USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

[Darksafadao]

Hi, I wanna share my thoughts on the Heracross topic. I agree with it dropping to B+, but not for the reasons addressed of how it does versus offense: I wanna talk how I feel its match-up versus Stall has declined since it last rose in the rankings:

- Gliscor became even bigger in stall teams - Defog Gliscor has found its way in many stall builds, and it has only risen since Breloom was introduced. Heracross can't OHKO it without a boost and in return just dies to even an unboosted Acrobatics/Wing Attack. Sure, it can pressure these builds with an early game pressure, making it not want to come into a Knock Off, but even so it surely hurts how effective Heracross can be versus Stall.

- Moltres Stall - Same thing as Gliscor. It is faster, can't get OHKO'd on the switch and kills Heracross. The difference is that a rocker that pressures Defoggers well enough, such as Nihilego or Rhyperior, can patch that, but even though it still isn't a good thing for Heracross, as in early times when stall wasn't as adapted to it it would need next to no support.

- Mega-Slowbro becoming UU - Mega-Slowbro makes stall get one more layer of depth, giving it a new style to explore. With this, Heracross finds another Pokémon that can take hits and kill it back. Sure, Heracross could run Megahorn for it over Facade, but then it'll get walled by fairies. In the end, it becomes a matter of picking your poison, and the addition of one more mon that can deal with Heracross just hurts it a lot.

Of course, it is still a great wallbreaker and status absorber. But being B+ right now represents how it fits in the meta better than its current ranking, as it isn't as great versus Stall as it once was.
And this is why, imo, Heracross should drop a ranking. Thanks for reading.

 

[Wiwiw4]

Hi I must say that I am not the best pokemon player and I am still fluctuating between the 1400s, and this is my first post so sorry if I get something extremely wrong but I would like to give my opinion on some nominations.
Mega Manectric to a: Even though pokemon like rhyperior or Hippowdon rising in usage have certainly hurt this monster I dont believe it should drop as first once their ground type is dead Mega Manectric can freely use volt switch to gain momentum and even the ground types that "counter it" need to be afraid of hidden power ice or grass which can easily ohko or 2ohko them ( I must say that running hidden power grass has been working perfectly for me since it obliterates ryperior, swampert and quagsire all common switchins) so I must say that most of its checks can easily be killed with some predicción and if you have no alternative Mega Manectric destroys Brellom as brellom cant ohko it even at plus one and as long as you dont hard switch spore wont be a problem.
Rhyperior to B+: Agree I know it is funny that I was saying Mega Manectric can beat it and I still support the rise but this mon is so good at many other things and I believe everyone has already said enough about it.
Raikou to B-: Hard Agree This mon is just outclassed in most ways and even though it can also beat its checks it is much more difficult than with Manectric.
Suicine to a-: Disagree Vincuine is still as annoying and the rise in ground types really helps him as the rest talk set just destroys them including the drop in usage of raikou and Manectric I would even say that this thing is closer to a rise than a drop.
And now for my own nomination.
Jellicent to c+: I have barely seen this mon in usage and the extra use of breloom definitely doesnt help it while offering little defensive utility that other mons cant do better and though it appreciates the higher usage in ground types I believe this thing should have dropped ages ago and the surge of Tsareena and Decidueye is something that further cripples it.

 

[Hilomilo]

Ranking Update
A slate that ultimately came out with the following changes was very recently voted on, though there were admittedly a few proposed changes (such as those in the post above) that weren't made in time to be voted on by the council, so please do continue discussing those in addition to this time's round of discussion points! Anyways, here's what changed this update.

Rises

A- -> A

B- -> B

C+ -> B-

C+ -> B-

C+ -> B-

Drops

A+ -> A

A- -> B+

B -> B-

C+ -> C

C -> C-

C -> C-

Reasons for Rises

Togekiss is in a really good spot right now, due to its ability to easily pivot into a few major metagame threats like Hydreigon, Serperior, and particularly Breloom, which is only seeing increased influence over the tier. Its Fightinium Z set further bolsters the argument for a rise, as it patches up Togekiss’s previous weaknesses as a stallbreaker while maintaining strong matchups against other play styles.

Rhyperior is rising for the same reasons it rose in the last update, which mainly include being a generally strong pick in a metagame full of threats it can adequately check and get rocks down against (particularly Mega Manectric, Flying-types, various physical attackers, etc.). Its current value to the teams it’s fitted on is more accurately reflected in B than its previous rank, which is why it continued rising this time.

Decidueye’s matchup against both stall and balance has improved enough recently to justify rising back into the B ranks. It definitely doesn’t appreciate Moltres’s uptick in usage, though it definitely takes advantage of Gliscor and Mega Slowbro’s increased usage on stall enough to offset this flaw while also appreciating the frequent inclusion of Ground-types like Hippowdon and Rhyperior on the tier’s more balanced builds.

Rotom-H has more of a place in the metagame than before due to its outstanding matchups against a lot of important Pokemon in the tier. Blanket checking a large portion of the metagame in addition to providing sufficient offensive utility has allowed the heat to shine more than ever, especially with Azumarill gone, though the council ultimately only voted in favor of rising it one subrank instead of all the way up to B, due to its Stealth Rock weakness and lacking power.

Tsareena has responded extremely well to recent trends and is finding much more of a place in the metagame as a wallbreaker due to this. The rise in a few defensive Ground-types, the prevalence of both Breloom and Mega Slowbro, and the popularity of archetypes Tsareena really threatens, such as stall and balance, are all more than enough to move it up a rank despite its flaws.

Reasons for Drops

Oh, how the mighty have fallen. While Mega Manectric is still among the tier’s best Mega Evolutions, it is now dropping from A+ on account of the metagame recently working against it much more than before. The archetype it’s best on isn’t particularly amazing right now, and its limited set of tools doesn’t really give it any way of circumventing its weakness to the plentiful counterplay that continues rising. It’s still a dominant force, though it is about as dominant as what it now sits with in A, which is why dropping is ultimately fair.

The ranking council voted almost unanimously in favor of dropping Heracross, which despite still being a powerful offensive force, isn’t as strong against stall or balance as previously. As was mentioned in Darksafadao's post, it struggles to combat the increased usage of Pokemon such as Gliscor, Mega Slowbro, and Moltres on stall, while a lot of current balance carries Pokemon quite capable of offensively overwhelming it. It’s still fantastic, though its breaking capabilities are now more comparable to those of Terrakion, which justifies dropping.

