Unpopular opinions

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
I loved Voltorb Flip ! I hope he will come back one day !
Considering VF got one legal issue already for an older Game Corner, I doubt GF is gonna risk with another Game Corner.

I hated VF because it was too much math, and I hated math. To be fair though, I pretty much hated every game corner because Good TMs ( Tbolt, Fthrower, IBeam) we’re locked behind it. Might be an unpopular opinion, but I was glad when they permanently discontinued it.
Well I liked doing the math (which is just "is voltorb + non-voltorb on a row more than 5?" (and if yes, then I need to look at it, taking into account the columns that collide with the row), which is probs where the popular and unpopular opinions clash
 
Not to disagree with the points you brought up, but I thought I'd give some reasoning for why I consider Sun and Moon absolute bottom-tier among the Pokémon games. In short, I find the presentation lacking, and what could have been really good games for reasons you stated, are marred by some highly questionable design choices. That's the gist of it, now let's dive into the details:

For a start, I think it's fitting to consider the beginning of the games. While a mandatory tutorial has been a staple of Pokémon games for ages, Sun/Moon takes the cake and runs with it. The amount of hand-holding in the early-game is excruciating. I haven't sat with a stopwatch to measure it, but it really takes a couple hours' worth of playtime before it feels like you can go explore anything. There are long, unskippable dialogues and cutscenes everywhere in the beginning of the game, which really hurts replayability. It takes forever to get to the point where you're left to your own devices. Until you battle Ilima for the first time, you're always told to follow a specific character to a specific location, following a specific route, where there will be more cutscenes. Only then does Route 2 open up and you're free to go to Verdant Cavern at your own pace. Of course, once you get there, there are more cutscenes. Granted, the story is better than what we've seen in Pokémon games so far, but it's presented in such a tedious way. Lots of mandatory dialogue, lots of cutscenes you can neither skip nor speed up.

And that really sets the tone for the entire game. It feels like the entire overworld gameplay of Sun/Moon consists of "go to the spot marked with a flag on the minimap, where there will be a cutscene and maybe a battle". There are no traditional dungeons to explore or overworld puzzles to figure out, it's always "Go to flag, then cutscene". It doesn't feel like you're exploring Alola, you're given a guided tour. And it's not like you can branch off the path much; if you even find a side area, it's usually blocked off with a very immersion-breaking fade-to-black roadblock. "Oh no, you didn't go to the flag, we will have to reset the area so you face the right direction. There, now go to the flag!"

I don't think the region itself is particularly engaging either. You're usually following roads with the sea on one side and cliffs on the other. There is one way forward, and one way back where you came. Branches in the path are either blocked off until later (That obnoxious Stoutland guy, Haina Desert, Route 11) or contain very small side areas (Seaward Cave, Ten Carat Hill). As mentioned before, the region hardly has dungeons to speak of. The trial sites are very small, the caves are linear, the forests all but absent, and even with two evil teams we still don't have a labyrinthine lair to explore. The four Tapus each have a temple, all of which contain one Strength Machamp Shove puzzle, that's it. All in all, the region feels small and cramped, not particularly helped by the fixed camera angles (which, to be fair, is probably a hardware restriction. Then again, Super Mario 64 DS had a free camera in a 3D environment, so eh).

And this is just the broad strokes, the setting and principal concept of the game. Other, minor design decisions really made me question the competence of the game director. For instance, greenlighting the Rotom Dex. Or the godawful Pokémon distribution, where the Rattata, Yungoos and Wingull families make up a combined total of 60 % of the wild Pokémon encounters in several routes all up to the postgame areas of Poni Island, while the new and interesting Pokémon are near impossible to find without a guide. Unless you knew beforehand where to find Bruxish, Mareanie or Dhelmise, you sure as heck weren't going to find one through normal play. And even when you know where to find them, it's still a repetitive, grinding slog to obtain them. Speaking of repetitive and grinding, somebody had the good idea to make key battles more challenging (a decision I wholeheartedly applaud), but many of those challenging battles are preceded by cutscenes you have to watch every time you attempt the battle again. The worst offenders are Kiawe's trial (requiring you to climb the volcano and do the same photo riddle every time) and Po Town Guzma (where you have to walk from the Route 16 Pokémon Center up to and through all of Po Town [including 12 fade-to-black loading "screens", I counted] plus a lengthy Guzma speech before every rematch). Those are legit difficult battles an inexperienced player might attempt half a dozen times or more, but every attempt has to include three minutes of unnecessary fluff before you can get to the battle itself.

PokéRide was a nice mechanic in theory, but its implementation was somewhat iffy. Consider for instance Machamp Shove, which I think is used a whooping total of five times throughout the entire game, four of which are in the Tapu temples and all of which only have to be done once. At that point, one might as well not make the puzzles dependent on Machamp and just ditch that Ride Pokémon altogether. Mudsdale Gallop is even worse. You use it to cross rocky fields, none of which are accessible until the moment you get Mudsdale. The fields and Mudsdale both have the sole purpose of justifying each other. There is no challenge in that mechanic, no skill, no element of chance, no lore, no "how do I get past this?" riddle. It's all just "remember to mount Mudsdale before walking here". Mudsdale is two button clicks away from the moment you see the first rocky field. Worst thing is, they put a roadblock right before that, so even if you sequence break you can't get to the obstacle and wonder how to get across it. I don't know what to call that, but it's certainly not competent design.


But I could go on and on about details (and I believe I already have), it's not the main point. All in all, what really killed the enjoyment of Sun/Moon for me was how it appeared to refuse to take after previous games. How so many of its aspects had been done better already, how many areas it failed to improve on, and previous successes it failed to embrace. It didn't have XY's or Platinum's fantastic Pokémon selection, the snappy early-game of RBY or GSC, the DexNav of ORAS, BW's great level of polish, the sprawling landscapes of Kalos, the wilderness of Sinnoh or any of the postgame facilities or daily battles/events of multiple earlier games. The popular Mega Evolution mechanic was all but ditched, there were no Secret Bases, Festival Plaza was a strange and barely coherent mess compared to the smooth and convenient PSS, there were no trainer rematches at all, and I could go on and on. It's not that these aspects in themselves make the games worse, it's how it all seems to convey a refusal to learn from past mistakes (or successes) and how progress is held back for the sake of doing things differently. In short, it reeks of poor direction.

