M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #9: Landorus-Therian

[Imperator Romanum]

I haven't been active for almost two years now, so take my input with a grain of salt. However, I think the discussion should be focused on Landorus-therian instead of Explosion. Smogons policy has always been to ban the suspected pokemon rather than nerfing the pokemon with a complex ban. I don't see how this suspect test should be any different, we haven't done so for the other 8 suspect tests in Mix and Mega - lets not start now. With the limited time we have we should listen to Chloe and the council and discuss wether or not Landorus-Therian, not explosion, is broken in the current Metagame and if a ban is necessary. Good luck on reaching reqs everyone! It's nice to see the OM community is thriving and Chloe's doing a great job.

unban gigas

(might update this later if I reach reqs)

 

[DF-Shock]

Why not create a poll to see if Explosion OR Lando-T should be suspected?

In BH, to nerf Sleep, we get a poll to see if we suspect Sleep Move like Spore/Lovely Kiss, or if we try to implement Sleep Clause or if we will do nothing against the sleep. It avoids controversy about if we suspect the right thing... With this solution, the community can give his opinion and you can see what is really broken.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

https://gyazo.com/4dd2f86ed70487bf0d2c4ac21da3d9cc
It was a quiet winter day, with the sunlight finishing its peeking, and shot out into the full sky, shining down on the snow-covered land. The world didn't know it yet, but this was the stage where a big change was about to happen. A large figure adorned with dragon-like regelia stormed through the snowy path, with a shimmer that appeared to defy the sun itself. With blatant disregard to the risk of falling on ice, he rushed to a nearby building, holding a great power(see above) in hand. "Yes, this will be perfect", Zephyr reassured himself, coming upon a library. As the entrance swung open, several people within dropped what they were doing and gawked. But Zephyr did not care, and continued onwards undaunted towards a computer. His scribe, a Flygon, handed him a sheet of notes, and then after navigating through the webways, his fingers started dancing like bees would around flowers....

And so it's time. I thank you all for having this suspect, and I feel like it's done well in giving this community a little more life. Let's preface this a little further by stating I will be voting No ban for Landorus-Therian. There's a few reasons I want to do this, but first, let's have an overview of what Landorus does, and why this is being considered in the first place.

First of all, there are 3 main stones that Landorus-Therian uses. Altarianite, Pinsirite, and Salamencite. The latter two have roles that are very similar to each other in this situation (giving Landorus a Flying STAB it desires greatly), and the former grants Landorus with a new Fairy STAB, though it does not speed up Landorus at all. More on that particular point a bit later. It's number 9 on the usage stats, which is pretty popular, though not overbearingly so. The effectiveness of Landorus comes from the combination of Return/Frustration and Earthquake which, alongside boosting moves of Swords Dance and Rock Polish, allows it to tear though most of what it touches, though there's a few things that wall it.
...Until it explodes. Over 55% of Landorus-Therians carry this move, meaning this is a pretty common out to something harrying them very well.

And you might be thinking now: "I thought this was supposed to be a no ban argument!" ...but I haven't quite gone into my own points yet. Calculus may have been invoked, but let's go deeper still, to calculus of the soul. (which is probably derivatives or something) Let's talk about Explosion itself. The move is an incredibly powerful move that faints the user. Normally, this isn't worth it because it's Normal-typed. But with -ate stones, it quickly becomes a viable option due to blasting a would be counter out of the water. Sounds good, right? ....If only life were that simple, bud. At best, you take out 2 things with Landorus if you plan on exploding. At worst, they see it coming, and either sack something, or simply heal off the damage. And this all assumes Landorus can outspeed whatever's tasked with answering it. Altarianite has this even harder than other sets, where it loses to similar speeds to Raikou where the other sets win. In exchange, Altarianite has a much easier time with flying Electrics and Mandibuzz than the flying type stones do. People that are good won't let Landorus into a position where Explosion highly benefits the user if their team can help it.

And indeed, Landorus has flaws. Before that, though.... I'd like to thank other people for inputting their opinions here. It's not just the awareness of the top players that matter. It's the awareness of the many. And above, you many notice that Explosion was calced with a +2 on Skarmory. That has an opportunity cost. Lando is giving up a support move, the ability to double dance, or even some additional coverage (which is much less necessary than it can seem, to be fair). If the opponent knows this, and is fine with the Explosion trade, the person who did the Explosion is actually disadvantaged if Landorus did nothing else of value. In addition, Landorus is a bit slow and has a soft Special Defense for Mix and Mega standards. This makes bringing it in against most special-based threats quite risky. Pdon can harm it with Overheat. Magearna can just RKO it out of nowhere. (I highly recommend you don't switch into Mage with Lando, if you don't have that instinct already) Zygarde and Entei both chip Landorus on switch in... and the latter can burn you if it sees you coming, which makes everything almost a non-issue. All of this said... a bit of chip is enough for Landorus to start feeling the heat. If a scuffle leaves Landorus within Espeed range, it's basically got a target on its back, and there's very little that can change that.

