Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[nofakethekairi78]

I would like to nominate Mega Venusaur To B/B+ rank.
Even I hate this pokemon,Im obligated to recognize its strenght as a solid defensive mon in Balance teams.
Unlike Tangrowth or Ferrothorn, it can deal with the majority of Magearnas,which are right now very threathful;Mega Mawile without Iron Head or Swords dance(even with a swords dance, it isnt garuanteed to bypass it,unless it has SD+Iron Head);Tangrowth which cant hit it;same with Ferrothorn;Tapu Bulu,unless it carries Z stone edge if mega venusaur is Weakened;Tapu Fini(which can beat Tangrowth with Calm mind);Amoonguss.Thanks to its bulk+its typing with Thick Fat which provides useful resistances and poison Immunity.

Besides,it has a good Special attack stat, which enable it to put a little bit pressure;thanks to Giga Drain,Synthesis and leech seed, it isnt easy to worn down.

Homever, I recognize, unlike Ferrothorn or Tangrowth it cant deal with threats such as Zygarde; it struggles against Flying and Psychic types, it requires 1 mega slot, and contrary to Tangrowth it isnt very splashable

I want to insist on the fact Mega Venusaur's rank is too low,it deserves a better rank in my opinion.Even if comparing the mons with the same rank isnt a good thing,it is actually more useful than other B- rank mons.

Also, I forgot,Mega Venusaur is Very popular compared to B- rank mons

 

[mushamu]

I would like to nominate Mega Venusaur To B/B+ rank.
Even I hate this pokemon,Im obligated to recognize its strenght as a solid defensive mon in Balance teams.
Unlike Tangrowth or Ferrothorn, it can deal with the majority of Magearnas,which are right now very threathful;Mega Mawile without Iron Head or Swords dance(even with a swords dance, it isnt garuanteed to bypass it,unless it has SD+Iron Head);Tangrowth which cant hit it;same with Ferrothorn;Tapu Bulu,unless it carries Z stone edge if mega venusaur is Weakened;Tapu Fini(which can beat Tangrowth with Calm mind);Amoonguss.Thanks to its bulk+its typing with Thick Fat which provides useful resistances and poison Immunity.

Besides,it has a good Special attack stat, which enable it to put a little bit pressure;thanks to Giga Drain,Synthesis and leech seed, it isnt easy to worn down.

Homever, I recognize, unlike Ferrothorn or Tangrowth it cant deal with threats such as Zygarde; it struggles against Flying and Psychic types, it requires 1 mega slot, and contrary to Tangrowth it isnt very splashable

I want to insist on the fact Mega Venusaur's rank is too low,it deserves a better rank in my opinion.Even if comparing the mons with the same rank isnt a good thing,it is actually more useful than other B- rank mons.

Also, I forgot,Mega Venusaur is Very popular compared to B- rank mons

Mega Venusaur has a hard time in OU because of rain and imo. Rain blocks Venusaur's synthesis, which cripples its durability, and pellipers hurricane also hits it hard.

 

[nofakethekairi78]

I see. But actually, it isnt useless against rain teams, even if rain blocks Venusaurs's synthesis(which has sometimes Leech Seed), it can check mons such as Kingdra,Mega swampert and Kabutops(even it cant switch easily against these mons)and regain its hp with Giga Drain, right? against a rain team, if it doesnt stay against a mon such as Pelipper or Tornadus-T, it can do something against rain abusers

 

[Toshiro46]

--->C+/B-

First time nominator forgive me if this is ass

Slightly surprised that no has brought Alolan-Ninetales up considering it's extremely splashable on a lot of offensive teams, giving them a more defensive backbone thanks to Auroru Veil, aiding mons like Mega-TTar, Mimikyu, Mega-Mawile, Zygarde etc etc in their role as sweepers.

Additionally, it's relatively easy for A-Ninetales to set up screens, due to it's niche speed tier and access to Hypnosis. Since rain is kinda prominent at the moment, it can easily shut down the whole team if played well.

There's not much else to say but this definitely deserves a rise in my opinion ~

Rain has been far more relevant in this past month due to Swampert's introduction (This is the first time in months that an almost rain exclusive mon, pelipper, has been in the A ranks), and A-Ninetails is incredible against it, being able to OHKO and outspeed almost every rain sweeper *and* Pelipper with freeze-dry and removal of rain.

There's also the consideration of Megagross's ban, as it was a huge offensive and even defensive check to A-Ninetails. However, said ban brought about Magearna's rise, and Magearna defensively stops A-Ninetails completely. But then again, Ninetails doesn't need to stay in, it just needs a turn to get aurora veil off, and unlike Megagross, Magearna is outsped by A-Ninetails.

So there's some good and bad stuff going for it right now, but overall I think Magearna is better for A-Ninetails than Megagross is, and rain is just good for it period.

So a rise is something to be considered.

Also lol Volcarona is still not A+ especially with Chansey being better and better but w/e.

And on that note Chansey should rise too, there's so many relevant SpAs rn that it just stops cold.

