Don't forget to give Leavanny Return. It is arguably more powerful than STAB on neutral targets. It can also learn Shadow Claw (useless but there) and both screens which are helpful.
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Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tier List Discussion (MkII)
- Thread starter DrumstickGaming
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Ah, right. I bought the TM and promptly forgot about it. I'll forgo Slash for it. I'm now looking at Return, Swords Dance, Leaf Blade, and X-Scissor as its final move set. I've also taught it to Dewott and Drillbur. Darumaka has Thrash which does a little more, and Gurdurr's Chip Away has more utility on those seeking to boost Defense or evasion.
Edit: Just cleared Clay's gym, then reset and did it again. A cakewalk for Dewott, with Leavanny cleaning up Palpatoad. The Krokorok opened with Swagger, then Torment after Dewott hit itself. Still cleared Krokorok and Excadrill. Leavanny actually outsped Krokorok and OHKO'd with Razor Leaf, but couldn't get through Excadrill. Onward to Chargestone Cave (N) and Mistralton City!
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Gonna give some quick thoughts on stuff I've used so far, having just defeated Burgh
Servine: I've liked it so far, took a few levels to get going but it rolled through the early game pretty comfortably up past Lenora. Servine did the thing where it holds a(n unnecessary) Chesto Berry and rolls through with Leaf Tornado donking the Watchog...or would have if I didn't terrible luck on the 90% rolls. Slowing down at the moment as we're running into a lot more grass types which are a pain to 1v1, though Servine does still win. Never the strongest thing but will comfortably 3HKO most things at worst without having to deal with anything too troublesome.
Herdier: Lillipup stomped the early game, as did Herdier at level 16 but it's really slowed down FAST for me. level 17-20 have been a struggle, it's been a let down in power, missing out on KOs that you'd like to see and it's eating up a hot of healing with Take Down as its primary stab when it isn't killing itself outright. Don't expect this to get better as I'm pretty sure I have garbage IVs. Going to be hard to justify keeping this as a Normal type if it isn't killing things or tanking hits.
Woobat: I've been pleasantly surprised here. It's pretty frail but its typing is pretty good for the point you get it with a lot of fighting types to beat up on and then pinwheel forest as a pretty gust/air cutter murder zone. Heart Stamp is a good power spike to carry you to Air Cutter. Did a great job rolling through Burgh's gym and Burgh himself sans Dwebble, evolving immediately after KOing Leavanny at level 24 (one haircut used to boost). Good showing so far.
Roggenrola: Kind of hard to put a point on this but it's been solid I guess. Does what you'd expect it to do in the places you'd expect it to. Can't stand up to unfavourable matchups, as a bit of a tough time getting started, but it can be self-sustaining without falling behind in power after a certain points. It's just fine. Not likely I'll carry it through the game even though Gigalith's stats look tasty af.
Tympole: I'm excited to use this long term. It's not been anything amazing so far which is to be expected with how low its stats are but it's filled the Water type role well enough which carries an inherent value. Decent enough on its own and will get better fast in a couple of levels.
Servine: I've liked it so far, took a few levels to get going but it rolled through the early game pretty comfortably up past Lenora. Servine did the thing where it holds a(n unnecessary) Chesto Berry and rolls through with Leaf Tornado donking the Watchog...or would have if I didn't terrible luck on the 90% rolls. Slowing down at the moment as we're running into a lot more grass types which are a pain to 1v1, though Servine does still win. Never the strongest thing but will comfortably 3HKO most things at worst without having to deal with anything too troublesome.
Herdier: Lillipup stomped the early game, as did Herdier at level 16 but it's really slowed down FAST for me. level 17-20 have been a struggle, it's been a let down in power, missing out on KOs that you'd like to see and it's eating up a hot of healing with Take Down as its primary stab when it isn't killing itself outright. Don't expect this to get better as I'm pretty sure I have garbage IVs. Going to be hard to justify keeping this as a Normal type if it isn't killing things or tanking hits.
Woobat: I've been pleasantly surprised here. It's pretty frail but its typing is pretty good for the point you get it with a lot of fighting types to beat up on and then pinwheel forest as a pretty gust/air cutter murder zone. Heart Stamp is a good power spike to carry you to Air Cutter. Did a great job rolling through Burgh's gym and Burgh himself sans Dwebble, evolving immediately after KOing Leavanny at level 24 (one haircut used to boost). Good showing so far.
Roggenrola: Kind of hard to put a point on this but it's been solid I guess. Does what you'd expect it to do in the places you'd expect it to. Can't stand up to unfavourable matchups, as a bit of a tough time getting started, but it can be self-sustaining without falling behind in power after a certain points. It's just fine. Not likely I'll carry it through the game even though Gigalith's stats look tasty af.
Tympole: I'm excited to use this long term. It's not been anything amazing so far which is to be expected with how low its stats are but it's filled the Water type role well enough which carries an inherent value. Decent enough on its own and will get better fast in a couple of levels.
Don't forget Retaliate typically secures 2HKOs even without the boost. Not a long-term strat but I found myself using Take Down somewhat infrequently. About the Normal type thing...not many have better Attack. Sawsbuck has equal and Bouffalant only eclipses it at 110.
Even I will admit Herdier oddly falls off until Nimbasa. But once you get Stoutland with Return, it goes up to OHKOs on many foes or near OHKOs. It may not be a powerhouse, but the reliability issues are generally fixed.
At 5 PP it doesn't seem like much of a long-run solution
Do you still have Tackle? I'm unsure if that secures 2HKOs with Herdier (I deleted it for Retaliate).
Also Scoliipede...isn't good. I can't OHKO Swoobat 3 levels lower with Megahorn, and I can't even 2HKO Watchog with Poison Tail. Definite C tier.
Nope, Rock Smash and Bite, Bite doesn't get the job done for two shots
Ah okay. If it isn't impressing you by Stoutland, feel free to drop it. I think it will be a solid A tier regardless. I just don't think anything in the mountains of crap pre-Nacrene can compare. It's really odd how it feels weaker post Herdier. Maybe because mooks start getting better things?
I think Roggenrola has merit long-term. It may be slow, but it has a niche in almost every boss sans Clay, which only really Archen can match save for Elesa.
I also really like how you appreciated my enthusiasm a while back-I just love responding to people.
Got through my playthrough.
Tepig
It's not a speedrun damn it.
Seriously though, Tepig is an all-around solid Pokémon. Tepig has a really good early-game being able to blitz through most things outside of the first two Gyms where it can get through them alone, but it's more efficient to get assistance in the form of another Pokémon (Pansage). It scales well, though the late to endgame leaves a bit to be desired. It's good against Burgh, the mid-game gyms are okay to rough, Brycen is easy, but it struggles in Opelucid Gym, especially the trainers who will just DD in your face and one shot you with Dragon Claw with Fraxure. Plasma matchup, in general, is good. Field trainers it doesn't have too many issues. Bianca and Cheren are okayish but fighting Bianca's Serperior in the rain isn't something I would recommend casually. Problem is the endgame is rather rough. It has a good matchup in Grimsley (save Krookodile unless you X-Speed it), and can deal with half of N's team. Everything else it just wishes this was a speedrun where it can be an over-leveled Emboar with the ability to just cleave through matchups with a couple of X-Items and a little dose of luck. But this isn't a speedrun, so it's not going to have the luxury of being over-leveled and tends to struggle, mostly due to its bad speed and its bulk leaving a lot to be desired. There is a reason why Tepig isn't S-Rank.
For those curious, I had a Hasty variant and it finished at Lv47. It evolved on Route 3 and then on the first Hiker in Twist Mountain. Final move-set was Brick Break/Rollout/Heat Crash/Flame Charge.
Woobat
Woobat was something. For matchups, Woobat is a useful death fodder for Lenora, has a good matchup on Burgh, and should steer clear of Elesa. Clay if you have Calm Mind you can set up on Palpitoad, but it needs to be evolved to even touch Excadrill. It sets up on Skyla's Swoobat. For Brycen, you can exploit the AI of Vanillish to bait it into Acid Armour to set up Calm Mind and by the time AA is done, Vanillish will use Astonish instead of Frost Breath. But it needs good Special Attack, otherwise, Beartic lives an attack even at +6 and Icicle Crash takes it out. Drayden/Iris it cannot set up because of Dragon Tail, but it's not completely useless, especially if Air Slash flinches. For the final fights, Marshal is its only okay matchup, AND ONLY IF it gets a free switch-in and you expect a Full Restore. This is because you can get a Calm Mind in and deal a lot of damage, otherwise, it falls to random Rock-type coverage. Everything else, the best it can do is get an attack in, deal not much damage and fall. Field trainers are decent, and Team Plasma matchups aren't too bad because it can get some Flying-type coverage to help deal with the Dark-types. Bianca/Cheren matchups aren't too great though Simisage and Serperior do not enjoy it.
In short, Woobat has its moments, but it needs good Special Attack to do anything super noteworthy, and even then, its bad bulk really hurts late-game. Also if you pick it as your flier, you have a little bit of 4MSS as you probably want Calm Mind, but you also want Psychic, Air Slash, and Shadow Ball, and you need to drop one of those if you have Fly and the Move Deleter being in Mistralton isn't very convenient outside of catching another mon to use as a Fly Slave.
For those curious, I had a Gentle Unaware variant, and it finished at Lv46. It evolved at Lv30 after the Route 6 Bianca fight. Final move-set was Calm Mind/Psychic/Air Slash/Fly.