And this pressure only gets worse when you have Water and Ice type attackers (or just Pokemon with those kinds of moves, if they're strong enough) faster than Landorus. These make you wish you had Rock Polish... which isn't possible if Lando's running Explosion (and still wants to beat Skarm and co. with it). Manaphy gets free reign to either set up or hurt Lando. Weavile forces it out. Arceus-Water can defog hazards away, if it so wishes. And so forth. It's not going to get the job alone, and if it's immediately forced into a bad spot, the hand is pretty much forced, which can be abused, as well... Bulky waters, particularly those engineered to take on Pdon, also give Landorus huge problems. Most of them can either OHKO or 2HKO Landorus, and some just resist Landorus altogether, thanks to the fact it rarely runs coverage thanks to its innate strengths. Of course, this is all what a team is for, and if something goes wrong, you (might) be able to lessen the problems by switching. But the flaws do remain, and lessen Landorus from becoming a destroyer of worlds.

Lastly... there's one thing it seems you all forgot..... perhaps it's not important, but perhaps it's the most important thing here. Landorus has an Incarnate forme. I'll let that sink in for a second.

So what'ya going to do about it? Ignore it because Intimidate is an important advantage of Landorus? Suspect that too because it can also blow up and set up with similar results, and also wield special sets better? Or does that Attack stat make everything a dealbreaker? I leave you all with that, and rest my case.

 

[Andyboy]

https://gyazo.com/4dd2f86ed70487bf0d2c4ac21da3d9cc
It was a quiet winter day, with the sunlight finishing its peeking, and shot out into the full sky, shining down on the snow-covered land. The world didn't know it yet, but this was the stage where a big change was about to happen. A large figure adorned with dragon-like regelia stormed through the snowy path, with a shimmer that appeared to defy the sun itself. With blatant disregard to the risk of falling on ice, he rushed to a nearby building, holding a great power(see above) in hand. "Yes, this will be perfect", Zephyr reassured himself, coming upon a library. As the entrance swung open, several people within dropped what they were doing and gawked. But Zephyr did not care, and continued onwards undaunted towards a computer. His scribe, a Flygon, handed him a sheet of notes, and then after navigating through the webways, his fingers started dancing like bees would around flowers....

And so it's time. I thank you all for having this suspect, and I feel like it's done well in giving this community a little more life. Let's preface this a little further by stating I will be voting No ban for Landorus-Therian. There's a few reasons I want to do this, but first, let's have an overview of what Landorus does, and why this is being considered in the first place.

First of all, there are 3 main stones that Landorus-Therian uses. Altarianite, Pinsirite, and Salamencite. The latter two have roles that are very similar to each other in this situation (giving Landorus a Flying STAB it desires greatly), and the former grants Landorus with a new Fairy STAB, though it does not speed up Landorus at all. More on that particular point a bit later. It's number 9 on the usage stats, which is pretty popular, though not overbearingly so. The effectiveness of Landorus comes from the combination of Return/Frustration and Earthquake which, alongside boosting moves of Swords Dance and Rock Polish, allows it to tear though most of what it touches, though there's a few things that wall it.
...Until it explodes. Over 55% of Landorus-Therians carry this move, meaning this is a pretty common out to something harrying them very well.

And you might be thinking now: "I thought this was supposed to be a no ban argument!" ...but I haven't quite gone into my own points yet. Calculus may have been invoked, but let's go deeper still, to calculus of the soul. (which is probably derivatives or something) Let's talk about Explosion itself. The move is an incredibly powerful move that faints the user. Normally, this isn't worth it because it's Normal-typed. But with -ate stones, it quickly becomes a viable option due to blasting a would be counter out of the water. Sounds good, right? ....If only life were that simple, bud. At best, you take out 2 things with Landorus if you plan on exploding. At worst, they see it coming, and either sack something, or simply heal off the damage. And this all assumes Landorus can outspeed whatever's tasked with answering it. Altarianite has this even harder than other sets, where it loses to similar speeds to Raikou where the other sets win. In exchange, Altarianite has a much easier time with flying Electrics and Mandibuzz than the flying type stones do. People that are good won't let Landorus into a position where Explosion highly benefits the user if their team can help it.

