Serious 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

[MikeDawg]

MikeDawg. Dog. My boy. You cannot be a progressive and be a former prosecutor who put people in prison for weed and bragged about being harsher on crime than was necessary.

Ok let me rephrase: "that's why they're voting for either a different progressive or the conservative cop lady who supports M4A, the GND, minimum wage increase, reparations, criminal justice reform, gun control, va reform, a 2-state solution, corporate welfare cuts, universal teacher pay raises, debt free college, wall street subpeona reform, dodd-frank, legal weed, and job training programs, and who takes no corporate PAC money rn and took less than half as much money from banks compared to Warren during her Senate run."

Better?

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

She is only supporting those because she is forced to do so by the electorate and not because she actually wants them. They dont come from a place of inner conviction, but from a place of purely wanting to maximize her electability. She will probably renege or half ass most of that stuff if she gets elected.

 

[MikeDawg]

She is only supporting those because she is forced to do so by the electorate and not because she actually wants them. They dont come from a place of inner conviction, but from a place of purely wanting to maximize her electability. She will probably renege or half ass most of that stuff if she gets elected.

I appreciate the concern trolling, but considering her record as both a prosecutor and a Senator, I'mma have to take her word and the word of people like Barbara Lee over yours.

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

Im not even trolling you just cant argue with me so you just say im trolling lmao. You know Im right. Especially when you dropped the line "WELL ill trust my good personal friend and politican - and politicans never lie - Barbara Lee".

 

[MikeDawg]

Im not even trolling you just cant argue with me so you just say im trolling lmao. You know Im right. Especially when you dropped the line "WELL ill trust my good personal friend and politican - and politicans never lie - Barbara Lee".

How am I supposed to respond to an unsubstantial conspiracy? "I think she's lying just cuz lol Also fuck Barbara Lee my opinion matters more!" isn't an argument. You aren't nearly as important as you seem to think you are.

Your "she's only doing it because she has to" doesn't even make sense, became a lot those ideas aren't even popular. Eliminating private insurance polls incredibly low, as does reparations and investigating the wage gap. There's nothing in her history that contradicts any of her policies, so again your conspiracy is completely unsubstantiated.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Most people think he attacked Warren with that tweet. There's a dozen articles about it. Idk why you think I just made it up. lol

Why would I think you made this up? I'm aware there are articles about this. Articles saying something does not make it absolutely true. Like I said, there's no proof that he was attacking warren. It's subjective if he was at all. He even says the next day that it WASN'T an attack on Warren, but you just parrot that as "damage control". What exactly is needed for you to change your mind on this? Or do you just see any article that's anti-bernie and immediately think it must be the truth. Do you have a survey of "most people" thinking this was a campaign attack? Oh yeah, and if you think that Bernie is lying for public image, you might want to try extending that same philosophy to uh, every candidate you're pumping itt.

If you think that Harris is somehow more progressive than Sanders, you're just insane.

Idk what this means.

Crazy how the supporters of the 2 most progressive of that bunch who are also women are the ones who most want him to leave. Take that as you will.

As you clearly noted, they want Sanders to drop out at much higher rates than Biden's and Buttigieg's supporters. Keep up.

Are u trying to loop this into your "bernie is a misogynist" thing?

If that's what came to your head, then sure. I just pointed out the trend.

Come the fuck on lol, you've been literally typing for the past two pages that bernie is a sexist, bernie has a troublesome history of misogyny. Don't give me the garbage of 'oooh, YOU'RE the one that thinks bernie is sexist, not me, I haven't been saying this, no no, haven't been planting that idea with my posts, no way'. Harris and Warren supporters (of which, you are one) want sanders to drop out, for what reason? Bernie's sexist remarks? Literally any criticism that can be leveled at bernie can be equally put on Warren and Harris (controversial remarks from years ago!) Except you somehow missed when I drew giant red arrows everywhere that

Also, tons of people are spiteful of Bernie's role in getting Trump elected in 2016 by staying in well past his time and using those few months to attack Hillary. Good guess!

these people, aka you, have transplanted themselves onto Harris, a DNC figurehead who has co-opted a 'progressive good!' stance in the past two years.