Yamask
Solid defensive Pokémon. Will-O-Wisp + Hex scales well throughout the game and combined with its physical bulk and Mummy, allow it to deal with nearly every Physically-based Pokémon in the game. Night Shade is not too shabby either, and Shadow Ball is a consistent move. Gym Leader matchups are actually really good, though not super efficient. It can deal with Elesa when holding an Eviolite as it only gets three shot by Volt Switch and can WoW + Hex through the matchup. For Clay, it can deal with Excadrill and doesn't care about Hone Claws, though Krokorok isn't super safe but could work. For Skyla, it can deal with Swoobat, but you are better off using something else for Unfezant and Swanna. Brycen and Drayden/Iris it can reliably deal with the threats there (and can potentially solo Brycen with just one healing item needed), though remember that Dragon Tail is a thing for Drayden/Iris. Bianca/Cheren matchups aren't too crash hot, field trainers really vary since its biggest issue comes in the form of coverage (Its only decent attacking moves by level-up are all Ghost-type). Plasma matchup isn't very consistent either. End-game it kinda falls apart, however. It does REALLY well against Marshal (though Conk can give it problems), but other than that? It struggles. Most of it is because of its bad speed and its special bulk as Cofagrigus leaves a little to be desired so stuff like Shadow Ball even neutrally leaves a big hole if not, outright KOes. It could do things against some of N's team, but its end-game, in general, is just... bad.
For those curious, I had a Naive variant, and it finished at Lv45. It evolved halfway through the Mistralton Gym. Final move-set was Shadow Ball/Night Shade/Hex/Will-O-Wisp.
Ferroseed
Definitely the MVP of the run. Getting Curse and Gyro Ball straight out of the bat is a big deal as not only does it boost its performance significantly, but it also makes Gyro Ball really powerful, and it's slow anyway so it doesn't matter too much. Its matchups are excellent. The only real bad matchups are Marshal and N (while Reshiram and Zoroark are still around, after that you are clear). I guess things like Ghetsis' Hydreigon, some of Caitlin's Focus Miss spammers, and Chandelure are also bad matchups, but it isn't anything some X Sp Def's or some smart PP stalling for Chandelure (Five Fire Blasts) cannot fix. Other than that, most other matchups are just ripe for a win because Ferroseed can just set up or something. Its Plasma matchups for what's left are definitely good, the Bianca/Cheren matchups aren't too great, but workable. For field trainers the low speed can be an issue, but it can definitely tank the matchups. It did not really need any babysitting despite the fairly late evolution and paid back in spades, to the point that it basically became a crutch in the endgame because it was the only thing in my party that could put two and two together. With the help of X-Sp. Defends in some matchups (Caitlin, N, Ghetsis), because otherwise I would still be fighting them now. Should definitely be B-Rank MINIMUM. Hesistant to say A simply because of low speed (mid-lategame appearance doesn't matter since Joltik/Cobalion are in A-Rank).
For those curious, I had a Bashful variant, and it finished at Lv53. It evolved right at the end of the four in a row Plasma Gauntlet on Dragonspiral Tower. Final move-set was Curse/Iron Head/Power Whip/Gyro Ball.
Bouffalant
End-game Pokémon, does much better on paper than in practice. It does have a really powerful STAB Head Charge which with Reckless boosts and maybe Work Up, can punch a huge hole in things. In practice? Its speed is really a downside. And though it is bulky enough to live some attacks like Chandelure's Fire Blast and Reshiram's Fusion Flare, it still doesn't help too much as it is still two shot, giving you only one shot to tear a hole in things or to PP stall for teammates. Outside of field trainers, it has no gimme matchups (not without X-Items, which says something about it) and the best it can do is punch a hole in one or two things before biting the dust. The best it can do with Shauntal is tank Fire Blasts so a fire-type weak Pokémon can come in, Grimsley it doesn't like Scrafty (Revenge does things on that fight and on N I guess), Caitilin it doesn't like the Focus Blast users such as Reuniclus, Marshal is a hard avoid (though I guess it outspeeds Throh/Conkeldurr if your speed is good enough?). That is pretty much the main pattern, it can punch a hole in things (outside of Ghost-types, where you can only rely on Bulldoze/Megahorn), but since everything hits hard, it can only live one attack. Just not a really impressive Pokémon for how late you get it. If given a little more attention it may do things, but I didn't get much meaningful out of it on the fights that mattered outside of two situations (PP Stall Chandelure, pick off Reshiram).
For those curious, I had a Hasty Reckless variant, and it finished at Lv47. Final move-set was Work Up/Revenge/Head Charge/Megahorn.
Final IGT was 9:18 so it was a pretty quick run. I might do another run with different Pokémon soon to test more things out.
---
Looking at it at the end of the day with my final team and levels (and I basically rushed through the game) pretty much makes a good case as to why some of the Lv50+ evolutions shouldn't really be going anywhere high or something (ex. Mienfoo): Unless you are going out of your way to grind (the only real grinding I did was a couple of Audino at the start of the game and then some optional trainers to catchup a newly-caught Pokémon), you aren't evolving those before the end of the run, unless it becomes a big crutch like Ferrothorn did for me and gain a bunch of levels in the league, or you are doing something like running a two-three Pokémon team where there's less experience going to other Pokémon. That's not to say you cannot evolve it, but the main point is those really late evolutions look to be really inefficient in general, especially on larger party sizes.
Tepig
It's not a speedrun damn it.
Seriously though, Tepig is an all-around solid Pokémon. Tepig has a really good early-game being able to blitz through most things outside of the first two Gyms where it can get through them alone, but it's more efficient to get assistance in the form of another Pokémon (Pansage). It scales well, though the late to endgame leaves a bit to be desired. It's good against Burgh, the mid-game gyms are okay to rough, Brycen is easy, but it struggles in Opelucid Gym, especially the trainers who will just DD in your face and one shot you with Dragon Claw with Fraxure. Plasma matchup, in general, is good. Field trainers it doesn't have too many issues. Bianca and Cheren are okayish but fighting Bianca's Serperior in the rain isn't something I would recommend casually. Problem is the endgame is rather rough. It has a good matchup in Grimsley (save Krookodile unless you X-Speed it), and can deal with half of N's team. Everything else it just wishes this was a speedrun where it can be an over-leveled Emboar with the ability to just cleave through matchups with a couple of X-Items and a little dose of luck. But this isn't a speedrun, so it's not going to have the luxury of being over-leveled and tends to struggle, mostly due to its bad speed and its bulk leaving a lot to be desired. There is a reason why Tepig isn't S-Rank.
For those curious, I had a Hasty variant and it finished at Lv47. It evolved on Route 3 and then on the first Hiker in Twist Mountain. Final move-set was Brick Break/Rollout/Heat Crash/Flame Charge.
Woobat
Woobat was something. For matchups, Woobat is a useful death fodder for Lenora, has a good matchup on Burgh, and should steer clear of Elesa. Clay if you have Calm Mind you can set up on Palpitoad, but it needs to be evolved to even touch Excadrill. It sets up on Skyla's Swoobat. For Brycen, you can exploit the AI of Vanillish to bait it into Acid Armour to set up Calm Mind and by the time AA is done, Vanillish will use Astonish instead of Frost Breath. But it needs good Special Attack, otherwise, Beartic lives an attack even at +6 and Icicle Crash takes it out. Drayden/Iris it cannot set up because of Dragon Tail, but it's not completely useless, especially if Air Slash flinches. For the final fights, Marshal is its only okay matchup, AND ONLY IF it gets a free switch-in and you expect a Full Restore. This is because you can get a Calm Mind in and deal a lot of damage, otherwise, it falls to random Rock-type coverage. Everything else, the best it can do is get an attack in, deal not much damage and fall. Field trainers are decent, and Team Plasma matchups aren't too bad because it can get some Flying-type coverage to help deal with the Dark-types. Bianca/Cheren matchups aren't too great though Simisage and Serperior do not enjoy it.
In short, Woobat has its moments, but it needs good Special Attack to do anything super noteworthy, and even then, its bad bulk really hurts late-game. Also if you pick it as your flier, you have a little bit of 4MSS as you probably want Calm Mind, but you also want Psychic, Air Slash, and Shadow Ball, and you need to drop one of those if you have Fly and the Move Deleter being in Mistralton isn't very convenient outside of catching another mon to use as a Fly Slave.
For those curious, I had a Gentle Unaware variant, and it finished at Lv46. It evolved at Lv30 after the Route 6 Bianca fight. Final move-set was Calm Mind/Psychic/Air Slash/Fly.
Yamask
Solid defensive Pokémon. Will-O-Wisp + Hex scales well throughout the game and combined with its physical bulk and Mummy, allow it to deal with nearly every Physically-based Pokémon in the game. Night Shade is not too shabby either, and Shadow Ball is a consistent move. Gym Leader matchups are actually really good, though not super efficient. It can deal with Elesa when holding an Eviolite as it only gets three shot by Volt Switch and can WoW + Hex through the matchup. For Clay, it can deal with Excadrill and doesn't care about Hone Claws, though Krokorok isn't super safe but could work. For Skyla, it can deal with Swoobat, but you are better off using something else for Unfezant and Swanna. Brycen and Drayden/Iris it can reliably deal with the threats there (and can potentially solo Brycen with just one healing item needed), though remember that Dragon Tail is a thing for Drayden/Iris. Bianca/Cheren matchups aren't too crash hot, field trainers really vary since its biggest issue comes in the form of coverage (Its only decent attacking moves by level-up are all Ghost-type). Plasma matchup isn't very consistent either. End-game it kinda falls apart, however. It does REALLY well against Marshal (though Conk can give it problems), but other than that? It struggles. Most of it is because of its bad speed and its special bulk as Cofagrigus leaves a little to be desired so stuff like Shadow Ball even neutrally leaves a big hole if not, outright KOes. It could do things against some of N's team, but its end-game, in general, is just... bad.