And indeed, Landorus has flaws. Before that, though.... I'd like to thank other people for inputting their opinions here. It's not just the awareness of the top players that matter. It's the awareness of the many. And above, you many notice that Explosion was calced with a +2 on Skarmory. That has an opportunity cost. Lando is giving up a support move, the ability to double dance, or even some additional coverage (which is much less necessary than it can seem, to be fair). If the opponent knows this, and is fine with the Explosion trade, the person who did the Explosion is actually disadvantaged if Landorus did nothing else of value. In addition, Landorus is a bit slow and has a soft Special Defense for Mix and Mega standards. This makes bringing it in against most special-based threats quite risky. Pdon can harm it with Overheat. Magearna can just RKO it out of nowhere. (I highly recommend you don't switch into Mage with Lando, if you don't have that instinct already) Zygarde and Entei both chip Landorus on switch in... and the latter can burn you if it sees you coming, which makes everything almost a non-issue. All of this said... a bit of chip is enough for Landorus to start feeling the heat. If a scuffle leaves Landorus within Espeed range, it's basically got a target on its back, and there's very little that can change that.

And this pressure only gets worse when you have Water and Ice type attackers (or just Pokemon with those kinds of moves, if they're strong enough) faster than Landorus. These make you wish you had Rock Polish... which isn't possible if Lando's running Explosion (and still wants to beat Skarm and co. with it). Manaphy gets free reign to either set up or hurt Lando. Weavile forces it out. Arceus-Water can defog hazards away, if it so wishes. And so forth. It's not going to get the job alone, and if it's immediately forced into a bad spot, the hand is pretty much forced, which can be abused, as well... Bulky waters, particularly those engineered to take on Pdon, also give Landorus huge problems. Most of them can either OHKO or 2HKO Landorus, and some just resist Landorus altogether, thanks to the fact it rarely runs coverage thanks to its innate strengths. Of course, this is all what a team is for, and if something goes wrong, you (might) be able to lessen the problems by switching. But the flaws do remain, and lessen Landorus from becoming a destroyer of worlds.

Lastly... there's one thing it seems you all forgot..... perhaps it's not important, but perhaps it's the most important thing here. Landorus has an Incarnate forme. I'll let that sink in for a second.

So what'ya going to do about it? Ignore it because Intimidate is an important advantage of Landorus? Suspect that too because it can also blow up and set up with similar results, and also wield special sets better? Or does that Attack stat make everything a dealbreaker? I leave you all with that, and rest my case.

You put a lot of work into writing this post and it was a fun read so thank you for that and all of the other continued work you put into the MnM community Zephyr. I don't agree with everything you spoke on by any means, but i'm going to address your last point about Lando-I (because I think that deserves expounding on and is very easily cleared up.) So, what're we going to do about it? We're going to ignore it in relation to this Landorus-T suspect because in all intents and purposes, Lando-I is a separate Pokemon from Lando-T in MnM and is significantly worse at accomplishing the things Lando-T can.

We are going to ignore it because yes, Intimidate is a very key advantage for Lando-T that is one of the many reasons it is so good right now. Without Intimidate, Lando can't tank key hits from breakers like Kartana, Terrakion, Zygarde, I could go on but I think the fact that Intimidate is essential for stopping the three potent breakers I just mentioned should be enough to prove my point, both forms can tank an unboosteed hit after mega evolving, but the key differences here stem from Lando-I being unable to pivot in on attacks (such as Terrakion's Close Combat and then having the ability to live the following Stone Edge, something Lando-T can do and Lando-I cannot) because it is just so vulnerable without a means of initially weakening the Pokemon it wishes to check. Also, god help you if they manage to set up and you wanted to revenge them without the help of Intimidate.

I think the fact that Lando-I is some special powerhouse in OMs particularly in MnM, is a misconception as well. Trust me, i've tried using it for the sake of a special set... It doesn't work. Why? Because Lando-I's special attack stat actually isn't that much higher than Lando-T's and and one of the primary reasons it is so powerful and was banned from OU and is considered so overwhelming is because of its canon ability Sheer Force. Things are different here, it's advantageous to run a Mega Stone on your Pokemon and there's no mega stone that grants Lando-I the same level of benefit that it grants Lando-T as it certainly can't abuse the ate stones as well.