 

[Martin]

I think aurora veil offense is garbage personally, and even if it does benefit from the rise in rain it doesn't change the fact that veil offense is really linear, hasn't really had much in the way of tournament or ladder success from what I've seen, forces you to give up a team slot to run Alolan Ninetales (which provides little-to-nothing in the way of defensive synergy while really heavily lacking in firepower due to the generally low BP of its moves if it chooses to forgo Moonblast and/or Blizzard, forcing it into a purely supportive role which doesn't have much flexibility with regards to the way it functions). The other thing is that there are loads of other checks to rain which are far easier to plug onto teams (e.g. Ferrothorn, Mantine, Toxapex, or even Gastrodon), and you also need to consider that the rise in rain is counteracted by the fact that it has a harder time than ever actually fulfilling its role due to the rise in TTar/MegaTar usage and the fact that Ninetales has no way of posing providing any kind of utility at all vs any team featuring Mega Charizard Y short of running some niche shit like HP Rock or Hail, which obviously comes at the cost of other, more valuable assets. It just feels like every time something goes in favor of Alolan Ninetales something else shifts to push it back down again, and I don't think there has been any significant enough change favoring Alolan Ninetales to warrant a rise at this point in time.

 

[njnp]

I think aurora veil offense is garbage personally, and even if it does benefit from the rise in rain it doesn't change the fact that veil offense is really linear, hasn't really had much in the way of tournament or ladder success from what I've seen, forces you to give up a team slot to run Alolan Ninetales (which provides little-to-nothing in the way of defensive synergy while really heavily lacking in firepower due to the generally low BP of its moves if it chooses to forgo Moonblast and/or Blizzard, forcing it into a purely supportive role which doesn't have much flexibility with regards to the way it functions). The other thing is that there are loads of other checks to rain which are far easier to plug onto teams (e.g. Ferrothorn, Mantine, Toxapex, or even Gastrodon), and you also need to consider that the rise in rain is counteracted by the fact that it has a harder time than ever actually fulfilling its role due to the rise in TTar/MegaTar usage and the fact that Ninetales has no way of posing providing any kind of utility at all vs any team featuring Mega Charizard Y short of running some niche shit like HP Rock or Hail, which obviously comes at the cost of other, more valuable assets. It just feels like every time something goes in favor of Alolan Ninetales something else shifts to push it back down again, and I don't think there has been any significant enough change favoring Alolan Ninetales to warrant a rise at this point in time.

This is just a post with very little knowledge it seems after reading, currently veil offense has been spammed on the ladder. This post was bout to my attention because I've popularized 2 of the well put together veil teams. One made by myself and one made by imsorrylol..I simply just helped edit.

Anyway, you bring up tour success....

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-586651572

Rob used my version of veil offense to beat his opp finding true love to win ou circuit finals.

Here is pokeaims video using imsorrylol version of veil.

Anyway, I'm on phone so can't really go into depth but basically..yes with the rise of rain usage veil offense is a very nice counter to it. It also is just generally a great style for ho. HO is much different from what it was last gen. HO this gen is literally only webs and veil as far as viability and consistency goes. Maybe with more bans other styles will appear...but currently veil is certainly fine and that is alolan ninetales niche. Alolan ninetales has very nice spd bulk an amazing speed tier. It has a nice move pool, being able to hypnotize your putting a mon that your team would struggle with to sleep whole setting up veil is really great. I think with the success it has consistently had it should rise.

That is all, love you Martin and most of your posts.

Oh P.S. Just wanted to add that its currently best to run hail on ur ninetales imo so you can set up hail on pelip switch ins and ttar. Set up dat veil.

 

[Martin]

This is just a post with very little knowledge it seems after reading, currently veil offense has been spammed on the ladder. This post was bout to my attention because I've popularized 2 of the well put together veil teams. One made by myself and one made by imsorrylol..I simply just helped edit.

Anyway, you bring up tour success....

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-586651572

Rob used my version of veil offense to beat his opp finding true love to win ou circuit finals.

Here is pokeaims video using imsorrylol version of veil.

Anyway, I'm on phone so can't really go into depth but basically..yes with the rise of rain usage veil offense is a very nice counter to it. It also is just generally a great style for ho. HO is much different from what it was last gen. HO this gen is literally only webs and veil as far as viability and consistency goes. Maybe with more bans other styles will appear...but currently veil is certainly fine and that is alolan ninetales niche. Alolan ninetales has very nice spd bulk an amazing speed tier. It has a nice move pool, being able to hypnotize your putting a mon that your team would struggle with to sleep whole setting up veil is really great. I think with the success it has consistently had it should rise.

That is all, love you Martin and most of your posts.

Oh P.S. Just wanted to add that its currently best to run hail on ur ninetales imo so you can set up hail on pelip switch ins and ttar. Set up dat veil.

I wasn't aware of this; my bad then haha. I'd used some AV offense variants on the ladder and hadn't rlly had much success w/ them, so maybe it was just the teams I was using or smth. I'll mess around w/ what you've got and maybe make a better post later.