In conclusion, Sun and Moon either felt rushed or stubbornly different for differences' sake. It had some great highlights, you mentioned some and there are others as well, but some really questionable lows too. And in many cases it felt obvious that these lows could have been done better, either by putting in a tad more work (the Pokémon distribution for instance - it would not have taken a day to tone down the rodents and seagulls and fill the routes with more interesting 'mons) or simply by doing what had already been done well before (anything on the bottom screen). I applaud the games for ditching the HMs, giving us more fleshed out characters, making pretty environments, and the battles are more interesting than ever, but there are certain aspects of Sun and Moon that aren't just bad, they are worse than what Game Freak had already presented in previous titles. The old adage about Game Freak - One step forward, a few stumbling steps to the side, one step back - is nowhere clearer than in the Gen VII titles.
How the heck can ANYONE hate gen 7? They weren't perfect perhaps, but putting them amongst the worst in the franchise is complete and utter horseshit. In fact, I firmly believe the opposite: Sun and Moon are tied with Black and White 2 for my favorite mainline Pokemon games, with the mediocre postgame being the only thing holding them back from being better, because aside from that, they did every other conceivable thing right:

Region: Holy crap Alola is an amazing region. It's a radically different direction the point where I've seen people compare it to spin-off regions like Orre, and in my opinion it completely paid off. Unlike XY, GF fully took advantage of the leap to 3D this time around to deliver to us one of the most fleshed-out, visually varied regions yet, teeming with beautiful, interesting locales and bits and pieces of world-building.

Main Story Gameplay: Not super difficult, but far from the breeze that was XY. Some battles were actually really freaking tough: I picked Litten, and I still ultimately had to bank on potion spam to take out Totem Lurantis! Oh yeah, the totem battles are awesome. That's one of the things I love about SM: It shakes up the formula in various semi-subtle ways while staying true to the core structure of a Pokemon game. Trials over Gyms, multiple evil teams, multiple potential Champion fights, the E4 being composed of previously introduced characters to make the fights with them more impactful, probably other things I'm forgetting about.

The Story Itself: Considering how much of an Alola fanboy I am, it may come as a surprise that the story didn't capture me the same way it did others. That said, I can understand why some people love it so much, and I enjoyed some parts as well, more specifically Gladion, who fulfills the need for an asshole-ish rival people have been asking for while also having some great character development. Also his theme is likely a partial remix of a Pokemon Mystery Dungeon track, and any references to PMD make me a happi boye

Quality of Life Changes: Regardless of how you feel about recent games, you should at least be able to give SM credit for being the games that finally put HMs out of their misery in favor of the infinitely more convenient Pokeride system and derivatives in later games. Also Poke Pelago is great for making EV training less of a time waster, and I hope it returns in some form in SWSH.

New Pokemon: Look, you can think whatever you want about Sun and Moon. You can think I'm looking back on it too fondly, that none of the pros I listed make up for the cons assuming they are even valid at all, and that's fine. But I will forever stand by the belief that Alola is home to the best new Pokemon in any game period. I could make an entire post gushing about how much I love the Alola dex and everything it gave us, but the basic gist is this. XY saw the roots of a new trend for modern Pokemon games: A dramatically smaller list of new Pokemon compared to previous titles, opting for quality over quantity. While XY gave birth to this interesting idea, Sun and Moon took this concept to new heights. Every Pokemon in Alola does something brand new, something fresh and totally different from what came before, no matter how small. We've had Water/Psychic types in the past, but not a physical attacking one like Bruxish. We've had Regenerator Water types before, but not one with Poison immunity and hazard setting potential like Toxapex. Decidueye and Dhelmise are both physical attacking Grass/Ghost types, but they take that basic skeleton of a role and approach it from different angles, with neither truly outclassing the other in that function. Some do this better than others, but even the worst Alola mons have something to their name to where they can firmly say "nobody else can do what I do". Of course, the designs themselves are absolutely stellar, whether it be the noble, regal warrior Kommo-o, the unique blend of animal and profession the Starters take on, the totally alien and experimental Ultra Beasts and of course my beautiful baby boy Drampa, the perfect blend of cute and cool that the rest of the dex aspires to be. Oh, and by the way, Regional Variants are the best idea Game Freak has ever had, basically accomplishing what Mega Evolution tried to do on a smaller scale while feeling 100% natural and continuing to provide some sorely-needed revitalizations to old favorites, whether it be making Exeggutor an entertainingly silly meme icon or transforming Muk into a UU-level competitive threat. If these things don't return with new additions in Sword and Shield, I will honestly be pissed. I wouldn't even care much if it was Gen 1 only again, just please don't abandon this gold mine of potential Game Freak!

Wew, that was a long diatribe. Be warned though: you might see an even more nuclear take from me very soon on this thread, but right now it's late.
I would also like to add something on to this -- the SOS mechanic for boss battles? A brilliant inclusion that's one of a few elements that made said boss battles actually difficult and a clear step-up from previous efforts (it certainly makes things like Kyurem-W/B even more comical in retrospect).

... but then someone had the idea to apply it to every wild battle outside of totem Pokémon, and it is extremely excruciating. Every time I try to catch a new team member, or not even that; just try to catch something new for my Pokédex, I'll inevitably get locked into a cycle of a Pokémon called over and over again which makes throwing the goddamn Poké Ball impossible. I can understand what they were going for and it's certainly good for aftergame chaining, but surely there was a better implementation of it? Maybe it could have been locked to Adrenaline Orbs only, or at the least you could have made it a lot less likely to happen until you use an orb? As-is it's just an annoyance that became a further pointless time-waster on top of the game's already large amount of cutscenes.

And I'm actually saying this as someone who generally enjoys Sun and Moon and its story, but what you brought up about the cutscenes is 100% true. I recall watching an LGPE speedrun once where they were discuss this, and apparently it was calculated that if all the cutscenes in the game were taken out; the average S/M speedrun would be cut in half. Now obviously that's a speedrun and not a normal playthrough, but I found the implications illuminating. The aforementioned LGPE seems to have learned from this and actually added in a cutscene skip! ... but the game only has, like, 4 cutscenes; all of which are very short and actually nice to watch. I really do wonder sometimes how much of a better game S/M would be if encounter tables were fixed and the cutscenes were skippable. I feel it'd do wonders.
I do agree that Sun and Moon had a much better art direction than XY, particularly the models being much more polished and refined compared to XY. I think they look better than SwSh currently. I also agree that Totem Lurantis and lot of the Totem fights in general had some strategy behind it- Like the Salazzle's Venom's Drench into Toxic plus corrosion made it quite deadly. The totem Lurantis fight had me reset a few times as well.

My pet peeve with the Pokemon of Alola is that all seem to be designed around a gimmick, particularly an ability. While some of them are good ( Mimikyu, Tsareena ), the others are flat bad, particularly Merciless and Corrosion. Which is a shame since there a lot of Pokemon that can benefit from these abilities. Fun Fact: Slush Rush is the only ability introduced in Gen 6 that wasn't a Signature Ability.