A Lucario drop was only briefly suggested, though the ranking council agreed that B was too high a rank for it. Lucario saw a spike in usage and viability earlier due to having a strong matchup against stall in addition to revenge killing Stakataka easily. However, Stakataka is no longer the presence it once was, while Moltres’s introduction to several stall builds and Breloom’s presence both hinder Lucario quite greatly. Right now, it’s just too overwhelmed and outperformed to maintain a B ranking.

No discussion on these three occurred in the thread, though all were voted to drop almost unanimously. Zygarde-10%’s niche is just too currently offset by its multiple drawbacks, which include poor matchups against several popular archetypes and almost zero defensive utility, to warrant staying in C+. Linoone can really only fit on a falling play style in Aurora Veil offense, and Lycanroc-D severely lacks usage to prove its worth in addition to just being a mediocre pick on account of the competition it faces, its lacking defensive utility, and the popularity of threats like Hippowdon and Mega Slowbro that it just can’t break past.

Rejected Nominations and Discussion Points

Breloom A+ -> S
It’s very likely that Breloom is among the tier’s unhealthiest threats, though that isn’t automatic justification for rising to S. It has some versatility between its Technician and Poison Heal sets, though it still isn’t as versatile as anything else in S. Overall, its poor Speed, inability to fulfill several roles, and extremely lacking defensive utility keeps it from being S caliber, given that its perks don’t adequately offset its glaring flaws unlike the three Pokemon currently residing in the rank above it.

Suicune A -> A-
Those that participated in the ranking council’s vote actually voted 4-3 in favor of dropping Suicune, though this small a majority isn’t enough for me to comfortably drop it. Suicune is still a very centralizing threat that requires specific counterplay on certain archetypes to muscle past. Despite facing competition from Mega Slowbro, the two are on a relatively even playing field and that is best represented in keeping both at A.

Sylveon B+ -> A-
Sylveon is a great defensive Pokemon, but its flaws are currently enough to prevent it from rising a subrank and comfortably staying in B+. It struggles to combat the popularity of some Steel-types more than other Fairies, while it is also often setup bait for a lot of fairly centralizing forces, such as Mega Slowbro and even Latias. While one of the better B+ Pokemon right now, it just doesn’t have particularly good enough of responses to meta trends to rise just yet.

Azelf B+ -> B
Azelf’s favorite archetype may not excel in the current meta, though it still has a place in UU as a Pokemon with an unparalleled niche and several other uses, such as a potential booster with Nasty Plot, outside of that niche. Right now staying in B+ is fairly representative of what it has going for and against it.

Mega Sceptile B -> B+
Mega Sceptile is in a bit of an awkward place right now, and B+ really wouldn’t reflect that. It enjoys the increased usage of Ground-types, though it still struggles to keep up with Scizor’s continued dominance, its four-moveslot syndrome intensifying, and the prevalence of a lot of Breloom checks that it matches up poorly against, such as Moltres and Togekiss. It also doesn’t pressure the tier’s Water-types nearly as adequately as the Grass-types ranked above it due to both its semi-inconvenient typing and a lack of a boosting move, so ultimately B is fair for the time being.

Discussion Points

Swampert A- -> A
The arguments for rising Swampert include its ability to blanket check and set rocks against a large portion of the metagame, such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Manectric, and Infernape, while even scaring a few Grass-types from switching in due to the threat of Scald burns. Of course, the lack of recovery allowing it to be offensively overwhelmed in tandem with its vulnerability to a few prominent threats, such as Serperior and Hydreigon, brings staying A- into question.

Mega Houndoom B+ -> B
Mega Houndoom’s usefulness versus Salazzle’s, which largely influenced its placement in B+, is less definitive than before due to its larger vulnerability to Breloom, which is more prominent in the metagame than when the decision to put it in B+ was first made. However, Mega Houndoom could still maintain its current placement on account of pressuring Mega Slowbro among other threats really well in addition to being a generally more self-sufficient sweeper.

Volcanion B+ -> B
Volcanion’s heyday was in a metagame dominated by Azumarill, which is no longer what current UU is. While it still has the tools necessary to excel as a wallbreaker, it’s less of an urgent teambuilding tool and due to its paltry Speed, rocks weakness, and lack of room for defensive investment, it can be a bit of an underwhelming answer to a lot of what you’d put it on a team to combat, like Scizor or Primarina.

Crawdaunt B- -> B
Crawdaunt has a lot more breathing room as a wallbreaker in the metagame now that its main competition in Azumarill is now gone. It also takes advantage of the widespread increase in defensive Ground-type usage. However, it could still reasonably stay in B- on account of its inability to adequately combat Breloom’s prowess, in addition to poorly matching up against tier staples like Mega Altaria and Hydreigon.

Feraligatr C -> C+
Feraligatr is another Water-type that enjoys Azumarill’s departure from the metagame. While still relatively unused, it can capitalize on its good natural bulk and the presence of both Ground- and Fire-types to set up with either Dragon Dance or Agility and begin doing some serious damage. The main arguments against a rise are its lacking usage as well as its vulnerability to a lot of what it often can’t OHKO, such as Hydreigon, Mega Manectric, and Celebi among other Pokemon.

Silvally-Steel UR -> C-
Silvally-Steel is a relatively undiscovered threat that only a few players have proven success with. However, it’s proven in replays like these two that through its unique set of tools it can put in a lot of work as a utility Pokemon. Its great bulk and typing, access to a great move in Parting Shot, and good synergy with a lot of other defensive Pokemon could very well rationalize finding placement somewhere in the rankings.

 

[Katy]

Mega Houndoom B+ -> B

When drought got banned to free up Mdoom, I was really adamant on saying it is at least B+ if not A- but i dont see it doing that much to keep it in B+ anymore. I think Mdoom should definetly drop one subrank from B+ to B. It has a great speed tier and a great SpAtt and i really think the Nasty Plot 3 Attacks set is still potent in the current metagame, especially one of his enemies aka Azumarill is gone, But i dont think in the general metagame it does that much to keep it that high.
Mega Doom from B+ to B agreed.

Feraligatr C -> C+

Fera on the other hand sees some usage lately in the UU tier. I think it is a decent mon. It should rise imho, since I saw him putting in decent amount of work.
It has DD to profit from to get a +1 in speed +attack. I also see the SD set putting in work and break some bulkier mons.
Feraligatr from C- to C+ agreed.

