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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v4

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Photofluid said:
145 base attack + 100 base power Earthquake > 150 base attack + 80 base power Shadow Ball, I mean yeah 150 attack is amazing can you not forget AS's highest power move sits at 80 base power?

With Intimitate, max def Land-T's physical effective defense sits at 382*306*1.5 = 175338, while max def/sped Aegislash PED/SED sits at 324*438 = 141912

Quite literally hits and tanks better at the same time, Intimitate has its limit but arguably far less clunky to use than Stance Change
Click to expand...
That... is a pretty terrible and inaccurate way of calculating defense and such. I don't even know why you're comparing Lando-T and Aegislash, they don't even do the same things.
I wasn't around during the Aegislash suspect, but I've heard a lot about it and what I can gather is this: Aegislash could force 50-50s against opposing physical attackers, and turn the game into a bunch of annoying mind games. It also had a variety of sets, so you can never really know what it's gonna run. Plus, it has a great typing that allows it to come in fairly easily on Fairies and Psychics.
In conclusion, please do your research about Aegislash before posting. Thanks!
Edit: Also wow 100th post
 
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For Fucks sake stop talking about this stupid " Lando is inheritly broken because it's more versatile and hits harder than Aegislash Arguement".
Just because a less informed user made a post saying that lando is broken, it doesn't mean it should cause such a massive debate. Apologies for mini-modding but it's ridiculous.

Anyways, in order for this not to be sniped by Gary ily bby plz don't snipe, I'd like to discuss two Pokemon that I feel are currently great in the meta - Mega Scizor and Tapu Lele.

(The following will be an incredibly brief overview of my opinions)
These two 'mons both appreciated the rise of Mega Diancie, as it allowed both to consistently sweep due to the influx of Diancie Checks that have emerged and the former to check said mon, as well as break some balance and bulky offence builds.

However, both suffer from the same trends that have been caused via the rise of Diancie and the ongoing suspect. Both are heavily affected by the rise of steels, while the former is also affected by the decline in popularity of archetypes such as veil, webs and hyper offence in general.

Point is, I'm conflicted about these two mons, especially since they are both profiting and losing in the current meta and I'd like some help to determine my viewpoint on the two. (Apologies for the shorter post, I'm using mobile)
 
I'm really glad to see that Mega Mawile and Greninja isn't banned to Ubers in this Gen. Two of my favorite pokemons. But I don't understand why they aren't banned anymore. Anyone who knows?
 
Marcus Lindgren said:
I'm really glad to see that Mega Mawile and Greninja isn't banned to Ubers in this Gen. Two of my favorite pokemons. But I don't understand why they aren't banned anymore. Anyone who knows?
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The power level overall has gone up, meaning that there's a lot more stuff that can deal with these mons compared to before. Correspondigly, there's also more broken stuff that would be banned before them.
 
Marcus Lindgren said:
I'm really glad to see that Mega Mawile and Greninja isn't banned to Ubers in this Gen. Two of my favorite pokemons. But I don't understand why they aren't banned anymore. Anyone who knows?
Click to expand...

Basically there are more checks to each. Magearna and Celesteela, as well as things like the rise of tangrowth this gen, have kept greninja in check.

Mawile is easily one of the best megas right now. Once a couple other things get banned, i find it very possible maw could be too. But right now, it has just enough going against to make it tolerable. Sucker punch nerf (80bp -> 70bp) had an actual effect, as there are OHKOs it can no longer get with +2 sucker punch (which was the busted part about it in oras). The meta is very bulky, and focuses on fire and steel types moreso than last gen (where fighting and dark types ruled), which is tougher for maw.
Overall the meta is just in a place where it can handle mmaw. It could and probly will change eventually.

But yeah use it while you can haha it's an incredible mon and a lot of fun.
 
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Am I free to discuss the current suspect ladder? Someone in the questions thread said it was fine. If not, please don't go ham. I just wanted discuss the ladder's trends (and I'm so done with this Aegislash vs. Lando talk).