Anyway so this post isn't wasted, what are people's general thoughts on Latias? I've used it a little recently and just find the role compression it provides to be extremely nice in general. HWish is so good and I really think people undersell how useful of a tool it is to have in the back, and despite Tar being popular now its still really nice to be able to basically have Latios+HWish in one slot especially w/ the popularity of stuff like Keld remaining as consistent as it is. I don't think it's a full 3 subranks worse than Latios, but idk how I'd compare it to the other stuff around it.

Also to stick to the discussion point, I agree with Chansey to A at this point. The utility it provides is just really, really useful on a lot of teams, and it feels a lot easier to fit onto teams than a lot of the stuff on A- does, at least to me. I find myself using it a lot more than I used to and think it should rise.

 

[Night Train Lane]

I like Latias a lot actually, despite having so many things going against it (Mag, Celes, Ttar/ mega tar) scarf healing wish is very good utility - while still providing defog / trick options and the bulk of being Latias. I think it has its niche on more offensive teams. Giving your sweeper / breaker a 2nd chance, getting free switches on good match ups (like getting Mag / Volc in on set up fodder), a fast draco nuke which is always good.

It's psyshock is weak as hell and Latios is definitely the better pokemon overall. I think it's better than most things that's its ranked along side of - but that doesn't necessarily justify a rise.

Chansey to A: Agree

 

[NG Spencer]

I would like to nominate Mega Venusaur To B/B+ rank.
Even I hate this pokemon,Im obligated to recognize its strenght as a solid defensive mon in Balance teams.
Unlike Tangrowth or Ferrothorn, it can deal with the majority of Magearnas,which are right now very threathful;Mega Mawile without Iron Head or Swords dance(even with a swords dance, it isnt garuanteed to bypass it,unless it has SD+Iron Head);Tangrowth which cant hit it;same with Ferrothorn;Tapu Bulu,unless it carries Z stone edge if mega venusaur is Weakened;Tapu Fini(which can beat Tangrowth with Calm mind);Amoonguss.Thanks to its bulk+its typing with Thick Fat which provides useful resistances and poison Immunity.

Besides,it has a good Special attack stat, which enable it to put a little bit pressure;thanks to Giga Drain,Synthesis and leech seed, it isnt easy to worn down.

Homever, I recognize, unlike Ferrothorn or Tangrowth it cant deal with threats such as Zygarde; it struggles against Flying and Psychic types, it requires 1 mega slot, and contrary to Tangrowth it isnt very splashable

I want to insist on the fact Mega Venusaur's rank is too low,it deserves a better rank in my opinion.Even if comparing the mons with the same rank isnt a good thing,it is actually more useful than other B- rank mons.

Also, I forgot,Mega Venusaur is Very popular compared to B- rank mons

I fully agree with this nomination, Venusaur is far better than anything in the B- rank, and whenever it is brought up, it is ignored for some reason. I recently expressed my opinion in why venusaur should rise, but just to reiterate it, venusaur should be higher due to its ability to counter tapu bulu, magearna, mawile, unlike tangrowth, while still remaining an excellent switchin to non extra greninja, ash greninja pre evo, tapu koko and keldeo. It is a free switchin to otherwise threatening mons like zapdos, manectric, clefable and tangrowth. I understand the rise in heatrans subtoxic set is concerning, but if it is really an issue for your team, run earthquake on venusaur, it also has the added bonus of giving you an even easier time when facing cm magearna, and is imo the best set since it is more threatening to give heatran a free switchin on the more defensive teams venusaur is used on in comparison to ferrothorn, scizor or celesteela(who takes nothing from defensive hp fire anyway, but if spdef loses to leech seed varients).

 

[Yasuo]

If the viability ranking follows the alphabet in each subcategory, Greninja has to be placed in front of Heatran in the A+ rank^^
I think Ash Greninja should be ranked as Greninja-Ash like it appears in the teambuilder. But this is optional for sure

 

[Dreadfury]

This double-nom may be a bit of a stretch currently, as well as a very long post, but I would argue that both Mega Swampert and Kingdra should rise to A-. They certainly require a bit more support than a lot of the stuff in A- since they both depend on Pelipper's rain to succeed, but with rain being prominent and centralizing enough I'd argue that these two sweepers/wallbreakers should be ranked alongside the very threat that makes them as good as they are.

To an extent, they both fulfill a very similar role as Swift Swim sweepers/wallbreakers, but these two also pair incredibly well with one-another, as there are very few (if any) threats in the current metagame that can stomach a hit from both. Even something as bulky as Mega Venusaur can't reliably switch in on Mega Swampert unless it's running full investment, in which case Kingdra (honestly, Pelipper could do this too) just tears it apart with a specs Draco Meteor instead. An extremely fat special wall like Chansey which could sponge the likes of Specs Kingdra's rain-boosted Hydro Pump would be forced to take a strong physical hit from Mega Swampert instead.

