SPOILERS! Pokemon Sword & Shield Pre-Release SPOILERS - Check Post 2!

[DrPumpkinz]

Important thing to note about dynamaxing- anything can do it, with no item restriction. This means you can choose what you dynamax on the fly to counter an opponent’s dynamax. A lot more nuance compared to “My Heatran will now beat water types with this item” like Z moves were

Additionally, the lack of an item restriction means it has a much lower opportunity cost when it comes to team building. With Megas and Z-moves, you had to choose them while team building. Using Mega Scizor meant you couldn't use Mega Mawile, and using Z-Kartana meant you couldn't use Z-Magearna. Well, technically you could, but it was a bad idea because it ensured that one of your Pokemon would have a useless item in every game.

With Dynamaxing, all six of your Pokemon can do it, with the ONLY condition being that once you power up one, you can't power up the others. This means that even in the builder, you can effectively design a team around multiple Dynamax Pokemon. "If I'm up against offense, I'll dynamax Dragapult. If I'm up against balance, I'll dynamax Hydreigon." Once again, you could technically do this with Megas and Z-moves, but it wasn't very popular because of the item requirement. And unless every member of your team had a mega stone or z-crystal, you were never allowed to deviate from your initial gameplan in battle quite like you can with Dynamaxing. "I may have designed this team with Dragapult and Hydreigon in mind, but if I dynamax Frosmoth right now, I win."

 

[lace_flye]

...would all gimmicks at once even be possible?

With no knowledge of the coding side, the main hurdle would be working out how Z-moves and Mega Evolution would interact with Dynamax (can you Dynamax a Mega? Can Max Moves be turned into even more powerful Z-moves?). Would that be fun?

 

[Rarycaris]

up to 120 for a 40 BP move.

To be fair, that is quite potent for Pokemon which get otherwise very weak coverage moves to suddenly be able to use them effectively. Still not on the level of Z-moves, which were usually in the 170 range on relevant coverage moves, but enough that I can see it being a power level concern on some things.

But I really think the "too much guesswork during teambuilding" and "no defensive counterplay" components of Z-moves are being underrated here. The problem with Z moves wasn't just that you could get unpredictably screwed, but also that you had to anticipate this ahead of time *and* have the option there and then to deal with it -- and if your own Z move happened to not be needed in this fight, you're at a massive disadvantage.

 

[earl]

Or your counter gets mashed because they decided to Dynamax that specific turn and now you're forced to Dynamax your Weavile to desperately take back momentum. It's not like the game asks you if you want to Dynamax when your opponent does, you just get boned. I don't see how any argument could be made that this will promote a healthy metagame.

Time to slap Protect on every Pokemon that can feasibly run it.



When was this ever confirmed.



So when you hold a Life Orb they are actually significantly more powerful than a Z move.

In what world does a 30 BP increase on a move suddenly change your counter into an OHKO victim? You’re making this out to be much stronger than it actually is. Your counter will still take more, maybe enough to 2HKO, but you can dynamax after the first hit to turn back into a counter. Compare this to Z-Moves, where your Shadow Ball is suddenly more than double the BP.

 

[CTNC]

I wanna say yes, but I'm not sure how it would exactly be done. It seems like it would be a mess deciding how the mechanics will intertwine (I.E. can you max a Z move user, can you use Dynamax after using a Z move, balancing all three together.) I imagine National OU would be Z move / mega-less because of this, but all three could possibly exist together in another meta.

Rayquaza can't Mega Evolve if it has a Z Crystal, so I'd assume Mega Evolutions and Pokemon with Z Crystals wouldn't be able to Dynamax.

As for what happens once everything is figured out... Well, what are the odds of things ending well if Mega Evolutions, Z Moves, and Dynamaxing are available? :P

 

[MrHands]

I what world does a 30 BP increase on a move suddenly change your counter into an OHKO victim? You’re making this out to be much stronger than it actually is. Your counter will still take more, maybe enough to 2HKO, but you can dynamax after the first hit to turn back into a counter. Compare this to Z-Moves, where your Shadow Ball is suddenly more than double the BP.

Because when holding Life Orb it's stronger than a Z move and it applies to all of your moves. Not sure if you played gen 7 but Z moves basically gave you free reign to OHKO your counters. Unlike Z moves it isn't just a damage increase you also get a huge HP buff and a lot of Max moves give you stat boosts just for using them.

Also you get it for three turns lol so I don't know how you're trying to talk it down as if it's somehow more balanced than a Z move.

