THE_IRON_...KENYAN?
Banned deucer.
Should we celebrate Columbus day? I think yes. You cant judge somebody by the standards of the past and he was a great man who did a lot.
What do you think?
What do you think?
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Serious Should we celebrate Columbus day?
- Thread starter THE_IRON_...KENYAN?
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ayedan
5 am in Toronto
Honestly, he also gets credited with alot more stuff than he actually did like discover America (which he didn't) and had the "nail in the coffin" for the idea of a round Earth. He also did plenty of barbaric things like enslave and mutilate the Natives he found in America.
The naive kid story you get about Columbus is still fun for them, and i think the norm of keeping that while teaching about the atrocities later works just fine (But I'm not historically well read enough to plan a better lesson plan). I'd probably celebrate a different holiday but i don't really care enough to change it. Does anybody really treat it as anything more than a day off and do some kind of ritual in rememberance of Christopher Columbus?
idk dude have you ever spoken to a native american about it? oh wait there aren't that many around.... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I actually have, and the ones I've spoken with are not pleased with columbus day or jackson being on the $20 bill.
kilometerman
Banned deucer.
Saying Columbus is responsible for the 90% of natives dying is like saying that the sailors that came back to Italy with the Black Death were responsible for all the European deaths that came from it.
Knowing Better made a pretty good video on Columbus where he basically sums it up as "he wasn't a hero but he wasn't bad either, he was really just neutral and ambitious"
Knowing Better made a pretty good video on Columbus where he basically sums it up as "he wasn't a hero but he wasn't bad either, he was really just neutral and ambitious"
yeah and columbus didn't kill 90% of the native population
Honestly to pretend that Colombus Day is anything worth a fuss about is funny. No one argues to change the faces of all USD even though some of those faces are a regular reminder of shitty treatment to the disadvantaged than any one holiday out of the year. Not to mention that to call it a "celebration of Colombus" is a stretch since it's more like another day for season sales and time off, just like every other "special day."
Like many have previously stated, there is a false information perpetuated on both the negative and positive sides of Columbus's legacy. The whole killing natives thing, while true, is slightly exaggerated. However, he is most certainly not some godlike hero who discovered the Americas all by himself and is given so much credit that is he is not responsible for nor deserving of. So, in reality, he is a kind of bad person who did slightly notable things. Is he deserving of a holiday? No. Do I want a day of school? Yes.
“In 1492, Columbus got us all a day off school.“ - Eric Cartman, South Park
“In 1492, Columbus got us all a day off school.“ - Eric Cartman, South Park
kilometerman
Banned deucer.
"Saying Columbus is responsible for the 90% of natives dying is like saying that the sailors that came back to Italy with the Black Death were responsible for all the European deaths that came from it."
Guys when hailfail says that's not the minimum requirement (minimum means least) for being a bad person, it means that negative accounts of Columbus may be exaggerated, but he still encountered free indigenous people and immediately was like, sweet, let's enslave them. This was a practice that was then condemned by his own queen and which horrified catholic clergy sent to the new world, both of whom were otherwise pretty chill about slavery in general. So no, he wasn't "a fine man by his own time's standards". If Columbus wasn't evil in the 15th century, then you'd damn well better give me some examples of people who were, or your argument is nonsense.
I think people are underestimating the scale of what exactly transpired.
"Before Columbus, one researcher calculated, the Western Hemisphere held ninety to 112 million people. Another way of saying this is that in 1491 more people lived in the Americas than in Europe. "
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/03/1491/302445/
Please do your research before minimising the impact of what happened, or making spurious comparisons between man and a disease pathogen. If your argument rests upon ascertaining exactly how much percentage of the population he directly enslaved and genocided then you've already long fallen off a moral cliff.
