Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v4

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Are there any notable calc changes that max HP and max SpA brings to the table that the other spread doesn't accomplish? I'd rather have that clutch speed as it enables Camel to 1v1 Pex most of the time if it comes to that.

Yeah that's a big matchup to win given that Toxapex is a frequent bulky core member along side Tang, Steela, Clef, etc. Outspeeding it can catch your opponent off-guard if they think Pex could come in and revenge for example.
 
Yeah that's a big matchup to win given that Toxapex is a frequent bulky core member along side Tang, Steela, Clef, etc. Outspeeding it can catch your opponent off-guard if they think Pex could come in and revenge for example.
I think, from a strength of argument stance, we shouldn't endorse the thought that known spreads should catch someone off guard. Seeing as we're trying to come up with the best spread on a public forum, we should assume that people have knowledge of this spread.

That said, I would echo the sentiment that you are better off outspeeding Toxapex. Generally speaking, most things carry a move that can significantly threaten Camerupt, so bulk is more used for tanking resisted hits than stomaching SE ones.

Edit: On top of that, outspeeding Tox 100% of the time sounds better than tanking a few select moves only some of the time. Camerupt is rarely at 100%.
 
Camel hype aside (it's absolutely godlike in this tier and I love it), I'm really, really, really finding myself despising Dugtrio. You can't really prepare for it in any sense (outspeeding it is out of the question since it outspeeds every relevant mon except for a few +2 things and Scarf Greninja), the one thing that it doesn't outspeed gets wrecked by the Focus Sash+Edge variants, and its toolkit allows it to pick and choose exactly what it wants to trap and eliminate. Screech+Groundium-Z variants break past half my devoted walls and the thing still manages to troll you even after it's trapped something annoying with Toxic or Memento. I find playing around it incredibly boring and difficult since I have to win numerous prediction wars to not get something deleted by it.

I'm very surprised people are shooting it down for an S-ranking in the OUVR, but whatever. I feel like Dugtrio's really, really starting to reach "this isn't even fun anymore" levels of unhealthy. I feel like I can't run something like Zard X because Dugtrio eats it alive. I feel like I can't run one of the TTars because Dugtrio revenges them both with some chip damage. Heck, I even get scared of using stuff like Heatran because I can get punished for making a really good prediction and OHKOing something with it since Dugtrio can just come right out and turn a clear victory into a trade or a complete disadvantage on my end.

How do you guys deal with Dugtrio currently? I can hardly figure out proper counterplay to it without finding myself incredibly weak to something like S4 Lando, Volcarona, or one of the other S or A+ threats.
 
Camel hype aside (it's absolutely godlike in this tier and I love it), I'm really, really, really finding myself despising Dugtrio. You can't really prepare for it in any sense (outspeeding it is out of the question since it outspeeds every relevant mon except for a few +2 things and Scarf Greninja), the one thing that it doesn't outspeed gets wrecked by the Focus Sash+Edge variants, and its toolkit allows it to pick and choose exactly what it wants to trap and eliminate. Screech+Groundium-Z variants break past half my devoted walls and the thing still manages to troll you even after it's trapped something annoying with Toxic or Memento. I find playing around it incredibly boring and difficult since I have to win numerous prediction wars to not get something deleted by it.

I'm very surprised people are shooting it down for an S-ranking in the OUVR, but whatever. I feel like Dugtrio's really, really starting to reach "this isn't even fun anymore" levels of unhealthy. I feel like I can't run something like Zard X because Dugtrio eats it alive. I feel like I can't run one of the TTars because Dugtrio revenges them both with some chip damage. Heck, I even get scared of using stuff like Heatran because I can get punished for making a really good prediction and OHKOing something with it since Dugtrio can just come right out and turn a clear victory into a trade or a complete disadvantage on my end.

How do you guys deal with Dugtrio currently? I can hardly figure out proper counterplay to it without finding myself incredibly weak to something like S4 Lando, Volcarona, or one of the other S or A+ threats.

I'm trying to move away from the pokemans, but I see things like this and it makes me log back on >:)

I'm getting really tired of reading about how dugtrio is "unhealthy" everytime someone let's their Pokemon get revenged for free. If anything, dugtrio is healthy for the meta, in both promoting thoughtful play and team building decisions.

The "dugtrio problem" seems so much worse this generation because of the continual powercreep of both stall and breakers. Walling defensive cores are so effective that removing the single breaker from the opposing team is an auto win. Conversely, there are so many balance breakers that trapping the one check to, say, Charizard Y, means you win.

If you are very concerned about dugtrio, then don't build teams such that they balance on a single dependency. And if we think that's too difficult, then get rid of the stuff that wine after one check is dead. Just maybe it's the stuff like pex and volcarona that are the real issue...

As always, reyscarface said this a million times better. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ou-suspect-process-round-2-dirt.3595351/page-11#post-7245924
 
The "dugtrio problem" seems so much worse this generation because of the continual powercreep of both stall and breakers. Walling defensive cores are so effective that removing the single breaker from the opposing team is an auto win. Conversely, there are so many balance breakers that trapping the one check to, say, Charizard Y, means you win.
You are aware that you just stated the reason why Dugtrio is overpowered, right? Kinda goes against your being "tired of reading about how dugtrio is "unhealthy"...".

Because of the increased powercreep every generation (both defensive and offensive), having a way to assuredly neutralize the enemy's powercreep while keeping yours is – at the very least – centralizing.Hence, I'm slightly confused as to why you're tired of "reading about how dugtrio is "unhealthy"..." and claiming that Dugtrio is "healthy" when it seems you're aware of one of the exact reasons it's unhealthy.

