CAP 25 - Part 8 - Stat Spread Discussion

[Deck Knight]

Please pay very close attention to jas61292 throughout this thread. Given the ambitious nature of CAP 25, some modifications at his and topic leader reachzero's direction may be warranted.

In this thread, stat limits for CAP 25 be discussed, and once the Stats Leader determines limits you may then, and only then, post work-in-progress and final stat spreads for the community and the TLT's consideration, and make comments on other peoples' submissions. The Stats Leader, jas61292 will decide on a slate for voting based on the community's input.

The current BSR Calculator can be downloaded here: https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B0yPinDCLshXUERRd0IyVUxjS1U

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CAP 25 so far:

Topic Leader: reachzero

Topic Leadership Team:
EpicUmbreon29 - Typing
snake_rattler - Ability
jas61292 - Stats
cbrevan - Movepool

Name: Starter Trio CAPs

Description: This CAP is not one Pokemon, but three seperate Pokemon, based off of a Grass/Water/Fire starter trio.

Explanation: There is rarely such thing as a competitively viable starter Pokemon in the OU metagame, rare exceptions being Serperior, Greninja, and Blaziken for their insanely powerful abilities, and Infernape for his speed and movepool. Running three seperate CAP Processes with different Concepts can be loads of fun, and a nice way to celebrate CAP with our own starter trio! I'd love to see what the artists can come up with, and what pre-evos will be made alongside this trio, as well.
I've spoken to Birkal about this framework, and I've decided that this framework would definitely limit the Typing stage of each CAP, but not necessarily limit the Abilities stages, as Overgrow, Torrent, and Blaze aren't very competitively viable, and not necessarily limit the Stats stages, as starter trios tend not to share the same BSTs, giving us flexibility with where and how we want to place stats, especially with each "starter" most likely having a different concept from the others.

Possible Questions:
Is it possible to create a fully competitively viable Grass/Water/Fire trio?
What can be learned from a trio of Pokemon that will mostly likely check, if not counter, each other in a Rock Paper Scissors manner?
Exactly what does it take to create a fully competitively viable starter trio, something unprecedented in all of official, competitive Pokemon?

Of course, feedback is all but begged for as we work to flesh out this framework!

Starter Fact Sheet

Final Submission

• Name - Astounding Ability Actualization (Triple A)
• Description - These Pokemon each maximize the potential of their given, separate abilities by coordinating their movepools and that ability's competitive effect.
• Justification - This is an Actualization concept much like Cyclohm's original "Neglected Ability." In my research on what made Pokemon with "Starter Level" stats effective, the common denominator was they all had abilities they used to full effect with their other competitive aspects. This framework gives us a unique opportunity to A-B test some fairly powerful abilities we usually shy away from and bring out an effective competitive starter trio.
• Questions To Be Answered -
  • Which Abilities are best suited to a full, comprehensive exploration of their specific mechanics?
  • Why does Ability seem to be the common factor in taking "starter-esque" Pokemon into prominence (e.g. Protean and Battle Bond Greninja, Contrary Serperior, Speed Boost Blaziken to Ubers, etc.)
  • What is the threshold where maximizing an ability goes toi far, such as Blaziken's combination of Swords Dance, strong attack and mid-grade speed, and high BP STABS with Speed Boost or Protean Greninja's huge speed and just-varied enough movepool in prior Generations?
  • How will introducing three specialized Pokemon into the metagame at once impact it overall?
  • Which type combinations along with the starter types are best suited to maximizing the potential of a specific ability, and why?
• Explanation - Competitive Pokemon has suffered from a massive power creep for a long time. In order for a Pokemon to be effective, not only does it have to be fairly good generally, it also can't be directly outclassed. Considering our Framework, our Pokemon are already competing against Heatran/Volcarona, Toxapex/Keldeo/Greninja, and Ferrothorn/Kartana for offensive or defensive roles. However, each of those Pokemon have their own flaws that give our FWG CAP Trio space to explore if we are focused on a key niche for each of them.
  
  Let's take Grass for example, and Tough Claws. Tough Claws boosts one of the most incredibly CAP-relevant moves, Grass Knot, because it is a special contact attack. Only Mega Metagross ever even came close to utilizing this combination, and Mega-Meta was banned (for other reasons, of course). Grass could also use it's huge number of healing options with Triage, including priority Strength Sap that even outruns Bullet Punch. Nearly every Fire attack has a secondary effect chance perfect for Serene Grace or Sheer Force. Water has a few specific moves that would also love Serene Grace, but would also appreciate breaking through Gastrodon and Mollux with Mold Breaker. Suffice it to say, this concept gives us an ability to meet our Framework demands and think through a huge combination of synergistic types and abilities in a single project.

CAP 25g

Typing: Grass/Electric
Threats Conclusion: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7875516
Ability: Overgrow/Galvanize

CAP 25f

Typing: Fire/Ground
Threats Conclusion: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7870058
Ability: Blaze/Technician

CAP 25w

Typing: Water/Bug
Threats Conclusion: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7872739
Ability: Torrent/Poison Heal

 

[jas61292]

Hi everyone.

As you know, we are creating a trio of starter Pokemon for this project, and, as such, there are certain limitations that this places on our stats. While I will get into this more in depth on this when we move on to the actual stat spread submissions, I do just want to note that we will generally need to be more conservative all around than we have typically done, and this may mean it is not always be possible to fit our stats as perfectly to our goals as we normally would. So, just keep that in mind as we go through this thread.