For those curious, I had a Naive variant, and it finished at Lv45. It evolved halfway through the Mistralton Gym. Final move-set was Shadow Ball/Night Shade/Hex/Will-O-Wisp.
Ferroseed
Definitely the MVP of the run. Getting Curse and Gyro Ball straight out of the bat is a big deal as not only does it boost its performance significantly, but it also makes Gyro Ball really powerful, and it's slow anyway so it doesn't matter too much. Its matchups are excellent. The only real bad matchups are Marshal and N (while Reshiram and Zoroark are still around, after that you are clear). I guess things like Ghetsis' Hydreigon, some of Caitlin's Focus Miss spammers, and Chandelure are also bad matchups, but it isn't anything some X Sp Def's or some smart PP stalling for Chandelure (Five Fire Blasts) cannot fix. Other than that, most other matchups are just ripe for a win because Ferroseed can just set up or something. Its Plasma matchups for what's left are definitely good, the Bianca/Cheren matchups aren't too great, but workable. For field trainers the low speed can be an issue, but it can definitely tank the matchups. It did not really need any babysitting despite the fairly late evolution and paid back in spades, to the point that it basically became a crutch in the endgame because it was the only thing in my party that could put two and two together. With the help of X-Sp. Defends in some matchups (Caitlin, N, Ghetsis), because otherwise I would still be fighting them now. Should definitely be B-Rank MINIMUM. Hesistant to say A simply because of low speed (mid-lategame appearance doesn't matter since Joltik/Cobalion are in A-Rank).
For those curious, I had a Bashful variant, and it finished at Lv53. It evolved right at the end of the four in a row Plasma Gauntlet on Dragonspiral Tower. Final move-set was Curse/Iron Head/Power Whip/Gyro Ball.
Bouffalant
End-game Pokémon, does much better on paper than in practice. It does have a really powerful STAB Head Charge which with Reckless boosts and maybe Work Up, can punch a huge hole in things. In practice? Its speed is really a downside. And though it is bulky enough to live some attacks like Chandelure's Fire Blast and Reshiram's Fusion Flare, it still doesn't help too much as it is still two shot, giving you only one shot to tear a hole in things or to PP stall for teammates. Outside of field trainers, it has no gimme matchups (not without X-Items, which says something about it) and the best it can do is punch a hole in one or two things before biting the dust. The best it can do with Shauntal is tank Fire Blasts so a fire-type weak Pokémon can come in, Grimsley it doesn't like Scrafty (Revenge does things on that fight and on N I guess), Caitilin it doesn't like the Focus Blast users such as Reuniclus, Marshal is a hard avoid (though I guess it outspeeds Throh/Conkeldurr if your speed is good enough?). That is pretty much the main pattern, it can punch a hole in things (outside of Ghost-types, where you can only rely on Bulldoze/Megahorn), but since everything hits hard, it can only live one attack. Just not a really impressive Pokémon for how late you get it. If given a little more attention it may do things, but I didn't get much meaningful out of it on the fights that mattered outside of two situations (PP Stall Chandelure, pick off Reshiram).
For those curious, I had a Hasty Reckless variant, and it finished at Lv47. Final move-set was Work Up/Revenge/Head Charge/Megahorn.
Final IGT was 9:18 so it was a pretty quick run. I might do another run with different Pokémon soon to test more things out.
---
Looking at it at the end of the day with my final team and levels (and I basically rushed through the game) pretty much makes a good case as to why some of the Lv50+ evolutions shouldn't really be going anywhere high or something (ex. Mienfoo): Unless you are going out of your way to grind (the only real grinding I did was a couple of Audino at the start of the game and then some optional trainers to catchup a newly-caught Pokémon), you aren't evolving those before the end of the run, unless it becomes a big crutch like Ferrothorn did for me and gain a bunch of levels in the league, or you are doing something like running a two-three Pokémon team where there's less experience going to other Pokémon. That's not to say you cannot evolve it, but the main point is those really late evolutions look to be really inefficient in general, especially on larger party sizes.
Moved Ferroseed up to B even though I was a tiny bit hesitant. I definitely see it over Snivy though, because Ferroseed is a defensive juggernaut.Got through my playthrough.
Tepig
It's not a speedrun damn it.
Seriously though, Tepig is an all-around solid Pokémon. Tepig has a really good early-game being able to blitz through most things outside of the first two Gyms where it can get through them alone, but it's more efficient to get assistance in the form of another Pokémon (Pansage). It scales well, though the late to endgame leaves a bit to be desired. It's good against Burgh, the mid-game gyms are okay to rough, Brycen is easy, but it struggles in Opelucid Gym, especially the trainers who will just DD in your face and one shot you with Dragon Claw with Fraxure. Plasma matchup, in general, is good. Field trainers it doesn't have too many issues. Bianca and Cheren are okayish but fighting Bianca's Serperior in the rain isn't something I would recommend casually. Problem is the endgame is rather rough. It has a good matchup in Grimsley (save Krookodile unless you X-Speed it), and can deal with half of N's team. Everything else it just wishes this was a speedrun where it can be an over-leveled Emboar with the ability to just cleave through matchups with a couple of X-Items and a little dose of luck. But this isn't a speedrun, so it's not going to have the luxury of being over-leveled and tends to struggle, mostly due to its bad speed and its bulk leaving a lot to be desired. There is a reason why Tepig isn't S-Rank.
For those curious, I had a Hasty variant and it finished at Lv47. It evolved on Route 3 and then on the first Hiker in Twist Mountain. Final move-set was Brick Break/Rollout/Heat Crash/Flame Charge.
Woobat
Woobat was something. For matchups, Woobat is a useful death fodder for Lenora, has a good matchup on Burgh, and should steer clear of Elesa. Clay if you have Calm Mind you can set up on Palpitoad, but it needs to be evolved to even touch Excadrill. It sets up on Skyla's Swoobat. For Brycen, you can exploit the AI of Vanillish to bait it into Acid Armour to set up Calm Mind and by the time AA is done, Vanillish will use Astonish instead of Frost Breath. But it needs good Special Attack, otherwise, Beartic lives an attack even at +6 and Icicle Crash takes it out. Drayden/Iris it cannot set up because of Dragon Tail, but it's not completely useless, especially if Air Slash flinches. For the final fights, Marshal is its only okay matchup, AND ONLY IF it gets a free switch-in and you expect a Full Restore. This is because you can get a Calm Mind in and deal a lot of damage, otherwise, it falls to random Rock-type coverage. Everything else, the best it can do is get an attack in, deal not much damage and fall. Field trainers are decent, and Team Plasma matchups aren't too bad because it can get some Flying-type coverage to help deal with the Dark-types. Bianca/Cheren matchups aren't too great though Simisage and Serperior do not enjoy it.
In short, Woobat has its moments, but it needs good Special Attack to do anything super noteworthy, and even then, its bad bulk really hurts late-game. Also if you pick it as your flier, you have a little bit of 4MSS as you probably want Calm Mind, but you also want Psychic, Air Slash, and Shadow Ball, and you need to drop one of those if you have Fly and the Move Deleter being in Mistralton isn't very convenient outside of catching another mon to use as a Fly Slave.
For those curious, I had a Gentle Unaware variant, and it finished at Lv46. It evolved at Lv30 after the Route 6 Bianca fight. Final move-set was Calm Mind/Psychic/Air Slash/Fly.
Yamask
Solid defensive Pokémon. Will-O-Wisp + Hex scales well throughout the game and combined with its physical bulk and Mummy, allow it to deal with nearly every Physically-based Pokémon in the game. Night Shade is not too shabby either, and Shadow Ball is a consistent move. Gym Leader matchups are actually really good, though not super efficient. It can deal with Elesa when holding an Eviolite as it only gets three shot by Volt Switch and can WoW + Hex through the matchup. For Clay, it can deal with Excadrill and doesn't care about Hone Claws, though Krokorok isn't super safe but could work. For Skyla, it can deal with Swoobat, but you are better off using something else for Unfezant and Swanna. Brycen and Drayden/Iris it can reliably deal with the threats there (and can potentially solo Brycen with just one healing item needed), though remember that Dragon Tail is a thing for Drayden/Iris. Bianca/Cheren matchups aren't too crash hot, field trainers really vary since its biggest issue comes in the form of coverage (Its only decent attacking moves by level-up are all Ghost-type). Plasma matchup isn't very consistent either. End-game it kinda falls apart, however. It does REALLY well against Marshal (though Conk can give it problems), but other than that? It struggles. Most of it is because of its bad speed and its special bulk as Cofagrigus leaves a little to be desired so stuff like Shadow Ball even neutrally leaves a big hole if not, outright KOes. It could do things against some of N's team, but its end-game, in general, is just... bad.
For those curious, I had a Naive variant, and it finished at Lv45. It evolved halfway through the Mistralton Gym. Final move-set was Shadow Ball/Night Shade/Hex/Will-O-Wisp.