You seem adamant that Dugtrio promotes thoughtful play and team building decisions. I'd like to hear more elaboration about this. I'm not entirely sure why forcing guessing games with your opponent and why forcing Shed Shell onto random mons is healthy for the meta and teambuilding. There seems to be some reason I'm missing. I'd like it if you would provide these reasons.

The only points I could even remotely conceive defending Dugtrio is that it's "healthy for the meta" by keeping opponents on their toes and guessing what their opponent will do. Saying Dugtrio is healthy for the meta due to promoting mind games is like saying "Cyanide is healthy for the human body because it contains poison." It just doesn't add up.
 
I'm trying to move away from the pokemans, but I see things like this and it makes me log back on >:)

I'm getting really tired of reading about how dugtrio is "unhealthy" everytime someone let's their Pokemon get revenged for free. If anything, dugtrio is healthy for the meta, in both promoting thoughtful play and team building decisions.

The "dugtrio problem" seems so much worse this generation because of the continual powercreep of both stall and breakers. Walling defensive cores are so effective that removing the single breaker from the opposing team is an auto win. Conversely, there are so many balance breakers that trapping the one check to, say, Charizard Y, means you win.

If you are very concerned about dugtrio, then don't build teams such that they balance on a single dependency. And if we think that's too difficult, then get rid of the stuff that wine after one check is dead. Just maybe it's the stuff like pex and volcarona that are the real issue...

As always, reyscarface said this a million times better. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ou-suspect-process-round-2-dirt.3595351/page-11#post-7245924

As he said in that post, though, Dugtrio was indeed suspected far too early. Mega Metagross was a far more prominent issue at the time and the original suspect jumped the gun a bit by assuming something that could or could not happen in the future. The suspect ended and Dugtrio remained because, quite frankly, Dugtrio wasn't necessarily broken at the time compared to other incredibly potent threats.

Fast-forward to today and Dugtrio is on literally every serious Stall team. It's arguably more mandatory than Chansey or Toxapex because of its ability to support more niche stall threats like VinCune by removing the likes of Mega Manectric and Tapu Koko (assuming it runs Choice Scarf, ofc) while Toxapex and Chansey wouldn't necessarily benefit VinCune as much as extra hazards or Defog support to preserve its ability to PP-stall even the likes of Tapu Bulu and Tangrowth. The rise of threats like Magearna and alternative variants of Tapu Koko and the gradual decline of faster threats like the Greninjas (they're both still incredibly good, ofc, but they were a lot better before) now call for Dugtrio's incredibly polarizing niche even more than before, such that it makes its way onto more offensive teams to perform the same role it always performed; trapping and eliminating counters. It pairs incredibly well with the notorious Tyranitar+Zard-Y core - a core that was incredibly good throughout XY OU even when Zard-X was top-tier for much of it.

While its OU legality obviously won't be brought up in this thread, Dugtrio is far more polarizing than the likes of Toxapex or Volcarona, and for many reasons. It's infinitely more splashable than either and its niche is very much comparable to that of Volcarona in terms of its influence on the metagame. But even with Volcarona being so good in this meta, it's on a small decline now that it's starting to run Charti more often than Psychium-Z in order to not be revenge killed by the 101+ scarfers it fears. It struggles to beat Chansey and Toxapex - two staples of Stall - way more today than it did five months ago. Mantine is also on the rise, and Volcarona literally cannot touch Mantine with any of its standard moves and would have to forego an answer to Zygarde or Heatran if it wants to fight Mantine.

Lastly, many of the other arguments in that original post are no longer relevant. Mega Metagross isn't T-punching old checks and counters anymore since it's banned. Mega Gyarados has fallen into obscurity in favor of Zard-Y, Mega TTar, Mawile, Pinsir, and Medicham, and even Camerupt is starting to find itself more useful overall. Baton Pass isn't effortlessly 6-0ing Stall teams anymore since the entire move has been banned. Tapu Fini has declined somewhat as a defogger in favor of Mew, who struggles against the archetype. And Mismagius and Future Sight Slowking are currently unranked as their niches - especially against Stall teams nowadays - are far too specific to take seriously more often than not.

A lot of things can change in five months when a metagame isn't even a full year old. And apart from Gross and Baton Pass being banned Dugtrio's rise is one of them.

Also, part of me really wants Xurkitree to have a niche in this tier since Dugtrio is the only thing that's keeping it from seriously threatening stall teams
 
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God, the degree to which this community BITCHES about Dugtrio is unhealthy for the mental health of literally anyone that uses this site...

I'm on a road trip so I have little time to address everything; as such, everything will be brief.

Overpowered: Subjective argument I find unconvincing because the argument hinges on certain circumstances being met and I find they don't really translate as well when you're actually battling.

Uncompetitive: Blatantly disagree—I think there is nothing uncompetitive, it just narrows down the decision making process. It isn't like the endless battle clause, where it literally took competition out of the equation. It's competitive because it's still in the spirit of competition.

Requires no skill: You can take this apart a number of ways. First, let's not pretend there is truly SKILL in this game. It's a colorful version of rock, paper, scissors. Your skill is basically shown through a series of rock, paper, scissors scenarios, and the person that guesses best wins. SECOND, I think Dugtrio requires MORE "skill" to use because of its frailty. You have to make inherently riskier plays to safely get it in, and before you shout "Eject Button", that item requires you to give up a better overall item and also play the Eject Button user with "skill".