To begin, I would like to have some discussions about the general direction we want stats to go. After we have that settled, then we can dive into the more specific BSR numbers. Here are some fairly basic questions to get us started:

CAP 25g

In our concept assessment, we determined that an offensive or defensive focus would take a back seat to our goal of being specialized and differentiating ourselves from other Pokemon. This lead to our selection of an electric secondary typing and the ability Galvanize. But now we have reached the part of the project where we actually need to decide on statistical direction. So...

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?
Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

CAP 25f

We determined back in concept assessment that our Fire Pokemon was going to have an offensive leaning. Our typing, Fire/Ground, is incredibly potent offensively, and the ability that we selected, Technician, has powerful applications for both physical and special Pokemon. With that in mind...

To most effectively interact with our threats list as we want to, should CAP 25f's primary offensive focus be physical, special, or mixed?
In addition to our offensive effectiveness, are there any important threat interactions that we should be taking into account with regard to CAP 25's defenses?

CAP 25w

The goal of our Water type Pokemon is to be defensive, and to go along with that we have selected Bug type and the ability Poison Heal. These provide a solid generic base for a defensive Pokemon, but does not quite as obviously line up with the projects concept of movepool ability interaction. Regarding that...

Is there a particular direction, physical or special, on either the offensive or defensive side, that would be preferable for taking advantage of ability movepool interaction?
With regard to our threat list, should we be placing a bigger focus, defensively, on the physical or special side of the spectrum?

 

[NumberCruncher]

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?
Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

Galvanize in context of this CAP does three things. It gives CAP STAB on high-powered Normal attacks, which is pretty good. It makes our Normal attacks and statuses hit Revenahnk, Kitsunoh and Necturna, which is great. It keeps us from using Normal utility moves on Ground types, which is horrible.

Obviously a offensive mon would be better for CAPg. A defensive mon gets less utility out of a STAB buff, and trading a Ghost vulnerability for a Ground vulnerability is terrible even in the context of a Grass type, since we don't actually resist Ground.

Electric and Grass have a huge amount of competition on the special end of the spectrum. While Grass is also pretty heavily contested on the physical end, if you want a physical Electric type, you're only real options are Zeraora and, if you're really liberal with your definition, Kyurem-B and Naviathan. Hypothetically, we could go mixed, but our stats are already going to be spread thin, so pure physical is probably best.

To most effectively interact with our threats list as we want to, should CAP 25f's primary offensive focus be physical, special, or mixed?
In addition to our offensive effectiveness, are there any important threat interactions that we should be taking into account with regard to CAP 25's defenses?

This one should probably go mixed. Technician + Hidden Power is such an underutilized strategy that it would feel like we didn't actually fulfill concept if we don't at least address it. At the same time, Ground gets very little to abuse Technician from the special spectrum. Greninja and Infernape set a precedent for strong mixed starters with absolutely dumpster-fire defenses, so that would probably be best for CAPf.

Is there a particular direction, physical or special, on either the offensive or defensive side, that would be preferable for taking advantage of ability movepool interaction?
With regard to our threat list, should we be placing a bigger focus, defensively, on the physical or special side of the spectrum?

For CAPw, we should probably lean physical on the offense. Facade is a universal TM that comboes well with Poison Heal and Bug has straight-up awful special options. CAPw is probably going to run Ye-Olde-Move-that's-Defined-Water-Types-since-Gen-5, but Argh operates just fine running that move on a physical set, so it should be fine. Looking at our threat list, it looks like we can't function as a Special Wall at all, since most of the good Special attackers in the tier are on the threat list. That would lead me to think we need to be physical on both offense and defense.

 

[Roland le preaux]

CAP 25g

In our concept assessment, we determined that an offensive or defensive focus would take a back seat to our goal of being specialized and differentiating ourselves from other Pokemon. This lead to our selection of an electric secondary typing and the ability Galvanize. But now we have reached the part of the project where we actually need to decide on statistical direction. So...

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?
Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

Given that our CAP 25g ability will be Galvanize, which creates no specific defensive value, I think it will be necessary to specialize our stats toward an offensive role. While Grass/Electric has some potential as a defensive typing, given our ability and our base stat limitations I don't think we would be able to compete with Ferrothorn / Pyroak / Malaconda / Tangrowth as a defensive Grass-type.

While I personally dislike using physically offensive Grass-types (because it prevents us from comfortably switching into Scald from Krilowatt, Toxapex, and Naviathan), I do think we will need access to Galvanize-boosted priority in a metagame with Greninja, Syclant, and Mega Crucibelle in order to carve out a threatening niche. Therefore, I would support a physically-oriented CAP 25g stat spread.

 

[faithviolet]

Is there a particular direction, physical or special, on either the offensive or defensive side, that would be preferable for taking advantage of ability movepool interaction?
With regard to our threat list, should we be placing a bigger focus, defensively, on the physical or special side of the spectrum?

CAP 25w: The second question is easier to answer. Almost all of the threatlist that we should be able to switch into use physical Ground or Fighting-type moves. Those resistances are the defensive benefit of our bug-typing, especially the ground one. But if we don't have good physical bulk, it'll be hard to take advantage of these resistances repeatedly, as both fighting- and ground-type attacks are physically biased in the metagame, in part due to the prevalence and power of Earthquake. This leads to the conclusion that we should place a bigger focus on physical defense over special defense for 25w.

The first question to me seems to point in the opposite direction. One category of moves that takes advantage of our ability are those that protect. There are a few protecting moves which trigger if the opponent makes contact, and most contact moves are physical. With more special bulk we can use our ability-synergizing moves to patch up weakness on the physical side, with our bug-type dealing with Earthquake, the most common non-contact physical move.

I guess I believe that if we care a lot about using our ability to the maximum degree possible, we should prioritize special bulk, while if we are satisfied with the default level of ability-interaction, we should prioritize physical bulk. In all cases, the primary focus, per se, should be on how we deal with physical attacks.