I'd like to comment on trends and ask about a few things:

  • From what the 1300+ games I've observed, there's been a definite upswing in Victini usage. The star (or should I say Victory Star?) set of choice seems to be a Z+Celebrate + Stored Power to nuke everything that doesn't resist Psychic. Many teams atm don't seem very prepared for it as the countermeasures for it and QD Volcarona aren't as overlapping as one would think, especially since Victini boosts all its stats, can eat a SR once if it really has too (should probably have RS or Defog to be safe though), and has moderate physical bulk. The popular team setup to use seems to be Victini + Tapu Lele + Mega Gyarados + Excadrill + Kartana + Mimikyu. Even Joey ran into it in his recent live. Here's an example of it in action for those not familiar:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-627232690

What's more interesting though is that Z-Celebrate + Stored Power isn't the only set/moves being run. Victini's other options like Blue Flare, V-Create, Scarf U-Turn, and Glaciate are still making the rounds as seen here:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629209585
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629242179
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629252573

Power Creep still keeps it down, but the little Fire pixie may slowly be finding its place in the metagame.
  • Naturally, other hampered mons like Hoopa enjoy its abscene and Heatran is proving even better than before.
  • As many would expect, the lack of Dugtrio has weakened Stall, but it still seems to be thriving. Without Dugtrio to delete specific threats easily, Stall teams are now resorting to adding other fat/balanced mons to make the overall team stronger like Quagsire, Pyukumuku, and Tornadus T or more limited trappers like Weavile. Stall is definitely weakened but it doesn't seem to be dying off without Duggy like many predicted at the beginning of the gen. Though that can likely be attributed to the metagame not being as borked with stuff like Pheromosa and Mega-Gross having been kicked to the Ubers curb a while ago. Examples of suspect test stall builds:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629205639
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629215366
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-628980584
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629251192

And of course, Stall vs. Stall is as hellish as ever.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629209133

  • Speaking of stall, everyone's favorite pink blob Chansey very much appreciates Dugtrio no longer trapping. Without Dugtrio, Chansey seems to be having a much easier time fitting into balance teams and keeping them from getting steamrolled by the game's most potent special attackers. I am also curious. How good is Chansey with Aurora Veil? I was thinking of toying with a balanced offensive team that her and A-Ninetails working together. I know Chansey can kinda drain your momentum but I'd love to see her role on balance teams like this expand:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629265188
  • The popular megas right now seem to be Alakazam, Medicham, Lopunny, and Mawile. Mawile in particular seems to appreciate the lack of Dugtrio even with Fire types also benefiting. Mega Charizard X and Mega Tyranitar also seem to be profitting. Although I've also been seeing an usually high number of Mega Latios sets, even in the +1300 matches. Could someone explain?
  • Magearna was already good but without Dugtrio in the ladder it's managed to get even better.
  • The potential for even further applications of Terrain seeds definitely seems to be there. Stupid me forgot to save the replay but I got to see make a Reuniclus make surprising good use of Grassy Seed to patch its mediocre Defense along with Calm Mind and Recover. With Psyshock and Focus Blast as its offensive moves, the opponent was forced to pivot a lot with U-Turn to break it which exposed him to the other mons. I hope to see more seed usage beyond Hawlucha with time.
  • Overall I am seeing a lot of variety in the high level suspect ladder matches. I am seeing a wide variety of things Tornadus, Nihilego, Volcanion, Alolan-Muk, Weavile, Decidueye, Victini, Azelf, Azumarill, Pyukumuku, Hoopa, and more. I definitely like the suspect ladder's high level matches more than the regular one so far.
 
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TimG57867 said:
Am I free to discuss the current suspect ladder? Someone in the questions thread said it was fine. If not, please don't go ham. I just wanted discuss the ladder's trends (and I'm so done with this Aegislash vs. Lando talk).

I'd like to comment on trends and ask about a few things:

  • From what the 1300+ games I've observed, there's been a definite upswing in Victini usage. The star (or should I say Victory Star?) set of choice seems to be a Z+Celebrate + Stored Power to nuke everything that doesn't resist Psychic. Many teams atm don't seem very prepared for it as the countermeasures for it and QD Volcarona aren't as overlapping as one would think, especially since Victini boosts all its stats, can eat a SR once if it really has too (should probably have RS or Defog to be safe though), and has moderate physical bulk. The popular team setup to use seems to be Victini + Tapu Lele + Mega Gyarados + Excadrill + Kartana + Mimikyu. Even Joey ran into it in his recent live. Here's an example of it in action for those not familiar:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-627232690

What's more interesting though is that Z-Celebrate + Stored Power isn't the only set/moves being run. Victini's other options like Blue Flare, V-Create, Scarf U-Turn, and Glaciate are still making the rounds as seen here:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629209585
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629242179
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629252573