What I think the problem really is: Dugtrio takes away players' ability to make ALL of the previously possible decisions. The player base seems to loooove having maximum agency, and any attempts to strip any from them is treated with vitriol.

Bottom line: Idgaf what policy decision ends up being made, but it's so annoying to see people bitch about things that either aren't the real problem or are blatantly untrue.

I wish we could blacklist discussion on this Pokemon and instead make a specific thread on trapping where we could talk about it from a critical standpoint.
 
God, the degree to which this community BITCHES about Dugtrio is unhealthy for the mental health of literally anyone that uses this site...

I'm on a road trip so I have little time to address everything; as such, everything will be brief.

Overpowered: Subjective argument I find unconvincing because the argument hinges on certain circumstances being met and I find they don't really translate as well when you're actually battling.

Uncompetitive: Blatantly disagree—I think there is nothing uncompetitive, it just narrows down the decision making process. It isn't like the endless battle clause, where it literally took competition out of the equation. It's competitive because it's still in the spirit of competition.

Requires no skill: You can take this apart a number of ways. First, let's not pretend there is truly SKILL in this game. It's a colorful version of rock, paper, scissors. Your skill is basically shown through a series of rock, paper, scissors scenarios, and the person that guesses best wins. SECOND, I think Dugtrio requires MORE "skill" to use because of its frailty. You have to make inherently riskier plays to safely get it in, and before you shout "Eject Button", that item requires you to give up a better overall item and also play the Eject Button user with "skill".

What I think the problem really is: Dugtrio takes away players' ability to make ALL of the previously possible decisions. The player base seems to loooove having maximum agency, and any attempts to strip any from them is treated with vitriol.

Bottom line: Idgaf what policy decision ends up being made, but it's so annoying to see people bitch about things that either aren't the real problem or are blatantly untrue.

I wish we could blacklist discussion on this Pokemon and instead make a specific thread on trapping where we could talk about it from a critical standpoint.
Well, I do pray you get back from your road trip and clear things up, because I find some of your definitions somewhat debatable and unclear. To clarify:

Your argument against "overpowered" is that Dugtrio is far too situational to be considered "overpowered" and that doesn't "translate as well when you're actually battling." What do you mean by translation? Do explain, it is extremely vague.

Your argument against "uncompetitive" is that it narrows the decision making process, and that Dugtrio is still "in the spirit of competition." Again, this is too vague. What do you mean by this? And while it is true Dugtrio narrows decision making process, the same applies to the other 801 Pokémon out there. This is not exclusive to Dugtrio, and I don't understand why you're treating it like it is.

Your argument against "requires no skill" is mentioning the various downsides of using Dugtrio, such as being too fragile to be taken seriously. However, you do not mention the various rewards of using Dugtrio, namely being able to assuredly remove enemies without giving the enemy ANY fighting chance. You get a HUGE reward for so little a cost. This is a major point, but is something you conveniently forget to mention.

And yes, being unable to switch freely is a VERY big deal. There's a good reason why this is being treated with vitriol: it's such a huge deal. I'm getting the impression from your post that you think it's not such a huge deal, being able to switch. To which I say: why? Why is switching so unimportant?

And also, you mention that "Dugtrio takes away players' ability to make ALL of the previously possible decisions." What decisions? You haven't mentioned ANY decisions, instead just telling me why Dugtrio is not overpowered. I have to assume that you're talking about switching, because it's not mentioned there.

Uninformed and vague posts like this achieve the very "b####ing" you're tired of. "B####ing" implies that the post doesn't get anywhere, and – no offense intended – your post fits the bill. It is very posts like this that achieve toxicity.

I do think I was a little too harsh in my previous post (hence why I'm editing this and apologizing for jumping the gun), but you do understand your post does draw some confusion, right?
 
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Ima pull my head out of the lurk zone for a minute and log in for the first time in a while. I haven't touched Pokemon this generation because I really just hate the state of the meta so I have no informed input on dugtrio.

That said, I have to agree with Sun King's final statement: Trapping needs better discussion. It has been a controversial subject in the competitive Pokemon community for as long as I can remember and I think its time to start adressing this polarizing mechanic as an independent entity rather than have a storm of arguments over the effect of every trapping Pokemon that enters the game. What does trapping offer the game? What does it take away? Is the result in line with the goals of the smogon meta? Do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages?

Forget dugtrio. Attack the problem at the source because this isnt the last time we will be doing the trap dance.
 
Requires no skill: You can take this apart a number of ways. First, let's not pretend there is truly SKILL in this game. It's a colorful version of rock, paper, scissors. Your skill is basically shown through a series of rock, paper, scissors scenarios, and the person that guesses best wins. SECOND, I think Dugtrio requires MORE "skill" to use because of its frailty. You have to make inherently riskier plays to safely get it in, and before you shout "Eject Button", that item requires you to give up a better overall item and also play the Eject Button user with "skill".

I take issue with how much you undersell the importance of being able to switch, because this point here explains exactly why it's a massive detriment.

To go with your Rock, Paper, Scissors comparison, imagine if you weren't allowed to pick Paper, much less Paper or Scissors. Your opponent knows exactly what your narrow options are limited to, and it's easy for them to come out on top as a result of that. This isn't just down to Dugtrio removing an option in Switching, removing the target of his trapping narrows the options in the "grand" scheme of the game of "Rock, Paper, Scissors" for the game: Say Zard-Y Rock, Tyranitar is Paper, Dugtrio is Scissors. Once Dugtrio traps T-tar, you don't have "Paper," so your opponent has next to no risk of losing if they play "Rock" liberally after that.