 

[Mx]

Hi everyone.

As you know, we are creating a trio of starter Pokemon for this project, and, as such, there are certain limitations that this places on our stats. While I will get into this more in depth on this when we move on to the actual stat spread submissions, I do just want to note that we will generally need to be more conservative all around than we have typically done, and this may mean it is not always be possible to fit our stats as perfectly to our goals as we normally would. So, just keep that in mind as we go through this thread.

To begin, I would like to have some discussions about the general direction we want stats to go. After we have that settled, then we can dive into the more specific BSR numbers. Here are some fairly basic questions to get us started:

CAP 25g

In our concept assessment, we determined that an offensive or defensive focus would take a back seat to our goal of being specialized and differentiating ourselves from other Pokemon. This lead to our selection of an electric secondary typing and the ability Galvanize. But now we have reached the part of the project where we actually need to decide on statistical direction. So...

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?
Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

CAP 25f

We determined back in concept assessment that our Fire Pokemon was going to have an offensive leaning. Our typing, Fire/Ground, is incredibly potent offensively, and the ability that we selected, Technician, has powerful applications for both physical and special Pokemon. With that in mind...

To most effectively interact with our threats list as we want to, should CAP 25f's primary offensive focus be physical, special, or mixed?
In addition to our offensive effectiveness, are there any important threat interactions that we should be taking into account with regard to CAP 25's defenses?

CAP 25w

The goal of our Water type Pokemon is to be defensive, and to go along with that we have selected Bug type and the ability Poison Heal. These provide a solid generic base for a defensive Pokemon, but does not quite as obviously line up with the projects concept of movepool ability interaction. Regarding that...

Is there a particular direction, physical or special, on either the offensive or defensive side, that would be preferable for taking advantage of ability movepool interaction?
With regard to our threat list, should we be placing a bigger focus, defensively, on the physical or special side of the spectrum?

For CAP 25g, I think making a physical attacker would be the optimal choice now that we have Galvanize. Most current Electric-types face the problem of not having a good physical STAB, even Tapu Koko usually goes special despite having a higher Attack stat. This means that by taking the physical route, we can avoid having to compete with most current Electric-types, giving us a more defined niche in the metagame.

For CAP 25f, I think making a mixed attacker with physical bias would be ideal. Because of Technician, If we give put too much emphasis on SpA, then we'd risk making Hidden Power too overwhelming, as it is an universal TM that give us a 90 BP special move of any type we want. This would be hugely restrictive on the rest of the stats and movepool. That being said, going fully physical would also be a mistake in my opinion, Hidden Power is a great move to pair with Technician, and while we need to be careful with it, it would be a shame to not take advantage of it, and we don't even need a very high SpA stat to do it.

Finally for 25w, our threatlist seems to suggest a focus on physical defense, to better take on Zygarde, Revenankh and Mega Gyarados. However, having better special bulk would gives us a better match up against Heatran and Volkraken. I think this is pretty important, because having a bad match-up against these two puts us on direct disadvantage over Arghonaut and Gastrodon, which are capable of beating those without much trouble. For this reasons, I think our stats should have good bulk on both sides, although probably with more emphasis on the special side to improve the match-ups that are not as favorable to us on our typing alone.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?
Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

I'm saying physically offensive, no doubt in my mind.

CAPg has a very unique opportunity here. The biggest struggle with a physical electric type most commonly is the lack of any semi-decent physical attacks, which is terrible to the point where Tapu Koko, who is significantly better physically when it comes to stats, is still using its inferior stats to do more damage. Not counting Fusion Bolt or Bolt Strike (since the users of these moves use it for coverage and the actual user is an Ubers mon) Wild Charge is pretty much the best possible move you can get, and even still its only 90 BP and inflicts recoil. Some Abilities like Sheer Force or Iron Fist could increase the power of moves like Thunder Punch but that really hasn't been explored nor will be for this CAP. The closest thing we have had to a physical Electric in CAP is Zeraora, who is packing the 100 BP reliable Plasma Fists, but its lack of any real offensive presense aside from the risky Choice Band makes it a much weaker mon in CAP compared to our palooza of special attacking electric types like Tapu Koko, Krillowatt, Plasmanta, and Cyclohm.

CAPg does not have this issue. Thanks to Galvanize, CAPg has the entirety of the Normal-type offensive movepool at its disposal to utilize, including a plethora of strong physical moves like Return, (poll jumping redacted) and Double Edge, which are also further boosted thanks to Galvanize. This gives us a very unique chance to explore the possibility of a viable physical electric, where CAPg would otherwise struggle to find ground among the large amount of Electric-type special attackers in the tier, as well as the super popular Jumbao as a special Grass-type.

 

[Wenderz]

Just to be sure, is the rule about naming specific and non-universal-moves still up ? I'd think it's not since it hasn't been mentionned yet but...

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?
Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

I agree with most previous post : CAP 25g seems more suited for an offensive role. With its typing, it would become a Defensive Grass-type that doesn't check Ground-types reliably with an added resistance to Steel, allowing it to check Kartana as well. this leads it to compete with another Grass-type on a similar boat : Pyroak. CAP 25g wouldn't have to worry as much about Stealth Rocks, but in exchange of not being able to counter Jumbao, Magearna and Krilowatt as reliably and to punish Ferro's attempt's to punish with Leech Seed. It could probably still distinguish itself as a Defensive Pokemon with the right stats and movepool, but I think it would be a waste of a potential if we use it like that.