 

[Bombkirby]

If you Dynamax a Pokemon who has a Gigantimax form, does it automatically turn into its Gigantimax form? Or do you need to unlock it somehow? I'm wondering if there's still some forms people haven't run into. No one has an in-game screenshot of several known G-Max forms (apple dragon), and the guide book that the leaker took photos of is missing a few forms, so I'm wondering if there's possibly some G-Max forms that have been undiscovered.

 

[Ghost Turd]

I'm sorry, where did Corviknight's stats on the spreadsheet come from, seeing as they are listed as exact rather than ranges? Was a Battle Tower set for it seen somewhere? If not, please change it back to a range, those stats judging by current Corvi's performance in the speculatory meta with lower base stats are insane, and way too high for a regional bird (highest rn is Talonflame with 499 BST, Corvi supposedly has 530 according to the sheet). If those are the real stats... well damn, we got a lot more than Dragapult to worry about.

Smogon will ultimately save us from Dexit.


I don't think we know, because I've searched the post that contained all the Battle Tower teams and it doesn't show Corviknight

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokemon-sword-shield-pre-release-spoilers.3655568/post-8273026

I believe Corvi's stats were calculated from a leaked screenshot of it at lv. 63. Whoever calculated those stats probably assumed 31 IVs and 0 EVs.

 

[Rarycaris]

I what world does a 30 BP increase on a move suddenly change your counter into an OHKO victim?

In fairness, it's not uncommon for certain counters to be EV'd to survive a specific hit, and Max Moves make that much harder. Fortunately, such threats are few enough without the plethora of bullshit setup options and general legendaries power creeping in USUM. If a specific threat is *reliant* on specialised counters barely surviving a single hit, it's probably banworthy and can be dealt with on a case by case basis.

Unlike Z moves it isn't just a damage increase you also get a huge HP buff

Remember that that HP buff, which can be applied to anything without prior teambuilding preparation, can also be used to tank these suddenly problematic moves. There are a few moves which are on par with Z moves when Life Orb is considered... but (1) that Life Orb is still dealing 10% of your now-doubled HP in recoil, which is not inconsiderable, and (2) most of those moves were *already* on par with Z moves without Dynamax. LO Draco Meteor is 169 Base Power, for instance, and that was only ever a problem because Steels were the only way to resist them pre-gen 6.

I'm not saying that Dynamax doesn't have the potential to be a problem (particularly in how they remove the drawbacks of high BP moves like Draco and make players deal with multiple successive hits of that power level, but also if the stat change effect happens to be distributed optimally and turns them into Contrary Leaf Storm), but I think you're underestimating the degree to which "turns weak non-STAB coverage into a nuke" contributes to Z-moves being problematic.

 

[Pushinguplilacs]

I what world does a 30 BP increase on a move suddenly change your counter into an OHKO victim? You’re making this out to be much stronger than it actually is. Your counter will still take more, maybe enough to 2HKO, but you can dynamax after the first hit to turn back into a counter. Compare this to Z-Moves, where your Shadow Ball is suddenly more than double the BP.

Your agitated responses to most things in this thread bring me life.

Also I just gotta say cuz I've seen it a lot in this thread and it irritates me. Trick room is not an effective or very viable playstyle for a smogon singles team. No pokemon is going to be tiered based on how lethal they can be in trick room. Trick room is a tool with some potency in vgc, but yall nuts if you think trick room usage is going to effect smogon tiers. It's never been an effective playstyle and it probably wont be. I'd almost argue its potency in vgc is even questionable, but that's a whole nother arguement.

If a pokemon needs trick room to be viable at all, it's bad. That's all, thanks for coming to my TED talk.

 

[Blazen]

Rayquaza can't Mega Evolve if it has a Z Crystal, so I'd assume Mega Evolutions and Pokemon with Z Crystals wouldn't be able to Dynamax.

As for what happens once everything is figured out... Well, what are the odds of things ending well if Mega Evolutions, Z Moves, and Dynamaxing are available? :P

To add to this, a ditto that transforms into a mega pokemon can't use a Z move if I remember right. I think the answer to a meta with all gimmicks included is simple. An order is set. If a Pokemon dynamaxes then it can no longer mega or use a z move. If it used a z move or mega evolved then it can no longer dynamax. This prevents some random cheese like mega dyna rayquaza.

Still a meta with all three options allowed will be... insane. Charizard would have 4 different power up forms to choose from that need to be planned around and speed boost Blaziken now has two dangerous options to consider.