This is still obviously oversimplifying things, but removing options to predict for in a game that is based on prediction (whether totally or in part) is a massive advantage to winning that game, and the ability to do that both by existing and in play is what makes me think Dugtrio is not a healthy presence for the game just based upon how it's meant to work.

Ima pull my head out of the lurk zone for a minute and log in for the first time in a while. I haven't touched Pokemon this generation because I really just hate the state of the meta so I have no informed input on dugtrio.

That said, I have to agree with Sun King's final statement: Trapping needs better discussion. It has been a controversial subject in the competitive Pokemon community for as long as I can remember and I think its time to start adressing this polarizing mechanic as an independent entity rather than have a storm of arguments over the effect of every trapping Pokemon that enters the game. What does trapping offer the game? What does it take away? Is the result in line with the goals of the smogon meta? Do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages?

Forget dugtrio. Attack the problem at the source because this isnt the last time we will be doing the trap dance.
Trapping is primarily a controversial topic when it has relatively little in terms of exemptions or mitigating factors. Magnezone for example is considered acceptable enough because it's restricted to trapping Steel types and thus mostly plays as part of some specific cores. Dugtrio and the old Shadow Tag mons it was easier to count the things they COULDN'T trap and/or exploit, which meant they were basically a catch all answer to the team being weak to a few mons rather than a playstyle. The latter seems like it allows teams to get away with building for overall glaring weaknesses and then just slap the trapper on as a bandage in my opinion. While I don't speak for the community at large, I just don't like the type of "easy fix" trappers can provide for threats in team building.
 
Well, I do pray you get back from your road trip and clear things up
I made it back with only two fingers missing this time...

Your argument against "overpowered" is that Dugtrio is far too situational to be considered "overpowered" and that doesn't "translate as well when you're actually battling." What do you mean by translation? Do explain, it is extremely vague.

Your argument against "uncompetitive" is that it narrows the decision making process, and that Dugtrio is still "in the spirit of competition." Again, this is too vague. What do you mean by this? And while it is true Dugtrio narrows decision making process, the same applies to the other 801 Pokémon out there. This is not exclusive to Dugtrio, and I don't understand why you're treating it like it is.

Your argument against "requires no skill" is mentioning the various downsides of using Dugtrio, such as being too fragile to be taken seriously. However, you do not mention the various rewards of using Dugtrio, namely being able to assuredly remove enemies without giving the enemy ANY fighting chance. You get a HUGE reward for so little a cost. This is a major point, but is something you conveniently forget to mention.

And yes, being unable to switch freely is a VERY big deal. There's a good reason why this is being treated with vitriol: it's such a huge deal. I'm getting the impression from your post that you think it's not such a huge deal, being able to switch. To which I say: why? Why is switching so unimportant?

And also, you mention that "Dugtrio takes away players' ability to make ALL of the previously possible decisions." What decisions? You haven't mentioned ANY decisions, instead just telling me why Dugtrio is not overpowered. I have to assume that you're talking about switching, because it's not mentioned there.

Uninformed and vague posts like this achieve the very "b####ing" you're tired of. "B####ing" implies that the post doesn't get anywhere, and – no offense intended – your post fits the bill. It is very posts like this that achieve toxicity.

I do think I was a little too harsh in my previous post (hence why I'm editing this and apologizing for jumping the gun), but you do understand your post does draw some confusion, right?

I'm gonna go through all of this in detail because I think you made an excellent post that leads to productive conversation. I didn't see your previous iteration of the post, but I appreciate you fixing it to reflect a more respectful stance. I think that's in short supply on these forums, so good on you for policing yourself.

Your argument against "overpowered" is that Dugtrio is far too situational to be considered "overpowered" and that doesn't "translate as well when you're actually battling." What do you mean by translation? Do explain, it is extremely vague.
Okay starting off; yes, my apologies (and I may echo this apology a few times) for vagueness. I'm unconvinced by the argument that DUGTRIO is overpowered (and I guess maybe the emphasis on the Pokemon doesn't matter because transitively it sort of has to be OP if Arena Trap is OP, but I would argue the ability and the Pokemon should be looked at separately). When I talk about Dugtrio's brokenness being situational, I'm referring to the argument that people use when they're essentially assuming Dugtrio is at 100% against whatever the hell target it is--meaning it's in for free without having to take into consideration the tremendous risk that switching it in carries. Dugtrio is the very definition of high-risk, high-reward; it dies to essentially one hit from nearly all of its targets, meaning you have to take a huge risk in hard switching it in. Are there things mitigating this risk? Yes, but they too require a great deal of risk too--Eject Button comes with a heavy opportunity cost and a very high risk of accidentally consuming the item with a missed prediction; U-Turn/Volt Switch require you to predict a switch, meaning it once again comes down to an inherently riskier play than running an outright counter/more effective check to "X" Pokemon. Do I think it has a tremendous payoff? Yes! Dugtrio is devastating when it's able to do its job, but the community at large overstates its ability to actually do its job. Let's not forget that the only ways Dugtrio is safely in are thus: a high risk is rewarded, or it is coming in off the revenge--a situation which means you are oftentimes (not always in the case of certain sacrifices, but I would argue sacrifices can still be disadvantageous in the long run) at a disadvantage because you are now a Pokemon down. There is this argument that I see all the time that Dugtrio forces the opposing play to "Shit their britches constantly", but that's also true for the Dugtrio user. Mispredict a switch? Fuck, my Zard-Y is now hard countered for the duration of the game because Dugtrio got bopped. It gets blown out of proportion, and I think there is tremendous bias in our community.