I share the opinion saying that CAP 25G would perform best as a physical attacker as most it could make a very good use of Normal priorities with Galvanize, and the current metagame kinda lacks physical Electrics. With that being written, I think we shouldn't totally dismiss the defensive value of this CAP. Due to having a potentially very powerful priority, we don't need much Speed easier and if we're focused on the physical side, this should let use spread some points in defensives stats. Moreover, Galvanize is can be very useful for an hazard remover, especially on a defensive set that lacks firepower to pressure Ghost, and the Grass-type gives us some interesting moves.

To most effectively interact with our threats list as we want to, should CAP 25f's primary offensive focus be physical, special, or mixed?
In addition to our offensive effectiveness, are there any important threat interactions that we should be taking into account with regard to CAP 25's defenses?

Once again I agree with most people here, Mixed with a physical bias seems to be the way to go. Technician boosted HP can invalidate most of our typical answers and we already have a very solid offensive typing, so having too much Special attack could cause balanc issues. Besides, I think our "best" move to abuse would be a Technician boosted physical Ground move.

I'm aware that CAP 25f is meant to be offensively-oriented and it's likely to have stat spread between Att / Spa / Spe, but I'd happy if it has a bit of Special bulk to make use of its typing defensively, since this same typing made Camerupt-Mega kinda viable in CAP as it allows it to check Koko, Mag, Plasmanta and no Surf/ Earth Power Krilowatt. Even with the BST limitation, I think it's achievable, for instance Greninja doesn't have sky-high offensive stats and is still a very scary Mixed sweeper, and I doubt CAP 25f is going to reach the same speed tier.

Is there a particular direction, physical or special, on either the offensive or defensive side, that would be preferable for taking advantage of ability movepool interaction?
With regard to our threat list, should we be placing a bigger focus, defensively, on the physical or special side of the spectrum?

Before worrying about Fire-types that you want to check with your Water-type, I think we should make sure that CAP 25w actually counters Ground-types like it's meant to be, although I agree that it should still be bulky on the special side. It would be nice to have a decent answer to Greninja, Syclant and potentially CAP 25f with this as well as something that can switch on Toxic variant of Heatran without fearing Z-Solar beam, but being a reliable Volkraken answer without resisting Fire might be too much to ask, especially with the BST limitation.

I don't have a strong opinion on which side CAP 25w should be hitting, so I'm fine with both. I would tend for the Physical side though since it'll be more likely to use Facade under these conditions as well as a priority and a pivot move granted by it's typing, but the Special would work as well because we could make a better use of a Water-type move that burns targets and a Bug-type one that bypass Substitute, useful against most Zygarde.

 

[Guzzy]

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?
Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?
I'm gonna go with the general consensus; 25g should be a physical attacker, and it should probably be somewhat slow with good bulk, since it will probably get a certain powerful Normal-type priority move that's boosted by Galvanize.

To most effectively interact with our threats list as we want to, should CAP 25f's primary offensive focus be physical, special, or mixed?
In addition to our offensive effectiveness, are there any important threat interactions that we should be taking into account with regard to CAP 25's defenses?
Again, I'd go with the consensus here and say 25f should be a speedy mixed attacker with a physical bias; that way, it can take advantage of HP as a coverage move with Technician.

Is there a particular direction, physical or special, on either the offensive or defensive side, that would be preferable for taking advantage of ability movepool interaction?
With regard to our threat list, should we be placing a bigger focus, defensively, on the physical or special side of the spectrum?
Most of the things it switches into are physical attackers, so it should have good physical bulk, but we do need good special bulk to properly check several threats like Greninja and Syclant (and also maybe 25f, in the event it ends up being specially biased); of course, we can probably give it good defensive stats all around since it looks like it's going to be a slow, bulky defensive mon, and we'll likely only give it solid offenses in either Attack or Sp. Attack. As for offenses, I think it would do best with a mostly physical movepool, largely so it could properly take advantage of Facade, a priority move, and a move that gives it the ability to be a slow pivot.

 

[superstrike66]

To most effectively interact with our threats list as we want to, should CAP 25f's primary offensive focus be physical, special, or mixed?
In addition to our offensive effectiveness, are there any important threat interactions that we should be taking into account with regard to CAP 25's defenses?

I think cap 25f should be physical, as there is almost no special ground and fire attacks with 60 bp or under, I don't really see a reason why our fire starter should be special. The only thing I see going for a special focus is a 90 bp hidden power. If we have a physical focus, however, we have more options with our STAB moves, and there are plenty of 60 bp physical attacks with nice side effects. I also think we should have decent defenses, like Wenderz said, as this is a pretty good defensive typing. Also, since many Technician-boosted moves are relatively weak moves, I think we should either go full physical ( my preferred option) or full special, and not have a mixed attacker, as I feel that we'll need as much power as we can get from only one attack stat.

 

[Magic Mayhem Maiden]

To most effectively interact with our threats list as we want to, should CAP 25f's primary offensive focus be physical, special, or mixed?
In addition to our offensive effectiveness, are there any important threat interactions that we should be taking into account with regard to CAP 25's defenses?

Out of the 3, which I originally liked 25g, I like 25f the most now. So because of viable STAB moves with Technician, we have a lot of room. We could go physical with 2 STAB speed control moves and a potential boosted priority move, or use Hidden Power with one boosted Special Fire Type STAB. Remember, even if we don't have a STAB ground type special move, we can always resort to stronger moves. That been said, the main problem with going mixed is that we basically remove half of our threats. If we go special or physical, we have 11 checks, but now we only have 8. But since we are splitting the stats, there may be more opportunity for new checks to block weak attacks. I would like to make it go mixed to utilize great effects and a boosted Hidden Power

Another thing I want to point out is that our moves are not any more stronger, they just have better effects. a 60 BP move will have 90 BP, which is fairly close to the most relevant reliable attack. So I don't think we can really make a over the top powerful Pokémon. I think the better option is to make a Offensive Utility Pokémon, which would put up an offensive presence but also give utility to the team, such as speed control, item destroying, phasing, etc. With so much options, the 4 move syndrome will be very troublesome to this Pokémon, which could balance it out.