On the topic of lack of exploration in SM, you forgot to mention the biggest offender: Ultra Space. We literally get to go to an Alternate Universe, and all we get in godawful mini game that was locked to motion controls initially with the only way to switch is on a separate island with no hint to go there. And every place in Ultra Space is a corridor. We're in an Alternate Universe, and that's the best they can give? Not even the highly promoted Ultra Megalopolis was saved from the corridor treatment. But the only reason we go to Ultra Space is to catch Legendary Pokemon , which is one of the worst tasks ever. It means playing that godawful minigame and hoping there's a legendary Pokemon at the end. Emphasis on hoping. I eventually got so tired of playing that minigame that I didn't even bother catching the remaining Legendaries in Ultra Moon.

As with the SOS chaining, I agree with Kurona on what's mentioned above, but I really don't like how HAs were distributed. It meant constantly chaining the same Pokemon for a really long time, and I often had to bring a Skill Swap Pokemon to find that Hidden Ability. I really dislike HAs in general now. In BW the whole point of HA was to promote the Dream World, but when that shut down the point for HAs was lost. But I guess for the sake of consistency, most Pokemon have them, even if it means hiding behind a layer of tedium. Not to mention which Pokemon get them is bizzare. The majority of Pokemon with levitate don't get them, which I get because they want to justify the floating of it, yet there Pokemon Beedrill and Nihilego who are floating, but don't get levitate. I honestly just wish for HAs to become regular abilities since the main point is gone and it just adds another not required layer.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Here's something else as I have seen it trashtalked a lot in the past:

I think Voltorb's Flip is actually a decent game, if you were to take away huge part of the luck aspect.

Most people dislike VF simply cause level 5 onwards you face a continue-or-lose coinflip every 3 moves, which does become annoying, especially if you are grinding for the elemental TMs (which are also ridiculously high for a game where a huge fortune is obtained on sheer luck). However, the earlier levels are interesting to solve, as the luck there isn't that huge; I like the logic that you need to use in order to win the level. Only downside is that they don't give out enough coins and the ones that do face the coinflip issue I mentioned. If the luck aspect was to be reworked as to not be so awful to deal with, then Voltorb's Flip would be a great minigame in Pokemon, something I generally do not see at all (the only minigame that I constitute good to some extent that I can think of at the moment is Mantine Surf, as it does accelerate BP grinding, while also providing a more skill-based gameplay).
I thought people didn't like Voltorb Flip because you had to play it to get coins without the option of buying them. How many people actually gambled to get the TMs before then when you could just throw your wallet at the problem?
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
I thought people didn't like Voltorb Flip because you had to play it to get coins without the option of buying them. How many people actually gambled to get the TMs before then when you could just throw your wallet at the problem?
I think if VF wasn't that heaily luck-based, people wouldn't be having that many issues with it, as getting more coins would become significally easier and thus not a huge problem. So the coinflips fundamentally cause the dislike for the game as a whole.
 

Vinc2612

The V stands for VGC
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Here's something else as I have seen it trashtalked a lot in the past:

I think Voltorb's Flip is actually a decent game, if you were to take away huge part of the luck aspect.

Most people dislike VF simply cause level 5 onwards you face a continue-or-lose coinflip every 3 moves, which does become annoying, especially if you are grinding for the elemental TMs (which are also ridiculously high for a game where a huge fortune is obtained on sheer luck). However, the earlier levels are interesting to solve, as the luck there isn't that huge; I like the logic that you need to use in order to win the level. Only downside is that they don't give out enough coins and the ones that do face the coinflip issue I mentioned. If the luck aspect was to be reworked as to not be so awful to deal with, then Voltorb's Flip would be a great minigame in Pokemon, something I generally do not see at all (the only minigame that I constitute good to some extent that I can think of at the moment is Mantine Surf, as it does accelerate BP grinding, while also providing a more skill-based gameplay).
So it is not a decent game.

As Karxrida mentionned, it would have been fine if you could just buy coins. As you mentionned, it would have been fine if it wasn't about sheer luck.

You can spend your time to do the maths, there will still be several times where you just click and hope for the best. I developped a software to calculate each odd, making decisions easier in early game, but it still ends with a square of 2 voltorbs 2 two. Or two squares. And a broken screen.
 

Apagogie

Zee you later
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
About the Sun & Moon topic, I totally agree with Codraroll who expressed my feelings better than I could have done myself. Pokémon is a game of exploration, you don't play at Pokémon for the history or whatever else. Even the new Pokemons are not the main goal of a new game, it's a just secondary purpose which helps to increase the feeling of exploration.

Sun&Moon is the most dirigiste game I have ever played for an "exploration" game. I felt to play at a point and click but without the puzzles, the interesting conversations and the good history behind. The game is just unplayable, it's the only game I have never started again when I finished the first time the adventure.

To do a comparaison, let's take Zelda Breath of the Wild. Zelda is like Pokemon, a game of adventure and exploration. In Botw, they didn't focus about the history (which is the most simple in the world), they didn't focus on the bosses (which are by the way the worst one in the zelda history) but they focused on the exploration. And it worked. Botw is a piece of art because it fills the reason why people buy the game. Due to that, we forgive the lack of inspiration about the history and other little flaws because we simply don't care and like the game how it is.

The first island is basically to click the button A to read the uninteresting conversations and the three other islands is to obey to rotom dex and if you don't, we stop you to anywhere. The irony goes until the ending where you have a cutscene of... 15 minutes. Create a game as dirigiste as it becomes unplayable makes already Sun & Moon the worst official Pokémon game ever created. However, I will still talk about some "good" points of S&M in arguing how they don't make the game better.

The region in itself is okay with some cool places such as Paniola Town, Konikoni city or the Seafolk Village. However, big cities and nature area are meh at best. Nothing is really beautiful in the first island except maybe the Iki Town but it's again a small village. The big nature places in the second island are just a failure. There is no exploration, neither for the jungle nor for the lake. Their only goal is to let the totem battle taking place. I don't know why but in this game, Pokémon Compagny has failed every big city. They are just uninteresting and unnecessary for the game, nothing catches our intention (contrary to Castelia city or Lumiose city where you had a lot stuff to do or people to talk with). The third island starts with a city done by fan-service and as uninteresting as other big cities. Konikoni is a success because you have the atmosphere of the streets with shops in Japan. This city just looks to be an ugly area for tourism. Po Town and Tapu village are both destroyed places and if I know some people like that, it's personally not my cup of tea. The fourth island is probably the best island but unfortunately it's cut between before and after the league which means the exploration too. It became a frustrating exploration in caves where it could have been a great experience in the plains. Oh and this island is empty too. Codraroll already explained the problem with the "exploration areas" which are just forward without anything interesting. I won't talk about that more but I support totally this fact.

Now let's talk about the Totem battle. Unpopular opinion, the Totem battles are very bad.
The reason why most of people liked the Totem Battles is because they are unforgettable because they were challenging. They were indeed hard, but not in the right sense. If you want to make a challenging Pokémon game, it's pretty simple, you have to do third things. 1) Allow to the player to use potions, revives, items only outside of battles 2) Give the Exp. Share to the player after the league 3) Disallow the possibility to switch your Pokémon when you have killed the mon of the opponent (this feature gets a name but I don't remember it). In doing that, the game becomes challenging without being frustrating because you just have the same rules than your opponents in the game. You don't have to give a boost to a fully evolved mon and to fight at 2 versus 1 with VGC strategies to make a battle challenging.