Your argument against "uncompetitive" is that it narrows the decision making process, and that Dugtrio is still "in the spirit of competition." Again, this is too vague. What do you mean by this? And while it is true Dugtrio narrows decision making process, the same applies to the other 801 Pokémon out there. This is not exclusive to Dugtrio, and I don't understand why you're treating it like it is.
Okay, allow me to flesh out what I mean. Competition is two people fighting for the same prize. In a competitive situation, being competitive is using something that BEST accomplishes your goal of beating your opponent to that prize. Being uncompetitive, however, is the opposite; it's doing things that actively undermine the competition itself. Things like forcing endless battles, SwagPlay, OHKO or Evasion-boosting moves--these are all relying on something OTHER than the "Spirit" of competition because they rely on inherently unreliable tactics or completely remove competition from the equation. I see nothing in Dugtrio/Arena trap that REMOVES a competitive element. I see something that removes agency from one player. Your point about it being extendable to virtually all Pokemon is right! Anti-competitive elements are really few and far between. I would argue even Baton Pass was competitive; it was just mindless and largely removed prediction from the equation, meaning it was almost like playing a completely separate game from the rest of the player base.

Your argument against "requires no skill" is mentioning the various downsides of using Dugtrio, such as being too fragile to be taken seriously. However, you do not mention the various rewards of using Dugtrio, namely being able to assuredly remove enemies without giving the enemy ANY fighting chance. You get a HUGE reward for so little a cost. This is a major point, but is something you conveniently forget to mention.
I addressed this earlier in this post, but yes, Dugtrio has high rewards when utilized effectively. My argument is that people are overlooking these high costs to using Dugtrio. It forces BOTH players to very carefully weigh their options. At the end of the day, Pokemon really is a game of rock, paper, scissors, and ultimately someone DOES have to come out victorious. People overlook the fact that the cost of using--and mispredicting with--Dugtrio is an entire teamslot. It's like playing one Pokemon down for the entire game. If you don't play carefully, you will be at a significant disadvantage. There's an opportunity cost of essentially having a less rewarding but longer lasting check to the things Dugtrio tries to trap and KO. I didn't conveniently forget to mention the pros of Dugtrio; it was implied that people reading this post were well aware of them, considering I'm saying "Hey guys, it's not all roses and butterflies for Dugtrio users too."

And yes, being unable to switch freely is a VERY big deal. There's a good reason why this is being treated with vitriol: it's such a huge deal. I'm getting the impression from your post that you think it's not such a huge deal, being able to switch. To which I say: why? Why is switching so unimportant?

And also, you mention that "Dugtrio takes away players' ability to make ALL of the previously possible decisions." What decisions? You haven't mentioned ANY decisions, instead just telling me why Dugtrio is not overpowered. I have to assume that you're talking about switching, because it's not mentioned there.
I'm not arguing that Arena Trap is not a significantly powerful ability at all. When I'm talking about removing agency, removing decisions, I am referring to removing switching from the equation. Yes, it is a very big deal, which is why I understand why the community flips out over it. Do I think it's the most broken thing ever? Not at all. I think it's interesting because it adds a ~spicy~ element to games with Dugtrio. It adds a bigger element of risk, which I guess maybe makes me more of an adrenaline junkie than a lot of the users (?), but I honestly welcome this added level of severity to particular plays in a game. The way I see it is this: If Dugtrio is in an advantageous position, its user gets to dictate switch-ins; if it's dead, its user is now down a mon and seriously disadvantaged; if Dugtrio is alive and waiting in the rear, both players are still at neutral. Yes, the Duggy user can decide when to switch it in, but also yes, the opponent can choose to throw out an attack and KO it (seriously, it dies to like almost everything...). There's this tremendous rhetoric that the Dugtrio user controls the pace of everything, but that's misleading; it's only true if the user correctly predicted (rock over scissors).

BOTTOM LINE: I do not buy in to the rhetoric that Dugtrio is this overpowered, cancerous, uncompetitive glitch in the meta game. I think that rhetoric is hawkish. I do still believe Arena Trap/Magnet Pull deserves its own thread in which we can actually talk respectfully about whether or not we want trapping in our meta game. I personally don't mind the added component to our meta game, but I would like to see people at least realize that Dugtrio is not as one sided as people make it out to be.
 
I made it back with only two fingers missing this time...



I'm gonna go through all of this in detail because I think you made an excellent post that leads to productive conversation. I didn't see your previous iteration of the post, but I appreciate you fixing it to reflect a more respectful stance. I think that's in short supply on these forums, so good on you for policing yourself.