 

[Dogfish44]

Gonna talk Grass and Water...

Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

In terms of what we're looking to switch in against, there's no massive bias either way. If we're looking to switch into something like Scarf Volkraen's Fire Blast we need around 101/101 bulk and full investment, whilst 110/105 bulk lets you only invest in HP and be able to tank a FB as long as you don't switch in to be fodder. Unless we're planning for an Assault Vest set to become massively popular, or we're expecting to be notably bulky, then I feel that it's safe to give broadly equal defenses.

Offensively, I think that 25g actualises effectively both from Atk and SpA. SpA actualises some really strong moves, and Special tends to contain the stronger move options that Grass and Electric can offter. Physical instead pulls from options which have some pretty powerful utility available to them, if not the same raw power. I think that because of this, a mixed set with a stat bias towards physical seems to be the way to go.

Is there a particular direction, physical or special, on either the offensive or defensive side, that would be preferable for taking advantage of ability movepool interaction?

Offensively, I must disagree with the trend that we must go Physical in order to actualise Facade. Facade is not a move which I am seeing great need to actualise - 140 BP coverage that hits nothing SE fails to inspire me.

I also don't think we can realistically see usage of a move like Lunge - unless we're getting a speed in the 90s or so, Lunge is really irrelevant to a lot of major threats, and minor threats don't really change.

Offensively I'd rather we look at it from the position of "we actualise in utility and using our bulk", and take a Special approach. This also improves our ability vs physically bulky targets like Landorus-T and Zygarde.

Defensively, I like being able to choose the more I think about it. Higher Physical Defense brings about an easier matchup vs mons we do want to switch into, whilst higher SpD makes usage of our inherent synergy with the Protect++ moves, which tend to want to tank contact (most physical) moves.

 

[Deck Knight]

CAP 25g

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?
Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

While there are support moves that can be utilized with Galvanize, Galvanize also has an immunity and trading Ghost for Ground is not a good tradeoff. As such, Galvanize is best utilized in a powerful offensive role. Generally speaking this ought to lead to physical offensive focus because the lion's share of Normal's useful or unique options are physical attacks, while Normal's Special Attacks bypass Substitute. A useful quality in the abstract, but not in the specific sense when the most threatening Sub abusers currently are Necturna (resists) and Zygarde (immune).

Arguably 25g could either go with a Blaziken-like route of powerful offense and middling speed, or something more akin to a physically oriented Serperior with better offense.

CAP 25f

To most effectively interact with our threats list as we want to, should CAP 25f's primary offensive focus be physical, special, or mixed?
In addition to our offensive effectiveness, are there any important threat interactions that we should be taking into account with regard to CAP 25's defenses?

I also support a physical biased mixed attacker. Technician Hidden Power inherently allows for a broad array of coverage, and Fire/Ground has multiple competent special STAB options with or without Tech. Being able to utilize some of these options would be beneficial, but the most useful STAB Tech moves tend to be physical (priority attacks, multi-hit moves).

CAP 25w

Is there a particular direction, physical or special, on either the offensive or defensive side, that would be preferable for taking advantage of ability movepool interaction?
With regard to our threat list, should we be placing a bigger focus, defensively, on the physical or special side of the spectrum?

One thing I noticed immediately about 25w is its interaction with the most common coverage combinations: Rock/Ground, Ground/Flying, Ice/Electric - it resists one of them and is weak to the other. Why is that relevant? Because one of the most useful interactions Poison Heal has is with the move Substitute. Behind a Substitute, 25W would be safe to follow up with one of several moves that limit an opponent's move choices and be safe to Substitute again. Since Poison Heal restores the Substitute's HP in 2 rounds instead of 4 like Leftovers, this combination will make 25w difficult to take down. This makes it a nightmare specifically for Choiced Pokemon, even the ones with Trick as they won't exactly enjoy changing out for a Toxic Orb. 25w also isn't susceptible to the one thing that tends to shut down these slower strategies in Toxic.

Now add one more element: 25w can also potentially utilize pivot moves as a slow pivot. Meaning it (or its Sub) can tank an attack, and your next Pokemon can set up on opponents it normally couldn't because it feared that one specific move. No other Pokemon currently does this as they either don't have the combination or are too offensively oriented or fast to make full use of move disabling + slow pivot.

What does this mean for stat bias? Generally speaking that 25W ought to be bulky enough to put up a Substitute after Stealth Rock, so a directed focus is better than attempting true mixed bulk. 25W has a much better matchup against physical attackers with its resistances to Ground, Steel, and Fighting so those seem to be the best moves ones to capitalize on. Rock is mostly physical (bar the odd Strategem) and Flying has representatives on both sides, but bearing in mind how good 25W is with Substitute, Z-Fly and Z-Bounce are easy to handle once the Z-Move is evaded. Sometimes this might mean taking the unboosted attack and then Subbing afterward, cementing the win.

 

[david0895]

CAP 25g

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

Since 25g typing is not defensive, we should use our resources into the offense. Also, since it is stopped by Dragon-, Steel- and Grass types the physical side should be better since we avoid the possbility of using Hidden Power that can limit their switch-ins, maybe a mixed option can be good, but most of its targets have an high Defense, so Attack needs to be looked more.