Idk why you're bringing up election polls

What? You are the one bringing up polls, I am referring to your own posts about these polls, where you say "bernie's campaign is crashing". I gotta spell this out again for you but I'm fucking calling you out. Your post that I respond to where you're "switching gears" out of your own argument to talk about how confused you are about Harris's poll numbers. I'm telling you that I think that people don't want to vote for Harris because they don't like her, lol. Where all you are doing is repeating what the poll numbers are

What's the "gotcha!" moment you're looking for here? Cuz your point seems really unambitious tbh. "Hah! A bunch of supporters for female candidates hate Bernie, but only a few Bernie supporters hate Elizabeth Warren!" leaves me pretty underwhelmed.

What does "unambitious" even mean? I gave you two pictures. The first was supporters of the big 5 that want Bernie to drop out, the second is supporters of the big 5 that want Warren to drop out. Harris and Warren supporters (i.e. you) want Bernie to drop out, for some reason. Of people that want Warren to drop out, Sanders supporters want her to drop out the least, and by a very appreciable margin. Maybe I'd believe your story that Harris and Warren supporters are somehow united in keeping Bernie out if Harris's own supporters didn't want Warren to depart the race at such a high rate, double that of Sanders supporters.

Also notable is that Harris supporters want Biden to drop out the least of the big 5. Almost as if Harris supporters aren't progressives but instead DNC supporters.

That's my 'analysis' of these polls, I want to hear yours, one that isn't "Bernie's numbers are down this week so he's committing campaign suicide"

 

[MikeDawg]

Why would I think you made this up? I'm aware there are articles about this. Articles saying something does not make it absolutely true. Like I said, there's no proof that he was attacking warren. It's subjective if he was at all. He even says the next day that it WASN'T an attack on Warren, but you just parrot that as "damage control". What exactly is needed for you to change your mind on this? Or do you just see any article that's anti-bernie and immediately think it must be the truth. Do you have a survey of "most people" thinking this was a campaign attack? Oh yeah, and if you think that Bernie is lying for public image, you might want to try extending that same philosophy to uh, every candidate you're pumping itt.

Yet you think your opinion on this subjective matter is the inarguably correct take, so lol

If you think that Harris is somehow more progressive than Sanders, you're just insane.

That has nothing to do with the discussion considering you're responding to me saying she's more progressive than Pete and Biden , but sure.

Come the fuck on lol, you've been literally typing for the past two pages that bernie is a sexist, bernie has a troublesome history of misogyny. Don't give me the garbage of 'oooh, YOU'RE the one that thinks bernie is sexist, not me,

I do indeed think Bernie has a history of misogyny.

Literally any criticism that can be leveled at bernie can be equally put on Warren and Harris

Ok, then why are u getting so worked up that I criticized Bernie? "They did it too!" isn't a defense. If you want to criticize Warren and Harris, go ahead lol. Nobody's stopping you

Except you somehow missed

Lol this again

Transplanted themselves onto Harris

And Warren. Besides, Harris is polling at 8%. 25% of that is only 2%.

35% of voters think Bernie should drop out. 2% is way smaller than 35%, so you gotta do some serious Bernie math to think they make up a significant part of the anti-Bernie crowd.

I am referring to your own posts about these polls, where you say "bernie's campaign is crashing"

It is. Falling 10 points in 2 months is crashing. Warren has gone up 9, and Biden has gone up 3. It's very simple math.

. I gotta spell this out again for you but I'm fucking calling you out.

You aren't doing a very good job

Your post that I respond to where you're "switching gears" out of your own argument to talk about how confused you are about Harris's poll numbers.

If I switched gears, why are you talking about the misogynistic Bernie thing still?

I'm telling you that I think that people don't want to vote for Harris because they don't like her, lol.

But, she's 2nd place in "who are you excited for?" and 2nd to last in "who do you really hate." Sounds like people like her.