Okay starting off; yes, my apologies (and I may echo this apology a few times) for vagueness. I'm unconvinced by the argument that DUGTRIO is overpowered (and I guess maybe the emphasis on the Pokemon doesn't matter because transitively it sort of has to be OP if Arena Trap is OP, but I would argue the ability and the Pokemon should be looked at separately). When I talk about Dugtrio's brokenness being situational, I'm referring to the argument that people use when they're essentially assuming Dugtrio is at 100% against whatever the hell target it is--meaning it's in for free without having to take into consideration the tremendous risk that switching it in carries. Dugtrio is the very definition of high-risk, high-reward; it dies to essentially one hit from nearly all of its targets, meaning you have to take a huge risk in hard switching it in. Are there things mitigating this risk? Yes, but they too require a great deal of risk too--Eject Button comes with a heavy opportunity cost and a very high risk of accidentally consuming the item with a missed prediction; U-Turn/Volt Switch require you to predict a switch, meaning it once again comes down to an inherently riskier play than running an outright counter/more effective check to "X" Pokemon. Do I think it has a tremendous payoff? Yes! Dugtrio is devastating when it's able to do its job, but the community at large overstates its ability to actually do its job. Let's not forget that the only ways Dugtrio is safely in are thus: a high risk is rewarded, or it is coming in off the revenge--a situation which means you are oftentimes (not always in the case of certain sacrifices, but I would argue sacrifices can still be disadvantageous in the long run) at a disadvantage because you are now a Pokemon down. There is this argument that I see all the time that Dugtrio forces the opposing play to "Shit their britches constantly", but that's also true for the Dugtrio user. Mispredict a switch? Fuck, my Zard-Y is now hard countered for the duration of the game because Dugtrio got bopped. It gets blown out of proportion, and I think there is tremendous bias in our community.


Okay, allow me to flesh out what I mean. Competition is two people fighting for the same prize. In a competitive situation, being competitive is using something that BEST accomplishes your goal of beating your opponent to that prize. Being uncompetitive, however, is the opposite; it's doing things that actively undermine the competition itself. Things like forcing endless battles, SwagPlay, OHKO or Evasion-boosting moves--these are all relying on something OTHER than the "Spirit" of competition because they rely on inherently unreliable tactics or completely remove competition from the equation. I see nothing in Dugtrio/Arena trap that REMOVES a competitive element. I see something that removes agency from one player. Your point about it being extendable to virtually all Pokemon is right! Anti-competitive elements are really few and far between. I would argue even Baton Pass was competitive; it was just mindless and largely removed prediction from the equation, meaning it was almost like playing a completely separate game from the rest of the player base.


I addressed this earlier in this post, but yes, Dugtrio has high rewards when utilized effectively. My argument is that people are overlooking these high costs to using Dugtrio. It forces BOTH players to very carefully weigh their options. At the end of the day, Pokemon really is a game of rock, paper, scissors, and ultimately someone DOES have to come out victorious. People overlook the fact that the cost of using--and mispredicting with--Dugtrio is an entire teamslot. It's like playing one Pokemon down for the entire game. If you don't play carefully, you will be at a significant disadvantage. There's an opportunity cost of essentially having a less rewarding but longer lasting check to the things Dugtrio tries to trap and KO. I didn't conveniently forget to mention the pros of Dugtrio; it was implied that people reading this post were well aware of them, considering I'm saying "Hey guys, it's not all roses and butterflies for Dugtrio users too."


I'm not arguing that Arena Trap is not a significantly powerful ability at all. When I'm talking about removing agency, removing decisions, I am referring to removing switching from the equation. Yes, it is a very big deal, which is why I understand why the community flips out over it. Do I think it's the most broken thing ever? Not at all. I think it's interesting because it adds a ~spicy~ element to games with Dugtrio. It adds a bigger element of risk, which I guess maybe makes me more of an adrenaline junkie than a lot of the users (?), but I honestly welcome this added level of severity to particular plays in a game. The way I see it is this: If Dugtrio is in an advantageous position, its user gets to dictate switch-ins; if it's dead, its user is now down a mon and seriously disadvantaged; if Dugtrio is alive and waiting in the rear, both players are still at neutral. Yes, the Duggy user can decide when to switch it in, but also yes, the opponent can choose to throw out an attack and KO it (seriously, it dies to like almost everything...). There's this tremendous rhetoric that the Dugtrio user controls the pace of everything, but that's misleading; it's only true if the user correctly predicted (rock over scissors).

BOTTOM LINE: I do not buy in to the rhetoric that Dugtrio is this overpowered, cancerous, uncompetitive glitch in the meta game. I think that rhetoric is hawkish. I do still believe Arena Trap/Magnet Pull deserves its own thread in which we can actually talk respectfully about whether or not we want trapping in our meta game. I personally don't mind the added component to our meta game, but I would like to see people at least realize that Dugtrio is not as one sided as people make it out to be.
All of this is true. From what I could understand with your post, in a nutshell (it was a very long post), you seem tired of people over-exaggerating Dugtrio's effectiveness, saying the Dugtrio user doesn't dictate the flow 100%. And you're not wrong, its effectiveness has been exaggerated to some extent. I can certainly see that.

Thus, I feel I should state WHY exactly many people think Dugtrio is bad for the meta. Dramatics aside, people just think that introducing elements of trapping and the associated mind games result in an unpleasant experience for both sides – the victim constantly looks over their shoulder, while the user is constantly trying to force victims to their will. Both times, it intensifies the guessing games on both by increasing the magnitude of the result – the victim is ASSURED the loss of a mon, while the user either loses Dugtrio or loses momentum.

In a nutshell, mindgames are intensified, with a particularly unpleasant side effect for the victim. I feel little need to elaborate exactly WHICH mindgames, as previous posts did an excellent job stating them.
 