The additional speed Lando-I gets over Lando-T really isn't all that practical as well considering Lando-T with Salamencite already has a pretty unique speed tier after mega evolving coupled with its great bulk with Intimidate so there really isn't much you can outspeed with Lando-I > Lando-T besides Timid Lucarionite Tapu Lele, Red Orb Azelf, and Max Speed Arceus forms (which people really shouldn't be using anyways.) Everything else that threatens Lando either still outspeeds or Lando-T already outsped before so I don't think the added speed is a great reason for a severely underwhelming Pokemon such as Lando-I should be used. The attack stat has little relevance here, it's more the lack of Intimidate, the fact that its special niche is borderline irrelevant in Mix and Mega, and I disagree with the point that Lando-I can set up with similar results to Lando-T. Once again, Intimidate is an essential tool that assists Lando-T in finding a window to set up or do whatever else it pleases. It truly is a subpar option as should be apparent to most by how dead it remains in the meta.

If Lando-I finds a place in the meta and reaches similar levels as Lando-T and we feel it's a significant problem that needs addressing then yes we will suspect that too, that's how it should be and there's nothing wrong with that. However, I seriously doubt that will ever happen.

 

[The Consort]

Reqs

Pop Quiz

A+ to anyone who understands where the name LTS Transporter came from.

My personal thought process is much like what QT said here. Lando-T is frankly the wrong suspect:
1. Zygarde currently isn't broken despite being able to do the same type dance that Lando-T can, as well as having other viable sets such as Lucarionite or Power Construct.
2. Explosion is the real problem, as can be seen on Magearna with Shift Gear + Explosions sets which can nuke things just as well. I didn't see Genesect, Metagross, or Lando-I as I was laddering, so I could not determine if they were broken with it too, but that is likely because they are generally outclassed by the former two.

Lando T is definitely the most threatening user of Explosion, which is why I was originally pro-ban; however, there are things like Lati Mage or opposing Lando T's that can force out the explosion, or make the opponent lose momentum. It is something to prepare for, yes, but I do think that the metagame can adjust itself to it, and Lando T itself really isn't broken. No Ban. Now, if we were to have an Explosion suspect, I would vote ban then, but Chloe already confirmed that won't happen, so here we are...

 

[Vhayle]

Did you bother reading the thread? I implore you to read this, this, and this.

I did read everything, so i'll try to make a more relevant post here.
So, you would prefer to suspect both Landorus-T and Magearna (not only but mostly) because of Explosion and not because of the mons themselves. As you said, if gives me Deoxys-S/Zap Cannon/Pidgeotite PTSD, and here is where i don't understand. You prefer to make the exact same mistakes as before by banning mons instead of moves/stones, which ended up in banning then unbanning Darkrai, Shaymin-Sky. These bans were done not because of the mons themselves but because they were too strong with pidgeotite ; or more precisely because they had options that were too strong with Pidgeotite (Dark Void/Grass Whistle/Zap Cannon). btw Xurkitree just avoided the suspect... luckily. And here we are, suspecting Lando-T not only but mostly because of Explosion, which will (don't try to deny it, if this Explosion user is gone, other Explosion users will be used more) lead to a suspect of Magearna not only but mostly because Explosion is a free OHKO after a shift gear (or at least it doesn't let the opponent in a comfortable HP range). You may say that Lando-T has a Ground/Flying type + rocks + SD, but Mage (with pinsirite) has Explosion too, Steel/Flying type is really good and has Heal Bell + Shift Gear, Metagross has Steel/Flying too + rocks, the list could go on with a lot of Pokémon just with Explosion. So I ask you again, why don't you cut the problem where it could avoid more Pokémon bans ? Why make the same mistakes as before?

ps: Landorus-T isn't broken without Explosion anyway, he's just a really good mon like dozens of other Pokémons... but i'll make a post about this with my reqs.

i'll vote no ban because i don't want to go on a suspect chain with the same exact source (Pidgeotite in the past, Explosion now)

 

[Chloe]

90 minutes until daily tournament for reqs in the OM room. Reminder to be there as winner and runner up are given reqs automatically if they haven't gotten them already.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

Well, I'm glad I didn't need to answer for more things regarding that post. In regards to that final point, I agree with pretty much everything there, excluding the fact that special sets aren't viable. It's definitely not on the level of Landorus-Incarnate, but Cameruptite and Diancite sets would both have real power backing them. Mainly, I wanted to make sure you all had a plan for that, if it ever came up... I'm glad you do.

 

[Fardin]

And you might be thinking now: "I thought this was supposed to be a no ban argument!" ...but I haven't quite gone into my own points yet. Calculus may have been invoked, but let's go deeper still, to calculus of the soul. (which is probably derivatives or something) Let's talk about Explosion itself. The move is an incredibly powerful move that faints the user. Normally, this isn't worth it because it's Normal-typed. But with -ate stones, it quickly becomes a viable option due to blasting a would be counter out of the water. Sounds good, right? ....If only life were that simple, bud. At best, you take out 2 things with Landorus if you plan on exploding. At worst, they see it coming, and either sack something, or simply heal off the damage. And this all assumes Landorus can outspeed whatever's tasked with answering it. Altarianite has this even harder than other sets, where it loses to similar speeds to Raikou where the other sets win. In exchange, Altarianite has a much easier time with flying Electrics and Mandibuzz than the flying type stones do. People that are good won't let Landorus into a position where Explosion highly benefits the user if their team can help it.

