Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v4

[Leo]

Non Dugtrio meta is still relatively new and difficult to comment on because of the bad overall quality of the ladder atm but there's something I know for sure: neither Hoopa nor Tapu Lele are Stallbreakers. I don't know where this misconception comes from because I've seen this type of comments pop up a couple of times here and on Discord and it's pretty simple to see why they won't be effective Stallbreakers. Without Dugtrio, Stall players are resorting to the second best form of trapping in Pursuit trapping, usually from Weavile. Hoopa's low Defense makes it easy for Weavile to trap it after it gets a kill, specially if it locks itself into a Psychic or Dark type move. Same goes for Lele except that non choiced sets can force mindgames every time it's in vs Weavile. Dugtrio leaving doesn't really help their Stall matchups so you should probably be looking for other mons that get better like Heatran and CB Tyranitar.

 

[robopoke]

Taunt Magmatran is soo hard to deal with for fat teams rn. Pex and Chansey are not safe switch ins because of Magmachip and Taunt to prevent recovery. If you add in Banded TTar you should be able to break all Stallteams with ease.
example:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-631695613


Also SD Knock Off Mega Scizor is incredibly threatening. Celesteela gets Knocked Off and is very easy to chip without Lefties and Rocks. Toxapex gets trapped by Taunt Magma Tran. Some people still have Shed Shell because Heatran is just that dangerous. Scizor just knocks it off earlygame so you can trap it later with Magma Tran. Opposing Heatran gets Knocked off on switchwhich means it is basicly dead and becomes easier to trap with Banded TTar. Zapdos gets Knocked off and trapped by TTar. You can run Earthquake on last slot to kill a Roosting Physdef Zapdos, attempting to PPstall Stone Edges or just Crunch safely. Choiced Leles are very easy to trap with Bulky TTar. Just sack something and make sure Rocks arent up and Banded TTar can Pursuit safely for huge chipdmg if it stays in or a kill if Lele switches.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 104 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 308-366 (83.9 - 99.7%)
224+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 138-163 (49.1 - 58%)

Thus Lele is also very easy to chip for lategame Scizor sweeps.
Once common counters or supergood checks such as Lele, Pex, Celesteela, Heatran are trapped or Knocked Off, all you need is a free SD situation to win.



Specs Keldeo is another behemoth rn with HP Electric and Kokosupport. Toxapex gets cleanly 2HKOed:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 208-246 (68.4 - 80.9%)

You do not even need HP Electric with Taunt Magma Heatran trapping those Toxapexes semireliably. Heatran also reliably weakens Fini for Specs Keldeo. Band TTar esp with bulkinvestment traps Latis and heavily weakens Mega Venusaur with Sandchip and good prediction.

Am I the only one who sees a potential broken playstyle with all those trapping moves making sure you cannot deal with Specs Keldeo and SD Mega Scizor?

Building with Specs Keldeo is easier than eva. Step one have a Koko counter. Step two add Taunt Magma Tran and Banded TTar to trap all counters. Step three have a Bulu counter. GG
Exampleteam: Keldeo, TTar, Heatran, Bulu, Pex, Mega Scizor



Another mon becoming good is CM Twave Clefable. CM+Twave beats Mega Venusaur and opposing Heatran once you paralyize them on the first switch and CM the next time as they switch in to be at +2 before they can attack back. Toxapex gets trapped by Tran. Only annoying things are Mega Scizor and Excadril.

Quite funny to see these ORAS threats becoming more threatening in SM OU without Arena Trap.