Where all you are doing is repeating what the poll numbers are

So you think your opinion trumps actual data? You need a reality check my dude. lol

What does "unambitious" even mean?

Consult a dictionary

I gave you two pictures. The first was supporters of the big 5 that want Bernie to drop out, the second is supporters of the big 5 that want Warren to drop out. Harris and Warren supporters (i.e. you) want Bernie to drop out, for some reason. Of people that want Warren to drop out, Sanders supporters want her to drop out the least, and by a very appreciable margin. Maybe I'd believe your story that Harris and Warren supporters are somehow united in keeping Bernie out if Harris's own supporters didn't want Warren to depart the race at such a high rate, double that of Sanders supporters.

Has nothing to do with your point being unambitious. Gotta look up that word first.

Also notable is that Harris supporters want Biden to drop out the least of the big 5. Almost as if Harris supporters aren't progressives but instead DNC supporters.

Wow, you're really obsessing over poll numbers!

That's my 'analysis' of these polls, I want to hear yours, one that isn't "Bernie's numbers are down this week so he's committing campaign suicide"

um, you just spent hours responding to my analysis lol. And the Kamala comment you responded to had nothing to do with Bernie.

Bernie's numbers are down this YEAR, not this week. It sounds like you're just really upset that daddy Bernie is losing to a more qualified and progressive woman. We can't always get what we want. :'(

 

[dice]

i don't think i've seen two people have such a sustained argument, with both of them being so off-base.

 

[orch]

i don't think i've seen two people have such a sustained argument, with both of them being so off-base.

give us your amazing and brilliant take to elevate this argument then.

 

[Myzozoa]

Im convinced. Im gonna vote Biden in the primaries.

but will you step up and get a landline so you can speak up for biden in a place where it actually counts, such as the polls?

 

[MikeDawg]

Let's all just agree that Liz and Kamala supporters want Bernie to drop out equally, so by GatoDelFuego's logic, both Liz and Kamala are establishment shills.

Which brings us back to the original point that Bernie called Warren an establishment shill. Yay.

 

[Asek]

hillary isnt paying u to mak these posts anymore bro u can stop

 

[MikeDawg]

hillary isnt paying u to mak these posts anymore bro u can stop

the 4 people who liked this comment are the exact 4 people I would expect to like this comment

 

[MikeDawg]

Wow she did so well I'm proud. <3

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Uh, no? Let's go back to the beginning:

But I'm still confused... what are you trying to prove? That Bernie wasn't attacking Warren in that tweet?

My opinion and your opinion are different. But that doesn't change the fact that there is no proof that Sanders attacked Warren, because there is no proof. Hence, why I said:

Why would you think this is proof that bernie WASN'T attacking warren, when there is no proof by anyone of any kind that he WAS.

And you can get some stats for your claim that

Most people think he attacked Warren with that tweet. There's a dozen articles about it.

Cause "a lot of articles" is not "most people"

I do indeed think Bernie has a history of misogyny.

Good for you. Maybe you can stop being coy with your whole

If that's what came to your head, then sure. I just pointed out the trend.

Ok, then why are u getting so worked up that I criticized Bernie? "They did it too!" isn't a defense. If you want to criticize Warren and Harris, go ahead lol. Nobody's stopping you

I'm "so worked up" because you slink into this thread at every opportunity to post anti-bernie stories from decades ago, while simultaneously stanning Harris and Warren. "they did it too" is not a defense of sanders, it's a callout on you for bringing it up without applying the same standards to your own choice of candidate.

And Warren. Besides, Harris is polling at 8%. 25% of that is only 2%.

35% of voters think Bernie should drop out. 2% is way smaller than 35%, so you gotta do some serious Bernie math to think they make up a significant part of the anti-Bernie crowd.

What?

For a start, I don't know where you pulled 25% from, since about 45% of harris supporters want bernie to drop out. Call me out for "bernie math" some more. A significant bunch of the "anti bernie crowd" is not coming from harris, but a significant portion of Harris IS the anti-bernie crowd.