And indeed, Landorus has flaws. Before that, though.... I'd like to thank other people for inputting their opinions here. It's not just the awareness of the top players that matter. It's the awareness of the many. And above, you many notice that Explosion was calced with a +2 on Skarmory. That has an opportunity cost. Lando is giving up a support move, the ability to double dance, or even some additional coverage (which is much less necessary than it can seem, to be fair). If the opponent knows this, and is fine with the Explosion trade, the person who did the Explosion is actually disadvantaged if Landorus did nothing else of value. In addition, Landorus is a bit slow and has a soft Special Defense for Mix and Mega standards. This makes bringing it in against most special-based threats quite risky. Pdon can harm it with Overheat. Magearna can just RKO it out of nowhere. (I highly recommend you don't switch into Mage with Lando, if you don't have that instinct already) Zygarde and Entei both chip Landorus on switch in... and the latter can burn you if it sees you coming, which makes everything almost a non-issue. All of this said... a bit of chip is enough for Landorus to start feeling the heat. If a scuffle leaves Landorus within Espeed range, it's basically got a target on its back, and there's very little that can change that.

And this pressure only gets worse when you have Water and Ice type attackers (or just Pokemon with those kinds of moves, if they're strong enough) faster than Landorus. These make you wish you had Rock Polish... which isn't possible if Lando's running Explosion (and still wants to beat Skarm and co. with it). Manaphy gets free reign to either set up or hurt Lando. Weavile forces it out. Arceus-Water can defog hazards away, if it so wishes. And so forth. It's not going to get the job alone, and if it's immediately forced into a bad spot, the hand is pretty much forced, which can be abused, as well... Bulky waters, particularly those engineered to take on Pdon, also give Landorus huge problems. Most of them can either OHKO or 2HKO Landorus, and some just resist Landorus altogether, thanks to the fact it rarely runs coverage thanks to its innate strengths. Of course, this is all what a team is for, and if something goes wrong, you (might) be able to lessen the problems by switching. But the flaws do remain, and lessen Landorus from becoming a destroyer of worlds.

So what'ya going to do about it? Ignore it because Intimidate is an important advantage of Landorus? Suspect that too because it can also blow up and set up with similar results, and also wield special sets better? Or does that Attack stat make everything a dealbreaker? I leave you all with that, and rest my case.

"People that are good won't let Landorus into a position where Explosion highly benefits the user if their team can help it."
that is an incredibly bold statement to make. giving lando's bulk, it can live at least 1 to 2 hits from a LOT of walls and even vs offensive mons... hence why it needing to outspeed other shit in order to get the exposion going isnt a must. The bulk also gives it the choice to not explode immediately , which in turn gives it more opportunities to get the predicts right. on the other hand tho the "good" players who r trying to predict the explosion will only get 1 chance to get it right, and if the lando user isnt exploding but rather just decides to return/eq, ur fucked m8. also healing off damage isnt gonna do u much if it has access to SD. plus, ur completely disregarding the set up opportunities it provides + stopping defogs. explosion is just an unhealthy move if u ask me overall on anything that at least has 100 b attack stat lol

overall i agree lando got its flaws, but as i said to some other dude earlier on this thread, ur underestimating what explosion does.

this whole mons over move argument is fair, but explosion is something that gives literally any mon with an average attack stat a 1 time deadly opportunity, which is harmful af to the game. I've seen it with lead alt mew, pins mage/gross and even genesect countless times. they might not be as useful as lando when it comes to other roles, but with explosion they are just as broken for that 1 turn. and that 1 turn is the biggest reason lando is being suspected rn. even if all a mon could do is explode, that in itself is incredibly unhealthy and not competitive. fact that it can just come in and explode with a 250 bp move + stab, leaving w.e the opponent had dead/crippled while also providing momentum is nuts. no other legal move can even compare to the cancerness it brings to the meta. there is no "good" play against this move, except lookin for a sack or try and heal up for a select few mons. very ohko-like move feel

 

[Andyboy]