 

[NVT_Sart]

Non Dugtrio meta is still relatively new and difficult to comment on because of the bad overall quality of the ladder atm but there's something I know for sure: neither Hoopa nor Tapu Lele are Stallbreakers. I don't know where this misconception comes from because I've seen this type of comments pop up a couple of times here and on Discord and it's pretty simple to see why they won't be effective Stallbreakers. Without Dugtrio, Stall players are resorting to the second best form of trapping in Pursuit trapping, usually from Weavile. Hoopa's low Defense makes it easy for Weavile to trap it after it gets a kill, specially if it locks itself into a Psychic or Dark type move. Same goes for Lele except that non choiced sets can force mindgames every time it's in vs Weavile. Dugtrio leaving doesn't really help their Stall matchups so you should probably be looking for other mons that get better like Heatran and CB Tyranitar.

Lele is SORT OF a stallbreaker mostly due to the fact that there's no valid switchin for specs. The few actual switchins it has, like AV Magearna, have a hard time Fitting on Stall because of reasons like lack of reliable recovery and being overreliant on wishpassing in a metagame where you can hardly fit a wish passer on Stall at all. You're already completely strapped for teamslots as it is due to the sheer amount of threats, and it's impossible to cover all. (Especially considering many of the most threatening Mons to Stall only have niche switchins that are bad outside of checking THAT EXACT ONE MON. See for example Bulkarona for MMaw, etc. At a time where role compression is absolute king you're forced between either dropping of core concepts of Stall like Unaware Mons, Stealth Rock, etc., or settle with mediocre answers to certain threats/not covering certain threats at all.

Pursuit trapping isn't as common as you make it out to be from what I've experienced. Especially since the most common Pursuit Trapper for Stall, Weavile, doesn't ACTUALLY trap/threaten/Switch in to the Things that Trouble Stall the most after the removal of Dugtrio. Heatran would take a lot from Knock Off in theory, but that's assuming it doesn't Sub on the Switch, and it also isn't OHKO'd so pursuit trapping as a RK isn't valuable either. MMaw takes virtually nothing. Chansey has no reason to stay in and is barely 3HKOD by Pursuit, if you're CB it's even easier to take Advantage of, etc.

The actual way to go for Stall right now is purely outlasting. But hey, that's what People brought onto themselves

 

[TURBODERP]

Another mon becoming good is CM Twave Clefable. CM+Twave beats Mega Venusaur and opposing Heatran once you paralyize them on the first switch and CM the next time as they switch in to be at +2 before they can attack back. Toxapex gets trapped by Tran. Only annoying things are Mega Scizor and Excadril.

Quite funny to see these ORAS threats becoming more threatening in SM OU without Arena Trap.

NOT AGAIN

PLEASE DEAR GOD NOT AGAIN

Specs Keldeo running HP Electric or just being paired with Koko also splatters Mantine, which normally is a fantastic answer to Keldeo. Specs Sword also blows past Gastrodon (unless it's full PhysDef, and even then with hazards and a bit of chip it's a 2HKO).

 

[Siggu]

NOT AGAIN

PLEASE DEAR GOD NOT AGAIN

Having PTSD of that set?

Really, assuming Arena Trap is indeed getting banned a lot of the stallbreakers and wallbreakers that were big in ORAS (at least until Dugtrio gained traction over Pursuit trapping) will be big again here. At best they'd have to gamble on a coverage move because of Toxapex, but other than that, the walls are the same.

 

[TURBODERP]

Having PTSD of that set?

Really, assuming Arena Trap is indeed getting banned a lot of the stallbreakers and wallbreakers that were big in ORAS (at least until Dugtrio gained traction over Pursuit trapping) will be big again here. At best they'd have to gamble on a coverage move because of Toxapex, but other than that, the walls are the same.

The days when Knock Off+CM+T-wave Clef meant that Heatran wasn't actually a counter to Clefable are back. Those were.....yea, not the best days IMO.

Anyways, Stall/even balance or just fat cores in general will have to change up in order to actually handle the re-influx of old threats and the new ones. Not sure how that's gonna work to be honest?

 

[analysis geek]

The metagame will adjust in time but lets focus on current metagame trends. i could see the rise off mega ttar+excadrill or cb ttar excadrill and zard-y teams becoming more popular. i also think lando-t magnezone pinsir core will become alot better.
some previous threats took look out for is nihelego which can be a good zard-y check and offensive t spiker or stealth rocker.
There are alot more things to cover but these are some things ive noticed so far.