Power Creep still keeps it down, but the little Fire pixie may slowly be finding its place in the metagame.
  • Naturally, other hampered mons like Hoopa enjoy its abscene and Heatran is proving even better than before.
  • As many would expect, the lack of Dugtrio has weakened Stall, but it still seems to be thriving. Without Dugtrio to delete specific threats easily, Stall teams are now resorting to adding other fat/balanced mons to make the overall team stronger like Quagsire, Pyukumuku, and Tornadus T or more limited trappers like Weavile. Stall is definitely weakened but it doesn't seem to be dying off without Duggy like many predicted at the beginning of the gen. Though that can likely be attributed to the metagame not being as borked with stuff like Pheromosa and Mega-Gross having been kicked to the Ubers curb a while ago. Examples of suspect test stall builds:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629205639
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629215366
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-628980584
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629251192

And of course, Stall vs. Stall is as hellish as ever.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629209133

  • Speaking of stall, everyone's favorite pink blob Chansey very much appreciates Dugtrio no longer trapping. Without Dugtrio, Chansey seems to be having a much easier time fitting into balance teams and keeping them from getting steamrolled by the game's most potent special attackers. I am also curious. How good is Chansey with Aurora Veil? I was thinking of toying with a balanced offensive team that her and A-Ninetails working together. I know Chansey can kinda drain your momentum but I'd love to see her role on balance teams like this expand:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629265188
  • The popular megas right now seem to be Alakazam, Medicham, Lopunny, and Mawile. Mawile in particular seems to appreciate the lack of Dugtrio even with Fire types also benefiting. Mega Charizard X and Mega Tyranitar also seem to be profitting. Although I've also been seeing an usually high number of Mega Latios sets, even in the +1300 matches. Could someone explain?
  • Magearna was already good but without Dugtrio in the ladder it's managed to get even better.
  • The potential for even further applications of Terrain seeds definitely seems to be there. Stupid me forgot to save the replay but I got to see make a Reuniclus make surprising good use of Grassy Seed to patch its mediocre Defense along with Calm Mind and Recover. With Psyshock and Focus Blast as its offensive moves, the opponent was forced to pivot a lot with U-Turn to break it which exposed him to the other mons. I hope to see more seed usage beyond Hawlucha with time.
  • Overall I am seeing a lot of variety in the high level suspect ladder matches. I am seeing a wide variety of things Tornadus, Nihilego, Volcanion, Alolan-Muk, Weavile, Decidueye, Victini, Azelf, Azumarill, Pyukumuku, Hoopa, and more. I definitely like the suspect ladder's high level matches more than the regular one so far.
Click to expand...
Wait what is Decidueye's role in OU
 
Yahooboo said:
It has a trapping move, which now the best trapper is gone, might be slightly more useful. I still have doubts, but I'd say it sort of got better.
Click to expand...
More specifically, it has a strong, STAB trapping move that is super-effective against the only type fully immune to trapping. That seems like it would be quite useful.
 
TimG57867 said:
Am I free to discuss the current suspect ladder? Someone in the questions thread said it was fine. If not, please don't go ham. I just wanted discuss the ladder's trends (and I'm so done with this Aegislash vs. Lando talk).

I'd like to comment on trends and ask about a few things:

  • From what the 1300+ games I've observed, there's been a definite upswing in Victini usage. The star (or should I say Victory Star?) set of choice seems to be a Z+Celebrate + Stored Power to nuke everything that doesn't resist Psychic. Many teams atm don't seem very prepared for it as the countermeasures for it and QD Volcarona aren't as overlapping as one would think, especially since Victini boosts all its stats, can eat a SR once if it really has too (should probably have RS or Defog to be safe though), and has moderate physical bulk. The popular team setup to use seems to be Victini + Tapu Lele + Mega Gyarados + Excadrill + Kartana + Mimikyu. Even Joey ran into it in his recent live. Here's an example of it in action for those not familiar:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-627232690

What's more interesting though is that Z-Celebrate + Stored Power isn't the only set/moves being run. Victini's other options like Blue Flare, V-Create, Scarf U-Turn, and Glaciate are still making the rounds as seen here:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629209585
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629242179
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629252573

Power Creep still keeps it down, but the little Fire pixie may slowly be finding its place in the metagame.
  • Naturally, other hampered mons like Hoopa enjoy its abscene and Heatran is proving even better than before.
  • As many would expect, the lack of Dugtrio has weakened Stall, but it still seems to be thriving. Without Dugtrio to delete specific threats easily, Stall teams are now resorting to adding other fat/balanced mons to make the overall team stronger like Quagsire, Pyukumuku, and Tornadus T or more limited trappers like Weavile. Stall is definitely weakened but it doesn't seem to be dying off without Duggy like many predicted at the beginning of the gen. Though that can likely be attributed to the metagame not being as borked with stuff like Pheromosa and Mega-Gross having been kicked to the Ubers curb a while ago. Examples of suspect test stall builds:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629205639
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629215366
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-628980584
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629251192