Ferroseed
Definitely the MVP of the run. Getting Curse and Gyro Ball straight out of the bat is a big deal as not only does it boost its performance significantly, but it also makes Gyro Ball really powerful, and it's slow anyway so it doesn't matter too much. Its matchups are excellent. The only real bad matchups are Marshal and N (while Reshiram and Zoroark are still around, after that you are clear). I guess things like Ghetsis' Hydreigon, some of Caitlin's Focus Miss spammers, and Chandelure are also bad matchups, but it isn't anything some X Sp Def's or some smart PP stalling for Chandelure (Five Fire Blasts) cannot fix. Other than that, most other matchups are just ripe for a win because Ferroseed can just set up or something. Its Plasma matchups for what's left are definitely good, the Bianca/Cheren matchups aren't too great, but workable. For field trainers the low speed can be an issue, but it can definitely tank the matchups. It did not really need any babysitting despite the fairly late evolution and paid back in spades, to the point that it basically became a crutch in the endgame because it was the only thing in my party that could put two and two together. With the help of X-Sp. Defends in some matchups (Caitlin, N, Ghetsis), because otherwise I would still be fighting them now. Should definitely be B-Rank MINIMUM. Hesistant to say A simply because of low speed (mid-lategame appearance doesn't matter since Joltik/Cobalion are in A-Rank).
For those curious, I had a Bashful variant, and it finished at Lv53. It evolved right at the end of the four in a row Plasma Gauntlet on Dragonspiral Tower. Final move-set was Curse/Iron Head/Power Whip/Gyro Ball.
Bouffalant
End-game Pokémon, does much better on paper than in practice. It does have a really powerful STAB Head Charge which with Reckless boosts and maybe Work Up, can punch a huge hole in things. In practice? Its speed is really a downside. And though it is bulky enough to live some attacks like Chandelure's Fire Blast and Reshiram's Fusion Flare, it still doesn't help too much as it is still two shot, giving you only one shot to tear a hole in things or to PP stall for teammates. Outside of field trainers, it has no gimme matchups (not without X-Items, which says something about it) and the best it can do is punch a hole in one or two things before biting the dust. The best it can do with Shauntal is tank Fire Blasts so a fire-type weak Pokémon can come in, Grimsley it doesn't like Scrafty (Revenge does things on that fight and on N I guess), Caitilin it doesn't like the Focus Blast users such as Reuniclus, Marshal is a hard avoid (though I guess it outspeeds Throh/Conkeldurr if your speed is good enough?). That is pretty much the main pattern, it can punch a hole in things (outside of Ghost-types, where you can only rely on Bulldoze/Megahorn), but since everything hits hard, it can only live one attack. Just not a really impressive Pokémon for how late you get it. If given a little more attention it may do things, but I didn't get much meaningful out of it on the fights that mattered outside of two situations (PP Stall Chandelure, pick off Reshiram).
For those curious, I had a Hasty Reckless variant, and it finished at Lv47. Final move-set was Work Up/Revenge/Head Charge/Megahorn.
Final IGT was 9:18 so it was a pretty quick run. I might do another run with different Pokémon soon to test more things out.
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Looking at it at the end of the day with my final team and levels (and I basically rushed through the game) pretty much makes a good case as to why some of the Lv50+ evolutions shouldn't really be going anywhere high or something (ex. Mienfoo): Unless you are going out of your way to grind (the only real grinding I did was a couple of Audino at the start of the game and then some optional trainers to catchup a newly-caught Pokémon), you aren't evolving those before the end of the run, unless it becomes a big crutch like Ferrothorn did for me and gain a bunch of levels in the league, or you are doing something like running a two-three Pokémon team where there's less experience going to other Pokémon. That's not to say you cannot evolve it, but the main point is those really late evolutions look to be really inefficient in general, especially on larger party sizes.
Can it often OHKO after a Curse? I've used it a few times before but can't remember. Oddly I remember it just being kinda there (not horrible though).
Note I do not play with X-items for the most part. Not that I don't like them, I just never really got into the habit of using them.
Palpitoad duuuuuunked on Elesa. I've been running it with Eviolite because its stats are still only okay. Emolgas were hitting for roughly 14% with Aerial Ace, Zebstrika for a little less with Quick Attack. Even though it could only 3HKO the Emolgas, Palitoad still cleanly soloed through both Emolgas, all the Hyper Potions, and Zebstrikas with Aqua Ring set up to recover 6% a turn.
I think Elesa might be one of Palpitoad's saving graces, really. I didn't use mine against her, but she's probably in the top three hardest fights. I think consistently beating her and doing okay-ish elsewhere is grounds for C tier (where it is now). B is possible but the jack of all stats nature prevents it doing anything exceptionally well. Also lack of natural EQ hurts (though Krookodile essentially has this problem too because you get it at level 54 which by the average player's standards is postgame. Still A though thanks to Moxie.) I'd say Simipour is better for the most part. If I can compliment anything, it'd be starting with Bubblebeam, and Muddy Water mid-20s is okay.
Don't forget you can give it Dig via TM once it becomes Sesmitoad.
I was very sad to see that Palpitoed couldn't learn dig itself, but it's been a solid member of the team. Bulky with Eviolite and the water/ground typing is a godsend. I'm thinking about keeping Boldore tbh, with it specifically being paired with Servine it's been performing a very valuable role in tanking Fire (Darumaka) and Flying (Sigilyph, Tranquil) attacks aimed at the rest of my team that are difficult to manage otherwise. Now that it's past the Roggenrola stage it's feeling a lot more natural of a player. Swoobat continues to be very strong, lots of tough route enemies that it just stomps on. Herdier is doing better since acquiring Return and Dig and Crunch but is still suffering from a dearth of power, leaves it open to a lot of chip and or status in a lot of matchups. Servine hasn't been struggling per se, but it's having a hard time finding matchups it can consistently perform in right now.
Just got to Twist Mountain, so brief thoughts.
Stoutland: Still the MVP. It swept Skyla like a boss after a Work Up. Much more efficient than lol Serperior, it takes like 2 damage from -1 Acrobatics and outspeeds and OHKOS everything post Work Up. Heck, I even went into that fight with 75% health and remained in green at the end! And no, it doesn't need Thunder Fang for this matchup really. Now that it has Silk Scarf, the slight power issues should be remedied. It should be noted this wasn't a problem for all trainers, just some things like Sigilyph that consistently lived in red health. As for the setup thing, it's not inefficient if it only needs one to murder everything, can take a hit without X items, and is generally useful everywhere.
Sesmitoad: Eh. Sesmitoad fixes some of the power issues, but even in the rain it couldn't OHKO Unfezant like 7 levels lower, though it swept Cheren anyway. Might do better now that it has the consistent Surf and Dig (note I almost never used Bulldoze over Water STAB).
Scolipede: Definitely better now that it has Megahorn (and just got Silver Powder and Poison Jab). Still though, while it can 2HKO most things, it takes a while to get off the ground. Sewaddle in my eyes still has the edge despite having a similar rut because I don't have to tear my hair out in its base form/go straight to Whirlipede to make it useful. Bug Bite and Poison Tail were okay, but they didn't hit a ton SE which is their main downfalls along with Scolipede's modest 90 Attack, which makes the difference between Scolipede's Megahorn and Leavanny's X-Scissor/Leaf Blade moot. You can maybe make a case for B tier, but only barely, and I'd definitely say it's one of if not the worst thing you can catch in Pinwheel Forest (Inner). Sorry Scolipede. It's a shame too because it looks decent on paper.
Conkeldurr: Wake-Up Slap is iffy at this point (3HKOing a Gurdurr for reference), and I haven't used it a ton since Chargestone Cave. Should be just fine in one area once I get Brick Break though, and it is bulky.
That's all for now.
Stoutland: Still the MVP. It swept Skyla like a boss after a Work Up. Much more efficient than lol Serperior, it takes like 2 damage from -1 Acrobatics and outspeeds and OHKOS everything post Work Up. Heck, I even went into that fight with 75% health and remained in green at the end! And no, it doesn't need Thunder Fang for this matchup really. Now that it has Silk Scarf, the slight power issues should be remedied. It should be noted this wasn't a problem for all trainers, just some things like Sigilyph that consistently lived in red health. As for the setup thing, it's not inefficient if it only needs one to murder everything, can take a hit without X items, and is generally useful everywhere.
Sesmitoad: Eh. Sesmitoad fixes some of the power issues, but even in the rain it couldn't OHKO Unfezant like 7 levels lower, though it swept Cheren anyway. Might do better now that it has the consistent Surf and Dig (note I almost never used Bulldoze over Water STAB).
Scolipede: Definitely better now that it has Megahorn (and just got Silver Powder and Poison Jab). Still though, while it can 2HKO most things, it takes a while to get off the ground. Sewaddle in my eyes still has the edge despite having a similar rut because I don't have to tear my hair out in its base form/go straight to Whirlipede to make it useful. Bug Bite and Poison Tail were okay, but they didn't hit a ton SE which is their main downfalls along with Scolipede's modest 90 Attack, which makes the difference between Scolipede's Megahorn and Leavanny's X-Scissor/Leaf Blade moot. You can maybe make a case for B tier, but only barely, and I'd definitely say it's one of if not the worst thing you can catch in Pinwheel Forest (Inner). Sorry Scolipede. It's a shame too because it looks decent on paper.
Conkeldurr: Wake-Up Slap is iffy at this point (3HKOing a Gurdurr for reference), and I haven't used it a ton since Chargestone Cave. Should be just fine in one area once I get Brick Break though, and it is bulky.
That's all for now.