 

[NVT_Sart]

The metagame will adjust in time but lets focus on current metagame trends. i could see the rise off mega ttar+excadrill or cb ttar excadrill and zard-y teams becoming more popular. i also think lando-t magnezone pinsir core will become alot better.
some previous threats took look out for is nihelego which can be a good zard-y check and offensive t spiker or stealth rocker.
There are alot more things to cover but these are some things ive noticed so far.

Duggy wasn't the issue Sand Rush Drill and Nihilego weren't part of the metagame. Drill just has way too many checks and can't Keep up in his role as an offensive threat rn. Tbh even the rare Sand Teams usually run him more in a Utility role atm. Same goes for Nihilego, everything it does, is done better by other Mons like Gren, Lando, etc.

CB Ttar is most likely gonna rise in usage though, indeed

 

[Creator of Chaos]

Another mon becoming good is CM Twave Clefable. CM+Twave beats Mega Venusaur and opposing Hearten.

Quite funny to see these ORAS threats becoming more threatening in SM OU without Arena Trap.

NOT AGAIN

PLEASE DEAR GOD NOT AGAIN

Well I for couldn't be happier. We all need some calm minding yellow magic in our lives and I can't think of a better way then the return of our fairy overlord.

In all seriousness tho the amount it checks and the role compression offered is staggering. Checks alot of the Mega's, beats bolt beam magearna, beats non gunk gren. Offers speed control, status protection, pivoting and a win condition. All for one slot and the meta is perfect for it. Not ORAS universal check good because let's face it toxapex and tapus exist but there's no arguing she's back.

I can easily see sand getting better in the coming weeks if it hasn't caught on already. No duggy and fairy/steel dominated meta makes things very drill friendly. Also Not sure how stall is going to deal with mega maw post duggy.

 

[NVT_Sart]

Also Not sure how stall is going to deal with mega maw post duggy.

Try this if you want a direct answer:

Show

Volcarona (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 196 Def / 64 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp

Everything else is just playing around it

 

[TheCtes]

Skarmlry can OHKO Mega Mawile with counter on Fire Fang, but it's in no way reliable and quite easy to play around.

 

[NVT_Sart]

Skarmlry can OHKO Mega Mawile with counter on Fire Fang, but it's in no way reliable and quite easy to play around.

Stall Needs the answers it packs to be able to actually Switch into something. Since MMaw outspeeds Skarmory (unless you, for whatever weird reason, pack Speed EVs), you can't Switch into MMaw. You'll take guaranteed more than 50% from Thunder Fang, and a ~50% Chance of taking more than 50% from Fire Fang on the Switch, and then get outsped so you can't roost up/Counter anymore

Edit: Additionally, good Players will be able to Play around Counter by using weak attacks that don't kill themselves with Counter first, to bring you in OHKO range of the strong attacks. Same concept as with Bulu and Lando-T, and also a reason why Skarm isn't a reliable answer to those 2 either

 

[King Sceptile]

Stall Needs the answers it packs to be able to actually Switch into something. Since MMaw outspeeds Skarmory (unless you, for whatever weird reason, pack Speed EVs), you can't Switch into MMaw. You'll take guaranteed more than 50% from Thunder Fang, and a ~50% Chance of taking more than 50% from Fire Fang on the Switch, and then get outsped so you can't roost up/Counter anymore

Edit: Additionally, good Players will be able to Play around Counter by using weak attacks that don't kill themselves with Counter first, to bring you in OHKO range of the strong attacks. Same concept as with Bulu and Lando-T, and also a reason why Skarm isn't a reliable answer to those 2 either

I've never played stall before so excuse me if this is wrong, but can't wisp mew check Mawile on stall?