 

[PimpParasect]

If you Dynamax a Pokemon who has a Gigantimax form, does it automatically turn into its Gigantimax form? Or do you need to unlock it somehow? I'm wondering if there's still some forms people haven't run into. No one has an in-game screenshot of several known G-Max forms (apple dragon), and the guide book that the leaker took photos of is missing a few forms, so I'm wondering if there's possibly some G-Max forms that have been undiscovered.

Only special pokemon can G-max. You have to encounter and capture the G-certified pokemon from raids, and use those.

ex; any centiskorch you find can't G-max, but if you find a G-max raid of one, the one you catch in the raid can.

Aegislash bullshit

King's Shield alone is half the reason for it to be banned, that shit creates SO many 50/50 situations it's not even funny and the worst is we've seen it in real scenarios.

I'm not proban or anti-ban, would like to actually see aegislash in the meta for some time rather than outright quick ban it..

But can we not pretend that 50/50s had anything to do with its ban and won't be the reason for it to be banned? Its been the fucking worst argument since its x/y suspect that mostly everyone agreed was a bullshit reasoning anyway.

Aegislash was banned for centralizing the entire meta, checking almost everything in it and being too difficult to teambuild against without running an aegislash yourself. It was too unpredictable with its sub-toxic set, crumbler head smash set, and the fact it can pick or choose its walls either with a physical or special set. The 50/50 argument was never valid because there's plenty of 50/50 elements in the game, there was just nothing as godly at checking and countering the entire meta in one team slot. The only thing too difficult to predict about aegislash was the set it was running, checking it could instead just be a death sentence or an opportunity for it to setup. King's Shield had nothing to do with this, especially since not all physical attacks were contact moves anyway, Smeargle wasn't broken with it, and status/special moves were unaffected.

If 50/50s was a legitmate excuse; sucker punch, double switching, and the upcoming obstagoon would be immidiately restricted.

That being said, if it were to get banned, it'd be primarily for it being too damn good at walling and sweeping the entire meta, and like others have already mentioned, even old checks still can't handle it or lose to some of its sets. The only hope would be if the dynamaxed counters actually threatened aegislash, especially since it can't use dynamax well itself due to king's shield changing. A lot of dyna mons may manage the vital 2hko's, ohko's, or surviving the 3hko's inorder to beat aegislash.

 

[Blazen]

Your agitated responses to most things in this thread bring me life.

Also I just gotta say cuz I've seen it a lot in this thread and it irritates me. Trick room is not an effective or very viable playstyle for a smogon singles team. No pokemon is going to be tiered based on how lethal they can be in trick room. Trick room is a tool with some potency in vgc, but yall nuts if you think trick room usage is going to effect smogon tiers. It's never been an effective playstyle and it probably wont be. I'd almost argue its potency in vgc is even questionable, but that's a whole nother arguement.

If a pokemon needs trick room to be viable at all, it's bad. That's all, thanks for coming to my TED talk.

I'm pretty sure the only time trick room will truly be viable in singles is if we get a pokemon that can set trick room as an ability and an item is introduced to boost the number of turns it lasts ala weather items/light clay.

Only special pokemon can G-max. You have to encounter and capture the G-certified pokemon from raids, and use those.

ex; any centiskorch you find can't G-max, but if you find a G-max raid of one, the one you catch can.

Still curious if there will be a way to pass on G-Max forms like through breeding.

Regarding the Aegislash stuff, I'm a bit lost. Are people talking about if it should be quick banned or not?

 

[PimpParasect]

Still curious if there will be a way to pass on G-Max forms like through breeding.

Doubt it, but at least you can transfer same species egg moves to them without having to breed, hyper train, and supposedly they have a chance to have HAs too. Only hidden power variets, or shinies would require the breeding.

 

[Sirya]

Only special pokemon can G-max. You have to encounter and capture the G-certified pokemon from raids, and use those.

ex; any centiskorch you find can't G-max, but if you find a G-max raid of one, the one you catch can.

Aegislash bullshit

I'm not proban or anti-ban, would like to actually see aegislash in the meta for some time rather than outright quick ban it..

But can we not pretend that 50/50s had anything to do with its ban and won't be the reason for it to be banned? Its been the fucking worst argument since its x/y suspect that mostly everyone agreed was a bullshit reasoning anyway.