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Question: why are the monkeys so low? Especially pansear and pansage. They are much more useful then most other things in D, like emolga, pidove or cottonee. Like seriously, pansage and cottonee in the same tier?
I'm currently using a simisear and it is going on an absolute rampage since it evolved. It has great availability, decent stats and typing, an amazing movepool and very favourable matchups. It gets OHKO's more often than 2-HKO's. that does not fit the description of a D tier, but rather a B. I think simisear might fall off a bit soon, but even then it should be C at least. All of the monkeys could rise a tier imo.
I'm currently using a simisear and it is going on an absolute rampage since it evolved. It has great availability, decent stats and typing, an amazing movepool and very favourable matchups. It gets OHKO's more often than 2-HKO's. that does not fit the description of a D tier, but rather a B. I think simisear might fall off a bit soon, but even then it should be C at least. All of the monkeys could rise a tier imo.
I actually questioned this myself when looking at this last night. Thus, a rise is in order.
Pansear, however, is complete garbage until it evolves. I've heard horror stories of it failing ot 6HKO SE with Incinerate. Or like barely doing half HP in a Sewaddle double battle in Pinwheel Forest. Even when you evolve, you are still running off Flame Burst (better than SE Rock Smash) and Bite which you barely actually use. Might rise it to C tier though because the ball DOES roll out later on.
Speaking of Cottonee, does anyone have favorable opinions on it? A friend of mine strongly recommended it, but I've used it a few times and was not exactly impressed. Sure, it's a great supporter, but it actually can't take hits super well as you'd think (40/60/50 bulk is okay but if you go for Cotton Guard this will fall off), hits like a light breeze, and some matches you'd think would be good like Marshal actually screw over Cotton Guard with high-crit moves. Plus not getting Cotton Guard until level 37 when you have to deal with 37 Special Attack on par with Patrat's 35...Once it evolves it's okay, but remember that you have the Special Attack of Swoobat (77).
It makes me sad, because I don't want to bash on an inherently good Pokemon...I just don't see it useful for in-game, and the grind is so long it's nuts.
But, actually...I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. Let's do an analysis because I'm bored. I will use this thing again at some point, mind you.
So, when you catch Cottonee, you likely have the starting moveset of Growth, Leech Seed, Stun Spore and Mega Drain assuming it's not at level 17. This is actually pretty good, all things considered. I'd imagine it can get through Pinwheel Forest okay with all the Sandile the Grunts use, and be decent throughout the Battle Company with the Basculin and Roggenrola guy.
As for Burgh, you could probably Stun Spore Leavanny, and Leech Seed the others. Maybe it can take on Dwebble with Eviolite? You could Stun Spore and Leech Seed Elesa's Zebstrika (remember Electric type isn't paralysis immune prior to Gen 6) which is nice because of high speed and Volt Switch. You could also Charm it if you are level 28 if it is the last Pokemon.
Clay is the obvious favorable matchup. You could maybe solo with Charm, Stun Spore, Leech Seed and Giga Drain. Skyla you could maybe beat Swoobat but the others are unlikely because they run Special moves. You could probably Leech Seed + Stun Spore I guess or set up a Light Screen if you are Whimsicott?
Brycen doesn't work because of Frost Breath. Paralyzing things is fairly useless here aside from Cryogonal. Drayden/Iris has Dragon Tail to screw your buffs, though I guess you can paralyze Haxorus.
Is the E4 any better? You beat half of Shauntal and can set up Light Screen (like Serperior) and you could feasibly solo Grimsley with Cotton Guard, but seeing as Grimsley is easy that's not an accomplishment. Marshal is a no-go because lol crits, and paralyzing anything aside from Mienshao or Sawk won't do you much good (though Conkeldurr does have Sheer Force). Maybe you could Rain Dance + Hurricane (learned at 46) but I don't see you killing things with that. Caitlin you could set up a Light Screen, but I don't see you actually beating any mons without item abuse. Gothitelle has Calm Mind, and Sigilyph has Flying STAB and Ice Beam. So it's a somewhat okay E4. (Huh, why does this sound familiar?)
Final battles. N you could maybe beat in Black with setup on Zekrom but it's doubtful with Archeops there, Zoroark with Flamethrower, Klingklang which resists...Ghetsis you can take on Bouffalant and Seismitoad...however, you can paralyze Hyrdregon through Prankster, so that definitely gives it points. Rivals are average, with you doing most of the same stuff there.
I could maybe rise it to C, but I doubt it could go higher unless I see video evidence. Whimsicott's 60/85/75 bulk is actually marginally worse than Sigilyph's 72/80/80, an offensive mon. Throh, Musharna, and Audino outclass it raw stats wise, and you get all of them earlier. Cotton Guard can alleviate this, but remember, level 37 is a long way to go.
I think accurately tiering all of the Grass types would be the best thing to do at the moment.
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Just curious, did you keep Low Kick on it? Sure the move is of little help while around Pinwheel Forest, given that practically everything is so light, (other than the uncommon/rare Sawk and Throh, but both are pretty bulky at that point in the game) but I figure it would be helpful later when things start to get heavier and thus getting hit for more damage.
No I did not. Running Wake-Up Slap, Dig, Bulk Up, and Rock Slide. Low Kick was too inconsistent to appeal to me. As for Guts, i regret not getting it, but in all honesty the only place status pops up is Elesa's gym.
I finished my white run with Simisear, Leavanny, Minccino, Eelektross and Cobalion. I reset on most major battles to test all of my team members. I´ll try to be a bit more brief in my summary, so if you need some more details about matchups or whatever, I would be happy to elaborate.
Simisear: this thing was much better than expected. Early game was so-so, but not that bad because it had mostly good matchups against cilan and most of pinwheel forest, and after that it could already evolve. Once it does, it is crazy strong for the entirety of the mid game, and to my surprise its power didn't fall off at all in the late game (bulk kinda did though). Movepool is amazing, with dig, grass knot, brick break, acrobatics, rock slide etc. as coverage and even wisp and yawn for utility. Matchups are also amazing.
It destroys Cilan, Burgh, Skyla, Brycan and some more minor rival battles like chargestone cave N effortlesly. It also does very well against Elesa by virtue of stats and Clay by virtue of movepool (grass knot OHKO's both Krokorok and Palpatoad, and it outspeeds Excadrill and puts a major dent in it with flame burst). E4 is also decent. It does a lot of damage to Shauntal and Caitlin with shadow claw. Acrobatics ouspeeds and OHKO's Mienshao and puts heavy damage on the more bulky fighting types. Fire blast OHKO's bisharp and Liepard. Overall, it was extremely good ever since it evolved so I nominate Pansear for B tier
Leavanny: I don't know what you guys did to make Swadloon love you so much, but mine evolved quite late at level 32. It didn't matter too much because eviolite Swadloon held up well, and the evolution was right in time for Clay. Leavanny had some power issues, and it didn't have the bulk or defensive typing to make up for it. It died a lot to random fire or flying coverage. Movepool is decent, but I think it's lacking some utility that most other grass types offer. Leech seed, stun/sleep spore or earlier setup moves could have made it more useful in mid-game matchups, but alas. Matchups were honestly really bad until E4. Like it has 'worse bad matchups' than the other grass types.
Burgh is a mixed bag, dealing with dwebble and Leavanny decently but not reliably. Elesa, Skyla and Marshall are an absolute no go. Clay is good, but it can't break through Excadrill and dies to rock slide, so it wasn't any more useful here then Simisear. It can do some damage to Brycen and Iris but it does nothing very notable in either matchups. I hoped it would finally shine at the E4, but it really wasn't as rosy as it looks on paper. It can't set up on Cofagrigus because wisp. Even with a rawst berry, you can't pull of a setup because it failed to OHKO with shadow claw after TWO sword dances. If you can set up on Golurk you can clear the rest of Shauntals team so decent matchup I guess. Grimsley is same thing. You can't set up on Scafty because poison jab and sand-attack, and Liepard of all things actually beats Leavanny straight up with aerial ace. It misses a KO on Krook (even without intimidate) and it got outsped somehow. Pretty mediocre matchup honestly. Caitlin was easy. One SD and her entire team is dead. It dies to random rock moves on all of Marshals pokemon. Overall, it wasn't bad but not great either. It misses that unique bit of oomph that most other grasses have, like coil, sleep powder or curse + gyro ball combo. I think it wasn't bad enough to drop down to C, barely, so Sewaddle for staying in B tier. I do think the other grass types in B are a lot more reliable though, because they can force something even in bad matchups. So if anyone else thinks Sewaddle should drop, I would be happy to agree.
Minccino: I'm not really sure what to think of this. It has the potential to be great, but it often fails because bad RNG. It's movepool is great, but a lot of it is unreliable. All multi-hit moves are RNG based and have shaky accuracy. It gets PP problems as well, mostly as a result of missing a lot. It does have some good matchups though.
Elesa, Clay, Iris, and Caitlin are mostly neutral matchups. It can do well, but that is mostly based on getting 4 or 5 tail slaps in. It beats Skyla and Brycen easily with rock blast. In the E4, it's useless against Marshall. It can be decent against Grimsley, but wake-up-slap fails to OHKO Bisharp, hell, it failed to OHKO Liepard. It can use bullet seed and rock blast against Shauntal, but again, not reliable. If this thing had skill link, it would be much better. With technician though, I don't think it's reliable enough to make a case for B. So Minccino for staying in C tier. the Lilipup line also does pretty much everything Minccino wants to do better.