Mega Swampert can run Power-up Punch to severely punish switches while maintaining solid coverage with STABs+Ice Punch. Just to show a case for Power-up Punch over something else:

+1 252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 205-243 (61.5 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Now, I clearly cannot see myself falling back on Skarmory as a last-ditch attempt to answer something as incredibly dangerous as a Mega Swampert under rain. But after a boost Skarmory simply finds itself as nothing more than a shaky check at best if it switches in on the Power-up Punch. Simply getting a Waterfall flinch at that point would quite literally result in a very, very quick victory, as there are very few OU-viable mons that want to take a hit from it. Even all but the most physically-bulky Mega Venusaur variants take about 70% from a boosted Earthquake (although Venusaur could obviously get a Giga Drain off thereafter).

Mega Swampert also has many opportunities to just throw out a Power-up Punch freely: 100/110/110 bulk, even when uninvested, allows it to live hits like CB Zygarde's Thousand Arrows (just for reference, of course; that's a very spammable and extremely powerful move) by a comfortable amount and fire back the following turn with an Ice Punch and carry that +1 boost over for the rest of the rain's duration. Things that could take a +0 EQ or Waterfall will generally be effortlessly 2HKOed or even OHKOed by those moves at +1.

Kingdra obviously doesn't have the versatility Swampert has as a Swift Swim sweeper, but it makes up for this with sheer firepower (or whatever you'd call it in this case; the rain weakens firepower if we're taking things literally). Outside of devoted special walls like Chansey there is very, very little that wants to take a Specs-boosted Hydro Pump or Scald in the rain to the face. Anything that can has to fear Draco Meteor or Ice Beam instead. And if Mega Swampert and Pelipper manage to deal with those devoted checks Kingdra only has to fear that 20% miss chance when it sweeps your opponent's team thereafter if it finds itself even needing to use Hydro Pump over Scald. And because it excels so much at wallbreaking because of how hard that Hydro Pump hits (it caps out at 33% of Chansey's health and that's quite literally the only OU-viable mon that takes anything near that little) it can pave the way for a Swampert sweep just as easily as Swampert's wallbreaking capabilities can pave the way for a Kingdra sweep.

TL;DR: If Pelipper has any business being A-, which I agree it does, then the two offensive threats that its Drizzle supports best should be up there alongside it.

 

[Reviloja753]

I agree with Kingdra to A-. Not only is Swift Swim on the rise, Sniper is still really good. I disagree with Mega Swampert though. It has little use outside of rain imo, as it is too slow to operate outside of rain. Rain is really good, but it doesn't last forever.

 

[écarlate]

I agree with Kingdra to A-. Not only is Swift Swim on the rise, Sniper is still really good. I disagree with Mega Swampert though. It has little use outside of rain imo, as it is too slow to operate outside of rain. Rain is really good, but it doesn't last forever.

Kingdra's only use is as a rain abuser because of Swift Swim, you really shouldn't use Sniper Kingdra in OU ever.

 

[bludz]

I agree with raising Mega Venusaur to B rank.

A few things are going in its favor lately. It's one of the stronger checks to most Magearna, one of the more dominant pokemon right now, only really losing to CM variants if non-Leech and the extremely rare Corkscrew Crash. It's fairly good against Rain teams too, despite Synthesis being weakened in Rain. Hard checking Tapu Bulu since they rarely run Zen Headbutt now is amazing. 1v1s all Tangrowths and doesn't have to worry about Knock Off. Appreciates Lele taking a slight hit in viability and is also good against stuff like Knock Off Clefable which is fairly popular in the tournament scene. Tyranitar's rise in viability hurts it a bit because of Sandstorm but not too much, and I would say it's actually pretty damn decent even if Mega Pinsir is probably the most dominant Mega right now. I would certainly rather use it over Manectric which is currently in B.

 

[Gary]

This double-nom may be a bit of a stretch currently, as well as a very long post, but I would argue that both Mega Swampert and Kingdra should rise to A-. They certainly require a bit more support than a lot of the stuff in A- since they both depend on Pelipper's rain to succeed, but with rain being prominent and centralizing enough I'd argue that these two sweepers/wallbreakers should be ranked alongside the very threat that makes them as good as they are.

To an extent, they both fulfill a very similar role as Swift Swim sweepers/wallbreakers, but these two also pair incredibly well with one-another, as there are very few (if any) threats in the current metagame that can stomach a hit from both. Even something as bulky as Mega Venusaur can't reliably switch in on Mega Swampert unless it's running full investment, in which case Kingdra (honestly, Pelipper could do this too) just tears it apart with a specs Draco Meteor instead. An extremely fat special wall like Chansey which could sponge the likes of Specs Kingdra's rain-boosted Hydro Pump would be forced to take a strong physical hit from Mega Swampert instead.