Aegislash was banned for centralizing the entire meta, checking almost everything in it and being too difficult to teambuild against without running an aegislash yourself. It was too unpredictable with its sub-toxic set, crumbler head smash set, and the fact it can pick or choose its walls either with a physical or special set. The 50/50 argument was never valid because there's plenty of 50/50 elements in the game, there was just nothing as godly at checking and countering the entire meta in one team slot. The only thing too difficult to predict about aegislash was the set it was running, checking it could instead just be a death sentence or an opportunity for it to setup. King's Shield had nothing to do with this, especially since not all physical attacks were contact moves anyway, Smeargle wasn't broken with it, and status/special moves were unaffected.

If 50/50s was a legitmate excuse; sucker punch, double switching, and the upcoming obstagoon would be immidiately restricted.

That being said, if it were to get banned, it'd be primarily for it being too damn good at walling and sweeping the entire meta, and like others have already mentioned, even old checks still can't handle it or lose to some of its sets. The only hope would be if the dynamaxed counters actually threatened aegislash, especially since it can't use dynamax well itself due to king's shield changing. A lot of dyna mons may manage the vital 2hko's, ohko's, or surviving the 3hko's inorder to beat aegislash.

Aegislash was too good for a lot of reasons, one of them being the constant 50 50 which aren't comparable to a pursuit or a sucker. A Pursuit or a Sucker can be a game definer in certain, very specific situations. King's Shield is a trigger that you use against any mon to scout and, in the case of a physical attacker, even said pursuiters, cripple them.

Again, there're lots of reasons, but you can't just pretend kings shield didn't exist or have any impact because it just isn't that way. Idk what you say about setup because the most prevalent set aegi was running before its ban was quiet sb, and it almost never "ran" through teams while discovering which set it was running, mostly because this is aegislash we are talking about, not dppl mence. Its a pain in the ass, it hits like a truck and every Pokémon that checked it and had contact moves was susceptible to king's shield. That's all. You are talking as if someone is defending Aegislash should be ban becase, and just because King's Shield. No. It's all of what you, I and others have already said AND king's shield, of course. But I don't buy this "king's shield is nothing" because I've too played that meta and I've seen the incontable cries in regards to everything this Pokémon has to offer, and that includes, oooh yes it includes kings shield.

 

[Blazen]

King's Shield is kind of just one part of what makes Aegislash so broken. Pretty sure it has more to do with its sheer versatility, having an effective bst of 720, and how King's Shield interacts with its ability to facilitate said versatility and effective bst.

 

[Cresselia92]

This whole debate about Aegislash made me think about something: what if King's Shield was banned instead? A lot of past policies were about not removing elements if they weren't broken on other Pokémon (ie, banning Greninja in XY rather than Protean because Frogadier and Kecleon are far from broken).

One of the main reasonings thrown around in previous discussions was that the move King's Shield wasn't considered for the chopping block as Smeargle could use it and not be broken.

But things are different now, as Smeargle is nowhere to be seen in Galar and, unless other Pokémon got it, Aegislash would end up being the only Pokémon able to use KS. The other way to use the move would be through gimmicks/luck, a la Copycat/Me First/Metronome (lol).

There is already a precedent of banning the “signature” of a Pokémon (Power Construct for Zygarde), so if KS were to regain true “signature” status, wouldn’t it make sense to just ban the “signature”?

Just throwing my two cents.

 

[Blazen]

This whole debate about Aegislash made me think about something: what if King's Shield was banned instead? A lot of past policies were about not removing elements if they weren't broken on other Pokémon (ie, banning Greninja in XY rather than Protean because Frogadier and Kecleon are far from broken).

One of the main reasonings thrown around in previous discussions was that the move King's Shield wasn't considered for the chopping block as Smeargle could use it and not be broken.

But things are different now, as Smeargle is nowhere to be seen in Galar and, unless other Pokémon got it, Aegislash would end up being the only Pokémon able to use KS. The other way to use the move would be through gimmicks/luck, a la Copycat/Me First/Metronome (lol).

There is already a precedent of banning the “signature” of a Pokémon (Power Construct for Zygarde), so if KS were to regain true “signature” status, wouldn’t it make sense to just ban the “signature”?

Just throwing my two cents.

That's certainly one possibility but the issue there is that it isn't the move itself that's broken I guess... for instance likely Obstruct isn't going to be similarly banned. That also doesn't completely solve the versatility problem. Aegislash could still run physical or special sets really well, especially with team support and being a decent max option. Ubers is likely going to be where it shines most anyways, being a check to all three of the big legendaries. I guess that's always a potential suspect though.