Obviously the biggest chunk of people that think bernie should drop will come from biden, since biden's supporters dwarf everyone. I just find it pretty telling that of Harris supporters, such a high rate want bernie to drop. You can say "oh and warren supporters too", but that's a different scenario. Sanders and Warren are both grassroots campaigns that have double the rate of "small donations" that harris does (from https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/us/politics/campaign-finance-2020-fundraising.html). Warren vs Bernie is its own battle among progressives that actually have history. For example...https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41850798 actually calling out the DNC, lol. Contrast Warren's rejection of big donators (in march!) with Harris's flip-flop (in april!). Harris is the establishment, same as Biden. I can draw some more red arrows pointing to Biden if you want.

If I switched gears, why are you talking about the misogynistic Bernie thing still?

What? It's possible to respond to two different things in a post, you know

But, she's 2nd place in "who are you excited for?" and 2nd to last in "who do you really hate." Sounds like people like her.

I don't see how you can think that she is going to be building momentum from here on out, because since her announcement her support has gone nowhere but down. People being excited doesn't seem to be translating into support. In fact, dropping in half.

So you think your opinion trumps actual data?

No....and neither does yours. The "hard data" has Harris at sub 10% support for the past few months. My interpretation of that (aka my opinion) is that people don't like her, and if they did like her and want to vote for her she'd get higher % supporters. Your opinion is that she will grow as more people learn about her, which is the opposite of what actually happened.

Has nothing to do with your point being unambitious. Gotta look up that word first.

Dude, what? You think me saying "what does unambitious even mean" is me not knowing the definition of a word? Cause you said

What's the "gotcha!" moment you're looking for here? Cuz your point seems really unambitious tbh. "Hah! A bunch of supporters for female candidates hate Bernie, but only a few Bernie supporters hate Elizabeth Warren!" leaves me pretty underwhelmed.

What kind of callout is that? Oh, your argument is unambitious. Didn't realize we needed to meet an ambition threshold to post. Good for you that you're underwhelmed, but that is my point. A bunch of establishment shills (such as yourself, not candidates) want bernie to exit the race, while bernie supporters will be perfectly happy with either Bernie or Warren going forward.

Wow, you're really obsessing over poll numbers!

Until this post where I bring in my own links, I've been 'obsessing' over your poll numbers, that you linked, when you decided to switch topics away from an incomplete discussion on bernie's segregation supporting or misogyny, that I have dragged out for another page. I'm calling you out for switching topics in that post to polls and not offering a single opinion of your own. In that post you parrot over and over how excited people are and what harris's name recognition is, etc. Why do you think that her numbers are low? I've given you my take over the last several posts (because people realize she's the corporate wing of the DNC). What's yours? Hence why I asked

That's my 'analysis' of these polls, I want to hear yours, one that isn't "Bernie's numbers are down this week so he's committing campaign suicide"

and you respond with

um, you just spent hours responding to my analysis lol. And the Kamala comment you responded to had nothing to do with Bernie.

Bernie's numbers are down this YEAR, not this week. It sounds like you're just really upset that daddy Bernie is losing to a more qualified and progressive woman. We can't always get what we want. :'(

1) do you think I'm sitting in front of my computer 24/7 to respond as fast as possible when you make a post 2) No, I'm not upset that Daddy Bernie is losing to a "more qualified and progresive woman" (who gives out qualifications? and are you still talking about harris, cause I hope you aren't calling harris more progressive than sanders), and...Sanders is not losing to any woman, he's ahead of both of them, lol. Go back and find my posts where I stan daddy bernie, cause I haven't posted in this thread for a full month until respondig to you two days go. I'm upset that you constantly come into this thread to post anti-bernie news without applying the same standards to your top picks (Harris, Biden, Warren in that order). If you take nothing else away from this post, it's stop posting 1974 newspapers itt to spread the truth that "daddy bernie" is actually a secret racist.

 

[QuickBH]

I'm basically deadset on voting for Tulsi Gabbard in the primaries, I could care less about anyone else.

 

[MikeDawg]

My opinion and your opinion are different, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no proof that Sanders attacked Warren, because there is no proof.