 

[wisdom dog]

I've never played stall before so excuse me if this is wrong, but can't wisp mew check Mawile on stall?

Stall typically doesnt run mew, but mega sableye can wisp mawile. However, mawile can SD to essentially ignore the wisp.

 

[volx757]

Stall typically doesnt run mew, but mega sableye can wisp mawile. However, mawile can SD to essentially ignore the wisp.

Sableye can only wisp maw on the switch or before it megas, as maw outspeeds and play rough is a clean ohko on even fully physically defensive msab.

 

[NVT_Sart]

I've never played stall before so excuse me if this is wrong, but can't wisp mew check Mawile on stall?

In theory it could check it, yeah. It Switches in once at full health, outspeeds and burns it, and then it's a rather even roll if you live or die from the burned attack. If you live, cool, then you can roost up next turn and eventually beat it.

In practise though, all Mew does vs MMaw is force mindgames and 50/50s. None of the attacking moves Mew commonly carries really threaten Mmaw, so SD sets can boost past the attack decrease for example. Also since without the burn you most likely won't survive a second PR (still a roll, but heavily in mmaw favor), you are more or less FORCED to willo after the Switch, and cant just hope for the best and roost up. And knowing that you're forced to Willo can be taken Advantage of by switching into a Heatran or Mons that are immune/not bothered by burns.

And this isn't even taking into account teammates with a Cleric move, Healing Wish, Misty Terrain, etc. yet. Although tbf most of those won't run MMaw as their mega since it fits better on hyper aggressive Teams.

 

[Reviloja753]

Arena Trap is out the door. There are plenty of things that are absolutely thrilled by this. One thing I would like to mention is Tapu Lele. More specifically, Stallbreaker Lele. I have an idea for a set that has potential to clean up stall.

Tapu Lele @ Electrium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast

The main difference is Electrium Z Thunderbolt. Before, it was too risky to run Thunderbolt as Dugtrio came in and killed you back. With Dugtrio out of the picture, Celesteela is no longer safe against Lele.

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 368-434 (92.4 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

It now has a 50/50 chance of being killed by Lele. Also, Skarmory doesn't take it too well either.

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 286-338 (85.8 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 136-162 (39.6 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Psyshock is for Chansey and Focus Blast is for Ferrothorn. I could just be missing a massive flaw, but this set has the potential to be a fantastic stallbreaker.

 

[IQMathlete]

Arena Trap is out the door. There are plenty of things that are absolutely thrilled by this. One thing I would like to mention is Tapu Lele. More specifically, Stallbreaker Lele. I have an idea for a set that has potential to clean up stall.

Tapu Lele @ Electrium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast

The main difference is Electrium Z Thunderbolt. Before, it was too risky to run Thunderbolt as Dugtrio came in and killed you back. With Dugtrio out of the picture, Celesteela is no longer safe against Lele.

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 368-434 (92.4 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

It now has a 50/50 chance of being killed by Lele. Also, Skarmory doesn't take it too well either.

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 286-338 (85.8 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 136-162 (39.6 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Psyshock is for Chansey and Focus Blast is for Ferrothorn. I could just be missing a massive flaw, but this set has the potential to be a fantastic stallbreaker.

On mobile so I cant say much.
Firstly no reason to run Electrium Z Tbolt. If you're gonna lure Celes, do it properly and use Electrium Thunder. I see your calc, but running Timid (and being able to deal with the rarer special defensive set) feels more important imo.
Secondly, Tapu Lele has a pretty important speed tier. Why the hell are all your EVs in BULK? Every Lele in the history of the universe (be it Specs, Scarf, Taunt, ex-Viner) runs max speed Timid.
Lastly, how do you expect to "break" stall w/o Taunt? Makes no sense.
Please lurk more.