"Before Columbus, one researcher calculated, the Western Hemisphere held ninety to 112 million people. Another way of saying this is that in 1491 more people lived in the Americas than in Europe. "
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/03/1491/302445/
Please do your research before minimising the impact of what happened, or making spurious comparisons between man and a disease pathogen. If your argument rests upon ascertaining exactly how much percentage of the population he directly enslaved and genocided then you've already long fallen off a moral cliff.
kilometerman
Banned deucer.
For the third time, we cannot fault someone for unintentionally spreading disease, regardless of how much people died as a result. If you want to paint him as le evil white man imperialist than you should focus on the crimes he intentionally committed.
inb4 Columbus knew that Smallpox existed, that Indians were not genetically resistant to it, and that it was spread by being in close proximity with infected persons, despite the fact that germ theory was not created until 1546 and wasn't widely accepted until the late 19th century
Except it is clear that you don't have the foggiest about this line you're parroting. Columbus' expedition was bankrolled by the Monarchy of Spain with the express dictum of setting up colonies as bases in order to secure trade routes for spices and provide a foothold for the Spanish Empire to push ahead in the global colonial race vs the British. He was looking for India but ended up encountering the Americas (The West Indies named in memory of that fuckup as the first Frontier Columbus landed on) but that's a different story. This is already a textbook definition of the colonial enterprise, but unfortunately that's hardly the end of the story.
But you seem to be fanatically fixated upon defending the fact that was no crime he "intentionally" committed. Ok, let's go there.
Your narrative implies that he was some Bob Ross figure roaming the seas for the joy of discovery, but he was ironically very much the splitting model of the "le evil white man imperialist" that you try to caricature. He was very much sweet on claiming the lands and ruling them. Dude was literally appointed as the Viceroy and Governer of the Indies by the Spanish Empire.
"Empire" --> "Imperial"
I hope this difficult logical leap is managing to penetrate your specially fortified skull.
And Colombus' tyrannical rule, from Slavery, to mass torture, and to his documented role in overseeing the genocide of the Taito people is well documented factual history. And these aren't claimed and documented by snowflake shrieking lefty scholars of colour because God knows given your dismissive attitude you are probably fucking deaf to anything they would have to say. These are crimes investigated and documented by the Spanish crown itself. I'll let Wikipedia take over because I'm tired of typing or basic fucking history to an ignoramus who had clearly not done even basic reading on the matter.
Now having demonstrably proven that your image of this guy as some harmless seafarer who never intentionally committed atrocities in the name of imperialism is but third rate fiction, I dare you to defend this guy's track record, let alone justify celebrating him. Because if you insist on doing so I won't be able to chalk it upto ignorance anymore. At that point this continued farce won't appear as anything other than a clear case of racism and denial. If that's indeed the case i wonder if you should be allowed to participate in a civil discussion on this forum, or any forum.literally on Columbus' fucking Wiki page said:
Go ahead. Take a fourth shot at claiming Columbus "unintentionally spread a disease". I am very interested to see what is Cong's official policy on slavery and genocide denialism.
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The indians, the braves and the redskins all got demolished on columbus day. Just sayig lads....
EV
Banned deucer.
What do you mean? We ought to judge him by the standards of the present?
I do get the impression that some of the hatred directed towards Columbus is actually him being the target of efforts to divert attention from the awful stuff that came afterwards but is less convenient to bring up.
Also, mixing the real torture and slavement he did with accusations of deliberate germ warfare kind of damages the credibility of accusations against him. The natives were in for plague the moment farm animals were introduced into the New World.
Also, mixing the real torture and slavement he did with accusations of deliberate germ warfare kind of damages the credibility of accusations against him. The natives were in for plague the moment farm animals were introduced into the New World.
Because in my country, 12 October 1492 is the date we went from backward hillbillies to world superpower, and after ~350 years of going downhill, it's hard to turn our back on that sentiment.
Should we stop celebrating Martin Luther King Jr Day because of his questionable history of sexual assault and drunken sex orgy parties?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41871956
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41871956
Believe all victims. This is literally a part of an FBI report.
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