Tweet: "Warren emerges as potential compromise nominee"

Bernie's Response: "The cat is out of the bag. The corporate wing of the Democratic Party is publicly ‘anybody but Bernie.’ They know our progressive agenda of Medicare for All, breaking up big banks, taking on drug companies and raising wages is the real threat to the billionaire class."

I'm upset that you constantly come into this thread to post anti-bernie news

lol dude i'm pretty sure that's the first time i'd posted about bernie in a month. i'm sorry that my criticism of daddy bernie upset you so much though. also thank u for spending so much time to write this essay, but tbh i only read the first and last paragraphs.

 

[atomicllamas]

Tweet: "Warren emerges as potential compromise nominee"

Bernie's Response: "The cat is out of the bag. The corporate wing of the Democratic Party is publicly ‘anybody but Bernie.’ They know our progressive agenda of Medicare for All, breaking up big banks, taking on drug companies and raising wages is the real threat to the billionaire class."




lol dude i'm pretty sure that's the first time i'd posted about bernie in a month. i'm sorry that my criticism of daddy bernie upset you so much though. also thank u for spending so much time to write this essay, but tbh i only read the first and last paragraphs.

This is like the 3rd time in a row you’ve taken a partial snippet of what someone has said and responded while completely ignoring the actual context. It doesn’t make you look smart, it makes you an idiot.

 

[MikeDawg]

lol Bernie's black outreach is legendary

Also hickenlooper looks like a hydra villain

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

Tomorrow is the big day, boys. 10 man debate with huge names in politics like John Hickenlooper, Rinse Masterson, Bill DeBeter, and Corey Booker and Token Groinbroad.

 

[MikeDawg]

https://www.thirdway.org/memo/why-free-college-could-increase-inequality

Say what you will about Third Way, but this is a really solid article articulating what a ton of (actual) progressives are thinking. Free college does nothing for the impoverished people who are graduating from shitty high schools reading at a 7th grade level, and it does nothing for the families who need their kids to start working at 16 instead of moving away (to a place that they still probably can't afford, even if tuition is waved), and it certainly does nothing for the poor people who already have their tuition covered by currently existing federal/state grants. The only people who prioritize "free college" are the ones who don't actually give a shit. It's a great soundbite for pandering purposes, though. Focus on lower education reform.

Don't get me started on Bernie's bullshit student loan forgiveness plan. The poorest 25% of Americans hold only 1/10 of student loan debt, and the wealthiest 25% hold a significant plurality. Student loan debt is heavily concentrated among the well-off. Uniform debt forgiveness isn't necessarily a "bad" idea, but it's certainly not progressive. It disproportionately benefits the wealthy, which would only serve to INCREASE wealth inequality. If your goal is to help the poor, then there are far better ways to spend $2,200,000,000,000, such as K-12 programs and healthcare reform.

He's not trying to help shit with this incredibly lazy plan, he just wants to buy votes. Literally. This is another area where you can compare Bernie/Warren's plans and see that Warren is far more competent and progressive.

 

[Calucha]

You mean the wall street funded/created wing of the corporate democrats (Third Way) is telling us that free college and tuition forgiveness funded by taxing wall street is a bad idea? shocker lmao

As someone who going into teaching I one hundred percent agree that lower education should be focused on more. That being said its absolutely possible to focus on both, you know like Bernie has? Bernie has a plan for lower education reform. If he didn't Id agree with your saying that they dont give a shit and just wanted a sound bite.

Lastly do you honestly believe that the tuition forgiveness will Increase inequality? look im not reading that article by third way since i dont trust them, so i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say those stats are 100% true. Even then that still decreases inequality no matter which way you look at it. The well off barely care about that dude. There not like the working class where that debt is literally like a shackle preventing or holding them back from doing stuff like buying houses, investing, having kids and so forth. If your in the well off group, you'll probably shrug it off when your student debt gets forgiven cause it never bothered or affected you in any big way lol, your wealthy for gods sake, the price of your college tuition is nothing to you. You don't gain all that much from having it forgiven. For a working class person however, this changes your entire life. It absolutely helps inequality. It barely helps the rich since they were going to college regardless, and massively helps the working class by also giving them a path to a college future without crushing debt, it props them up.