Eelektross: first off, it's very rare which doesn't help its case. The fact that it is absolute shit as tynamo and evolves late is actually not that big of a deal with some good planning. If you give it the Exp. share it should reach about level 32 after doing all of route 7 and celestial tower. That's enough for it to hold its own with a lucky egg in Skyla's gym. After clearing all the trainers on its own, its should be around level 36. It also cleared Skyla herself all by itself, which gave it two more levels. That's one rare candy away from having an Eelektross, because you can skip the Eelektric stage completely. I went from cathing Tynamo to having Eelektross in about an hour of gameplay. It then gets a great movepool right away and some great power. The only issue is speed.
Its matchups are decent. It soloes Skyla. It does well against Brycen and Marshall with rock slide and acrobatics respectively. All of the other matchups are basically neutral. It has super effective coverage on almost everything, so it hits very hard in most matchups. Overall, its tynamo stage wasn't nearly as painful as I thought it would be, but its Eelektross stage also wasn't as strong as I had hoped for. Its speed was too low to take advantage of its great power, movepool and typing. It was a bit dissapointing, but also not useless. That's why I nominate Tynamo for D tier
Cobalion: oh boy, this was dissapointing. First of all, it is a nightmare to catch. You need two HM's to even get to it, arguably three because you would rather fly to Driftveil than go through chargestone cave again. Then when you are inside, you also need repels and flash and a shit ton of timer/dusk balls. This all takes more effort than your typical detour. It takes luck to catch it, because its catch rate is bad. When you do get it, it has good stats, but nothing too extraordinary. Its offenses are actually quite modest, weaker than Cinccino even. Movepool is great though, as is its typing.
It destroys both Brycen and Drayden, but the E4 is actually really not great. It can't use its stabs well against shauntal, and it doesn't have enough coverage or power to anything noteworthy here. Grimsley is great overall, but you definitely need to watch out for Scrafty. Krook also lives a sacred sword (again, even without intimidate) and retaliates with a dangerous earthquake. It's useless against Caitlin, unless maybe you have swords dance already (mine didn't). Unboosted X-scissor didn't even 3-HKO Gothitelle. Everything on Marshals team kills it. If it is such a hassle to catch this thing, you at least expect it to destroy whatever is left there to destroy in the end game. However, it is definitely no world destroyer, so it should drop down to B, or even C tier
Simisear: this thing was much better than expected. Early game was so-so, but not that bad because it had mostly good matchups against cilan and most of pinwheel forest, and after that it could already evolve. Once it does, it is crazy strong for the entirety of the mid game, and to my surprise its power didn't fall off at all in the late game (bulk kinda did though). Movepool is amazing, with dig, grass knot, brick break, acrobatics, rock slide etc. as coverage and even wisp and yawn for utility. Matchups are also amazing.
It destroys Cilan, Burgh, Skyla, Brycan and some more minor rival battles like chargestone cave N effortlesly. It also does very well against Elesa by virtue of stats and Clay by virtue of movepool (grass knot OHKO's both Krokorok and Palpatoad, and it outspeeds Excadrill and puts a major dent in it with flame burst). E4 is also decent. It does a lot of damage to Shauntal and Caitlin with shadow claw. Acrobatics ouspeeds and OHKO's Mienshao and puts heavy damage on the more bulky fighting types. Fire blast OHKO's bisharp and Liepard. Overall, it was extremely good ever since it evolved so I nominate Pansear for B tier
Leavanny: I don't know what you guys did to make Swadloon love you so much, but mine evolved quite late at level 32. It didn't matter too much because eviolite Swadloon held up well, and the evolution was right in time for Clay. Leavanny had some power issues, and it didn't have the bulk or defensive typing to make up for it. It died a lot to random fire or flying coverage. Movepool is decent, but I think it's lacking some utility that most other grass types offer. Leech seed, stun/sleep spore or earlier setup moves could have made it more useful in mid-game matchups, but alas. Matchups were honestly really bad until E4. Like it has 'worse bad matchups' than the other grass types.
Burgh is a mixed bag, dealing with dwebble and Leavanny decently but not reliably. Elesa, Skyla and Marshall are an absolute no go. Clay is good, but it can't break through Excadrill and dies to rock slide, so it wasn't any more useful here then Simisear. It can do some damage to Brycen and Iris but it does nothing very notable in either matchups. I hoped it would finally shine at the E4, but it really wasn't as rosy as it looks on paper. It can't set up on Cofagrigus because wisp. Even with a rawst berry, you can't pull of a setup because it failed to OHKO with shadow claw after TWO sword dances. If you can set up on Golurk you can clear the rest of Shauntals team so decent matchup I guess. Grimsley is same thing. You can't set up on Scafty because poison jab and sand-attack, and Liepard of all things actually beats Leavanny straight up with aerial ace. It misses a KO on Krook (even without intimidate) and it got outsped somehow. Pretty mediocre matchup honestly. Caitlin was easy. One SD and her entire team is dead. It dies to random rock moves on all of Marshals pokemon. Overall, it wasn't bad but not great either. It misses that unique bit of oomph that most other grasses have, like coil, sleep powder or curse + gyro ball combo. I think it wasn't bad enough to drop down to C, barely, so Sewaddle for staying in B tier. I do think the other grass types in B are a lot more reliable though, because they can force something even in bad matchups. So if anyone else thinks Sewaddle should drop, I would be happy to agree.
Minccino: I'm not really sure what to think of this. It has the potential to be great, but it often fails because bad RNG. It's movepool is great, but a lot of it is unreliable. All multi-hit moves are RNG based and have shaky accuracy. It gets PP problems as well, mostly as a result of missing a lot. It does have some good matchups though.
Elesa, Clay, Iris, and Caitlin are mostly neutral matchups. It can do well, but that is mostly based on getting 4 or 5 tail slaps in. It beats Skyla and Brycen easily with rock blast. In the E4, it's useless against Marshall. It can be decent against Grimsley, but wake-up-slap fails to OHKO Bisharp, hell, it failed to OHKO Liepard. It can use bullet seed and rock blast against Shauntal, but again, not reliable. If this thing had skill link, it would be much better. With technician though, I don't think it's reliable enough to make a case for B. So Minccino for staying in C tier. the Lilipup line also does pretty much everything Minccino wants to do better.
Eelektross: first off, it's very rare which doesn't help its case. The fact that it is absolute shit as tynamo and evolves late is actually not that big of a deal with some good planning. If you give it the Exp. share it should reach about level 32 after doing all of route 7 and celestial tower. That's enough for it to hold its own with a lucky egg in Skyla's gym. After clearing all the trainers on its own, its should be around level 36. It also cleared Skyla herself all by itself, which gave it two more levels. That's one rare candy away from having an Eelektross, because you can skip the Eelektric stage completely. I went from cathing Tynamo to having Eelektross in about an hour of gameplay. It then gets a great movepool right away and some great power. The only issue is speed.
Its matchups are decent. It soloes Skyla. It does well against Brycen and Marshall with rock slide and acrobatics respectively. All of the other matchups are basically neutral. It has super effective coverage on almost everything, so it hits very hard in most matchups. Overall, its tynamo stage wasn't nearly as painful as I thought it would be, but its Eelektross stage also wasn't as strong as I had hoped for. Its speed was too low to take advantage of its great power, movepool and typing. It was a bit dissapointing, but also not useless. That's why I nominate Tynamo for D tier
Cobalion: oh boy, this was dissapointing. First of all, it is a nightmare to catch. You need two HM's to even get to it, arguably three because you would rather fly to Driftveil than go through chargestone cave again. Then when you are inside, you also need repels and flash and a shit ton of timer/dusk balls. This all takes more effort than your typical detour. It takes luck to catch it, because its catch rate is bad. When you do get it, it has good stats, but nothing too extraordinary. Its offenses are actually quite modest, weaker than Cinccino even. Movepool is great though, as is its typing.
It destroys both Brycen and Drayden, but the E4 is actually really not great. It can't use its stabs well against shauntal, and it doesn't have enough coverage or power to anything noteworthy here. Grimsley is great overall, but you definitely need to watch out for Scrafty. Krook also lives a sacred sword (again, even without intimidate) and retaliates with a dangerous earthquake. It's useless against Caitlin, unless maybe you have swords dance already (mine didn't). Unboosted X-scissor didn't even 3-HKO Gothitelle. Everything on Marshals team kills it. If it is such a hassle to catch this thing, you at least expect it to destroy whatever is left there to destroy in the end game. However, it is definitely no world destroyer, so it should drop down to B, or even C tier
I can agree with most of these opinions. Deep down, I knew Leavanny wasn't the superstar I want it to be on paper. It could drop to C without me complaining too much.
D tier is just right for Tynamo.
I knew Coballion was grossly overrated on the old tier list. I mean you can use it but it's not beating any other Fighting type not named Mienfoo in the listings.
Yeah, despite its advantages, I'm not putting Pansear in B unless Litwick goes there as well. I know Litwick has garbage stats but it pays off with some of the best stats in the game, the best Ghost type in the game, and in general the best Special Attacker despite coming late. Pansear in its base form never OHKOs anything. You likely go through 12 painful levels of awful before you become decent, and by then Darumaka is available. I know the game is lacking in Fire types, but Pansear is easily the weakest monkey of the three. I will concede almost sweeping Clay does help though. Also, the bosses you mentioned it beats effortlessly are some of the easiest sans Clay. Sweeping Skyla, Brycen, and the rivals can be done by anything with as setup move because they all suck more than a vacuum cleaner. I'd sooner keep Snivy in B forever than raise Pansear there.