And of course, Stall vs. Stall is as hellish as ever.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629209133

  • Speaking of stall, everyone's favorite pink blob Chansey very much appreciates Dugtrio no longer trapping. Without Dugtrio, Chansey seems to be having a much easier time fitting into balance teams and keeping them from getting steamrolled by the game's most potent special attackers. I am also curious. How good is Chansey with Aurora Veil? I was thinking of toying with a balanced offensive team that her and A-Ninetails working together. I know Chansey can kinda drain your momentum but I'd love to see her role on balance teams like this expand:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-629265188
  • The popular megas right now seem to be Alakazam, Medicham, Lopunny, and Mawile. Mawile in particular seems to appreciate the lack of Dugtrio even with Fire types also benefiting. Mega Charizard X and Mega Tyranitar also seem to be profitting. Although I've also been seeing an usually high number of Mega Latios sets, even in the +1300 matches. Could someone explain?
  • Magearna was already good but without Dugtrio in the ladder it's managed to get even better.
  • The potential for even further applications of Terrain seeds definitely seems to be there. Stupid me forgot to save the replay but I got to see make a Reuniclus make surprising good use of Grassy Seed to patch its mediocre Defense along with Calm Mind and Recover. With Psyshock and Focus Blast as its offensive moves, the opponent was forced to pivot a lot with U-Turn to break it which exposed him to the other mons. I hope to see more seed usage beyond Hawlucha with time.
  • Overall I am seeing a lot of variety in the high level suspect ladder matches. I am seeing a wide variety of things Tornadus, Nihilego, Volcanion, Alolan-Muk, Weavile, Decidueye, Victini, Azelf, Azumarill, Pyukumuku, Hoopa, and more. I definitely like the suspect ladder's high level matches more than the regular one so far.
Click to expand...

Just always have it in mind that a new meta is generally more diverse than a settled one because people takes time to test out new stuffs....
 
Decidueye's niche doesn't just lie in Spirit Shackle. Its main use is as a stallbreaker that sets up to +2 and nukes something with its stupidly strong signature Z-move while also not being complete deadweight against offense thanks to Sucker Punch. The trapping is honestly more of an added bonus. The real problem with Decidueye is that most stall teams tend to carry Unaware Clefable which is what has traditionally held it back, and I honestly doubt that aspect of stall is going to change with the removal of Arena Trap from the tier.
 
gengar.gif

Gengar @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Substitute/Taunt/Thunderbolt/Will-O-Wisp
- Focus Blast

I think that Gengar is a really underrated threat right now, as most teams tend to zero in on carrying dark resists for Ash Greninja and the recently rising Mega Gyarados rather than Ghost resists. The fact that the vast majority of Tyranitar are running Choice Band or Mega coupled with the dropping in webs usage and Bisharp usage by extension means that Gengar is able to absolutely bust through a large amount of teams in the current meta. I like sub on this set a lot because of it letting you dodge Suckers vs Mega Mawile and friends, but there's plenty of other moves that can go in this slot. Obviously Gengar isn't the best mon ever with its frailty and over reliance on inaccurate moves to deal with its main checks, but it's still a solid pick in the current metagame.
 
ochoagenalyn said:
Why is the birdspam team featuring Z Fly Nite and Mega Pinsir (if I remember correctly) so popular (and effective, probably) right now?
Click to expand...


Azelf gets rocks up quickly and stops opposing hazard setters (or blows up lead ash-gren with explosion), afterwards the other members of the team pressure the fuck out of shared checks like lando, and then the opposing teams defensive cores fall apart allowing priority spam and scarf excadrill to clean up
 
diancie-mega.gif
magearna.gif
pinsir-mega.gif
kartana.gif
tapulele.gif
excadrill.gif
mimikyu.gif
greninja.gif
landorus-therian.gif
gyarados-mega.gif