I wont go into the bernie vs warren thing because im happy with either of them getting the nomination. So cheers to that!

 

[MikeDawg]

You mean the wall street funded/created wing of the corporate democrats (Third Way) is telling us that free college and tuition forgiveness funded by taxing wall street is a bad idea? shocker lmao

As someone who going into teaching I one hundred percent agree that lower education should be focused on more. That being said its absolutely possible to focus on both, you know like Bernie has? Bernie has a plan for lower education reform. If he didn't Id agree with your saying that they dont give a shit and just wanted a sound bite.

Lastly do you honestly believe that the tuition forgiveness will Increase inequality? look im not reading that article by third way since i dont trust them, so i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say those stats are 100% true. Even then that still decreases inequality no matter which way you look at it. The well off barely care about that dude. There not like the working class where that debt is literally like a shackle preventing or holding them back from doing stuff like buying houses, investing, having kids and so forth. If your in the well off group, you'll probably shrug it off when your student debt gets forgiven cause it never bothered or affected you in any big way lol, your wealthy for gods sake, the price of your college tuition is nothing to you. You don't gain all that much from having it forgiven. For a working class person however, this changes your entire life. It absolutely helps inequality. It barely helps the rich since they were going to college regardless, and massively helps the working class by also giving them a path to a college future without crushing debt, it props them up.

I wont go into the bernie vs warren thing because im happy with either of them getting the nomination. So cheers to that!

Are you gonna actually address the criticisms of free college/loan forgiveness? Because you literally said "I'm not reading that article" then also ignored everything I said and started talking about your feelings. lol You're legit rejecting data and staying willfully ignorant then acting like it's something to be proud of. Idgi

And that "wall street tax" was already attempted in Sweden, and it failed MISERABLY. It's really hard to see a single redeeming point in this plan.

And @ your point that it's possible to focus on both... there's a limited amount of money, and a very limited amount of political capital. You think we can reform K-12, pass major environmental reform, get free college, spend 2 trillion on universal debt forgiveness, get Medicare for all, and feed the homeless? Even if Dems miraculously take the Senate, we'd be hard pressed to get 1/3 of that. In real life, there are limited resources, and you DO need to prioritize. Paying off student loans for the top 50% shouldn't be on the shortlist for ANY progressive. At least Warren's plan is more nuanced.

I hope Booker does well today. He really is a great guy. Rhodes Scholar, purposely lived in a poorer area to stay connected with constituents, saved a woman from a burning building, etc. Plus, we can maybe get Key & Peele guy to play him on SNL if he sticks around long enough!

 

[Calucha]

I mean i did address the criticism you put forth lol I didnt read the article yeah but that did address what you said. Like i legit took the data you gave and used it lol as for my feelings idk where i did that? i legit was was just using some basic reasoning? sorry if you took it some other way lol

If that doesnt count idk what to tell you man

Cory is a Big Pharma sleaze bag so ill pass on him, With Warren on the debate stage this could def be his time to shine though

 

[MikeDawg]

I mean i did address the criticism you put forth lol I didnt read the article yeah but that did address what you said. Like i legit took the data you gave and used it lol as for my feelings idk where i did that? i legit was was just using some basic reasoning? sorry if you took it some other way lol

Um you said "I believe those stats saying it wouldnt help poor people are 100% true" then blatantly ignored them and said it would help poor people more anyway. The poorest 25% of people have only 12% of the loans. You're telling me that erasing everyone's loans wouldn't increase the gap between them and everyone else? You're giving everyone else 10 times as much money as you're giving the poorest. Heck, the top 10% wealthiest alone are getting almost as much money from such a plan as the bottom 25% poorest.


Those stats aren't from the article anyway, by the way. And the idea of not even looking at an article because you don't like the URL is so fucking stupid I can't even fathom. The bs is especially transparent considering you could easily Google for alternative sources instead but you can't be fucked. lol