You overlook a very important point for Dugtrio. It can come in for free after either slow pivots or kills.
So, if, for example, you get a prediction right and kill an opposing pokemon with your Heatran - or if the opponent sacks a low-HP mon to your Heatran, Dugtrio can come in for free and kill that Heatran without even having to risk losing its focus sash. This means: Without any skill, the opponent can turn a disadvantageous situation against you by punishing you for getting a prediction right and netting a kill by revenge-killing your Heatran. Such a trade often isn't even altough both sides lose one mon - often you needed your now dead Heatran to check another opposing mon, or, much simpler, the opposing mon you killed was at very low health and your Heatran at full health.


I also remembered the days baton pass was still a thing. When Heracross-Mega got released, I added a Flyinium Z Aerial Ace Dugtrio to my team to specificially remove opposing Heracrosses, as they could kill Scolipede through its sub. I sacced the least important pokemon for the specific team matchup against Heracross to get Dugtrio in and kill it - without any risk or skill.
 
That being said, I think that Dugtrio is currently unhealthy for this metagame and it should go. First of all, let's rid ourselves of the myth that Dugtrio requires no skill. It does require some skill to use. And it's easily punishable too - one wrong move and you're a mon down. That being said, I think the current state of the OU meta makes it unhealthy. There are tons and tons of mons that oftentimes only need one mon of the opposing team out in order to just straight up win. Why? Because we have to prep for so much, that fitting in multiple checks can be too hard sometimes. By having Dugtrio take out that one check, it becomes impossible to win. A well-played dugtrio can come in and end up pretty much winning the match in the early-game or mid-game when otherwise said match would have been decided by more skillful late game play. Dugtrio does require skill, but not as much as what would be otherwise.

That being said, people tend to exaggerate it. Dug trio only gets rid of one mon, and oftentimes, you're trading two for it. This forces you to play skillfully. What I'm saying is that while this is true, oftentimes those two sacks are worth it if the other 4 steamroll the rest of the other mons.

I'll write more later.
 
Okay...on a different note than ranting about Dugtrio...

The Mega Stones for both Lati twins, Altaria, and Ampharos were released today. Any thoughts on how they might work in the meta?
 
I'll just copy paste my post from the Mega Evo thread regarding Latiasite.

I'm pretty sure it's an unanimous thought that Latiasite is going to be the only significant player out of these newly-released mega stones. I could see Altarianite and even Amphraosite having small niches here and there, but nothing to write home about. Having a mon like Latiasite is nice as it gives balance teams yet another sturdy Mega Charizard Y switchin (most notably, one that isn't trapped by Dugtrio!) and a solid set-up sweeper thanks to Calm Mind. I think this CM set will be the most dependable when the mega stones are enabled on SD:

Latias-Mega (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover

You could adjust the EVs to be whatever you want, honestly. This one is meant to outpace non-Scarf Garchomp and invest the rest in to physical bulk. You could adjust this to simply outpace Zardy, Jolly Lando-T, Banded Zygarde, or just simply be max speed to tie with Latios and outpace Specs Keldeo depending on your team structure. BoltBeam coverage is a tried and true combination that hits the most things for SE damage in the meta, as can be seen in Double Dance Magearna. Its solid bulk and access to Recover/Roost give it plenty of set up opportunities when its checks have been dealt with. You could also roll with a Stored Power + Surf set or even a mono-attacking Stored Power + Refresh set if you wanted to, but those require much more set up and support, and aren't as consistent.

Latiasite will still have to deal with the many issues in the meta such as (Ash) Greninja, (Mega) Tyranitar, Toxic Heatran, Magearna, Tapu Lele, etc, which means I don't see this mega being a top tier pick, but it has potential imo
 
Latiasite has a solid niche in that it beats every variant of the Zard Y + Dugtrio core in a single slot (the only other competition is Mantine) and it's a decent block to Koko, Keldeo, rain in general and Zapdos. But it loses to pretty much everything else in the A ranks.

Could see it fitting in B-tier though.
 
Latiasite has a solid niche in that it beats every variant of the Zard Y + Dugtrio core in a single slot (the only other competition is Mantine) and it's a decent block to Koko, Keldeo, rain in general and Zapdos. But it loses to pretty much everything else in the A ranks.

Could see it fitting in B-tier though.
That core is often complemented by Banded Ttar, so no, it's not that effective against ZardY teams. I think Latias will end up being pushed aside in favor of significantly less niche choices. We might see a hipster stall team with it, but I'm not optimistic.
 
Latiasite has a solid niche in that it beats every variant of the Zard Y + Dugtrio core in a single slot (the only other competition is Mantine) and it's a decent block to Koko, Keldeo, rain in general and Zapdos. But it loses to pretty much everything else in the A ranks.

Could see it fitting in B-tier though.
Charizard Y Dugtrio cores are usually paired with Tyranitar (see jam's team and that other mantine lele ladder team) so it isn't exactly a safe answer. Additionally, if Tyranitar wasn't that common alongside Zard Dug, regular Latias could still do a good job at beating that core without using the mega slot. Sorry for the one-liner just wanted to point these things out real quick
 
Any thoughts on Mega Altaira? It can swallow a lot of hits of many top tiers mons, but with dozens of Steel-types with high rank, I don't think it will be that great :/
 
Latiosite looking hella dank, Draco + EQ allowing it to (you probably want some chip damage first unless you want to put heavy attack investment, I'm probably just going timid) handle TTar + Zard Y, not passive as hell and basically functions like Soul Dew Latios with a bit better bulk to help vs stuff like Greninja and such.

I'm going to have fun with him lol.
 
Okay...on a different note than ranting about Dugtrio...