But still, it's not even my main problem about Totem battles. My main problem is the reason why Totem battles exist. Pokemon Compagny removes the Gym Leaders to put instead of that Totem battles. Why not ? It is not necessary a bad idea. However, if you do that, it is to fix the problem there was with Gym Leaders. What was the problem with Gym Leaders ? The goal of Gym leaders was to be the guardian of the area. When you finished to explore a place, you had to fight the Gym Leader. Once it was done, you could discover new pokemons, new cities, new characters until the next gym leader. Since it was their purpose, they were a necessary stop at the exploration. If you remove Gym Leaders, it is to make the game more free and to improve the feeling of the exploration. Sun&Moon does exactly the contrary. The Totem battles are not different to what Gym Leaders were, they do the exact same thing. What was the point behind that ? Just create an artificial feeling of change without actually changing anything.

I have exactly the same problem with the Pokeride system. Why did HMs exist ? The HMs existed to prevent the player to go everywhere he wants to. If you remove the TM system, you normally hope you will have more freedom. It is not the case, they added instead of that a Pokeride system which... just doesn't have any sense. "Mister Stop" in the game already limit heavily your actions so you don't need anymore these limitations of strength/surf/rocks to prevent the player to pass.
The game could have exploited the pokeride system in limiting the actions of the player due to traditional obstacles of rocks/water/waterfall. In this case, the Pokeride system would have been a soft improvement of the HM system, it would have been the same thing except that you don't need a HM slave anymore. However, instead of that, Sun&Moon added Misters Stop everywhere in obstacles.... Which makes the existence of a Pokeride system completely useless. If the Pokeride was deleted and Misters Stop put instead of the few times it is used, the game would have been exactly the same. So, what is the point of this feature ?

I feel PokemonCompagny listened to fans but didn't understand why they were fed up of the gym leader/HM system. Totem battles and the Pokeride system are exactly the same things under an other name and without fixing the issue.

A last thing, the design of the game is better than previous one... But am I the only one to be heavily disappointed with how characters are designed in this game ? Lusamine especially has her face too big for her body (and even sometimes looks to levitate) and her hair look to be a hat. IN X&Y, characters look like small dolls but not as monstrous as they sometimes are in Sun & Moon.

187490

187491



So, yes, without a doubt, Sun&Moon is for me the worst official Pokémon game ever created. It is unplayable and even "good points" are a failure somewhere.
 
Last edited:

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
About the Sun & Moon topic, I totally agree with Codraroll who expressed my feelings better than I could have done myself. Pokémon is a game of exploration, you don't play at Pokémon for the history or whatever else. Even the new Pokemons are not the main goal of a new game, it's a just secondary purpose which helps to increase the feeling of exploration.

Sun&Moon is the most dirigiste game I have ever played for an "exploration" game. I felt to play at a point and click but without the puzzles, the interesting conversations and the good history behind. The game is just unplayable, it's the only game I have never started again when I finished the first time the adventure.

To do a comparaison, let's take Zelda Breath of the Wild. Zelda is like Pokemon, a game of adventure and exploration. In Botw, they didn't focus about the history (which is the most simple in the world), they didn't focus on the bosses (which are by the way the worst one in the zelda history) but they focused on the exploration. And it worked. Botw is a piece of art because it fills the reason why people buy the game. Due to that, we forgive the lack of inspiration about the history and other little flaws because we simply don't care and like the game how it is.

The first island is basically to click the button A to read the uninteresting conversations and the three other islands is to obey to rotom dex and if you don't, we stop you to anywhere. The irony goes until the ending where you have a cutscene of... 15 minutes. Create a game as dirigiste as it becomes unplayable makes already Sun & Moon the worst official Pokémon game ever created. However, I will still talk about some "good" points of S&M in arguing how they don't make the game better.

The region in itself is okay with some cool places such as Paniola Town, Konikoni city or the Seafolk Village. However, big cities and nature area are meh at best. Nothing is really beautiful in the first island except maybe the Iki Town but it's again a small village. The big nature places in the second island are just a failure. There is no exploration, neither for the jungle nor for the lake. Their only goal is to let the totem battle taking place. I don't know why but in this game, Pokémon Compagny has failed every big city. They are just uninteresting and unnecessary for the game, nothing catches our intention (contrary to Castelia city or Lumiose city where you had a lot stuff to do or people to talk with). The third island starts with a city done by fan-service and as uninteresting as other big cities. Konikoni is a success because you have the atmosphere of the streets with shops in Japan. This city just looks to be an ugly area for tourism. Po Town and Tapu village are both destroyed places and if I know some people like that, it's personally not my cup of tea. The fourth island is probably the best island but unfortunately it's cut between before and after the league which means the exploration too. It became a frustrating exploration in caves where it could have been a great experience in the plains. Oh and this island is empty too. Codraroll already explained the problem with the "exploration areas" which are just forward without anything interesting. I won't talk about that more but I support totally this fact.

Now let's talk about the Totem battle. Unpopular opinion, the Totem battles are very bad.
The reason why most of people liked the Totem Battles is because they are unforgettable because they were challenging. They were indeed hard, but not in the right sense. If you want to make a challenging Pokémon game, it's pretty simple, you have to do third things. 1) Allow to the player to use potions, revives, items only outside of battles 2) Give the Exp. Share to the player after the league 3) Disallow the possibility to switch your Pokémon when you have killed the mon of the opponent (this feature gets a name but I don't remember it). In doing that, the game becomes challenging without being frustrating because you just have the same rules than your opponents in the game. You don't have to give a boost to a fully evolved mon and to fight at 2 versus 1 with VGC strategies to make a battle challenging.

But still, it's not even my main problem about Totem battles. My main problem is the reason why Totem battles exist. Pokemon Compagny removes the Gym Leaders to put instead of that Totem battles. Why not ? It is not necessary a bad idea. However, if you do that, it is to fix the problem there was with Gym Leaders. What was the problem with Gym Leaders ? The goal of Gym leaders was to be the guardian of the area. When you finished to explore a place, you had to fight the Gym Leader. Once it was done, you could discover new pokemons, new cities, new characters until the next gym leader. Since it was their purpose, they were a necessary stop at the exploration. If you remove Gym Leaders, it is to make the game more free and to improve the feeling of the exploration. Sun&Moon does exactly the contrary. The Totem battles are not different to what Gym Leaders were, they do the exact same thing. What was the point behind that ? Just create an artificial feeling of change without actually changing anything.

