that Lanturn has to get to Flygon with its...meh speed, which means that 2HKO will probably turn into an OHKO. Still, I severely underestimated STAB.
 
Ice Beam by Lanturn is almost an OHKO on Flygon. Blizzard is a definite OHKO, as is NeverMeltIce-boosted Ice Beam. Not sure how you're going to go with that...

L52 Lanturn IB (15, neutral, 128) vs. L53 Flygon (25, neutral, 0) = 95% - 112.5%
 
The main problem I had with Starmie is that its part Psychic, making it vulnerable to the first two Elite 4 members. Even Drake's Pokemon pack Dark moves, so at least make sure you are high enough of a level to outspeed his team before you sweep.

But other than that, Ice moves easily sweep Drake. Hell, I just got done watching a video of someone sweeping all but his Salamence with a fricken Gyarados, who only has 60 Base SpA.
 
I noticed some problems on the locations guide. (because I haven't played RS, some of these errors may only be errors in Emerald) When you say "can be fished", you should also probably specify the kind of rod.
Abra - grass at Route 116
Tentacool - old rod at Dewford Town
Wailmer - It's easier to get to Slateport City than Dewford Town right after getting the good rod, so the OP should probably say Slateport City.
Numel - grass at Route 112
Luvdisc - good or super rod at Route 128
 
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I noticed that you have been discussing for more than 4 pages and haven't made much visible progress. Instead of discussing every single evolution family, I think it would be better to put up preliminary tiers and only discuss when a Pokemon should change tiers. I've also been seeing some of, "It has good stats, so it should be high tier." "Although its stats are pretty good, I think they're only good enough for middle tier." I think preliminary tiers can help fix this, because the Pokemon already in a tier can be used as measuring sticks for tiering other Pokemon. For example, people might start saying stuff like, "It has better stats than most high tier Pokemon, and an okay movepool, so it should definitely be high tier." With that in mind, these are my suggestions for preliminary tiers.
Top tier
Abra (yes trade)
Treecko
Ralts
Torchic
Mudkip
Shroomish
Taillow
Kyogre
Groudon
Abra (no trade)
Tentacool
Rayquaza
Electrike

High tier
Lotad
Zigzagoon
Wingull
Whismur
Zubat
Staryu
Geodude (yes trade)
Zangoose
Makuhita
Skarmory
Aron
Machop (yes trade)
Heracross
Nincada (Ninjask)
Marill
Oddish (Vileplume)
Oddish (Bellossom)
Spoink
Horsea (yes trade)
Trapinch
Seedot
Anorith

Middle tier
Slakoth
Magikarp
Regice
Doduo
Vulpix
Spheal
Phanpy
Psyduck
Grimer
Magnemite
Tropius
Voltorb
Nincada (Shedinja)
Swablu
Regirock
Gulpin
Rhyhorn
Geodude (no trade)
Chinchou
Baltoy
Wurmple (Dustox)
Koffing
Baltoy

Low tier
Bagon
Feebas
Minun
Plusle
Solrock
Lunatone
Numel
Meditite
Sandshrew
Natu
Volbeat
Pikachu
Pinsir
Carvanha
Barboach
Roselia
Surskit
Wurmple (Beautifly)
Wailmer
Skitty
Goldeen
Lileep
Snorunt
Shuppet

Bottom tier
Seviper
Torkoal
Wynaut
Sableye
Illumise
Relicanth
Girafarig
Horsea (no trade)
Slugma
Registeel
Machop (no trade)
Absol
Chimecho
Corphish
Castform
Duskull
Clamperl (Gorebyss)
Cacnea
Mawile
Spinda
Kecleon
Jigglypuff
Clamperl (Huntail)
Nosepass
Luvdisc
Corsola
Clamperl (no trade)

Untiered (they're all psychic type. Isn't that an interesting coincidence?)
Beldum
Latias
Latios
Jirachi
Deoxys
The Pokemon were tiered based on their availability, stats (with emphasis on speed and the stronger attack stat), and their tiers on the current Smogon guide. I did consider the availability of good STAB attacks and I did consider the effects of "game changing" abilities like truant and wonder guard. However, I didn't do a good job with typing, level up movepools, coverage, and evolution methods so please point out any problems involving those.
 
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Immediately going to question the placement of Feebas in High. It's an absolute chore to find, it's weak as heck until evolved (those 15/10 offences...), its movepool is terribly shallow, and it requires mastery of the Pokéblock minigame to evolve. Even though Milotic may be really good, it's literally the most difficult Pokémon to acquire in the entire game. That's enough to keep it far out of the High tier, at least.
 
Codraroll said:
Immediately going to question the placement of Feebas in High. It's an absolute chore to find, it's weak as heck until evolved (those 15/10 offences...), its movepool is terribly shallow, and it requires mastery of the Pokéblock minigame to evolve. Even though Milotic may be really good, it's literally the most difficult Pokémon to acquire in the entire game. That's enough to keep it far out of the High tier, at least.
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You're right. I'll leave Feebas in the middle tier until people ask for it to be lowered further.
 
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Feebas should be whatever the second-to-last tier is. Getting it is a pain, evolving it is a pain on top of being a resource sink, and the end result is a decent (but not spectacular) Pokémon that is not worth the time or effort required to obtain for a story run. The only reason Feebas shouldn't be bottom is because you can theorectically get lucky finding it and, like I said, Milotic isn't horrible.
 
Karxrida said:
Feebas should be whatever the second-to-last tier is. Getting it is a pain, evolving it is a pain on top of being a resource sink, and the end result is a decent (but not spectacular) Pokémon that is not worth the time or effort required to obtain for a story run. The only reason Feebas shouldn't be bottom is because you can theorectically get lucky finding it and, like I said, Milotic isn't horrible.
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Okay, I moved it to the low tier.
 