I did read everything, so i'll try to make a more relevant post here.
So, you would prefer to suspect both Landorus-T and Magearna (not only but mostly) because of Explosion and not because of the mons themselves. As you said, if gives me Deoxys-S/Zap Cannon/Pidgeotite PTSD, and here is where i don't understand. You prefer to make the exact same mistakes as before by banning mons instead of moves/stones, which ended up in banning then unbanning Darkrai, Shaymin-Sky. These bans were done not because of the mons themselves but because they were too strong with pidgeotite ; or more precisely because they had options that were too strong with Pidgeotite (Dark Void/Grass Whistle/Zap Cannon). btw Xurkitree just avoided the suspect... luckily. And here we are, suspecting Lando-T not only but mostly because of Explosion, which will (don't try to deny it, if this Explosion user is gone, other Explosion users will be used more) lead to a suspect of Magearna not only but mostly because Explosion is a free OHKO after a shift gear (or at least it doesn't let the opponent in a comfortable HP range). You may say that Lando-T has a Ground/Flying type + rocks + SD, but Mage (with pinsirite) has Explosion too, Steel/Flying type is really good and has Heal Bell + Shift Gear, Metagross has Steel/Flying too + rocks, the list could go on with a lot of Pokémon just with Explosion. So I ask you again, why don't you cut the problem where it could avoid more Pokémon bans ? Why make the same mistakes as before?

ps: Landorus-T isn't broken without Explosion anyway, he's just a really good mon like dozens of other Pokémons... but i'll make a post about this with my reqs.

i'll vote no ban because i don't want to go on a suspect chain with the same exact source (Pidgeotite in the past, Explosion now)

C'mon dude, Chloe stated in the op that she doesn't want this discussion derailed by Explosion. If you read everything you should know that this is exactly the kind of thing we're trying to avoid. I'll restate what Chloe said earlier but whether Landorus-T is broken with or without Explosion here is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that it possesses and utilizes this move frequently so you MUST consider Landorus-T with Explosion as one package for this suspect and stop thinking about them as two separate things.

Getting straight to the point here, I feel you're very mistaken about a Magerana suspect in the event that Landorus gets banned. I'm not sure why you're so adamant that this is going to happen, but I sure am going to deny it because a Magearna suspect isn't even remotely on the horizon right now and the emergence of Explosion Pinsirite Magearna sure hasn't done anything to change that. There's no guarantee that this won't change in the future, but Landorus being banned and the notion that Pinsirite Magearna with Explosion will rise in its absence and be abused to the point of a Magearna suspect just isn't likely in the slightest.

Considering I coined Explosion Pinsirite Magearna on a webs team during the Naganadel suspect, I feel I can speak on where its strengths and limitations lie. I put it on that webs because it offered that playstyle some semblance of a switch-in to Tapu Lele, Darkrai, Landorus, and ironically, other Pinsirite Magearnas depending on your set. It is good at giving you that one extra turn to switch in that would normally have to result in a sack and can quickly shift momentum over to your side by either forcing a trade or heavily chipping a resist to open a hole for one of your other breakers. It has some great strengths but Explosion variants really doesn't have much of a place other than on heavily offensive teams because you usually can't afford to be throwing out your Magearna quickly in long balance games or such and it certainly isn't a "game breaking Pokemon" that will tip Mage over the edge for a suspect.

Furthermore, I think you're overestimating this mon's utility compared to Landorus. Shift Gear is great, but lacks immediate power and allows it to be quickly neutralized by pretty much any flying resist that has super effective coverage, Heal Bell is a rare utility move that I think is neat but it certainly doesn't compare to something like the Stealth Rock Landorus can provide. Its typing is great defensively, but Landorus' typing is amazing offensively. Landorus also has Intimidate, Defog, U-turn Rock Polish if it wishes to boost its speed and many other underutilized utility moves.

I'm not arguing Landorus-T should be banned since i'm not sure where I stand on that yet. However, the fixation on Explosion in this suspect threat and the fear that this is the start of slowly suspecting and weeding out Pokemon that possess the move seems to persist, is inaccurate, and needs to stop. I don't want to be rude or unfair, but i'm frustrated and sick of seeing this repeated.

 

[Chloe]

I oopsed and was told the wrong people for the daily tour oops, but now I have it right so we're good.

Congratulations to Flaming Deoxys on getting automatic reqs for reaching the final of today's daily! Congrats to Chazm for getting reqs twice, unfortunately it only counts once though, rip.

 

[gengariza]

I vote for the ban of landorus-t with a stone. because the poke is too strong: explosion = 1kill and the sword dance set is hard to counter.

 

[The Strap]

Ban.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

There has only ever been one consistently top tier pokemon in Mix and Mega, Primal Groudon, the undisputed king in all gamemodes he's allowed in. All other pokemon rise and fall in viability over time as the metagame adapts and changes with time.