We're experiencing another resurgence in hyper offense, with it having been spammed on the OLT ladder and is currently being spammed on the suspect ladder by many people using it to get reqs. Hyper Offense is in a good state right now as it's very diversified, with many different hyper offensive team archetypes being viable without any one of them just flat out winning matchups at team preview (bar tr/veil and even then you usually have to play well to beat good players), helping to aleviate the tier's matchup issue a bit. Just to give insight into how diverse HO is right now, viable HO teams/playstyles that have been used commonly in both OLT and the suspect ladder to great success include; Gondra HO, Kanto HO, Aurora Veil, Trick Room, Xtra Birdspam, Psychic Spam, Rain, and Sabella HO that I can think of right now (webs isn't very good with the edition of Diancie into the tier among other metagame trends). As a player who only uses offense, is very happy to see this change as laddering is quite a bit more enjoyable than it was before. n_n
 
yea you are def gonna see a surge in ho now that stall a big playstyle took a big hit but also gonna a drop in certain teams like the Charizard-y plus dugtrio team seen in olt,wcop, etc. Bo will also get better and balance a little as well. Aurora veil offensive will always be good in my opinion. i think tr is alright but not to be underestimated. Pure offensive teams i dont really like this gen but they still work and have improved from the early meta. i agree sticky web with magic bounce users roaming the tier and koko make it a less desirable choice. im sure more experienced players can craft varying offense that works in this diverse meta which is what I like about this gen.
 
analysis geek said:
yea you are def gonna see a surge in ho now that stall a big playstyle took a big hit but also gonna a drop in certain teams like the Charizard-y plus dugtrio team seen in olt,wcop, etc. Bo will also get better and balance a little as well. Aurora veil offensive will always be good in my opinion. i think tr is alright but not to be underestimated. Pure offensive teams i dont really like this gen but they still work and have improved from the early meta. i agree sticky web with magic bounce users roaming the tier and koko make it a less desirable choice. im sure more experienced players can craft varying offense that works in this diverse meta which is what I like about this gen.
Click to expand...

Stall has never been a HO Counter, idk where this common misconception Comes from. In fact the 2 archetypes Keep each other in check.
 
my mistake, I often confuse archetypes so sometimes my arguments have their flaws like many others do. But to some up my argument so no one gets confused stall is going to deteriorate in viability do to the rise of the pokemon like mega mawile hoopa-u, ttar, etc; all in which a) destroy stall as a whole b) puts lots offensive pressure on stall mons. The metagame will be even more HO and BO dominant with balance and stall being seen less.
p.s: i didn't mean to imply that stall counters ho. i mean't to say stall could handle certain ho teams as seen in some of the wcop replays and what not and made wcop matchup oriented. overall with dugtrio, best trapper of wallbreakers and walls alike; being gone the metagame of ou become less matchup oriented leading to creation of more various ho team with breakers that were previously trapped like ex. tapu lele, tapu koko etc. ladder differs from tournament play so to each their own.
 
analysis geek said:
my mistake, I often confuse archetypes so sometimes my arguments have their flaws like many others do. But to some up my argument so no one gets confused stall is going to deteriorate in viability do to the rise of the pokemon like mega mawile hoopa-u, ttar, etc; all in which a) destroy stall as a whole b) puts lots offensive pressure on stall mons. The metagame will be even more HO and BO dominant with balance and stall being seen less.
p.s: i didn't mean to imply that stall counters ho. i mean't to say stall could handle certain ho teams as seen in some of the wcop replays and what not and made wcop matchup oriented. overall with dugtrio, best trapper of wallbreakers and walls alike; being gone the metagame of ou become less matchup oriented leading to creation of more various ho team with breakers that were previously trapped like ex. tapu lele, tapu koko etc. ladder differs from tournament play so to each their own.
Click to expand...

Don't worry man, wasn't meant to shittalk, I just like to Point this Kind of stuff out because if no one does, it always spreads like a wildfire amongst unexperienced players
 
With Dugtrio gone, we may see the rise of Hoopa as a stallbreaker. While it does have a bit of Four move slot syndrome, a set with life orb hyperspace fury, psychic gunk shot and fire punch can two hit ko anything on stall. It's not perfect, but it's also not completely reliant on its item like Marowak.
 
Bluemargay said:
With Dugtrio gone, we may see the rise of Hoopa as a stallbreaker. While it does have a bit of Four move slot syndrome, a set with life orb hyperspace fury, psychic gunk shot and fire punch can two hit ko anything on stall. It's not perfect, but it's also not completely reliant on its item like Marowak.
Click to expand...

If anything it would be the Specs set just like in ORAS.

Well, unless stall starts to run AV Magearna (or some variation, being the only defensively viable Pokemon to resist its STAB combination).
 
Hoopa-U outside of breaking stall isnt really good because it will be hurt by the rise of band pursuit ttar and mega ttar also the metagame doesnt really favor it with all the Fairy-types being added and strong pokemon that pick off hoopa-u with relative ease. Tapu lele can break stall and is somewhat a better option than hoopa-u because it can function out of the said role of "Stallbreaker"
 
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