 

[Yung Dramps]

This whole debate about Aegislash made me think about something: what if King's Shield was banned instead? A lot of past policies were about not removing elements if they weren't broken on other Pokémon (ie, banning Greninja in XY rather than Protean because Frogadier and Kecleon are far from broken).

One of the main reasonings thrown around in previous discussions was that the move King's Shield wasn't considered for the chopping block as Smeargle could use it and not be broken.

But things are different now, as Smeargle is nowhere to be seen in Galar and, unless other Pokémon got it, Aegislash would end up being the only Pokémon able to use KS. The other way to use the move would be through gimmicks/luck, a la Copycat/Me First/Metronome (lol).

There is already a precedent of banning the “signature” of a Pokémon (Power Construct for Zygarde), so if KS were to regain true “signature” status, wouldn’t it make sense to just ban the “signature”?

Just throwing my two cents.

As far as I know, Smogon is against banning certain aspects of a Pokemon except for alt forms purely the sake of nerfing them to an acceptable level. At least, that was the response I got when I asked about banning Thousand Arrows instead of Zygarde itself one time in the USUM OU SQSA thread...

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Is there a list of all the new abilities and what they do? I saw some in that visual Pokedex thing that's been posted already.

 

[earl]

Your agitated responses to most things in this thread bring me life.

Also I just gotta say cuz I've seen it a lot in this thread and it irritates me. Trick room is not an effective or very viable playstyle for a smogon singles team. No pokemon is going to be tiered based on how lethal they can be in trick room. Trick room is a tool with some potency in vgc, but yall nuts if you think trick room usage is going to effect smogon tiers. It's never been an effective playstyle and it probably wont be. I'd almost argue its potency in vgc is even questionable, but that's a whole nother arguement.

If a pokemon needs trick room to be viable at all, it's bad. That's all, thanks for coming to my TED talk.

I feel like you’re reading my posts in a different tone than intended (outside of unbanning aegi lol anyone who thinks that is dumb)
As for Trick Room, it’s always existed as a niche offensively play style. Never quite broke past the C ranks in OU, but there were things in OU specifically ranked for their trick room effectiveness. At and one point Trick Room Magearna was the best Magearna set. But otherwise I mostly agree that people are overhyping slow mons on trick room, but it’s a not a new generation without extreme overhyping of stuff that will end up as garbage (“Silvally will be the Arceus of UU” last gen lol)

 

[Garrus01]

I have to wonder if a Brave nature on Grimmsnarl plus Room Service would be a viable physical Trick Room sweeper. From what I can see, it's not in the best speed tier, and I'm not sure a Scarf is enough to help it.

 

[dodiabla]

I would like to play one (1) SwSh singles battle before coming to a decision on whether certain Pokémon/mechanics/abilities/moves/etc. are banworthy.

 

[Siggu]

Once again speaking from speculatory meta experience: LMAO FUCK NO AEGISLASH IS BUSTED

Almost nothing has changed for it. It still hits like a bastard, it still tanks like a bastard, and now it even has Sacred Sword Dynamax sets and possibly special sets with Max Ghost raising SpA although that's a speculatory effect rn. The only thing that has changed is that outside of Dynamaxed foes the meta it resides in is generally far weaker. To give you an idea, we already quickbanned it a while back and since then Doublade has been able to take its place as an A-tier substitute, EVEN IN THE MELMETAL META (it's arguably slightly better in that meta due to being one of Melmetal's best defensive checks). That alone should be enough of an indicator that Aegislash should have no place in the complete SWSH OU.

Just a nitpick: Dynamax is a poor idea on Aegislash as it gets locked out of its Shield Forme during its entire duration (unless you want to Max Guard three turns in a row).

Apart from that... no way it can stay in OU. You may think "but Dark types are more viable!" except all but Hydreigon are physical attackers so Aegislash can King's Shield. No Chansey means Shadow Ball has even less opposition now. No Mandibuzz means Head Smash is unnecessary (although Corviknight is a tough cookie, but otherwise this ends in a stalemate because unlike Celesteela, it cannot use Fire Blast). And there may be other advantages I'm forgetting of.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I have to wonder if a Brave nature on Grimmsnarl plus Room Service would be a viable physical Trick Room sweeper. From what I can see, it's not in the best speed tier, and I'm not sure a Scarf is enough to help it.

That reminds me... will there be any reason to use Room Service when Iron Ball and Macho Brace exist?