CAP 25f

To most effectively interact with our threats list as we want to, should CAP 25f's primary offensive focus be physical, special, or mixed? In addition to our offensive effectiveness, are there any important threat interactions that we should be taking into account with regard to CAP 25's defenses?

Again Hidden Power creates problems with most of its counters, but this time with a lot of 4x, so physical is definitely the best option. Also it might need some investiments to take some niche coverage like Superpower from Scizor or more in general, HP Ice

CAP 25w

Is there a particular direction, physical or special, on either the offensive or defensive side, that would be preferable for taking advantage of ability movepool interaction? With regard to our threat list, should we be placing a bigger focus, defensively, on the physical or special side of the spectrum?

Most of the target list are physical so Defense should be a priority. Also, since they fear a burn from Scald, so a decent SpA can be a good combo to force them out

 

[xurkitrium-z]

Is there a particular direction, physical or special, on either the offensive or defensive side, that would be preferable for taking advantage of ability movepool interaction?
With regard to our threat list, should we be placing a bigger focus, defensively, on the physical or special side of the spectrum?

Offensively, a physical 25w lets us potentially benefit from Facade, as well as utility in STAB Leech Life and U-Turn, and priority in the forms of Aqua Jet and First Impression. I strongly think 25w should focus on being a physical attacker. Defensively, looking at the threatlist, nearly all of 25w's switch-ins are powerful physical attackers. This imo pretty easily cements that 25w needs high physical defense to be able to effectively switch in.

 

[Roland le preaux]

...25g should be a physical attacker, and it should probably be somewhat slow with good bulk, since it will probably get a certain powerful Normal-type priority move that's boosted by Galvanize.

Arguably 25g could either go with a Blaziken-like route of powerful offense and middling speed, or something more akin to a physically oriented Serperior with better offense.

I respectfully disagree that CAP 25g could/should be a slow attacker.

Firstly, I think that any physical set for 25g needs setup paired with its priority in order to create the necessary offensive pressure to find a place in the CAP metagame. Given that it's a Grass-type, and nearly all grass-types get access to certain Attack-boosting moves, I think that's not a wild assumption to work with.

If we are therefore to imagine CAP 25g as a potential setup- and priority-based physical attacker, I think there is a certain speed threshold it needs to meet in order to have viability. It should probably be slower than other sweepers (which is fair if it is to have strong priority attacks) such as Cawmodore, Syclant, and Mega Crucibelle, but it should be faster than most powerful wallbreakers, such as Plasmanta and Colossoil. I say this because I think any offensive set for 25g needs to threaten setup without being easily OKHO'd by opposing breakers.

For example, if the CAP 25g player accurately predicts the opponent to switch out its Charizard Y and therefore uses a boosting move as the opponent brings in Colossoil, they should be able to threaten a Grass-move on that Colossoil before being potentially smacked by a Guts-boosted Knock Off. Without being able to take advantage of those setup opportunities, 25g is going to really struggle. In my opinion, at +2 Attack it should be able to power through mons like Colossoil and Excadrill and at least be able to weaken or take out weakened versions of checks like Zygarde, Plasmanta, and Mega Venusaur. If not, I think 25g will be simply be too easily revenge killed to survive in the CAP metagame.

 

[Pipotchi]

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?

I think mixed is the best execution of the concept for 25G because Galvanize doesnt have a high number of usable moves on either side alone- not only that but special side has options that allow it to go mixed with even the bare minimum special investment and this allows it to "specialize" since defensive mons like Zapdos that wall all the other physical grass types wont be able to wall our mixed set.
I also believe that boosting is not the way to get through Tomo with the physical set (which everyone i think is insinuating will happen) but a mixed set actually threatens Tomo without needing to become a sweeper born from hell itself. Seriously, any set that can beat Tomo with setup + prio is far too centralizing and will push mons out of the metagame. You guys tryna make a better Talonflame? :P

 

[BlueRay]

CAP 25g

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?
Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

Our Grass Starter should be oriented more towards an offensive role as there aren't many Grass Pkm known for their power, and its electric type would set it apart from the others. Because with Galvanize you have an easy way to deal with Celesteela, Skarmory, and the rest of the Pkm it is supposed to switch in and threaten them. And while I'm at it, I would argue that a physical set would be more effective than a special one even though the Pkm from the list tend to invest their EVs into their Defense. Clefable and Naviathan make sometimes use of Calm Mind, so instead of resorting to a move such as Tail Glow or Calm Mind why not pressuring them immediately? If CAP 25 g were a special sweeper, it would only encourage those Pkm to use Calm Mind and heal off the damage. It wouldn't be a good situation for our Grass starter. And then, there's Crucibelle that's rather weak on the physical side, but strong on the special side. If CAP 25 g really wants to threaten it, then I would strongly recommend a focus on Attack and neglect Special Attack. Even more so when we need all the base stats points to make CAP 25 g viable.
Also, I wouldn't make its Attack too high. I would recommend an average attack stat because with Galvanize and Life Orb/Choice Band you have enough power to OHKO or 2HKO most if not all Pkm from the list. Another reason for an average attack stat is that you need to conserve as many points as possible to invest in its bulk if you want CAP 25 g to switch in certain Pkm. While looking through the list, I noticed that most Pkm from the list are rather Pkm having a respectable Special Attack stat. So I'd suggest that our Grass starter should have a higher Special Defense than Defense. I'd also say that the difference between these two stats shouldn't be too much as our Grass Starter should be able to stomach Kartana's attacks even after a boost and Stealth Rocks/Spikes on the field.