Exhibit A, old thread:
-Pansear LVL 12 >:(
I boxed this miserable pile of crap as soon as I found out you only need Cut ONCE.
Simply horrible.
Same guy:
Pansear: I boxed this thing as soon as I could. Incinerate is just a terrible move and he's so frail. Garbage Tier.
Exhibit B, old thread:
Fire Monkey (monkeys in general): Worth keeping in your party until you find a replacement, but definitely not past that. Ditched Pansear as soon as I had access to Darumaka and never looked back.
Exhibit C:
Pansear - It came in handy against the rival with just Incinerate, even when his Serperior was level 20~. Boxed in the big city place before route 4, never really used it but it sucked outside of hitting Grass types. Low-Mid Tier
Exhibit D, Colonel M:
Pansear:
Look man, Pansear fucking >6HKOed the first Gym's Pansage, which is... humiliating. STAB Incinerate is so weak it isn't even funny. Panpour and Pansage, while not "gods", at least have a good STAB move behind them (45 vs. 60), and to me they don't have much of a purpose to sticking around when they have a Slow EXP going against them. Pansear gets cursed being in a league worse than most Fire-types.
Exhibit E, in response to the above:
Can we have a tier below Bottom only for him?
Do I need to say any more? Yeah, Pansear is not a champion.
Also, these two comments:
I'd like to push forward the idea of ignoring the ice gym in tiering.
The gym is a cakewalk and the idea of needing a pokemon to win in it is absurd when one considers the millions of weaknesses that ice has and the shittiness of his pokemon...
The ice gym only serves for Cobalion to roflstomp it while you use your 2 exp. shares to strengthen your party.
Even without Cobalion, Darmanitan, Mienfoo and Gurrdurr, heck, even Boldore. The last 3 are just near Icirrus as well.
Additionally, found this in the old thread courtesy of The Cicada:
Dweble: Oh my god this little hermit crab is awesome. It has two decent STABS when you get it, and you catch it right before the electric gym, which Dweble solo'd for me. Just use Stealth Rock and watch Elesa's Emolga's commit suicide, while you also hit them with Smack Down/Rock Tomb. Dig Should take care of Zebstrika no problem. Dweble also rapes the Flying, Ice, and Dragon gyms (thats three in a row). Against the E-4 Crustle just pwned. Against Caitlin, set up Shell Smash, survive Reunciles (or whatever it's called) Psychic, due to Sturdy, then outpace and OHKO everything. Against Shauntal, Set up Shell Smash, get burned by confarigus, eat your Rawst Berry, rape everything with Shadow Claw and Rock Slide. Against Grimsly, set up Shell Smash, and rape. Against Marshal, don't you dare use Crustle against him. Against N, set up Shell Smash against Reshirma/ Zekrom, and then rape. Against Ghetsis i got in two Shell Smash against his confarigus, then OHKO'D it with Shadow Claw. After that i killed 3 more of his Pokemon (including Hydreigon), leaving him with only 2 Pokes left. The only reason i didn't sweep him with Crustle is cuz of Toxic killing me. How can something that owns boss battles so easily be anything but High Tier.
Might have to retest Dwebble. Heck, I could even go get it now if I wanted.
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Cobalion doesn't beat Mienshao either lol. Btw, it's spelled Coballion in the OP, but it should be Cobalion with one l.
I disagree with you on Pansear. I think those horror stories are overexaggerated, because you must have some extraordinarily shitty IV Pansear to not beat Pansage. It is definitely not great early, but the many normal, dark and grass pokemon keep it relevant with rock smash and incinerate. Incinerate is also only marginally weaker than vine whip (35 bp) and water gun (40 bp). You must deprive it of a lot of experience for it to fail 2-HKO'ing random Sewaddles. Most of that trashtalk you brought up from the old thread is from people that ditched Pansear as soon as possible, which means they didn't even try to use it after evolution. That's not fair at all. Most of those exhibits also didn't even give reasons for why they think Pansear is so bad. It's just like, oh the pre-evo sucks so BAM low tier, whithout even trying to use it optimally. Sorry, but I don't feel like those exhibits are good, founded proof that Pansear should be low tier. It's really just trashtalk without proof or a detailed analysis or anything.
No way that Pansear is the worst of the monkeys. It has by far the best matchups, which is more than enough to make up for its marginally weaker early game. Pansage is the weakest, and Panpour is about on par with Pansear. That's why I would personally put Pansear and Panpour in B, and Pansage in C.
Compared to the other fire types, it holds up well too. Compared to Tepig, it has a much better matchup against Cilan, Elesa, Clay and Skyla. It's also better against Caitlin because no phychic weakness and shadow claw and it's better against Marshall because acrobatics. Stat wise, it is comparable in power, but Tepig is much slower than it. Tepig has more bulk, but that is often counterplayed by said lower speed. I'd say Simisear also has a better movepool.
The Things Tepig has over it are a fighting type, which is both a blessing and a curse, a better ability in blaze and better matchups against Lenora and possibly Grimsley. Tepig also has a better early game, but Simisear has a better mid-game. They are quite close in terms of effeciency imo, so there should not be more than a one tier difference. Maybe Tepig is too high?
Darumaka is quite similar. Simisear has a much better mid-game because of its great matchups and high stats at that point. Darumaka might outperform late game, but by then Simisear has had more than enough time to be useful and it's not bad in the E4 either.
I really don't get how you would have no problem putting Litwick in B when you keep saying Pansear is so shit early game. Litwicks stats are EVEN WORSE than Pansears and on top of that, Litwick has to fight stronger pokemon because you are further in game. You might have the lucky egg and exp. share to help, but I think going through 12 levels of awful in the mid game is MUCH worse than going through 12 levels of disapointing when you're still fighting Sewaddles and Patrats. By the time you evolve it to Chandelure, it has just Drayden and the E4 left to leave its mark. By then, Simisear would have destroyed the entire mid game by itself. I'll do a run with Litwick to see how it does in practice, but I really don't think that it has any chance of being more effecient than Simisear.
Aaanyway, I totally forgot that I also used a boldore in my last playthrough up to Mistralton City. I can confirm that it does its job well. It has great matchups against anything but Clay pre E4. I traded it for the Emolga, because I originally wanted to actually use emolga but I needed something for Lenora, so I caught a Roggenrola. I used Emolga for a bit and was sorely disappointed. It destroys Skyla, but so does everything and after that it has not a single good matchup and its stats are just not good enough for time you get it. You can get it a little earlier on route 5, but a 10% encounter rate in rustling grass is just awful and it doesn't get anything done against Elesa or Clay anyway. So, Roggenrola (no trade) to C and Emolga down to E
Alright, that's some sound reasoning. I can see why Pansear is better than Litwick. I'll move it up to B. But why is Pansage in C if it functions identically and has a stronger starting move?
I wouldn't say Simisear has a super better movepool than Tepig though. Grass Knot, Poison Jab, Scald, Wild Charge, Rock Slide, Bulldoze and Hammer Arm are very nice for Emboar. It's just the options tended to not be used because they are unorthodox (Scald) have little coverage (Poison Jab) or are out of the way (Rock Slide). Simisear does have a better movepool, but Emboar's dual STAB and earlier availability offset this.
I think Panpour is worthy of A, actually. You only really have to hunt for it if you choose Tepig, and a 10% encounter rate isn't bad when you can grind off Audino in the meantime with a convenient healing spot nearby. I've used it before (when I chose Snivy) and it ate pretty much everything up to Twist Mountain alive with Scald, and I doubt it would falter after. Being one of the few Water types helps too. I think you could easily grind it to 22 in Castelia pre-Burgh without much trouble, and easily take on everything save Leavanny.
Also, not trying to call anyone out, but it would help if others could chime in whenever me and Magnus0 discuss something. I feel like our arguments are in a separate dimension.
I'm gonna be studying most of today, so keep the discussion civil. School should calm down tomorrow evening, and i should be able to near the end of that playthrough I'm doing.
Minor update: Stoutland is kind of iffy-ish against Brycen. Mine was level 41. With Return it's a range on Vanillish (mine seemed to OHKO when we were at plus 2 Attack and Defense without Silk Scarf). It also seems to OHKO with Silk Scarf guaranteed. With 2 boosts you one-shot Beartic without Silk Scarf, and Cryogonal is easy for obvious reasons. The only one that can "threaten" you is Beartic due to Swagger. Silk Scarf Return 2 shots Beartic easily, but again, Swagger. You can also 2-shot him if you are level 42+ with Return, though it's a range. Though you CAN alleviate this with Persim Berries given by the Rangers on Route 1 if needed. However, you CAN boost up alongside the Vanillish since it can't threaten you. As for Beartic, you can live Icicle Crash in green WITHOUT Intimidate! Cryogonal has Reflect but the only time it used it I crit lol.
TLDR: Brycen is a bit of a luck-based Brycen but Stoutland can handle it easily if you are properly equipped, though it's power is starting to fall off as mons get stronger. But it's still 2HKOing things anyway.
Update 2: Drayden is actually easy for Stoutland. Intimidate in both attempts (which I did for reliability) causes Fraxure to Dance 3 times, allowing you to Work Up twice and OHKO everything. GG, beardman. And in a few levels we'll be able to see if that Work Up + Last Resort strat lives up to the hype. Stoutland is 49, everything else is 47. Sesmitoad still sucks-it fails to OHKO things with rain-boosted Surf several levels higher. Drain Punch for most people is likely post-Plasma Grunts. Scolipede is okay with Megahorn, but that's about it; it almost never one-shots evolved mons without it. Conkeldurr is still great.