Mega Swampert can run Power-up Punch to severely punish switches while maintaining solid coverage with STABs+Ice Punch. Just to show a case for Power-up Punch over something else:

+1 252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 205-243 (61.5 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Now, I clearly cannot see myself falling back on Skarmory as a last-ditch attempt to answer something as incredibly dangerous as a Mega Swampert under rain. But after a boost Skarmory simply finds itself as nothing more than a shaky check at best if it switches in on the Power-up Punch. Simply getting a Waterfall flinch at that point would quite literally result in a very, very quick victory, as there are very few OU-viable mons that want to take a hit from it. Even all but the most physically-bulky Mega Venusaur variants take about 70% from a boosted Earthquake (although Venusaur could obviously get a Giga Drain off thereafter).

Mega Swampert also has many opportunities to just throw out a Power-up Punch freely: 100/110/110 bulk, even when uninvested, allows it to live hits like CB Zygarde's Thousand Arrows (just for reference, of course; that's a very spammable and extremely powerful move) by a comfortable amount and fire back the following turn with an Ice Punch and carry that +1 boost over for the rest of the rain's duration. Things that could take a +0 EQ or Waterfall will generally be effortlessly 2HKOed or even OHKOed by those moves at +1.

Kingdra obviously doesn't have the versatility Swampert has as a Swift Swim sweeper, but it makes up for this with sheer firepower (or whatever you'd call it in this case; the rain weakens firepower if we're taking things literally). Outside of devoted special walls like Chansey there is very, very little that wants to take a Specs-boosted Hydro Pump or Scald in the rain to the face. Anything that can has to fear Draco Meteor or Ice Beam instead. And if Mega Swampert and Pelipper manage to deal with those devoted checks Kingdra only has to fear that 20% miss chance when it sweeps your opponent's team thereafter if it finds itself even needing to use Hydro Pump over Scald. And because it excels so much at wallbreaking because of how hard that Hydro Pump hits (it caps out at 33% of Chansey's health and that's quite literally the only OU-viable mon that takes anything near that little) it can pave the way for a Swampert sweep just as easily as Swampert's wallbreaking capabilities can pave the way for a Kingdra sweep.

TL;DR: If Pelipper has any business being A-, which I agree it does, then the two offensive threats that its Drizzle supports best should be up there alongside it.

As of now, the ranking team is not really discussing moving the swimmers up to A-. As I've said in my update post, Pelipper is ranked above the swimmers because of the immense amount of support it provides not only to the swimmers themselves, but also to other teammates defensively as well as offensively. It's also a very dangerous threat on its own, capable of running a very strong offensive Specs set with very limited reliable switch-ins. While the swimmers are obviously a major reason to use Pelipper, it's also very solid as a Pokemon by itself for its overall supporting and offensive abilities, so it makes sense to have it higher than them for the moment.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

While we're at it with Mega Mane, can we see it drop to B-? I honestly don't see this as better than anything in B- - in fact, I can point to several who are better but still deserve B-. Also, it's clearly the worst in B. The special attack looks nice until you realize there's no boosting item. It doesn't do enough to Tangrowth even with overheat (I remember the calc not being even a 2hko). Though the sped is great for getting a jump on Ash-Gren, it's not enough to stop it from being revenged by the common >100 base Scarf users and even Ash Gren (Water shuriken I've heard does 75%). Rain tends to have Ash Gren and/or Mega Swampert, both which deal with Mega Mane rather nicely. Chansey getting better does not help it, and Magearna's OTR set ruins Mega Mane.
Looking at B rank, I can see:

• Mimikyu, a staple on many Webs and TR teams
• Alomomola, a staple on many stall teams
• Terrakion and Nihilego, who are good scarf users
• Smeargle, a staple on the ever-rising Webs
• Suicune, whose Vincune set can ravage unprepared teams
• Mega Slowbro and Reuniclus, two bulky Psychics in a meta where bulky psychics are great

and lots more.

All of these are 100% better than Mega Mane, who really does not fit with them. Now, we see B- rank, which has

• Mega Zard X, which can truly sweep unprepared teams
• Muk Alolan, who is a good pursuit user
• PoryZ and Salamence (Mega Shark too), who are great late game sweepers

I don't see any of these as worse than Mega Mane.
tl;dr Chansey hurts Mega Mane, >100 base speed scarfers hurt Mane, rain teams are not really a good match up for Mega Mane, and Magearna doesn't straight up lose vs Mane. All of these are rising. B rank is filled with many mons who are staples on many great teams, and B- is filled with mons like Mega Mane who aren't that good but are still decent. I don't see Mega Mane in B rank, and it ought to drop to B-.

 

[Photofluid]

This double-nom may be a bit of a stretch currently, as well as a very long post, but I would argue that both Mega Swampert and Kingdra should rise to A-. They certainly require a bit more support than a lot of the stuff in A- since they both depend on Pelipper's rain to succeed, but with rain being prominent and centralizing enough I'd argue that these two sweepers/wallbreakers should be ranked alongside the very threat that makes them as good as they are.