I have exactly the same problem with the Pokeride system. Why did HMs exist ? The HMs existed to prevent the player to go everywhere he wants to. If you remove the TM system, you normally hope you will have more freedom. It is not the case, they added instead of that a Pokeride system which... just doesn't have any sense. "Mister Stop" in the game already limit heavily your actions so you don't need anymore these limitations of strength/surf/rocks to prevent the player to pass.
The game could have exploited the pokeride system in limiting the actions of the player due to traditional obstacles of rocks/water/waterfall. In this case, the Pokeride system would have been a soft improvement of the HM system, it would have been the same thing except that you don't need a HM slave anymore. However, instead of that, Sun&Moon added Misters Stop everywhere in obstacles.... Which makes the existence of a Pokeride system completely useless. If the Pokeride was deleted and Misters Stop put instead of the few times it is used, the game would have been exactly the same. So, what is the point of this feature ?

I feel PokemonCompagny listened to fans but didn't understand why they were fed up of the gym leader/HM system. Totem battles and the Pokeride system are exactly the same things under an other name and without fixing the issue.

A last thing, the design of the game is better than previous one... But am I the only one to be heavily disappointed with how characters are designed in this game ? Lusamine especially has her face too big for her body (and even sometimes looks to levitate) and her hair look to be a hat. IN X&Y, characters look like small dolls but not as monstrous as they sometimes are in Sun & Moon.





So, yes, without a doubt, Sun&Moon is for me the worst official Pokémon game ever created. It is unplayable and even "good points" are a failure somewhere.
My issue with SM is mostly that it feels slow, which is contributed by the long and boring dialogues and the story as a whole which you already pinpointed, so I am not gonna elaborate much. Although there's exploration here, SM is also a game on first place, and a lot of people prefer that they can finish the games faster if they want to, instead of being forced into some situations that are made with the mindset that the playerbase is incapable of keeping up with a little bit higher speed. At the very least, the story should have been more interesting for a slower development in general (imo Lillie was pretty forced into the games, which is why I do not consider her such a great character). Another thing contributing to the slowness, which I believe was already pinpointed in another post, is the forced tutorials and cutscenes. Sure, a newer player could benefit from tutorials, but forcing veteran players into tutorials they already know just reduces the replay value of the games. One approach I have liked a lot with cutscenes is in Inazuma Eleven GO: CS. There, you are free to skip the cutscene, and it even asks you to confirm if you want to (while pausing the cutscene) just in case you accidentally did it. Regarding tutorials, maybe a simple "Do you want to see the tutorial" with confirmation mechanic will also suffice. If I don't wanna do Festival Plaza, I should not be forced to, plain and simple. I never had problems with the mons distribution and what I had available, along with battles, though Totems surely could be more interesting if they weren't heavily matchup-reliant (in most cases), though OHKOing them with a Z-Move (or even better, without a Z-Move) did feel satisfying, which is why I ultimately don't complain about it.
 
About the Sun & Moon topic, I totally agree with Codraroll who expressed my feelings better than I could have done myself. Pokémon is a game of exploration, you don't play at Pokémon for the history or whatever else. Even the new Pokemons are not the main goal of a new game, it's a just secondary purpose which helps to increase the feeling of exploration.

Sun&Moon is the most dirigiste game I have ever played for an "exploration" game. I felt to play at a point and click but without the puzzles, the interesting conversations and the good history behind. The game is just unplayable, it's the only game I have never started again when I finished the first time the adventure.

To do a comparaison, let's take Zelda Breath of the Wild. Zelda is like Pokemon, a game of adventure and exploration. In Botw, they didn't focus about the history (which is the most simple in the world), they didn't focus on the bosses (which are by the way the worst one in the zelda history) but they focused on the exploration. And it worked. Botw is a piece of art because it fills the reason why people buy the game. Due to that, we forgive the lack of inspiration about the history and other little flaws because we simply don't care and like the game how it is.

The first island is basically to click the button A to read the uninteresting conversations and the three other islands is to obey to rotom dex and if you don't, we stop you to anywhere. The irony goes until the ending where you have a cutscene of... 15 minutes. Create a game as dirigiste as it becomes unplayable makes already Sun & Moon the worst official Pokémon game ever created. However, I will still talk about some "good" points of S&M in arguing how they don't make the game better.

The region in itself is okay with some cool places such as Paniola Town, Konikoni city or the Seafolk Village. However, big cities and nature area are meh at best. Nothing is really beautiful in the first island except maybe the Iki Town but it's again a small village. The big nature places in the second island are just a failure. There is no exploration, neither for the jungle nor for the lake. Their only goal is to let the totem battle taking place. I don't know why but in this game, Pokémon Compagny has failed every big city. They are just uninteresting and unnecessary for the game, nothing catches our intention (contrary to Castelia city or Lumiose city where you had a lot stuff to do or people to talk with). The third island starts with a city done by fan-service and as uninteresting as other big cities. Konikoni is a success because you have the atmosphere of the streets with shops in Japan. This city just looks to be an ugly area for tourism. Po Town and Tapu village are both destroyed places and if I know some people like that, it's personally not my cup of tea. The fourth island is probably the best island but unfortunately it's cut between before and after the league which means the exploration too. It became a frustrating exploration in caves where it could have been a great experience in the plains. Oh and this island is empty too. Codraroll already explained the problem with the "exploration areas" which are just forward without anything interesting. I won't talk about that more but I support totally this fact.

Now let's talk about the Totem battle. Unpopular opinion, the Totem battles are very bad.
The reason why most of people liked the Totem Battles is because they are unforgettable because they were challenging. They were indeed hard, but not in the right sense. If you want to make a challenging Pokémon game, it's pretty simple, you have to do third things. 1) Allow to the player to use potions, revives, items only outside of battles 2) Give the Exp. Share to the player after the league 3) Disallow the possibility to switch your Pokémon when you have killed the mon of the opponent (this feature gets a name but I don't remember it). In doing that, the game becomes challenging without being frustrating because you just have the same rules than your opponents in the game. You don't have to give a boost to a fully evolved mon and to fight at 2 versus 1 with VGC strategies to make a battle challenging.

But still, it's not even my main problem about Totem battles. My main problem is the reason why Totem battles exist. Pokemon Compagny removes the Gym Leaders to put instead of that Totem battles. Why not ? It is not necessary a bad idea. However, if you do that, it is to fix the problem there was with Gym Leaders. What was the problem with Gym Leaders ? The goal of Gym leaders was to be the guardian of the area. When you finished to explore a place, you had to fight the Gym Leader. Once it was done, you could discover new pokemons, new cities, new characters until the next gym leader. Since it was their purpose, they were a necessary stop at the exploration. If you remove Gym Leaders, it is to make the game more free and to improve the feeling of the exploration. Sun&Moon does exactly the contrary. The Totem battles are not different to what Gym Leaders were, they do the exact same thing. What was the point behind that ? Just create an artificial feeling of change without actually changing anything.