 

[Dreadfury]

Feraligatr C -> C+
Feraligatr is another Water-type that enjoys Azumarill’s departure from the metagame. While still relatively unused, it can capitalize on its good natural bulk and the presence of both Ground- and Fire-types to set up with either Dragon Dance or Agility and begin doing some serious damage. The main arguments against a rise are its lacking usage as well as its vulnerability to a lot of what it often can’t OHKO, such as Hydreigon, Mega Manectric, and Celebi among other Pokemon.

I definitely agree with a Gatr rise. Though it does lose 1v1 to quite a bit of powerful stuff in the tier, its terrifying immediate power allows it to force out a lot of things that can't outright OHKO it by virtue of its solid bulk. Most UU-viable Gatr variants love forcing switches since they can get free turns to boost up: Dragon Dance and Agility variants are both pretty solid against more offensively-oriented teams since a +1/+1 Gatr outpaces a lot of the unboosted tier and OHKOs or 2HKOs most top threats in the tier while a +2 speed Gatr can outpace and dent a good portion of the metagame while running an Adamant nature, and Swords Dance variants can tear gaping holes in fatter teams, 2HKOing everything in the tier with just a little bit of hazard support. While it's definitely rather uncommon, it can capitalize on a lot of the recent metagame trends like Rhyperior and Moltres having a surge in usage while packing powerful coverage options for its checks. Sheer Force+LO Ice Punch hits stuff that can stomach a Liquidation like a nuke from orbit. And honestly, even B- wouldn't be a stretch for this thing in the future although I'd say baby steps are fine for Gatr for now.

Crawdaunt B- -> B
Crawdaunt has a lot more breathing room as a wallbreaker in the metagame now that its main competition in Azumarill is now gone. It also takes advantage of the widespread increase in defensive Ground-type usage. However, it could still reasonably stay in B- on account of its inability to adequately combat Breloom’s prowess, in addition to poorly matching up against tier staples like Mega Altaria and Hydreigon.

While Breloom is amazing, I'd hardly argue its existence compromises Crawdaunt's prowess as a wallbreaker. Azumarill's departure from UU is a blessing for this thing since it lost its main competition and one of its most effective checks. Choice Band and Swords Dance variants do tremendous damage against slower, bulkier teams, and having a strong Aqua Jet doesn't make it absolute dead weight against offensive teams. While Trick Room is somewhat out of favor now, Crawdaunt also happens to sit at a rather interesting speed tier for the archetype: it's slow enough to function well against offensive teams while Trick Room is active, and it's fast enough to beat some of the most popular Trick Room users and sweepers in the tier while it isn't active. Stakataka, Bronzong, Uxie, Reuniclus, Alolan Marowak, and some others are susceptible to getting eaten alive by one of Crawdaunt's STABs without a problem. Lastly, even though Crawdaunt is largely hard-countered by the likes of Mega Altaria, it also happens to be Crawdaunt's only consistently safe hard-counter since nothing else in the tier is particularly interested in playing around potential defense drops, boosts, or just good prediction. So, likewise, I also agree with a Crawdaunt rise to B.

 

[Amane Misa]

C -> C+

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-742947876

Initially, I had Sylveon over Umbreon on that slot but I needed an answer to Ghost-types, such as Gengar and Chandelure. Umbreon is an interesting and alternative for Sylveon that exchanges Sylveon's better matchup against Fighting-types, such as Infernape and Mienshao, and Dragon-types, such as Latias, Hydreigon, and most notably, Mega Altaria, for a better matchup against Ghost-types, such as the aforementioned ones, which are pretty good right now. Note that despite losing the Fairy-typing, Umbreon will still be able to switch into the kinds of Latias and Hydreigon and kinda beat them, but less reliably. Here are some relevant calcs against Dragon-types:

Latias

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 134-162 (44.3 - 53.6%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO (after a Calm Mind)

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 140-168 (46.3 - 55.6%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO (with Latias having 0 Atk IVs)

+1 252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 255-300 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hydreigon

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 186-219 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 124-147 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 86.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 52-62 (16 - 19%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock (you'll eventually beat it... I promise)

Oh, also; Scizor can't freely switch into you without you having to rely on Hidden Power Fire (unlike Sylveon):

Scizor

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 171-202 (60.8 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (max Attack, Adamant nature)

Umbreon did an amazing job that game, getting 3 kills. All in all, I think it should be ranked higher than Pokemon such as Chesnaught and Registeel.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

Feraligatr to C+: hard agree
this mon is actually low-key good. It sets up on all the bulky ground types with relative ease, and with DD it can get stronger and faster. This gives it a good niche over other offensive waters. It really appreciates Azumarill leaving and all the bulky ground types right now, definitely enough to justify rising to C+, I think even B-. But for now, yeah, definitely agree with C+.

Crawdaunt: B- to B: Agree

Crawdaunt had no way of getting passed Azumarill and face tough competition from it. Now that it's gone, however, Crawdaunt can do what it always has. Wreck stall and offense alike. Hits like a truck and definitely shouldn't be overlooked, as water and dark are both quite good types rn. Rise it to B.

Now for my own nomination:
Snorlax to B

Snorlax is very strong rn. It has an great matchup against a lot of mons, and can set up on a lot of cheap stall teams with curse. Thanks to rest, Snorlax can get rid of toxic if need be, and continue to set up. It also isn't just limited to curse sets. It has recycle 50% berry sets with gluttony and even CB sets, making it versatile and less predictable. It appreciates the decline of Heracross and Lucario along with the increase of bulky grounds. Cool mon. Try it

 

[JustoonSmitts]

Swampert A- -> A
Agree
Swampert is by far one of UU's best defensive Pokémon, pretty much checking most of UU's physical attackers and Mega Manectric. Yeah, no reliable recovery is a bummer and Breloom destroys it, but it doesn't destroy Swampert's defensive utility one bit.

Mega Houndoom B+ -> B
Agree
Yes, it pressures Mega Bro from setting up, but the shroomosaurus wrecks its day. A weakness to all entry hazards doesn't help, and setting up with Nast Plot is easier said than done. It's definitely not as good as it once was.