To an extent, they both fulfill a very similar role as Swift Swim sweepers/wallbreakers, but these two also pair incredibly well with one-another, as there are very few (if any) threats in the current metagame that can stomach a hit from both. Even something as bulky as Mega Venusaur can't reliably switch in on Mega Swampert unless it's running full investment, in which case Kingdra (honestly, Pelipper could do this too) just tears it apart with a specs Draco Meteor instead. An extremely fat special wall like Chansey which could sponge the likes of Specs Kingdra's rain-boosted Hydro Pump would be forced to take a strong physical hit from Mega Swampert instead.

Mega Swampert can run Power-up Punch to severely punish switches while maintaining solid coverage with STABs+Ice Punch. Just to show a case for Power-up Punch over something else:

+1 252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 205-243 (61.5 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Now, I clearly cannot see myself falling back on Skarmory as a last-ditch attempt to answer something as incredibly dangerous as a Mega Swampert under rain. But after a boost Skarmory simply finds itself as nothing more than a shaky check at best if it switches in on the Power-up Punch. Simply getting a Waterfall flinch at that point would quite literally result in a very, very quick victory, as there are very few OU-viable mons that want to take a hit from it. Even all but the most physically-bulky Mega Venusaur variants take about 70% from a boosted Earthquake (although Venusaur could obviously get a Giga Drain off thereafter).

Mega Swampert also has many opportunities to just throw out a Power-up Punch freely: 100/110/110 bulk, even when uninvested, allows it to live hits like CB Zygarde's Thousand Arrows (just for reference, of course; that's a very spammable and extremely powerful move) by a comfortable amount and fire back the following turn with an Ice Punch and carry that +1 boost over for the rest of the rain's duration. Things that could take a +0 EQ or Waterfall will generally be effortlessly 2HKOed or even OHKOed by those moves at +1.

Kingdra obviously doesn't have the versatility Swampert has as a Swift Swim sweeper, but it makes up for this with sheer firepower (or whatever you'd call it in this case; the rain weakens firepower if we're taking things literally). Outside of devoted special walls like Chansey there is very, very little that wants to take a Specs-boosted Hydro Pump or Scald in the rain to the face. Anything that can has to fear Draco Meteor or Ice Beam instead. And if Mega Swampert and Pelipper manage to deal with those devoted checks Kingdra only has to fear that 20% miss chance when it sweeps your opponent's team thereafter if it finds itself even needing to use Hydro Pump over Scald. And because it excels so much at wallbreaking because of how hard that Hydro Pump hits (it caps out at 33% of Chansey's health and that's quite literally the only OU-viable mon that takes anything near that little) it can pave the way for a Swampert sweep just as easily as Swampert's wallbreaking capabilities can pave the way for a Kingdra sweep.

TL;DR: If Pelipper has any business being A-, which I agree it does, then the two offensive threats that its Drizzle supports best should be up there alongside it.

I think the key is although there are not a lot of reasons to do so Pelipper actually has a lot of merit to be used even without the swimmers (and it is not completely uncommon to drop one of the two) while the opposite is obviously not true.

 

[robopoke]

A-> A+

Whenever I build a serious BO Team, I always catch myself using this mon. The Set I am talking about is the following:

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
Happiness: 0
EVs: 240 HP / 120 Def / 148 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Soft-Boiled
- Will-O-Wisp
- Ice Beam

Mew is without a doubt the Defogger in SM OU. It is not weak to Rocks, can deal with most Zygarde Sets, counters Mega Medicham and many Protean Greninjas. The commonly used Set was a very bulky Set on both sides but after seeing some Worldcup games I saw people use fast Mew (I think mencemeat used it and other people probably as well) that barely outspeeds Adamant Zygarde. The only problem with that Set is that Adamant Mega Medicham can 2HKO you after Rocks. That is why I prefer 300 Speed to outspeed Medicham and heal up on it or give it a surprise fast Wisp. Jolly Variants do not 2HKO even after Rocks.

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 240 HP / 120 Def Mew: 156-185 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Defog is almost as necesarry as Stealth Rock on any serious team. Mew found very high usage and one thing that caught my interest is that the common Ciele/I like pink mons stallteam was successfully used with Mew over Skarmory as Defogger:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-298103

A trend that helps Mew is Heatran not using Stealth Rock on its Set. Sub/Toxic is still the most used Set and and the reason is obvious. Dugtrios prevalence discourages any player from using Heatran as their Stealth Rocker and encourages Substitute Sets to make trapping Heatran more difficult.

Mews options are limitless. Depending on team weaknesses, other moves such as Thunder Wave, Psychic or Earthpower can be used. This flexibility, the consistency as defogger and Bulky Offense being at its peak should be enough to make Mew A+.

 

[Ema Skye]

Thoughts on Zapdos A- --> A?

Zapdos is really versatile in today's meta. It fits well on stall with a bulky Defog set, or a solid bulky attacker with 3 attacks + Roost, and can go offensive with 3 attacks + Agility. The Electric/Fire/Ice coverage is very difficult for teams to find a switchin for (Chansey, Latios, Tyranitar, Marowak-A and M-Swampert are the big ones). Zapdos' typing is excellent as well, letting it check Lando, AV Magearna, all Celesteela, Tangrowth, Bulu, Ferro, Chomp, Keld, Zone, Mawile, Pinsir and Scizor, as some examples. It's a solid blanket check, like Tangrowth, in that it's bulky but also hits hard. It feels more in line with Ferrothorn and Toxapex, and especially Mew, than Skarmory or Amoonguss.