I have exactly the same problem with the Pokeride system. Why did HMs exist ? The HMs existed to prevent the player to go everywhere he wants to. If you remove the TM system, you normally hope you will have more freedom. It is not the case, they added instead of that a Pokeride system which... just doesn't have any sense. "Mister Stop" in the game already limit heavily your actions so you don't need anymore these limitations of strength/surf/rocks to prevent the player to pass.
The game could have exploited the pokeride system in limiting the actions of the player due to traditional obstacles of rocks/water/waterfall. In this case, the Pokeride system would have been a soft improvement of the HM system, it would have been the same thing except that you don't need a HM slave anymore. However, instead of that, Sun&Moon added Misters Stop everywhere in obstacles.... Which makes the existence of a Pokeride system completely useless. If the Pokeride was deleted and Misters Stop put instead of the few times it is used, the game would have been exactly the same. So, what is the point of this feature ?

I feel PokemonCompagny listened to fans but didn't understand why they were fed up of the gym leader/HM system. Totem battles and the Pokeride system are exactly the same things under an other name and without fixing the issue.

A last thing, the design of the game is better than previous one... But am I the only one to be heavily disappointed with how characters are designed in this game ? Lusamine especially has her face too big for her body (and even sometimes looks to levitate) and her hair look to be a hat. IN X&Y, characters look like small dolls but not as monstrous as they sometimes are in Sun & Moon.





So, yes, without a doubt, Sun&Moon is for me the worst official Pokémon game ever created. It is unplayable and even "good points" are a failure somewhere.
The Totem battles were meant as just another gimmick. I doubt anyone was seriously tired of gyms. And most dislike HMs due to being unable to forget them without help from the Move Deleter and thus forced to sacrifice a move slot on a desired Pokemon or carry undesirable Pokemon around for the express purpose of using the HMs. (AKA the "HM slave") At least the Poke Ride system freed the player from having to worry about that, albeit not that well in some cases. (hello Mudsdale Gallop)

Lusamine's design isn't that bad. Granted, everything is still at least a little "doll-like" even if the proportions are more natural compared to X/Y. (and silly hair styles seems to be extremely common in Japanese role-playing games such as Pokemon) But maybe I'm just more willing to accept the "big heads" for the sake of better showing expressions... even if the player character rarely shows more than that smile.
 
I was under the impression that HMs were hated because they forced you to have pretty awful and non-forgettable moves in your team, and often resulting in you essentially playing with 1 less pokemon in order to carry a useless HM Slave around, and not because of their "roadblock" nature.

Both Gen 7 and Let's Go removed them in favour of "external" aids that solved same purpose and for that regard, it was blessed by basically everyone.
SwSh seems to be going same route using the Rotom-Dex...bike...something as replacement.

The other complaint was obviously that they were using arbitrary pokemon of someone else (including a couple that weren't even in the obtainable pokemon at start like Charizard), which to be fair Let's Go resolved in a "okay" way by making your partner pokemon use them in some fashion as non in-combat moves.

I can agree that most pokerides are basically pointless and almost noninteractive roadblocks, but they *definitely* were a welcome replacement over HMs.
 
Well, since Alola and BotW have both been brought up, I might as well drop a complaint that applies to both of them: the world is too darn normal. It just doesn't impress me when a dev has the capability to make the environment whatever they please and end up with something I could see, or in some cases have already seen, IRL. Alola's case is not helped by having many of the new mons that don't fit in the "animal+element" category out of the way and/or obtainable only very late (looking at you, Dhelmise). I am aware that this has never been a strong point of the series, but the distribution especially seems much worse in gen 7.
 

Apagogie

Zee you later
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
I was under the impression that HMs were hated because they forced you to have pretty awful and non-forgettable moves in your team, and often resulting in you essentially playing with 1 less pokemon in order to carry a useless HM Slave around, and not because of their "roadblock" nature.

Both Gen 7 and Let's Go removed them in favour of "external" aids that solved same purpose and for that regard, it was blessed by basically everyone.
SwSh seems to be going same route using the Rotom-Dex...bike...something as replacement.

The other complaint was obviously that they were using arbitrary pokemon of someone else (including a couple that weren't even in the obtainable pokemon at start like Charizard), which to be fair Let's Go resolved in a "okay" way by making your partner pokemon use them in some fashion as non in-combat moves.

I can agree that most pokerides are basically pointless and almost noninteractive roadblocks, but they *definitely* were a welcome replacement over HMs.
Yes, I agree with you.

This part of my post was probably a bit confusing so I will summarize my thoughts in trying to be clear. The Pokeride system is not a bad system in itself (such as removing Gym Leader) and I am happy to don't have to use a HMs slaver in my team. However, the system is not very well realized in this game. Since Surf between islands is not possible, the only really mandatory pokeride to not make the game boring is Charizard. Other pokerides can be easily removed in doing some minor changes to the map. It would have been easily possible to make a Sun&Moon game without HMs and without Pokerides.

My issue with Pokerides it is not that it is an awful system (it is an improvement on paper) but it is just an useless system in this game.

A more interesting use of this system would have been to remove "Misters Stop" and put instead of them natural obstacles such as rock, water, etc everywhere and, thanks to the pokerides, you would have been able to destroy them if you have unblocked the right ride. In this case, Pokerides would have been just an improvement of the HMs system. Nevertheless, in S&M, the system doesn't have much use and could have been easily removed for no Hms no pokerides. In my point of view, you cannot talk about an improvement if you add a system to a game which has no reason to exist when you think 2 minutes about it.
 

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
is a Community Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Going to do something different and work backwards:

In spite of all the whining about GF pandering to the genwunner bogeyman, I think Charizard as Leon's ace is a perfect choice.

SWSH have seemingly gone through great lengths to make the Pokemon League look like a huge commercialized sporting event in Galar. Gym Leaders with huge stadiums and sponsors on their outfits, heavily televized league matches, so on and so forth. At the center of all of this is Leon himself, who looks like the greatest showman out of any champion thus far, decked out with a tacky cape, sponsors and a massive presence in Galar's culture, almost like a big soccer player irl. He's a big star, and he's gotta show off his stature. What better choice than a hugely popular Pokemon, especially among children, who could be attracted to said popular foreign Pokemon and increase stadium ticket sales or boost the ratings of his matches on TV?
I fully support this theory! :D Even though Charizard is my favorite, I fully know its overrated and I can see someone or group who's trying to get as much appeal as possible using it to help (Pokemon Company often slaps a Charizard on a game's title if they can get away with it):

(Charizard (along with Kingdra, Flygon, and Salamence) only appear for one boss battle yet gets top billing while the main characters only appear in small silver silhouettes (with their partner Plusle and Minun nowhere to be seen))

With that said I wonder if that's how Leon's entire team will be like. He'll probably have at least one new Pokemon so it can Gigantamax, though I can see him also being given a Greninja, Sylveon, Lucario, and Magnezone (if you're wondering why, remember that Japanese popularity poll... ;)).