Volcanion B+ -> B
Disagree
Volcanion is still a great wallbreaker, being able to handle everything else it's supposed to check in UU. The rise of Crawdaunt should be all the more reason to use it, since Modest outspeeds the lobster and can even potentially 1HKO it with Steam Eruption.

Crawdaunt B- -> B
Hard Agree
Lord Helix said it better than I could have.

Feraligatr C -> C+
Agree
Same as above.

Silvally-Steel UR -> C-
Disagree
Why would you use this over Scizor? Yes, Parting Shot is a good move, but it has to forgo Leftovers recovery and despite its good natural bulk, it has no reliable recovery. Scizor also gets Defog but it has higher damage output, Roost, and can hold Leftovers. If you can make it work, more power to you. I'd rather stick with Scizor.

 

[frankjosh]

Silvally-Steel UR -> C-
Disagree
Why would you use this over Scizor? Yes, Parting Shot is a good move, but it has to forgo Leftovers recovery and despite its good natural bulk, it has no reliable recovery. Scizor also gets Defog but it has higher damage output, Roost, and can hold Leftovers. If you can make it work, more power to you. I'd rather stick with Scizor.

Not sure I like comparing silvally to scizor. The pure steel typing means that silvally is allowed to come in on things such as lati/hydregion/alt relatively free, whereas scizor has to worry about the fire coverage moves. It also means that silvally is a better switch to things such as pidgeot (heat wave doesnt do half to max spdef silv) and standard np togekiss which scizor can of course not come in on, at least the bulky variants which you are talking about.

I really think silvally is just supposed to be more of a specially defensive pivot for some of the weaker moves it's neutral against and the crucial flying resist really helps against some teams right now. Not to mention it gets amazing moves for some of the top answers in the tier such as gliscor/scizor in ice beam/flamethrower respectively.

With this being said I'm also going to support the ranking of this mon. Amazing support moves like defog/parting shot with nice coverage moves for top threats coming off base 95s is super sweet. Lack of leftovers honestly blows but with it's amazing typing and having proper wish pass support silvally can be such a durable pivot and a real beast.

 

[palkia246]

A- to A: Disagree
I like Swampert but I don't think it's dominant or defining enough in the teambuilder to be worthy of an A ranking. It's on a pretty even playing field with Hippowdon right now since I think both are as necessary to cover in teambuilding, but most importantly due to Hippowdon's access to recovery which is crucial for consistently checking Pokemon like Infernape and Mega Aerodactyl throughout a match's entirety. Swampert's also struggling with a little more competition than before since Rhyperior's surge in usage, due to Rhyperior's better ability to take on the tier's currently really viable Flying-types, which is a super viable teambuilding tool. Swampert's good, don't get me wrong, but I feel like it has significant enough competition and isn't on the level of the other A mons in the first place. A- perfectly reflects its current capabilities.

B+ to B: Agree
Volcanion's always felt underwhelming to me. Its Stealth Rock weakness really hinders it when it comes to actually attempting to check a lot of what it wants to check, like Scizor, Infernape, and especially Primarina. It also is struggling significantly more in a post Azumarill meta due to Fire-type Choice Scarf users like Chandelure and Infernape now no longer fearing the threat of Choice Band Aqua Jet while more reliably revenge killing Serperior. It's still a devastating wallbreaker, though there are plenty of those across the entire viability ranking thread and overall I feel like Volcanion's viability has recently decreased and it's no longer as good as other Fire-types in its rank like Chandelure and Mega Houndoom.

Now for a few nominations of my own:

Aurora Veil down to C
Aurora Veil has really fallen as a play style and I no longer think that it has what it takes to maintain C+. It's still a potent play style, but offensive archetypes in general are falling while more balanced and defensive play styles are rising in frequency of use. The increased Hippowdon usage and Breloom's dominance over the tier also hurts these guys' capabilities to set up Aurora Veil, which are already shaky as is given their frailty and poor typings and Sandslash's reliance on hail to function. Overall, I think that the playstyle has become more or less suboptimal due to the trends of the metagame working specifically against Aurorus and Alolan Sandslash and balanced and defensive builds proving to be more consistently useful in the tier than offense.

Stakataka down to B
This one may be controversial but I actually find Stakataka to be super underwhelming in the current metagame and there's also no denying that it has dramatically decreased usage even from when it dropped from the A ranks. It has very little ways of standing up to the multiple defensive Ground-types that drastically rose in popularity recently, while Breloom has only increased in dominance and can easily stop Stakataka from sweeping offensive archetypes, which it's best suited to trying plowing through. The popularity of stall and balance hinders Stakataka due to its struggles to break several staples of both these archetypes, while the very archetype in offense that it best fits on just isn't too hot right now and compromises its splashability. It's also super one-dimensional, making it very predictable and easy to combat given how commonly teams these days carry Fighting-, Grass-, Water-, and Ground-types. It can still adequately clean up in the late-game, though I feel that this goal is harder to work toward than ever before, and a drop would show that well.

 

[Jade]

Stakataka down to B
This one may be controversial but I actually find Stakataka to be super underwhelming in the current metagame and there's also no denying that it has dramatically decreased usage even from when it dropped from the A ranks. It has very little ways of standing up to the multiple defensive Ground-types that drastically rose in popularity recently, while Breloom has only increased in dominance and can easily stop Stakataka from sweeping offensive archetypes, which it's best suited to trying plowing through. The popularity of stall and balance hinders Stakataka due to its struggles to break several staples of both these archetypes, while the very archetype in offense that it best fits on just isn't too hot right now and compromises its splashability. It's also super one-dimensional, making it very predictable and easy to combat given how commonly teams these days carry Fighting-, Grass-, Water-, and Ground-types. It can still adequately clean up in the late-game, though I feel that this goal is harder to work toward than ever before, and a drop would show that well.

I think you're underestimating Stakataka quite a lot. OTR isn't its only good set. It can act as a bird check and wall on Stall and on some Balance builds, so Im not sure why you're only mentioning the TR set. In fact, Id say Rhyperior hype has helped it, as it can break past it unlike Hippowdon and Swampert:
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (93 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 202-238 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The point about splashability doesn't make much sense to me. Stakataka is splashable on the aforementioned Balance and Stall as a bird check. Even its OTR set, which you seem to be focusing on, can be used on some BO builds as a late-game cleaner.The Grass types being easy to combat also doesn't make much sense. Most Grass types are nuked by Gyro Ball (before you say Breloom, that cant switch in and can be patched by teammates). Its Rock/Steel typing, while you might say is bad, allows it to check things like Latias, Togekiss, the now rising Moltres, etc.