Also would like to support Dugtrio A --> A+ because it's literally the face of stall. Dugtrio is literally a requirement on stall, and recent tournament play has proven this. It's the face of the playstyle, moreso than Mega Sableye or Chansey. But Dugtrio also finds itself being very effective on offense for the same reason. It pairs well with so many sweepers (espeially Fightinium-Z SG Magearna). It's one of the very few Pokemon that finds itself being an amazing choice for every team, and I think this is the reason it warrants the rank up.

 

[Seth_]

I have hard time believing that Dragalge is unranked. This mon does really well in this meta, deserving C+ or even higher.

Since metagross ban everything went well for this mon. Gengar, nihilego, and other posion types went down in usage, leaving much room for Tspikes support. Volcarona is not used as much so you don't have to be afraid about Z-Psychic. Most spammed mons like Zaptos, Koko, ZardY, Bulu, Keldeo are beaten by it. Rain is more popular so another thing able to come on specs hydro is needed. Dragalge is suprisingly good right now.

Tspikes are godlike right now. Well played can poison Mew, Fini, Tangrowth and bring them down to the point the cannot wall anything (tangrowth takes almost from scarf keldeo if rocks and tspikes are up). Since half of meta has bad matchup against dragalge it is to lay them down.

And now some replays showing how much support gives and how good dragalge is:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598473284
Thanks to Tspikes Heracross is able to murder half of enemy's team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598468323
After ground types are dead, dragalge almost deals with rest of rain team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598453890
Same deal. Excadrill dies, Tyranitar dies and suddenly nothing can deal damage to Dragalge.

This mon is way too solid to be unranked.

 

[Tramuntana]

While we're at it with Mega Mane, can we see it drop to B-? I honestly don't see this as better than anything in B- - in fact, I can point to several who are better but still deserve B-. Also, it's clearly the worst in B. The special attack looks nice until you realize there's no boosting item. It doesn't do enough to Tangrowth even with overheat (I remember the calc not being even a 2hko). Though the sped is great for getting a jump on Ash-Gren, it's not enough to stop it from being revenged by the common >100 base Scarf users and even Ash Gren (Water shuriken I've heard does 75%). Rain tends to have Ash Gren and/or Mega Swampert, both which deal with Mega Mane rather nicely. Chansey getting better does not help it, and Magearna's OTR set ruins Mega Mane.

Short answer: Mega Man is a potent pivot with Intimidate and Volt Switch, and it makes an excellent partner for Landorus-T
Long answer: Mega Man provides the fastest non-choiced Volt Switch in the tier that by definition is always a good thing, and has much better coverage than many electric types. Intimidate provides much needed utility against pokemon like Gyarados. He can also boast to be able to outspeed and KO Dugtrio with Stealth Rock support- Just remember, to OHKO Dugtrio after Stealth Rock, you need to use Overheat. HP Ice will just barely fail at it.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

Also would like to support Dugtrio A --> A+ because it's literally the face of stall. Dugtrio is literally a requirement on stall, and recent tournament play has proven this. It's the face of the playstyle, moreso than Mega Sableye or Chansey. But Dugtrio also finds itself being very effective on offense for the same reason. It pairs well with so many sweepers (espeially Fightinium-Z SG Magearna). It's one of the very few Pokemon that finds itself being an amazing choice for every team, and I think this is the reason it warrants the rank up.

You're right in the fact that Dugtrio is invaluable to stall, but it's not an amazing choice for every team like you stated. In fact, it's very situational and mu reliant. It does aid offense and certain mons like Zard-Y & Volc very well, but is not a complete necessity either. All these points were stated in Gary's post last update when it rose to A and nothing really has changed since then to make it rise to A+.

Nevertheless, I think Dugtrio is a better fit in A than A+ because when I look at A+, I see mons that have an impact on the battle 8/9 times out of 10. Someone from the ranking team made a really good post about this before but I couldn't find it unfortunately. Both Greninja forms, Celesteela, Heatran, Zygarde, and so on fit this description - their combination of typing + movepool makes them annoying for most teams to face and they can contribute a lot to a variety of different teams.

Dugtrio, on the other hand, has a hard time succeeding vs more common defensive cores - think Tangrowth/Mew, Lando-T, Celesteela, etc. I think Duggy is definitely more comparable to the impact that mons in A have than A+ (Pinsir, Koko, Ferro, Keldeo, etc). It also isn't very hard to revenge kill with priority, scarf users, faster mons, or mons it just can't touch in general. For this reason, I think Duggy is fine in A.

I have hard time believing that Dragalge is unranked. This mon does really well in this meta, deserving C+ or even higher.