The Mega Stones for both Lati twins, Altaria, and Ampharos were released today. Any thoughts on how they might work in the meta?


I'm gonna quote my old post from the Mega Evo thread, with naturally some edits:
No, it's just going to flat-out suck. The pixilate nerf hurt, yes, but what really does is the rise of steels and fairies. Most steels wall this thing to hell and back - physical sets are laughed at by Celesteela, Ferro and Scizor-Mega. Special sets with Fire Blast get walled by Heatran and AV Magearna and Sp Def Celesteela check it anyways:
AV Magearna:
164+ SpA Altaria-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 128-152 (35.2 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Altaria-Mega: 446-528 (125.9 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Sp Def. Celesteela:
164+ SpA Altaria-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 158-186 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 240-284 (67.7 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Did I forget about the Tapus? They all beat it. Lele and Koko ofc click moonblast and d-gleam (though koko does have HP Ice and it can U-Turn), respectively. Fini also clicks moonblast, and as for Bulu,
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 186-219 (63.9 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
One can figure from this that Wood Hammer is a clean OHKO.

Literally nothing has changed for it to be better this generation. Not many Dragons roam the realm of OU for it to beat, and Darks and Fighting mons have also been left behind. Honestly 110 unboosted base attk and sp atk really sucks this generation. DD sets have a terrible defensive typing and +1 80 is mediocre and leaves it wide open for most Scarfers to revenge. Special attacking sets have to deal with being walled by Heatran and not really beating Magearna or Celesteela. Finally, defensive sets have a terrible defensive typing. So, tl;dr it has a terrible typing, it can't beat most steels, the Tapus destroy it and the power creep has left it in the dust. Altaria-Mega is just going to suck this generation.
aaaaand before I could even finish I got sniped. :(

That being said, I think a defensive role is best for it. As I've said, it's really not very strong, and it has too many issues with steels and fairies, not to mention DD's mediocre speed. Defensively, it can beat Fires but can't really do much back outside of Toxic, and dragons, which are beginning to rise again with Latios and Latias getting more usage. In particular, it hard walls Zard Y without HP Ice. The resistance to Water is also nice vs Ash Gren and Keldeo. 75/110/105 is imo decent enough bulk to fill this all. I think a good set would be this:

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVS: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Calm Nature
- Roost
- Heal Bell
- Hyper Voice
- Toxic / Haze

Heal Bell provides cleric support, a niche appreciated by balance. Roost is obvious, Hyper Voice is some form of offense. Toxic lets it punish Fires, whereas Haze lets it do better vs Volcarona at the expense of Zard Y.

It's not very good - my quoted post notes out multiple flaws with its many type weaknesses - but I think that defensively this thing has a good niche.

However, outside of defense, it's not good. DD is really, really bad, as I've said. Specially Offensive sets don't have much over the other Fairies (lele and koko) or Latios. B rank at highest, C+ at lowest.

Also, Mega Latias could have a niche as a Defogger on bulky offense. The bulk is actually very good, and it's pretty reliable at defogging too:

Latias @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVS: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe (i don't know if this is a good spread on it)
Timid Nature
- Defog
- Recover
- Draco Meteor
- HP Fire

This lets it defog while having a good offensive presence to deter hazard setters like Greninja, Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, and Ferrothorn from getting up hazards again. I didn't slash psychic stab because it needs HP Fire for Ferro and Draco hits the other threats much harder. If you want Psychic STAB, use Psychic over Psyshock because what it needs to hit tends to be better on the physical side. It's fast, bulky and moderately powerful. I think this is a good defogger, and could find itself in B+ for it, maybe.

On a final note, Ampharosite and Latiosite are both absolute trash and should never even be considered. Mega Latios isn't half as good as regular, with Latios being stronger with a LO or faster with a Scarf. Both of those are worth it over a marginal increase in bulk. Ampharos is too slow, doesn't have good dragon STAB, and not bulky enough to deal with its bad defensive typing. Don't use it, please. Also, Mawile-Mega is much better on Trick Room.
 
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So I've found that Marowak is an excellent stallbreaker. It's one of the only ones that can't be trapped by Dugtrio. This is my set

Marowak
Thick Club
Adamant 252 Attack 216 Speed 40 HP
Shadow Bone
Swords Dance
Flare Blitz
Brick Break

The speed is enough to outspeed uninvested Skarmory. Brick Break is for Chansey and Tyranitar.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-615118067

In this replay when the Marowak gets to +2 the battle is over. All my opponent could do is force it out with Dugtrio but that gives a free switch into Landorus every time. The only things stall can really run to beat it are Hippowdon and Quagsire and those have to worry about defense drops from shadow bone.
 
So I've found that Marowak is an excellent stallbreaker. It's one of the only ones that can't be trapped by Dugtrio. This is my set

Marowak
Thick Club
Adamant 252 Attack 216 Speed 40 HP
Shadow Bone
Swords Dance
Flare Blitz
Brick Break

The speed is enough to outspeed uninvested Skarmory. Brick Break is for Chansey and Tyranitar.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-615118067

In this replay when the Marowak gets to +2 the battle is over. All my opponent could do is force it out with Dugtrio but that gives a free switch into Landorus every time. The only things stall can really run to beat it are Hippowdon and Quagsire and those have to worry about defense drops from shadow bone.

The standard set already does this way better.

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Bone
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake / Bonemerang

the extra 40 HP evs i don't think make a huge difference and you never want to lose a speed tie to an opposing marowak
 
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