Pokémon was never an exploration game, or at least explicitly so. It’s always been a mostly linear adventure game
Eh... yes and no.

Yes, there is a planned path and recent games have made it so set pieces do happen in a set order.

BUT said set pieces you're usually allowed to explore to find items, NPCs, and other features both obvious and secret. And post game usually has a lot of additional stuff unlock and the player is expected to re-explore the region on their own to find it. Black & White is a good example of this, Chuggaaconroy was able to get 27 additional videos from the post game.

I think Voltorb's Flip is actually a decent game, if you were to take away huge part of the luck aspect.
And in no way would I ever suggest a third party algorithm which gives you the best chance of playing the odd *cough*.

But as for Voltorb Flip itself, yeah its a fine game, but the problem with it I feel more has to do with WHY it exists instead of the game itself or it even replacing the old Game Corner and being able to buy coins.

We all know the story so I won't go into too much detail: Europe passed a law which made games that included gambling elements be rated PEGI 18. To hold onto its "for everyone" rating, they replaced the Game Corner in Europe's Platinum with Voltorb Flip. Then international versions of HGSS also replaced Game Corner with Voltorb Flip for seemingly no reason while the Japanese version kept Goldenrod Game Corner. And then they just took out the Game Corner altogether Gen VI onwards, ORAS even having its Game Corner closed down as if to rub salt in the wounds.

While understandable GameFreak/Pokemon Company wanting to keep a kids/everyone rating, you could hardly consider Voltorb Flip an equivalent replacement. Now Let's Go had an interesting idea by turning the Game Corner into an arcade instead of casino, though sadly it was just cosmetic instead of making some mini-games. If they don't want to put the work in to make new mini-games, I think it would be neat to make the old e-Reader mini-games the arcade games (maybe updating them to include newer Pokemon; also throw in other mini-games like Surfing Pikachu, Pokemon Mini, Pokemon Stadium mini-games, and Pokemon Channel games).
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
I...honestly don’t care about shiny Pokemon. If I see one of course I’ll catch it, but Shiny hunting is something I have neither the time nor inclination to do.
i feel like this isn't really unpopular, shiny hunters really only make up a small part of the playerbase.

as someone who has done a few deliberate shiny hunting projects in the past, i might as well explain the other side of the argument.

now, unless you have all the time in the world, you can't really shiny hunt for a lot of pokemon. there's no real reason to hunt for a pokemon you're indifferent towards unless it's super easy to get (see wormhole shinies, guaranteed shinies). because of this, i've only seriously tried to get shiny pokemon that are already favorites of mine, and i suspect others feel the same way. it's like a way to show everyone how much you care about that mon, like a ribbon project or whatever.

for me personally, golisopod was one of my favorite pokemon. i'd used it a bit competitively, its design was interesting both aesthetically and in battle, its shiny looked really cool, and it was used by one of my favorite characters in the whole series. so i got 5 iv wimpods with all the egg moves on them and kept hatching eggs over the course of a few weeks.

i won't pretend the grind was fun, because it was pretty unfulfilling for the most part (although ending up with a bunch of perfect iv wimpods was kinda neat). but when i did finally get my red wimpod, everything just became worth it.

the "value" in shiny pokemon is kind of weird. obviously easy shinies to get like gyarados would look cool but not be super valuable in your eyes. but even random shiny pokemon you might find in the wild still aren't super valuable in my opinion. i think that the real value in shiny pokemon is the same as the effort you put in to get it in the first place. so the random shiny jangmo-o i found is a really cool find for sure, but it can't hold a candle to the wimpod i put in all those hours for.

and every time i send out that golisopod now in battle tree or wifi battles and see that shiny spark, i'm reminded of that effort that i put in to get this super cool shiny. its really nice.

now, i don't shiny hunt that often, in fact the wimpod was really the only serious project ive done so far outside of a couple poke radar mons in platinum, as a lot of other mons can be unfulfilling to use ingame despite having amazing designs (cryogonal, all the ultra beasts). but i can definitely see why people do.

tl;dr shiny hunting is just a high effort way of making your mon look cool, and the high effort is what largely contributes to your pride in the mon

I think Voltorb's Flip is actually a decent game, if you were to take away huge part of the luck aspect.
i actually grew up with dpp>hgss but i still think voltorb flip is better than those ridiculous slot machines. yeah, it's kind of luck based, but what i like is that it's pretty quick, not super hard to understand, and rewarding if you do understand it.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
I don't know how much of a hot take this is but I still feel it's worth sharing.

IVs need to go. They are an utterly dreadful mechanic that only raise the barrier to entry for competitive play and actively make the games worse.

To show you how hard they suck, lemme compare them to the other two bastions of competitive Pokemon:

EVs and their gain are 100% controlled by the player. Sure, you may have to do some reading online to figure out who gives what and it can still be tedious even after grabbing the training items and doing the routine, but it's not absolutely insufferable and it promotes player choice by allowing them to fine-tune their team in unexpected, creative and incredibly precise ways: If you frequently play or even just spectate VGC or draft leagues, you know what I'm talking about. And should you screw up, don't worry, for there are ways to reset your EV gains.

Natures are RNG-based, yes, but here's the thing: While some natures are more ideal than others depending on the Pokemon, a lot of the time certain natures aren't explicitly worse than others. In some cases they can actually make you think of ways to use certain Pokemon differently, like how I once caught a Bagon in ORAS with a Timid nature and trained it up into a Hyper Voice-spamming special attacking Mega Salamence rather than a typical Dragon Dancer.

IVs don't do any of that. They don't make you think outside the box, they don't increase player agency and they certainly don't add any interesting facets to teambuilding. If your Pokemon has even slightly lacking IVs compared to another Pokemon of the same species, they are a flat-out inferior version of said Pokemon, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. And isn't that kinda antithetical to what this series is all about? About forming a bond with and training your Pokemon? But no, they don't have perfect stats:tm:, so off to the daycare they go to pump out babies until you do get that perfect specimen after riding your bike back and forth for potentially hours. If even after multiple generations of trying to simplify the IV grind most competitive players would rather hack or use Showdown, that's a sign the mechanic itself is fundamentally flawed and needs to be either totally reworked or scrapped entirely.
 
I don't know how much of a hot take this is but I still feel it's worth sharing.

IVs need to go. They are an utterly dreadful mechanic that only raise the barrier to entry for competitive play and actively make the games worse.

To show you how hard they suck, lemme compare them to the other two bastions of competitive Pokemon:

EVs and their gain are 100% controlled by the player. Sure, you may have to do some reading online to figure out who gives what and it can still be tedious even after grabbing the training items and doing the routine, but it's not absolutely insufferable and it promotes player choice by allowing them to fine-tune their team in unexpected, creative and incredibly precise ways: If you frequently play or even just spectate VGC or draft leagues, you know what I'm talking about. And should you screw up, don't worry, for there are ways to reset your EV gains.