Landorus-Therian is no exception to this rule. He too has risen and fallen from grace over the four years of Mix and Mega. I remember when Mix and Mega were in its infancy. Stumbling around blind we ranked Landorus-Therian S rank, and for what set? Mega Mewtwo X. It seems laughable now, but at the time there were calls for a quick ban. With time the metagame changed, and Landorus-Therian wasn't top tier again for a while. But Landorus-Therian is not the only pokemon who has experienced this! Cresselia was also suspected at the start of ORAS, and now it's not even ranked anymore.

This is a lesson. We can't, and should not, ban something unless we believe it's broken in this meta and all the metas to come. The fact that multiple pokemon that were unbanned at the start of ORAS isn't even top tier anymore should tell us to be humble, and how much the metagame can adapt, adjust and overcome challenges if given time. Though it shouldn't be ignored that some of these mons were banned again. Deoxys-D, Genesect, Lucario, Aegislash, Darkrai, Shaymin-Sky, Manaphy and Cresselia are all examples of pokemon we either assumed broken and banned or wanted to be suspected at one point who are no longer top tier(Should be noted how much the pidgeotite ban helped). A lot can change over time, not everything is Regigigas in disguise.

When a pokemon with 120/170/180 bulk, magic bounce, recovery and calm mind is not even ranked anymore that should tell us something about the power levels in Mix and Mega and the criteria for suspecting anything should be, right?

And that brings us to Landours-Therian. It's clear to me that Landorus-Therian has never been as strong as it is right now. It's never been more threatening and harder to build around. It's found its place in the metagame, moving away from meme-sets and closer towards the wallbreaker role it excels it. I don't know why it's not S ranked at the moment, but that's neither here nor there. Most of Landorus-Ts strong sides have already been excellently been explained by the many active contributors to Mix and Mega and of course Chloe. It's honestly made me very uncertain on what my vote should be. On one hand, I strongly believe what I said above but on the other Landorus-Therian is impossible to build around with the explosion SD set. It absolutely destroys any kind of balance/stall build and centralising the metagame around offence. I'm just going to post some calcs I threw together real quick, Landorus-T w/ Adamant facing the most common defensive checks in the metagame - assuming SD on the switch. Keep in mind most of these are dead after rocks even if Lando is jolly.

SABLENITE +2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 275-324 (82.3 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
LATIASITE +2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
SPLASH PLATE +2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 777-915 (175 - 206%) -- guaranteed OHKO
SHADOW SHIELD +2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 2522 HP / 252+ Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 475-559 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO
AGGRONITE +2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 552-649 (132 - 155.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
SABLENITE +2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz: 657-774 (156 - 183.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
SABLENITE +2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 399-471 (163.5 - 193%) -- guaranteed OHKO
MULTISCALE +2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 366-432 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
SABLENITE +2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 523-616 (172 - 202.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
SABLENITE +2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 357-420 (92.9 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
SLOWBRONITE +2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 1017-1197 (142.4 - 167.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And just to get my point across;
SABLENITE +2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-C: 595-702 (93.5 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

The problem is clearly explosion, but since we're not doing complex bans then there's a pretty good chance, despite what I said earlier, that I will have to vote ban. However, I want to point out some of Landorus-Therians flaws.

First of all, and this is the biggest, it doesn't sweep very well. For all its power and might it's simply a tiny bit too slow in the metagame to consistently sweep the same way its competitors, Magearna, Lucario, Cobalion and Zygarde can pull off. I often found myself getting revenge killed by Arceus-W, Keldeo, Golisopod, Kartana, Terrak etc. Since I couldn't fit rock polish on the set it functioned more as a wallbreaker than a sweeper. The lack of speed means you will get revenge killed if you try to sleep early on, even with the immense bulk Landorus-T has on the physical side.
Second, it's not very unpredictable. Since, in my mind at least, the Salamencite set/Altarianite set is the only ones top tier Landourus-T has lost a bit of its versatility. Pdon is a better rocker, Arceus and Zapdos are better defoggers and you already grab momentum with explosion so U-turn isn't all that necessary.

Honestly, I started of certain that Landorus-Therian shouldn't be banned but now I'm not so sure. The absolute lack of defensive answers makes me very uneasy and not sure what to vote. I don't see how anything can "adapt" to SD explosion when it kills even resisted hits. There are good arguments on both sides, so for the moment, I'll reserve my vote until the time is up.
I look forward to hearing the discussion on this!

Good luck on the ladder guys, nice to see MnM is still active!