Overrall, I disagree with a Stakataka drop.

 

[Amane Misa]

A- -> A: Agree
One of the best physical walls UU has to offer. An amazing dual typing, Stealth Rock, and very cool filler options, such as Counter, Mirror Coat, and Ice Beam definitely make Swampert an A-rank material. Furthermore, its Subzero Slammer set is amazing. Sacri' showcased it very nicely back on his SPL game. It is capable of straight up OHKOing Latias, one of the best switch-ins to it, OHKOing Hydreigon after Stealth Rock, and prevent Breloom from getting free turns on it as it tries to switch into Swampert. While the Subzero Slammer set provides Swampert slightly less bulk, it still has enough bulk to take on what's it's supposed to take.

C+ -> C: Disagree
Aurora Veil isn't really good as a playstyle right now, I agree. It is still niche enough to be C+, though. Cynde did a great job showing it on his UUPL game versus Manipulative. For the cost of two moveslots, you provide four of your team members with an amazing bulk boost and Stealth Rock support. The best counterplays Offense has to offer against Aurora Veil are Breloom and Defog. It should not be ranked the same with Registeel and Barbaracle.

B+ -> B: Disagree
Stakataka is a very good late game cleaner. It is capable of setting up Trick Room against top UU threats, including Latias, Hydreigon, Serperior, and more, and just going crazy. Juuno summed it up better than I possibly could, though.

 

[JustoonSmitts]

Aurora Veil down to C
Aurora Veil has really fallen as a play style and I no longer think that it has what it takes to maintain C+. It's still a potent play style, but offensive archetypes in general are falling while more balanced and defensive play styles are rising in frequency of use. The increased Hippowdon usage and Breloom's dominance over the tier also hurts these guys' capabilities to set up Aurora Veil, which are already shaky as is given their frailty and poor typings and Sandslash's reliance on hail to function. Overall, I think that the playstyle has become more or less suboptimal due to the trends of the metagame working specifically against Aurorus and Alolan Sandslash and balanced and defensive builds proving to be more consistently useful in the tier than offense.

Stakataka down to B
This one may be controversial but I actually find Stakataka to be super underwhelming in the current metagame and there's also no denying that it has dramatically decreased usage even from when it dropped from the A ranks. It has very little ways of standing up to the multiple defensive Ground-types that drastically rose in popularity recently, while Breloom has only increased in dominance and can easily stop Stakataka from sweeping offensive archetypes, which it's best suited to trying plowing through. The popularity of stall and balance hinders Stakataka due to its struggles to break several staples of both these archetypes, while the very archetype in offense that it best fits on just isn't too hot right now and compromises its splashability. It's also super one-dimensional, making it very predictable and easy to combat given how commonly teams these days carry Fighting-, Grass-, Water-, and Ground-types. It can still adequately clean up in the late-game, though I feel that this goal is harder to work toward than ever before, and a drop would show that well.

I haven't seen Aurora Veil in ages. It's likely because you need a LOT of support to use it properly and it doesn't consistently perform well in this day and age. I agree with this nomination. Drop Aurora Veil to C or even C-.

As far as Stakataka, I gotta disagree with this nom. I still find it a great late-game cleaner as long as Breloom or Crawdaunt aren't around(lol). It still steamrolls almost all the speedy UU threats like Mega Aero, Latias, Serperior, and even Rhyperior, and it still keeps things like Moltres in check thanks to its typing. The best part is that it's consistent at doing its job. I disagree with the drop. Keep it at B+.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

I might as well nominate my own mon.

B -> B+
With Azumarill out of the picture and scarf Hydreigon on the downturn, Haxorus now has a bit more breathing room to play with its massive 147 base attack, the 2nd highest in the tier only behind Mega-Beedrill. Its 97 base speed, while not great (it really sucks to not outspeed Hydreigon), is enough to get by in a metagame that seems to be slowing down a bit, allowing it to run wild. Plus with balance and stall teams on the rise, it can also be a nice wincon once all of the walls have been softened up a bit, seeing as after 1 dragon dance it hits 483 speed and 590 attack if it's jolly. Plus, it's 1 of 2 physical dragon types, the other being Mega-Altaria, which does not pack the sheer power that Haxorus has and also takes up the mega slot. It still has its weaknesses, but this is definitely one of the more underrated mons of UU.

 

[Bebo]

I might as well nominate my own mon.

View attachment 115338B -> B+
With Azumarill out of the picture and scarf Hydreigon on the downturn, Haxorus now has a bit more breathing room to play with its massive 147 base attack, the 2nd highest in the tier only behind Mega-Beedrill. Its 97 base speed, while not great (it really sucks to not outspeed Hydreigon), is enough to get by in a metagame that seems to be slowing down a bit, allowing it to run wild. Plus with balance and stall teams on the rise, it can also be a nice wincon once all of the walls have been softened up a bit, seeing as after 1 dragon dance it hits 483 speed and 590 attack if it's jolly. Plus, it's 1 of 2 physical dragon types, the other being Mega-Altaria, which does not pack the sheer power that Haxorus has and also takes up the mega slot. It still has its weaknesses, but this is definitely one of the more underrated mons of UU.

As much as I love Haxorus I disagree with this nom not being able to outspeed the most common scarfers which are hydreigon and latias is one big L as they just outspeed and ohko you. Another big downfall of Haxorus is how frail it is it dies to both a +2 machpunch breloom and a +2 bulletpunch offensive scizor and really can’t switch into anything safely. Haxorus is also in my opinion very dependent of its z move much like decidueye Haxorus usually most of the time gets 1 big kill with its z then it really can’t break through the team which is its main job. As you said Haxorus can also break through balance but lots of mons can do that much better so I personally think Haxorus would probably be best for a stall matchup which you won’t see as much as balance. Don’t get me wrong though Haxorus is amazing vs stall but I don’t think that’s enough to bump it up to a B+. M-Altaria which always will live a +1 poison jab can just ohko Haxorus back same as togekiss if it has dazzling gleam. Haxorus also literally can’t setup vs ho since as I said earlier it’s frail which sometimes makes it hard for it to setup without being in range of a scizor or breloom priority