Since metagross ban everything went well for this mon. Gengar, nihilego, and other posion types went down in usage, leaving much room for Tspikes support. Volcarona is not used as much so you don't have to be afraid about Z-Psychic. Most spammed mons like Zaptos, Koko, ZardY, Bulu, Keldeo are beaten by it. Rain is more popular so another thing able to come on specs hydro is needed. Dragalge is suprisingly good right now.

Tspikes are godlike right now. Well played can poison Mew, Fini, Tangrowth and bring them down to the point the cannot wall anything (tangrowth takes almost from scarf keldeo if rocks and tspikes are up). Since half of meta has bad matchup against dragalge it is to lay them down.

And now some replays showing how much support gives and how good dragalge is:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598473284
Thanks to Tspikes Heracross is able to murder half of enemy's team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598468323
After ground types are dead, dragalge almost deals with rest of rain team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598453890
Same deal. Excadrill dies, Tyranitar dies and suddenly nothing can deal damage to Dragalge.

This mon is way too solid to be unranked.

Although I wouldn't oppose a Dragalge rise (I honestly haven't even used the thing lol), I don't think it's all too viable in the current meta, especially not for C+. I'm not sure what spread you're using so my apologies if I state something wrong.

For starters, it can't switch in to Lando, Zygarde, Garchomp, or Latios, can't touch Magearna, Celesteela, Heatran, and Ferro, gets trapped by Duggy, almost dies to +2 Grassium Bulu (depends on the spread but Rockium destroys it), loses to Volc if it QD's on your switch (unless no HP Ground/Psychic, but this definitely means Duggy support), loses vs Mawile, struggles vs Tyranitar as it can DD on it, and even stuff that it's supposed to beat like Mew/Tangrowth still have a chance to beat it if they don't switch in on a layer of Tspikes (if you switch in to Tangrowth, you risk EQ or even Knock), and Chansey is everywhere.

Of course, this stuff is all on paper and some even depend on your last move (Focus Blast/HP Fire/Scald), but it shows that 1) it's not very easy to get Dragalge in and 2) it gets forced out a lot by popular mons. Even stuff like rain has Specs Pelipper, Swampert, and Ferro, and one wrong prediction vs Kingdra can suck.

Lastly, I think the replays are a bit lacking; they don't really show "how good" Dragalge is in the sense that: Not sure why your opponent went for Pursuit in the second one (Knock was much better even if he expected Suicune, as it 2hkos) and he could've just killed Dragalge, and in the last one your opponent sacks Excadrill for some reason and then missed the last Fire Blast (altho tbh, he should've just sacked Keldeo).

Overall, I think that if I wanted to use Tspikes, I would just opt to use Toxapex, but I do get that Dragalge brings some offensive presence with it too. Just wanted to give my two cents on it amd why the majority of the meta is unkind to it and why the replays don't merit it a C+ ranking.

Some other points which I sadly can't elaborate on more atm:

Chansey should rise. It's an amazing answer to all the special attackers running around and provides offense with defensive relief.

Mega Venusaur should also rise. The reasons were stated in previous posts, but its overall bulk makes it annoying for many unprepared teams to break through.

Indifferent to a Mew rise.

Disagree with Zapdos to A, but I don't use it enough to chime in on it.

A couple of noms I'll write about later but will mention here to remind myself:

Gengar A- ---> A
Tapu Fini B+ ---> A-

 

[Seth_]

stuff

Yes, that's true, at lest most of it. Dragalge is not as good as magearna or OU primal groundon. However it is viable, it has some nice matchups and some points over toxapex to use. First is that it actually resist electric and grass letting it counter big threats like zaptos and koko. I used this ability to support VinCune. Second one is ability to actually deal damage. People are like dragalge is no mon and they are kinda shocked when their scizor, heatran took half or excadrill just fall over. Ability to actually threaten things like fini, or tangrowth is indeed useful.

And about replays. Well of course there are not gratest team (definitely not mine lol) or greatest plays. However they are in no way trash teams or trash players. SmogTours server saw much worse kinds of chokes than underestimating heracross and much worse team building. I think they are quite accurate showing how average ladder match looks like.

 

[Reviloja753]

I think that Dragalge isn't worthy of C+. I think it would fit best at C-, but even then that's a stretch. A less passive Toxapex is neat for BO I suppose. However, getting two layers of Tspikes is hard even for Pex. Normal Poison isn't all that good. Also, there are too many relevant threats to Dragalge for a single team to cover. If ranks went down to D-F, I would say Dragalge would be D or D+. But since that doesn't exist, I think Dragalge should remain unranked.

 

[Seth_]

Well poison is actually better than toxic!

Toxic only pays of if mon stays in at least 4 turns and even then it is really small advantage of 6,25%. Staying 5 turn in happens very, very raerly and skilled players tends to switch out if their tank is poisoned (especially if it is regenerator such as tangrowth, slowbro). Toxic should never be main way of dealing with tanks, more of way of putting pressure, because poisoned tanks have many turns to shuffle your team around/set up/defog rocks deal damage etc.