 

[Vengeance417]

On mobile so I cant say much.
Firstly no reason to run Electrium Z Tbolt. If you're gonna lure Celes, do it properly and use Electrium Thunder. I see your calc, but running Timid (and being able to deal with the rarer special defensive set) feels more important imo.
Secondly, Tapu Lele has a pretty important speed tier. Why the hell are all your EVs in BULK? Every Lele in the history of the universe (be it Specs, Scarf, Taunt, ex-Viner) runs max speed Timid.
Lastly, how do you expect to "break" stall w/o Taunt? Makes no sense.
Please lurk more.

I agree with your latter two points, but Thunderbolt works just fine with Electrium Z.

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 97-114 (24.3 - 28.6%) -- 53.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

in to

252 SpA Tapu Lele Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 336-396 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

is a KO. Even if Celesteela's at full, if it takes rocks, it has a good chance of getting knocked out by Z-Thunderbolt. This way, Tapu Lele doesn't need to rely on Thunder post-Electrium Z to take things like Mantine out.

Edit: Telling someone to "lurk more" isn't necessary, either...

 

[IQMathlete]

I agree with your latter two points, but Thunderbolt works just fine with Electrium Z.

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 97-114 (24.3 - 28.6%) -- 53.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

in to

252 SpA Tapu Lele Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 336-396 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

is a KO. Even if Celesteela's at full, if it takes rocks, it has a good chance of getting knocked out by Z-Thunderbolt. This way, Tapu Lele doesn't need to rely on Thunder post-Electrium Z to take things like Mantine out.

Ah, fair enough. Went to go test some calcs and yeah, Z-Tbolt does do the job. My mistake :P

 

[Reviloja753]

TBH I forgot about Taunt. My bad!

Tapu Lele @ Electrium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Moonblast / Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Taunt

Is this any better?

 

[The Active]

i think z fightium hits alot more of lele's checks and z tbolt is only really for celesteela which other teamslots are for. That being said i think specs breaks through walls just a good as this set with advantanges over specs being switching moves and taunt.

 

[Altervisi]

Glad to see Arena Trap gone, do we think stall will remain the strongest team build now or will another archetype take over? I think balance should see a rise because you don't have to either choose stall or a stall breaking team... but that is of course depends on how fast someone discovers a new broken mechanic in the vacuum after Dugtrio.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

Speaking of post-suspect meta shifts, anyone else notice an increase in Charizard X usage? I guess it didn't like possible scarf duggy and the recent shift away from CharY might encourage people to use this one instead. The 3 attacks + dd set in particular seems to offer the best coverage given Pex/Tran/Ttar usage but aside from that, I'm not sure what's really changed here to encourage X usage. Lando is still everywhere, Ttar is as good as ever, and without Roost it doesn't last very long. Maybe this is a mid-ladder/low suspect ladder thing.

 

[quziel]

I'd imagine the increase in Zard-X usage is partly due to the actual sets its answers are running. Toxapex is pretty much going more spdef heavy than it was in early SM, Lando is generally gonna be running an offensive set, which Zard can OHKO with SR damage and a tiny bit of luck, Fini basically doesn't exist, Hippowdon is deader than disco, all of which really favor Zard. Additionally, I'd argue that scarfers in general are getting a lot less common, and some of those that are ran don't even answer it amazingly, with Scarf Greninja doing 48% max, Infernape failing to OHKO, Lele, and other slow scarfers have been getting more popular, and just die. Obviously if you face Scarf Garchomp you're sorta screwed, but that mon's less common than it has been since basically the start of the gen.

It is legitimately probably the best its been this entire gen, as hazard control is sorta possible atm, as well as the 3 attacks set basically barreling through all of its common checks fairly easily, again, due to pex running more spdef heavy spreads, and lando being run almost fully offensively.

Note: Worded horribly, will retype in the morning

Also Healing Wish + 3 attacks DD Zard-X is a really fun combo that is actually pretty easy to use, and allows Zard-X to run through a lot of checks, and then set up again and sweep again. Yeah its sorta infringing upon Roost Zard, but Eq just lets you bypass so much that its worth it imo.