 

[The Immortal]

 

[Championleplusnul]

 

[anaconja]

 

[Andyboy]

Not sure what i'm voting yet and need to give it quite a bit more thought before I decide. One thing i'm very unhappy with the distain and indignant nature of some within this thread and elsewhere on discord and showdown related to this suspect. Mix and Mega has developed into a metagame that has quite a few powerful threats that are seen frequently, are all difficult to prep for, and can all annihilate your team if you don't do an adequate job prepping for them. What this means in relation to a suspect like this is EVERYONE seems to have their own opinion about what should be getting suspected whether that be Zygarde, Pdon, Magearna, Terrakion, Landorus, Kartana or even Lunala.

This Lando-T suspect is the first suspect we've held where I feel there isn't a clear outcome. It isn't something like Naganadel or Marshadow where it was clear the community wanted them gone and the suspect results reflected that. With that said, there is absolutely no problem with holding a suspect on a Pokemon like Landorus-T even if there wasn't a widespread community outcry for it to go and I don't think it's a waste of time or foolish to do so what-so-ever. Again, we've been asked to suspect 6 different Pokemon and a move repeatedly throughout the last few months. Everyone has their opinion on what needs to go.

If you truly feel Lando-T isn't the right guy to go, please offer some good discussion on why you feel this way. And no, "lul it gets walled by skarmory and celesteela not broken" is not good discussion... If you think it deserves to go, once again please good discussion. not "omg boom is broken idc about lando but boom is busted" once again, good discussion. Will likely give my thoughts on why I vote what I do when the time comes.

 

[Ransei]

Lando-T is an unusual Pokémon to suspect. I'll have to think about this one.

Edit: s/o to In The Hills for team! I stole it from the Post WCOOM thread but I renamed the Pokémon!

Paste: https://pokepast.es/f1ffe0a24c80f628

 

[Lupin.D]

I'll come back for a verdict soon.

 

[astralydia]

As far as I see Landorus, its main issue in the metagame is not its raw breaking power, nor the fact that it can guarantee Stealth Rock - it is the combination of bulk and guaranteed Stealth Rock that allows Landorus-Therian to build some tight offensive cores due to its excellent role compression. This however; to me at least, is not the problem with Landorus itself, it is rather the problem with other wallbreakers in the metagame, specifically to highlight the most troublesome in Kartana. What Landorus-Therian can do for Kartana is the most efficient way of doing such a job of wearing down an opponent, however, many other Pokemon are capable of forcing damage on their checks just as well as Landorus. For example - Lucarionite Tapu Lele can dump a ton of damage on Magearna so that Pinsirite Magearna can sweep, or vice versa. Lunala is capable of forcing damage on resistances like Mandibuzz and pivot Magearna giving much more momentum to capable breakers like Kartana and Darkrai. There are very few Pokemon that are immune to this sort of pressure; and whilst Lando can trade blows back quite well, it is not one of these Pokemon that can just continually switch in unimpeded. And then again, once a Landorus is gone, the team is opened up for something like Altarianite Zygarde to clean up, because the team structures that use Landorus are mainly there to use it as both a breaker and a pivot, not one or the other. Landorus isn't capable of two roles at once.

Thus, I must incline that I vote Do Not Ban, as Landorus' breaking power is severely hampered by its sacrifice and common revenge killers and non-Defoggers can check it quite happily otherwise.

And I think you may know my opinions on what I think is the current teambuilding issue as of now: Kartana. Not only is it capable of abusing Landorus' support, but any other decent Stealth Rock user will make most teams drop to two or three switchins. It is also fairly versatile and easily capable of luring its more common checks on balance with -ate sets - all of this without the support of Landorus to help. Removing Landorus would just make checking this mon worse.

 

[Stall is coming]

 

[Chloe]

wouldve been a much better record but i got cocky towards the end and queued up 3 games at once.

probably voting ban idk

 

[Championleplusnul]

I think I voting no ban because, the prob of Landorus-T is **Explosion**. My question is, why ban Landorus-T and not Explosion? I think ban Explosion is a better idea. I think we do the same error with the Pidgeotite; ban Darkrai , Shaymin-Sky and Deoxys-Speed and not the Pidgeotite

 

[The Consort]

I think I voting no ban because, the prob of Landorus-T is **Explosion**. My question is, why ban Landorus-T and not Explosion? I think ban Explosion is a better idea. I think we do the same error with the Pidgeotite; ban Darkrai , Shaymin-Sky and Deoxys-Speed and not the Pidgeotite

We determined that Pidgeotite was the problem because it would break many of the Pokemon that could use it. If you think that Explosion is the problem because it breaks the Pokemon that use it, you are thinking like Pidgeotite ban by banning the thing that they have in common rather than the individual Pokemon themselves.