I would say Magikarp should be middle tier rather than high tier. Even though it is available early, it is a pain to train up into Gyarados. Besides, this is also gen 3 we are talking about so Gyarados doesn't even get physical STAB outside of Hidden Power Flying (which isn't guaranteed). Yes, it has a decent physical movepool but lacking something like physical Waterfall should probably make Magikarp middle tier
 
OrangeGuru said:
I would say Magikarp should be middle tier rather than high tier. Even though it is available early, it is a pain to train up into Gyarados. Besides, this is also gen 3 we are talking about so Gyarados doesn't even get physical STAB outside of Hidden Power Flying (which isn't guaranteed). Yes, it has a decent physical movepool but lacking something like physical Waterfall should probably make Magikarp middle tier
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Even if Gyarados used physical attacks without STAB, it would still be stronger than most of the stuff that becomes available at around the same time. However, I do see your point about how Magikarp takes a long time to become useful. I moved it to middle tier.
 
I also would question the viability of Regice in high tier. Now I will say that I have never used it, so that's why I am simply asking about it. It isn't available until super late (basically the last route bc of all the surfing), requires Dive, dig, a Wailord, and a Relicanth, which seems fairly restrictive and troublesome for someone who is just playing through the game as fast as possible (using a team + a few HM slaves if needed). I don't know how much weight is being given to this, but it seems like the Regis as a whole are difficult to know how to acquire without looking it up. Very elaborate and specific way to get into the Sealed Chamber and then you still have to read Braille and walk around counterclockwise in Regice's chamber - a new player would have no idea what to do (idk just an observation)
 
Gyarados might be strong, but it's also relying on Tackle/Rock Smash (non-STAB moves with low BP) and Bite (also a non-STAB move that's stronger, but it works off of Special Attack) until you get the Secret Power TM (acquired between Gyms 3 and 4) for a passable attacking option. You also have to baby Magikarp until 20, which is always annoying. Gyarados's sheer bulk and Intimidate are nice, but they do not make it worthy of High tier.

Regice is probably the only Regi worth getting, and it's way too out of the way with its huge detour and honestly not even that impressive considering it has 1 good matchup. Mid at best, and that's pushing it.

Bagon is not High, it's Bottom. It's the definition of pointless time sink: it comes late, you catch it underleveled, and needs to be babied to Level 50. Just grab a Trapinch after Flannery if you want to use a Dragon.
 
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Also, I don't see Slakoth being high tier. I was disappointed the one time I tried to use it because of how annoying Truant is as an ability. For someone who likes to run through quickly in subsequent playthroughs, Slakoth and Slaking are annoying because unless you can OHKO the target, you have to take more turns than necessary. Sure Vigoroth is pretty strong and fun to use, but the same problems come back upon evolving into Slaking (unless you choose not to evolve, but that makes Vigoroth fairly weak by the end)

TLDR: basically Truant is such an annoying ability that early availability and the strength of Vigoroth are cancelled out; thus Slakoth should move down to at least middle tier
 
Mid might be more appropriate for Slakoth, especially based on some stuff I've seen in the ORAS thread. Different games, I know, but I can't imagine Slakoth being radically different between Gens.
 
OrangeGuru said:
I also would question the viability of Regice in high tier. Now I will say that I have never used it, so that's why I am simply asking about it. It isn't available until super late (basically the last route bc of all the surfing), requires Dive, dig, a Wailord, and a Relicanth, which seems fairly restrictive and troublesome for someone who is just playing through the game as fast as possible (using a team + a few HM slaves if needed). I don't know how much weight is being given to this, but it seems like the Regis as a whole are difficult to know how to acquire without looking it up. Very elaborate and specific way to get into the Sealed Chamber and then you still have to read Braille and walk around counterclockwise in Regice's chamber - a new player would have no idea what to do (idk just an observation)
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Karxrida said:
Regice is probably the only Regi worth getting, and it's way too out of the way with its huge detour and honestly not even that impressive considering it has 1 good matchup. Mid at best, and that's pushing it.
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Okay, it's middle tier now.
Karxrida said:
Gyarados might be strong, but it's also relying on Tackle/Rock Smash (non-STAB moves with low BP) and Bite (also a non-STAB move that's stronger, but it works off of Special Attack) until you get the Secret Power TM (acquired between Gyms 3 and 4) for a passable attacking option. You also have to baby Magikarp until 20, which is always annoying. Gyarados's sheer bulk and Intimidate are nice, but they do not make it worthy of High tier.
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I moved it to middle tier already.
Karxrida said:
Bagon is not High, it's Bottom. It's the definition of pointless time sink: it comes late, you catch it underleveled, and needs to be babied to Level 50. Just grab a Trapinch after Flannery if you want to use a Dragon.
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Bagon can be evolved into Shelgon immediately after catching it, and it can easily be exp. share trained to level 50 by traversing Victory Road and fighting the Elite Four a few times. However, I do see your point. I'll put it in middle tier.
OrangeGuru said:
Also, I don't see Slakoth being high tier. I was disappointed the one time I tried to use it because of how annoying Truant is as an ability. For someone who likes to run through quickly in subsequent playthroughs, Slakoth and Slaking are annoying because unless you can OHKO the target, you have to take more turns than necessary. Sure Vigoroth is pretty strong and fun to use, but the same problems come back upon evolving into Slaking (unless you choose not to evolve, but that makes Vigoroth fairly weak by the end)

TLDR: basically Truant is such an annoying ability that early availability and the strength of Vigoroth are cancelled out; thus Slakoth should move down to at least middle tier
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Okay, done.
 
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