So, to sum up:
- offensive role with a focus on a physical set; average attack stat
- some bulk on the special and physical side; stronger emphasis on the special side

 

[pastafari]

Regarding CAP25f, I think this mon should be oriented towards a Physical Offense. Technician Hidden Power of choice with the current lower offensive stat limits (Delphox's Attack at 69) can mess with the current C&C list even in the worst case scenario (Jolly @ 0 EVs).
Now, I don't know how bad it could be, but going mixed will leave us at a situation in team building where oue choose what walls this CAP, according to the HP type selected.

Regarding CAP25g, the greatest asset of -ate abilities is the additional power, so I think that an offensive role is more convenient for this one. At first glance, a Physical oriented one is great, given the wide array of options available: priority, hazard removal, status punishing, and overall high power moves. Another option is a mixed, physical-biased attacker, as Special normal moves have the niche to bypass subs.

 

[Raikoben]

I agree with the mixed for CAP25g. In order to focus and improve our "Unique niche" concept, mixed is probably the best way to go. Going physical when Kartana exists and being BST limited could bring us a totally outclassed mon. I know CAP25g different type from Kartana could still make a viable phsyical attacker but no other Grass type can run a mixed offensive set and Galvanize will help us to have a very strong STAB move even when our BST is limited and we could run a not so impresive offensive stats due to being mixed.

I hope to have expressed well

 

[Dece1t]

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?
Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

I'm gonna disagree with the consensus of a fully physical 25g as well, I much prefer the idea of it being mixed offenses (with maybe slight physical bias). Since Galvenize has been chosen, it's already been hinted that we want to take advantage of strong normal priority, but that can only go so far. There are a few other normal moves to use at our disposal that would be great to better take on Tomohawk and Scarf Kartana as intended. I also like the idea of it taking advantage of above average bulk at the cost of perhaps an average speed stat (given again we want to take advantage of priority). This would allow it take on even a tank role with the help of items such as Assault Vest, and it would further 25g's overall versatility in sets. A slightly higher Special Defense than Physical Defense would allow us to much more easily switch into Tomohawk's Air Slash, Volkraken's Hydro Pump, and Tapu Koko's Thunderbolt/Dazzling Gleam. More Offensive sets would better be able to break through Defensive Clefable and other major linear walls that we'd be able to hit decently hard from the other side.

To most effectively interact with our threats list as we want to, should CAP 25f's primary offensive focus be physical, special, or mixed?
In addition to our offensive effectiveness, are there any important threat interactions that we should be taking into account with regard to CAP 25's defenses?

I've liked the idea of 25f being a balance breaker from the beginning, especially now with Technician-boosted Hidden Power among an array of over weaker moves that can now be boosted to much more usable levels. I like this being somewhat mixed, but with a very heavy emphasis on physical bias. I don't think I'd want this mon to abuse too many special moves outside of Hidden Power, and HP Ice especially can make some of our Checks and Counters much softer (Lando-T, Tomohawk, and Zygarde; Gastrodon and Mega Swampert with HP Grass). I think it's also fair to say that 25f should be the more glass cannon-esque starter of the bunch, so it still remains decently easy to revenge kill by its pressures and offensive checks. Given that we want All-Out Pummeling Kerfluffle and Strategem to be able to pressure us, I would say go for a pretty low Special Defense especially. A decent or good speed stat (probably base 100 or over but not higher than base 107 or 108) should also be considered so it can outspeed Offensive Zapdos, Plasmanta, non-scarf Volkraken, and Gliscor.

Is there a particular direction, physical or special, on either the offensive or defensive side, that would be preferable for taking advantage of ability movepool interaction?
With regard to our threat list, should we be placing a bigger focus, defensively, on the physical or special side of the spectrum?

For offenses, I gotta give a hard disagree to it being primarily Physical. Facade should not be a reason to go that direction, given that it's not super effective to anything (let alone what we're supposed to easily switch in to and pressure), and it has no important side effects. The same can be said for Lunge to a smaller extent. I would actually much prefer Special here, given we'd be able to better abuse Scald. Being able to abuse First Impression sounds nice on paper, but given we're meant to be primarily Defensive, I see its niche being fairly limited aside from the occasional revenge kill. Offense isn't the spotlight stat to discuss, however, I believe it's Defenses are what's more important. I'd go with probably a higher Physical Defense to better check non-Flynium Lando-T, Zygarde, Mega Scizor, Colossoil, and Mega Gyarados (that latter especially given we don't resist their Crunches). Special Defense should be up there as well (bear minimum base 95), because it's ability to check Scylant and Keldeo really rely on that. As for Speed, I probably would not go lower than base 76 so we don't go as low as Arghonaught and slower Mollux. That would be a good benchmark to have.

 

[snake]

For CAP25f, being physically-biased mixed allows us to take advantage of Hidden Power one or two counters that might have a 4x weakness to the chosen type, but it prevents CAP25f from fully abusing its access to any typed 90 BP move. Additionally, there are many more physical STAB Fire-type and Ground-type moves that can abuse Technician to the fullest, which would fulfill concept much more fluidly.

For CAP25g, it would make sense for Galvanize to be physical, due to other physical Electric-types struggling with the lame Wild Charge as their best STAB move. I do see the appeal of going mixed, but I don't think we should be forced to go mixed outside of not stat-dumping for starter purposes. 535 BST isn't extremely limited, but I want to stress that trying to force a balanced, mixed stat spread could result in stretching stats too thinly.

 

[Dece1t]

For CAP25f, being physically-biased mixed allows us to take advantage of Hidden Power one or two counters that might have a 4x weakness to the chosen type, but it prevents CAP25f from fully abusing its access to any typed 90 BP move. Additionally, there are many more physical STAB Fire-type and Ground-type moves that can abuse Technician to the fullest, which would fulfill concept much more fluidly.