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

As much as I love Haxorus I disagree with this nom not being able to outspeed the most common scarfers which are hydreigon and latias is one big L as they just outspeed and ohko you. Another big downfall of Haxorus is how frail it is it dies to both a +2 machpunch breloom and a +2 bulletpunch offensive scizor and really can’t switch into anything safely. Haxorus is also in my opinion very dependent of its z move much like decidueye Haxorus usually most of the time gets 1 big kill with its z then it really can’t break through the team which is its main job. As you said Haxorus can also break through balance but lots of mons can do that much better so I personally think Haxorus would probably be best for a stall matchup which you won’t see as much as balance. Don’t get me wrong though Haxorus is amazing vs stall but I don’t think that’s enough to bump it up to a B+. M-Altaria which always will live a +1 poison jab can just ohko Haxorus back same as togekiss if it has dazzling gleam. Haxorus also literally can’t setup vs ho since as I said earlier it’s frail which sometimes makes it hard for it to setup without being in range of a scizor or breloom priority

Haxorus isn't exactly meant to be bulky. 76/90/70 isn't frail though. Frail would be something like Breloom or Gengar. They can't take a hit to save their life. The scarfer issue is definitely a problem, and I addressed it a bit in my original nomination. Haxorus almost always runs Dragonium Z for its Z-move. Everything else is super uncommon. It can also run LO or even Lum Berry. As for the whole "gets one big kill then can't break through", that's completely false. At +1, it can OHKO about 1/2 of the tier without LO, and 2/3 with LO. If that's not breaking through the team, then I don't know what is. I also never said it could break through balance, I said it could be a wincon for balance and stall teams once pokemon have been weakened. It doesn't even have to be weakened that much. And the swords dance set is even better at being a wincon against balance and stall (which are rapidly rising in popularity) due to faster set-up of attack boosts. As for your Mega-Altaria comment about it not dying when hit with Poison jab, you're kinda right. For any offensive set, it kills if rocks are up without LO. With LO, it kills no matter what. As for the support set, you are right. LO +1 poison jab does ~85% max. Not a kill even with rocks.

CALCS
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 264-312 (90.7 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 343-406 (117.8 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega: 252-299 (71.3 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Jade]

I might as well nominate my own mon.

View attachment 115338B -> B+
With Azumarill out of the picture and scarf Hydreigon on the downturn, Haxorus now has a bit more breathing room to play with its massive 147 base attack, the 2nd highest in the tier only behind Mega-Beedrill. Its 97 base speed, while not great (it really sucks to not outspeed Hydreigon), is enough to get by in a metagame that seems to be slowing down a bit, allowing it to run wild. Plus with balance and stall teams on the rise, it can also be a nice wincon once all of the walls have been softened up a bit, seeing as after 1 dragon dance it hits 483 speed and 590 attack if it's jolly. Plus, it's 1 of 2 physical dragon types, the other being Mega-Altaria, which does not pack the sheer power that Haxorus has and also takes up the mega slot. It still has its weaknesses, but this is definitely one of the more underrated mons of UU.

Have to agree with Bebo here, I just dont think Haxorus is B+. Fat is actually on the decline and offense is rising. I think along the ranks of things like Slowbro is fair. The common priorities in Scizors Bullet Punch and Brelooms Mach Punch stop it from sweeping against many teams, as well as Scarfers like Latias and Hydreigon being everywhere. Its also not very splashable, offering little defensive utility as well. Life Orb Haxorus is frailer and also cant break through stall as well as Dragonium Z. Lets take a look at the B+ ranks and see how it holds up. Note: Discussion points like Doom to B will not be counted.

blurbs

Deserved. While not that splashable, its pretty much a staple on HO and can be a late-game cleaner with NP or speed control with Choice Scarf.

Deserved. Splashable, checks the arguably most broken mon in the tier, and can be a good stallbreaker once Blissey is chipped.

Deserved. Splashable, good stallbreaker, and soft checks a lot of the tier.

Deserved. Decently splashable, can act as an interesting stallbreaker with Super Fang + Taunt, and checks Breloom.

Deserved. Splashable, good Defogger, and acts as a good check to non-Electrium Z Latias (and broken Primarina!).

Deserved. Excellent fat breaker, decently splashable.

Deserved. Not that splashable, but good late-game sweeper and can even function as a Pursuit trapper.

Deserved. Though Spikestack is on the decline, checking things like Hydreigon is really nice.

Deserved. Specs Kyurem has absolutely no switch ins besides Primarina and Blissey (latter gets beaten by SubRoost).

Deserved. Really hard for offense to switch into, and can be an interesting stallbreaker with Superpower.

Deserved. Good bird check, splashable, and versatile.

Deserved. Defo top 5 Defogger, and abuses all the bulky Grounds in the tier right now.

Deserved. Good late-game sweeper, and even a wall on some Stall and Balance builds.

Deserved. Good cleric and splashable.

Deserved. Its CB set is extremely hard to switch into, and SD is good as well.

Deserved. Specs is a good wallbreaker, and mixed Superpower is decent as well as Z-Solar Beam.

You get the idea. Haxorus just isn't B+ worthy imo. It has meh bulk, dislikes the common priority cores in Breloom + Scizor (especially with Scizor being in almost 1/2 of teams), isn't as splashable as the things in B+, dislikes fat on the decline, and dislikes Latias and Hydreigon being so common.

 

[Adaam]

I've been out of the game for a bit, but I noticed Talonflame stuck in the bowels of C+, which was weird considering Moltres is in A-. It looks like Scizor still runs the tier, so an offensive sweeper that turns it into a liability + 126 base speed should be much higher.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-746836211

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-746796067

These are only ladder replays so not the best but they demonstrate its ability to abuse some of the most common stuff in the tier. Scizor/Loom/Gliscor/M-Alt/Serp are potential SD fodder, and this is looking at A+ and S rankers. I've also seen like 2 Slowbros in over 100 ladder games so free Talonflame to B, toss a like if you agree :)

 

[SilvioGuacamole]

Krookodile to A

I feel like this mon’s flown under the radar a little in recent weeks, with the meta really shifting in it’s favour.

Krook offers fantastic role compression in a metagame filled with huge threats. This thing can be a pursuit trapper, a scarfer, am electric immunity and a rocker (not advisable on scarf but hey ho) in one slot, as well as retaining coverage to hit Scizor and opposing Breloom in fire fang. It can even run sets like ground z taunt to annoy bulkier builds, creating an element of unpredictablity at team preview.