Have I mentioned Stoutland's Intimidate bulk is insane? You can even live HJKs from Scrafty in green (might be due to the 10 level gap though)
Discussion Slate: Panpour, monkeys, Litwick, Sewaddle, Ducklett, Tirtouga
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Finally back on my current run, and through Chargestone Cave. Most of my team has evolved now, and Dewott and Darumaka aren't that far from evolving either.
Conkeldurr hasn't contributed that much yet since I evolved it, but even the best Pokemon have the occasional lull in their performance so I won't hold that against this beefy Pokemon... for now.
Leavanny does well enough against the Sandile and Liepard of Team Plasma, though I can't exactly call that an achievement. (the highest was level 28 and Leavanny was level 31) Still, it has yet to disappoint me, though it's almost certainly sitting the Mistralton gym out.
Darumaka cleaned N's clock quite handily, ironically aided by his decision to have Joltik use Gastro Acid on it and thus remove Hustle's accuracy issues. (and everything other than Boldore is weak to Fire) Considering it's struggled to hit wild Joltik while they freely chew on it with Bug Bite earlier in the cave thanks to Hustle, I found this rather hilarious.
Conkeldurr hasn't contributed that much yet since I evolved it, but even the best Pokemon have the occasional lull in their performance so I won't hold that against this beefy Pokemon... for now.
Leavanny does well enough against the Sandile and Liepard of Team Plasma, though I can't exactly call that an achievement. (the highest was level 28 and Leavanny was level 31) Still, it has yet to disappoint me, though it's almost certainly sitting the Mistralton gym out.
Darumaka cleaned N's clock quite handily, ironically aided by his decision to have Joltik use Gastro Acid on it and thus remove Hustle's accuracy issues. (and everything other than Boldore is weak to Fire) Considering it's struggled to hit wild Joltik while they freely chew on it with Bug Bite earlier in the cave thanks to Hustle, I found this rather hilarious.
Elite 4 time. Yeah, Stoutland doesn't really stop wrecking things (lol mine's level atm, started E4 at 53). I'll try to give a more neutral view though.
Grimsley: Sure, you can't quite sweep unless you go out of your way (Scrafty's Intimidated Brick Break does 1/4 of HP) because SAND-ATTACK exists. You OHKO everything at +3 (lowered to +2 because Krook) with Return sans Bisharp, who survives a Dig even at +2. Still though, even you can't sweep, you can take out half the team easy (Scrafty and Liepard). Krook's EQ does a little less than half when not affected by Intimidate.
Caitlin: No sweep here. This fight seems like it'd work in theory. You set up Substitute and wait for Reuniclus's Focus Blast to miss. Except it doesn't. Seriously, Caitlin hit 11 Focus Blasts in a row before I changed my strategy across multiple attempts. You can't just HM Slave her PP either, because, Reuniclus's other moves hit too hard to make that viable. Plus Musharna has Reflect. You DO outspeed Sigilyph though if you have enough levels. While you can't sweep, you can at least contribute with Black-Glasses boosted Crunch on everything sans a lucky Reuniclus.
Marshall: Ironically, the dog's second best matchup, if you make careful use of switching for Intimidate on every member (not efficient, but hey, it turns it into a neutral matchup). If the AI derps on Throh you 2HKO with Silk Scarf Return easily. Same with all his other mons sans Mienshao (likely OHKOed but I crit). Idk if I just got lucky with AI, but I think Mienshao used Rock Slide and missed, and Throh didn't use Storm Throw. You actually live a Hammer Arm from -1 Conkeldurr in yellow. Sawk struggles to break your Intimidate bulk; Karate Chop is a 3HKO.
Shauntal: The one E4 I am confident any player can sweep if your level is around 50, and you have a Rawst Berry handy for Chandelure's Flame Body potential. Set up a Substitute while Cofagrigus fails to Wisp you (sometimes it will only do it twice, sometimes 3 times, it depends). Once you have +2 via Work Up, Crunch OHKOs everything. Cursed Body is usually a non-issue because she always sends out Jellicent last. Had to attempt twice bc of lol Flame Body (when I didn't pack a Rawst Berry), but still the easiest despite how awkward the matchup looks on paper.
Factoring a bunch of resets I did (which these tier lists discourage) I'd say Stoutland is reliable for the E4 with a strong Return and Crunch, plus the boon that is Intimidate. It's actually overshadowing all my other mons, but there is no way big doggy should not be A rank. Even not factoring in E4 it should still be there (other A mons like Sawk and Sigilyph have to sit out E4 members).
Oh, and as for the other members, I'd imagine their ranks wouldn't really change save maybe Conkeldurr, which is on the fringe of B and A imo. Scolipede DOES help with Caitlin, but that's all it really does. I also didn't really use Last Resort.
Onto the final fights!
Grimsley: Sure, you can't quite sweep unless you go out of your way (Scrafty's Intimidated Brick Break does 1/4 of HP) because SAND-ATTACK exists. You OHKO everything at +3 (lowered to +2 because Krook) with Return sans Bisharp, who survives a Dig even at +2. Still though, even you can't sweep, you can take out half the team easy (Scrafty and Liepard). Krook's EQ does a little less than half when not affected by Intimidate.
Caitlin: No sweep here. This fight seems like it'd work in theory. You set up Substitute and wait for Reuniclus's Focus Blast to miss. Except it doesn't. Seriously, Caitlin hit 11 Focus Blasts in a row before I changed my strategy across multiple attempts. You can't just HM Slave her PP either, because, Reuniclus's other moves hit too hard to make that viable. Plus Musharna has Reflect. You DO outspeed Sigilyph though if you have enough levels. While you can't sweep, you can at least contribute with Black-Glasses boosted Crunch on everything sans a lucky Reuniclus.
Marshall: Ironically, the dog's second best matchup, if you make careful use of switching for Intimidate on every member (not efficient, but hey, it turns it into a neutral matchup). If the AI derps on Throh you 2HKO with Silk Scarf Return easily. Same with all his other mons sans Mienshao (likely OHKOed but I crit). Idk if I just got lucky with AI, but I think Mienshao used Rock Slide and missed, and Throh didn't use Storm Throw. You actually live a Hammer Arm from -1 Conkeldurr in yellow. Sawk struggles to break your Intimidate bulk; Karate Chop is a 3HKO.
Shauntal: The one E4 I am confident any player can sweep if your level is around 50, and you have a Rawst Berry handy for Chandelure's Flame Body potential. Set up a Substitute while Cofagrigus fails to Wisp you (sometimes it will only do it twice, sometimes 3 times, it depends). Once you have +2 via Work Up, Crunch OHKOs everything. Cursed Body is usually a non-issue because she always sends out Jellicent last. Had to attempt twice bc of lol Flame Body (when I didn't pack a Rawst Berry), but still the easiest despite how awkward the matchup looks on paper.
Factoring a bunch of resets I did (which these tier lists discourage) I'd say Stoutland is reliable for the E4 with a strong Return and Crunch, plus the boon that is Intimidate. It's actually overshadowing all my other mons, but there is no way big doggy should not be A rank. Even not factoring in E4 it should still be there (other A mons like Sawk and Sigilyph have to sit out E4 members).
Oh, and as for the other members, I'd imagine their ranks wouldn't really change save maybe Conkeldurr, which is on the fringe of B and A imo. Scolipede DOES help with Caitlin, but that's all it really does. I also didn't really use Last Resort.
Onto the final fights!
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Just an update on my run, I grinded a Roggenrola with Battle Company and got a Gigalith before Burgh (I also had a Darumaka in my team to help with Burgh if needed). It also has Iron Defense, which is useful for soloing stuff.
Onto the slate mons, I would support a rise for Litwick, to B preferably. I am talking from past experience now. Shadow Ball TM is obtained in Relic Castle (which you can freely access after Dragonspiral Tower). I remember that I went to Route 10 before Drayden to get a Dusk Stone to evolve Lampent. And I've got to say, Chandelure did amazigly against Drayden. Its Shadow Balls OHKOed Drayden's Fraxure and did a lot to Druddigon. Also, it has rather good E4 matchup: weak to Shauntal, but also strong. Caitlin is even easier to beat. Marshal is okay situation, doesn't like Rock coverage but can destroy because it has that SpA anyways. Grimsley is little bit bad, but it can probably do good against Bisharp (since FBurst is pretty powerful with that unmatched SpA). I can reuse it for my run to see if what I remember is correct (I dropped my starter for fun so I can dedicate a 6th slot for some mon).
Onto the slate mons, I would support a rise for Litwick, to B preferably. I am talking from past experience now. Shadow Ball TM is obtained in Relic Castle (which you can freely access after Dragonspiral Tower). I remember that I went to Route 10 before Drayden to get a Dusk Stone to evolve Lampent. And I've got to say, Chandelure did amazigly against Drayden. Its Shadow Balls OHKOed Drayden's Fraxure and did a lot to Druddigon. Also, it has rather good E4 matchup: weak to Shauntal, but also strong. Caitlin is even easier to beat. Marshal is okay situation, doesn't like Rock coverage but can destroy because it has that SpA anyways. Grimsley is little bit bad, but it can probably do good against Bisharp (since FBurst is pretty powerful with that unmatched SpA). I can reuse it for my run to see if what I remember is correct (I dropped my starter for fun so I can dedicate a 6th slot for some mon).
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