For CAP25g, it would make sense for Galvanize to be physical, due to other physical Electric-types struggling with the lame Wild Charge as their best STAB move. I do see the appeal of going mixed, but I don't think we should be forced to go mixed outside of not stat-dumping for starter purposes. 535 BST isn't extremely limited, but I want to stress that trying to force a balanced, mixed stat spread could result in stretching stats too thinly.

I see where you're going, but Galvanize (on top of any other boosting items) is gonna make our super-effective STABs deceptively strong. Greninja manages to pull off Mixed sets incredibly well with overall balanced stats (largely because of Protean as the damage booster), I can see 25g being able to pull off similar. Not to mention, its Grass STABs are able to counter back any of its Electric move switchins. Being able to take Scarf Kartana is a biggie, and there are moves that it could potentially abuse from the special side thanks to Galvanize (poll jumping redacted).

 

[hawk1113]

CAP 25w: The second question is easier to answer. Almost all of the threatlist that we should be able to switch into use physical Ground or Fighting-type moves. Those resistances are the defensive benefit of our bug-typing, especially the ground one. But if we don't have good physical bulk, it'll be hard to take advantage of these resistances repeatedly, as both fighting- and ground-type attacks are physically biased in the metagame, in part due to the prevalence and power of Earthquake. This leads to the conclusion that we should place a bigger focus on physical defense over special defense for 25w.

The first question to me seems to point in the opposite direction. One category of moves that takes advantage of our ability are those that protect. There are a few protecting moves which trigger if the opponent makes contact, and most contact moves are physical. With more special bulk we can use our ability-synergizing moves to patch up weakness on the physical side, with our bug-type dealing with Earthquake, the most common non-contact physical move.

I guess I believe that if we care a lot about using our ability to the maximum degree possible, we should prioritize special bulk, while if we are satisfied with the default level of ability-interaction, we should prioritize physical bulk. In all cases, the primary focus, per se, should be on how we deal with physical attacks.

This is good argumentation, and I find it fascinating. I was going to come here intent on saying we should get 25w's Physical Bulk as high as we can within our BST limitations, because clearly we chose this bug typing specifically to ruin the day of Zygarde, Colossoil, Revenankh, Arghnonaut, Swampert-M, and any Landorus-T that doesn't run Supersonic Sky Strike. So why not just lean into it, max our physical bulk, and really wreck those guys? Such a set-up would also improve our Necturna matchup somewhat.

But here's the thing - there' s a lot of asterisks on our 25w matchups. We want to beat Zygarde...but concede it's tough to stomach a bunch of Outrages from it. We want to beat Lando...but can't handle Flynium-Z. We want to beat Colossoil...but will be hard pressed to ever have enough bulk to eat Flame Orb Facade. We'd like for Necturna and Hawlucha to have a tough time switching in to us, but what realistically makes that happen?

The answer of course, as you said, is to actualize our ability with our movepool by utilizing Protect++ moves that punish physical contact. By utilizing these moves, we can actually fulfill our concept, managing to do great work and change match-ups we may not otherwise have won on raw typing and stats alone.

Beefing up our Special Defense has a few other benefits as well - it helps us have a better time versus Keldeo and Syclant which are also on our list of switch-ins, and helps versus the Latis and Mew who are NOT on our list at all but are in theory things we could be good at threatening, with enough Special bulk. We'll need to watch our list of checks and counters but honestly, if we had enough special bulk to not be utterly destroyed by Jumbao and defensive Tomohawk, two of the most prolific 'mons in the CAP meta, I'd see that as a feature and not a bug (heh) of boosting our special bulk.

In terms of offensive bias for 25w...I don't see us needing to actually pick a direction, honestly. I could easily see us having both offenses in the Blastoise neighborhood and being "mixed" in the sense that we have a respectablely mediocre amount of power on both. That gives us best of both worlds, in terms of letting us use that ubiquitous Special burn-inducing Water STAB to further protect ourselves on the physical side, while also getting access to the full spectrum of life-stealing, momentum-building, priority-granting, and stat-dropping moves that Bug brings on the Physical side (plus Facade, if we determine that THAT'S the way we'll be scaring off Hawlucha). The power of 25w will be in its defensive and utility moves, such as Protect++ moves, Toxic, Substitute, and hopefully a few specific metagame niches we choose to grant it, so ultimately its offenses aren't super relevant.

 

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

In order to best utilize Galvanize and our typing, should CAP 25g be oriented more strongly towards an offensive or defensive role?
Looking at the threats list, should CAP25g be more physically or specially focused (or mixed) both offensively and defensively?

With CAP25g, If we really want to, we can go mixed offensively without giving it evenly-split mixed stats. If we choose, Galvanize could give us access to some very powerful STAB-boosted moves that hit what we want special attacks to hit hard enough without having a high Special Attack stat or even significant special attack investment. Galvanize gives us incredible utility in being able to go mixed effectively while still being able to balance our stats with the BST limit. Look at Swellow as an example. It only has base 75 Special Attack, which is totally mediocre, but still powerful enough to abuse its most powerful STAB attack. We can have a lower Special Attack stat here and still have moves that we can abuse on the special side well enough to handle what we want to check. Another example could be Grassium-Z boosted high base-power Grass-type attacks, specifically Frenzy Plant (which isn't polljumping considering that ALL final starter evolutions receive the elemental Hyper Beams.) This may not prove as effective in practice, and I'm at work so I don't have time to run calcs, but it could be a powerful tool even with a lower Special Attack stat. I realize that a lot of these decisions will come into play during the movepool stage, but I really wanted to point out that CAP25g can be a solid, viable mixed attacker even with a medicore Special Attack stat, thanks to the abundance of high-powered Special Attacking options potentially available to it.