The rise of trappable mons in Gengar, Latias and Chandelure to respond to Breloom’s increased viability has massively benefitted Krook, as well as the recent usage drop in Gliscor. Glisc not being omnipresent helps scarf krook do it’s job beyond turn 2 while the usage bump Latias has received in recent weeks (see UUPL usage stats), often being the most used SM UU mon, has also helped, providing it with a pursuit target and making the lati user reluctant to lock into psychic, which is very valuable in a meta with so many fairies.

This thing is also incredibly splashable, arguably more so than anything in A/A-. Consider the amount of team support Moltres requires to function effectively compared to that of Krook, as well as the staggering UUPL usage stats (Krook has been 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 7th most used as well as 3rd cumulatively) really shows how easy it is to slap this mon on a build.

Krookodile doesn’t see the ladder usage of some of the A mons but it’s tournament usage, overall excellent role compression and viability as well as the ability to annoy any of it’s switch ins with knock off (baring mega alt, which doesn’t appreciate EQ) means it definitely warrants a rise.

 

[KM]

hi i'm literally making these noms because I just finished a ladder run with a team that used all of them but i actually do have reasons so:



1. Terrakion from B+ -> A (or A-)

I think it's pretty obvious how terrakion benefitted from Azu being banned, but beyond that he also matches up really well into a lot of the recent metagame trends that have followed. SD Terrak is pretty much the premier stall breaker, and while it's weak against the two main priority users in the tier (Scizor and Loom), it also pressures those pokemon to use their priority moves in a way that can further benefit the user (e.g. Magtrapping). Terrakion also has a number of other sets that are easily viable in the metagame -- Sash lead, scarf, double dance, etc.

The variant I ran was LO SD Terrakion, and it was instrumental in getting me over 1700. Here's some quick calcs for those who haven't used the set.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 391-461 (97.5 - 114.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 348-411 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Poison Heal
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 421-497 (87.5 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 363-427 (105.8 - 124.4%)


etc etc. The only thing that really checks Terrakion (at least this set) is Doublade, and that's pretty uncommon.

On the defensive side, it's relevant that Terrakion doesn't die to bulky scizor (and easily OHKOS at +2), and also dodges the OHKO from toxic orb Loom. in other words -- even its biggest weaknesses require significant chip damage before or the most offensive sets in order to not just die themselves.

2. Rotom-C from B+ -> A-

This one definitely seems a little wild, but Rotom-C is one of the premier defoggers in this meta, especially for VoltTurn teams (which are very good right now). The ability to switch in on (due to levitate) and either Defog or threaten all of the most popular SR users right now (Rhyperior, Swampert, Seismitoad, Hippo, Gliscor) combined with volt switch provides insane tempo and reliable hazard control, and options like Pain Split or Hidden Power fire either improve your stall matchup or your scizor weakness. The set I've personally been using is a Bloom Doom set with max SpA and Spe (defog, pain split, VS, LS), and it's honestly been pretty insane.

252 SpA Rotom-Mow Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 348-411 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manectric-Mega: 331-390 (117.7 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 207-244 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I include the breloom calculation because it's actually really relevant to how Rotom-C can act as an offensive breloom check for teams who don't want to run things like Celebi or chesto Crobat or whatever. Rotom-C is uniquely one of the only defoggers in the tier who isn't setup bait really anything other than like, Sub mega-sceptile? It even matches up well against Scizor -- a steel immunity and the threat of HP Fire will prevent pretty much every variant from using you as set-up bait.

3. Yanmega from C+ -> B-

This one is fully, 100%, absolutely based on my team and the specific Yanmega set I run (endure reversal) . I'll go more into depth into how it works in my RMT, which will either be out in an hour or is already out depending on when you're reading this, but the jist is that you remove priority users, endure on any number of very common pokemon that would otherwise be yanmega checks / counters (and who essentially have to hit you with a special effective attack) like Mega-Aero, Nihilego, Mega - Manectric, Mega-Sharpedo, etc etc, then sweep.

some quick calcs:

+2 0 Atk Yanmega Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 84-100 (117 - 140%)
+2 0 Atk Yanmega Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 40-48 (107 - 129%)
+2 252+ SpA Yanmega Air Slash vs. 244 HP / 208 SpD Gliscor: 246-291 (69.8 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ SpA Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 390-460 (81 - 95.6%)

beyond that, yanmega pretty much OHKOs everything in the tier except for full health bulkymons and defensive fairies

i want to be very clear here. I'm not saying that this gimmick set alone makes Yanmega a B or B- rank mon, or that it's meta-defining, or anything like that. my point is that there is another way to use yanmega that -- when factored in playing against it -- makes it more threatening, more variable, and harder to play around. The set -- while perhaps not groundbreaking, has in my opinion proven itself to be relevant enough to climb to over 1700 with (and a very good many of those games were because of Yanmega, not in spite of it), and I think the added context of that set being viable warrants a bump in viability.

shrug emoji

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Hey, I'd like to make a quick and simple lower-ranks nomination for a rise that I've discussed with a few folks about.

C- --> C (Maybe c+? idk.)

I've been getting pretty jived on seismitoad as of late. Specifically, the offensive Seis set has piqued my interest. Seismitoad's enhanced Speed tier, access to Water Absorb, and nifty coverage in Sludge Wave give it a distinct offensive niche as a water/ground stealth rock user over Swampert in some situations. It can be EV'd to outspeed either Adamant Scizor or Adamant Breloom, depending on the team's needs, but I generally prefer outspeeding Scizor:

the set i'm using

Dwayne (Seismitoad) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Hydro Pump
- Sludge Wave

Defensive sets are still fine as well on teams that just need a water-immune water/ground bulky rocker to better handle mons like volcanion, of course. However, I personally think the increased traction this set has been getting (from what I can see, anyway) and the new niche said sets gave it definitely give Seismitoad a placement at least above the likes of Gastrodon right now.

 

[AJ]

Reuniclus has become one of the least used Pokemon in this entire tier. People are always asking for Pokemon that beat stall and check Breloom and Reuniclus is that Pokemon. I would even argue that it is the best stallbreaker there is. If you think about it, Reuniclus is immune to all status, generally bulky, and very offensive which makes it the perfect check to Bliss, Alo, and Quag. The only Pokemon used on stall that have good match ups against Reuniclus are Maggron, Muk, and Scizor. I can say for a fact the only people I've seen use Scizor are Pif and Bugz. Muk used to be seen on stall teams like Misa and Moute but has seen increasingly less stall usage.