Natures are RNG-based, yes, but here's the thing: While some natures are more ideal than others depending on the Pokemon, a lot of the time certain natures aren't explicitly worse than others. In some cases they can actually make you think of ways to use certain Pokemon differently, like how I once caught a Bagon in ORAS with a Timid nature and trained it up into a Hyper Voice-spamming special attacking Mega Salamence rather than a typical Dragon Dancer.

IVs don't do any of that. They don't make you think outside the box, they don't increase player agency and they certainly don't add any interesting facets to teambuilding. If your Pokemon has even slightly lacking IVs compared to another Pokemon of the same species, they are a flat-out inferior version of said Pokemon, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. And isn't that kinda antithetical to what this series is all about? About forming a bond with and training your Pokemon? But no, they don't have perfect stats:tm:, so off to the daycare they go to pump out babies until you do get that perfect specimen after riding your bike back and forth for potentially hours. If even after multiple generations of trying to simplify the IV grind most competitive players would rather hack or use Showdown, that's a sign the mechanic itself is fundamentally flawed and needs to be either totally reworked or scrapped entirely.
I wholeheartedly agree. There are only three instances where non-31 IVs are ideal, and for the most part, none make a huge impact.
  1. Minimizing Speed for Trick Room. You can already lower your Speed with natures. Lowering your Speed even more is nice, but not super necessary for Trick Room to function.
  2. Minimizing Attack on special attackers to lower confusion and Foul Play damage. This is a small optimization and usually only important in fringe cases.
  3. Fine-tuning stats for Beast Boost. This only really impacts two Ultra Beasts: Kartana and Stakataka. Timid Kartana is a meme, but Stakataka wouldn't be nearly as threatening if it couldn't get Attack boosts.
So yeah, all that would really change if IVs were removed is that Stakataka would get worse. Though the removal of IVs might buff a different Ultra Beast, as it might allow Blacephalon to use Hidden Power Fighting.
 
As someone who has spent hours, months, years breeding Pokémon to be high-IV and going through so much effort to get the right tools for the job and slaving away for breed requests and making so many memorable battlers with them; all I can say about your estimation as someone who has put in so much time and effort...

... is that yeah, it's completely right; the mechanic's rubbish and just another pointless time waster. Was disappointed but not surprised that when LGPE decided to simplify things this wasn't one of the things that got axed. It can go
 
I had an idea to deal with the shitty IV system. While it's realistic (some people are born better than others. Sorry to say that.), as it stands it's terrible gameplay and counter to the themes of Pokemon. So maybe there could be something like Hyper Training, but more interactive, less of a hassle to get into, actually sets the IV to 31 (or any other valid value you want), etc. I don't know what it'd be exactly, but I'd think it be some appropriately themed minigames to the stat you want to IV train (maybe have multiple minigames per stat so it's not as repetitive.) with an emphasis on working hard (or maybe less if you want to lower a stat. Terrible, I know, but yeah.). Do better, and you get closer to the value you want. And balance the price of the service based on how good it is (though probably priced higher than lower). Also, make it come in pretty early maybe. Combine it with ease of "de facto" Nature training, the ability to switch Abilities relatively (even between normal Abilities to HAs, though make the normal Ability transition to HA harder than normal), and possibly easy HP switching; you've the start of a potentially decent system for making good Pokemon easier to get without ditching the ones you have. And to add one final addendum to this: have the competent opponents take advantage of your ease of getting decent Pokemon by having them having really good or even optimized Pokemon (for bosses preferably the latter).

Do I think Gamefreak will ever implement this? Hell no. They're Gamefreak and will never implement and idea like this. They've proven time and again how lazy, incompetent, uncaring, and out of touch they are (especially these days). This might have the ability to see the light of day in a fangame though (though let's be honest. No fangame creator's ever going to see this random post by an irrelevant person and implement a vague idea that could be problematic to implement. Add to that I don't work on fangames.), but that's all it could ever be found in.

Sorry for my ranting and petty jabs at certain things, but there's my two cents (in poorly written form).
 

earl

(EVIOLITE COMPATIBLE)
is a Community Contributor
I had an idea to deal with the shitty IV system. While it's realistic (some people are born better than others. Sorry to say that.), as it stands it's terrible gameplay and counter to the themes of Pokemon. So maybe there could be something like Hyper Training, but more interactive, less of a hassle to get into, actually sets the IV to 31 (or any other valid value you want), etc. I don't know what it'd be exactly, but I'd think it be some appropriately themed minigames to the stat you want to IV train (maybe have multiple minigames per stat so it's not as repetitive.) with an emphasis on working hard (or maybe less if you want to lower a stat. Terrible, I know, but yeah.). Do better, and you get closer to the value you want. And balance the price of the service based on how good it is (though probably priced higher than lower). Also, make it come in pretty early maybe. Combine it with ease of "de facto" Nature training, the ability to switch Abilities relatively (even between normal Abilities to HAs, though make the normal Ability transition to HA harder than normal), and possibly easy HP switching; you've the start of a potentially decent system for making good Pokemon easier to get without ditching the ones you have. And to add one final addendum to this: have the competent opponents take advantage of your ease of getting decent Pokemon by having them having really good or even optimized Pokemon (for bosses preferably the latter).

Do I think Gamefreak will ever implement this? Hell no. They're Gamefreak and will never implement and idea like this. They've proven time and again how lazy, incompetent, uncaring, and out of touch they are (especially these days). This might have the ability to see the light of day in a fangame though (though let's be honest. No fangame creator's ever going to see this random post by an irrelevant person and implement a vague idea that could be problematic to implement. Add to that I don't work on fangames.), but that's all it could ever be found in.

Sorry for my ranting and petty jabs at certain things, but there's my two cents (in poorly written form).
That's just EVs at that point, I mean there were even minigames to boost them in gen 6
 
That's just EVs at that point, I mean there were even minigames to boost them in gen 6
Probably not wrong, but meh. Still keeps the system, initial diversity, and the partial realism of the system. Also is probably harder to get around than EV training (needs money and special services.). But bah, those reasons I gave are weak. Just an idea. (I also wouldn't be too sad to see the IV system die in a fire, but this was a way to work with it).
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
I've been told I'm wrong many times so It's gotta be an unpopular opinion right?

Despite its flaws, I still believe that Fire Red and Leaf Green are one of the best core games in the series
I agree with this, FRLG are pretty good nonethless, though certainly they are not my favs (BW and HGSS are pmuch my favorites). I get to enjoy Kanto with no gazillion bugs or glitches.

Also, there's no wrong opinion other than cereal before milk, that's the only wrong opinion ever.
 

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