Set

Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Energy Ball
- Recover

This set is ev'd to live Heavy Slams from Maggron and 2hko Pyukumuku after rocks and leftovers. 100% credit to Sage for making this set!

Proof

0 Atk Aggron-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Reuniclus: 177-208 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
76+ SpA Reuniclus Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Pyukumuku: 142-168 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Reuniclus is the perfect switch in to common Pokemon like Swampert, Latias, Gliscor, Cobalion, etc. It can set up on many Pokemon and is a sure way to 6-0 stall in under 40 turns. Reuniclus has a niche of beating stall but it also has other uses.

I think Reuniclus should be either B- or B tier so I am nominating it. Feel free to comment with your thoughts, sadly I didnt save any replays and I am too tired to do more battles. Thanks for reading!

 

[Jade]

View attachment 116247
Reuniclus has become one of the least used Pokemon in this entire tier. People are always asking for Pokemon that beat stall and check Breloom and Reuniclus is that Pokemon. I would even argue that it is the best stallbreaker there is. If you think about it, Reuniclus is immune to all status, generally bulky, and very offensive which makes it the perfect check to Bliss, Alo, and Quag. The only Pokemon used on stall that have good match ups against Reuniclus are Maggron, Muk, and Scizor. I can say for a fact the only people I've seen use Scizor are Pif and Bugz. Muk used to be seen on stall teams like Misa and Moute but has seen increasingly less stall usage.

Set

Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Energy Ball
- Recover

This set is ev'd to live Heavy Slams from Maggron and 2hko Pyukumuku after rocks and leftovers. 100% credit to Sage for making this set!

Proof

0 Atk Aggron-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Reuniclus: 177-208 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
76+ SpA Reuniclus Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Pyukumuku: 142-168 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Reuniclus is the perfect switch in to common Pokemon like Swampert, Latias, Gliscor, Cobalion, etc. It can set up on many Pokemon and is a sure way to 6-0 stall in under 40 turns. Reuniclus has a niche of beating stall but it also has other uses.

I think Reuniclus should be either B- or B tier so I am nominating it. Feel free to comment with your thoughts, sadly I didnt save any replays and I am too tired to do more battles. Thanks for reading!

I disagree with this nomination. First off, SD Gliscor and Steelium Z Cobalion beat you at +2. Dragonium Z Latias also does minimum 78%. +2 Breloom Bullet Seed does a lot, and it can even Spore you and SD up safely if its Sash. The commonness of Pursuit users such as Krookodile, Scizor (which the set is completely walled by), Mega Aerodactyl, and more certainly doeskin help it. I certainly wouldn't call it a better stallbreaker than Haxorus honestly. You say it 6-0s stall, then you precede to name 3 mons commonly found on stall that give it trouble. Outside of the stall m/u, it's rather bad. The aforementioned mons are rather common on many types of offense and just give it a hard time. Being walled by Steel types, which are pretty much a staple on every team at this point of the meta is never good. Neither is giving Scizor free turns. Overrall, it faces competition from other Psychic types such as Latias, Celebi, Starmie, and more. Therefore, I do not believe it should rise. If anything, it should drop due to the aforementioned reasons.

 

[slated]

I disagree with this nomination. First off, SD Gliscor and Steelium Z Cobalion beat you at +2. +2 Breloom Bullet Seed does a lot, and it can even Spore you and SD up safely if its Sash. The commonness of Pursuit users such as Krookodile, Scizor (which the set is completely walled by), Mega Aerodactyl, and more certainly doeskin help it. I certainly wouldn't call it a better stallbreaker than Haxorus honestly. You say it 6-0s stall, then you precede to name 3 mons commonly found on stall that give it trouble. Being walled by Steel types, which are pretty much a staple on every team at this point of the meta is never good. Neither is giving Scizor free turns. Overrall, it faces competition from other Psychic types such as Latias, Celebi, Starmie, and more. Therefore, I do not believe it should rise. If anything, it should drop due to the aforementioned reasons.

I'm not really sure Reuniclus fills the same roles as "other psychic types", for one. Latias, Celebi and Starmie are fast Psychic-types used on offense that aren't typically used as stallbreakers; sure, Latias can be used as a stallbreaker with a sub+cm set or just a Z set to break through walls after a few CM boosts, and Celebi can be used as a Nasty Plot user to break through walls with Z-Earth Power to beat Steel-types like Aggron and AV Muk, but you certainly can't discount that Reuniclus has a much better matchup against stall than any of the other psychic types in the tier. No pokemon 6-0's stall, it's a dumb argument. While I agree that Haxorus has a slightly better matchup versus stall, it's hard to discount that once the Steel-type is removed, Reuniclus beats stall teams by itself. Not only that, it's able to break through common balance cores like sylveon/aggron/swampert stuff which is super common on the ladder. the only thing I will say about reuniclus is that its matchup vs. offense is worse than awful, as it doesn't really have the bulk or typing to check a lot of common offensive pokemon. However, considering this is its main flaw, and it's able to almost beat entire stall teams by itself as well as having a solid matchup vs. the bulky teams being seen on ladder, I would argue it deserves B-. Its niche is having a great matchup vs. bulky teams and it does this almost as well as Haxorus, and being one rank below Haxorus seems alright to me. In my opinion it's at least even with Snorlax, Mandibuzz and Cofagrigus in terms of viability. Being C+ just doesn't suit it imo.

 

[palkia246]

Terrakion B+ -> A-: Agree
This guy is really good right now. Its Choice Band set has seen a surge in usage and is almost always devastating for either stall or bulky offense, the two most popular builds in the metagame, to try dealing with. Its Swords Dance set also has a really strong matchup against metagame trends, and it highly appreciated Azumarill's departure. I think a rise is certainly in order and like before, it's now better than Heracross again.

Rotom-C B+ -> A-: Agree
Amazing defogger. It forces out almost every rocker that's been gaining traction in recent weeks, largely in part due to the surge in usage of Ground-types that happen to be these rockers. It has an outstanding offensive typing, preying on the current viability of several Water- and Flying-types, and as an offensive Pokemon provides so much role compression in one slot (pivoting, hazard removing, water check) that it's kind of ridiculous. I definitely agree that cut is in a better place than it's ever been.