M&M Mix and Mega

[VCrakeV]

Are there any solid defensive checks to Xurkitree? I keep running into it on the ladder, and it cleans house every time. I can't think of a Pokemon with haze that can reliably switch in on and check Xurkitree, and unaware users are not an option (no mega stone provides unaware, and the few Pokemon that get it are much too weak to check Xurkitree). Even max HP, max SpD Blissey can't wall Xurkitree (@ Latiosite), which gets to +6 in 2 turns.

 

[astralydia]

Are there any solid defensive checks to Xurkitree? I keep running into it on the ladder, and it cleans house every time. I can't think of a Pokemon with haze that can reliably switch in on and check Xurkitree, and unaware users are not an option (no mega stone provides unaware, and the few Pokemon that get it are much too weak to check Xurkitree). Even max HP, max SpD Blissey can't wall Xurkitree (@ Latiosite), which gets to +6 in 2 turns.

Trying to hard switch into Xurkitree is a bad thing to do, but generally it finds it very hard to switch in, get a Tail Glow, and delete a mon. Your best bets for pivots are mons like Altarianite Zygarde, SpD PDon / Mage, and Lunala. Outside of that, Xurkitree is highly prone to being revenge killed outside of webs, so strong attackers like Tapu Lele and Terrakion help considerably. Offensive pressure from the likes of nearly any mon + any form of priority will also help chip down Xurkitree to the point where it will most likely do only a kill in the real game. This is also why Ditto on stall teams helps out a lot with these sorts of matchups.

 

[Mark K]

Are there any solid defensive checks to Xurkitree? I keep running into it on the ladder, and it cleans house every time. I can't think of a Pokemon with haze that can reliably switch in on and check Xurkitree, and unaware users are not an option (no mega stone provides unaware, and the few Pokemon that get it are much too weak to check Xurkitree). Even max HP, max SpD Blissey can't wall Xurkitree (@ Latiosite), which gets to +6 in 2 turns.

Pretty much echo what chazm says above just wanted to add that if you REALLY need a hard switch to xurk you can slap a Sceptilite on any mon you see fit and it'll do the job

 

[astralydia]

Shuckle: An Analysis of its effect on the MnM Metagame​

For a long while now, Sticky Webs has been known to be a very effective playstyle, with a few players spamming it in the Seasonal tournaments to great effect. However, with OMPL finally settling into a balance metagame with defined threats, it’s time to discuss why there could be a ban case for Shuckle, as the most dominant Sticky Web setter.

• Hazard setting capability

Due to the heavy prominence of Magic Bounce from Sablenite, counterplay to hazards is quite different in Mix and Mega in comparison to other metagames. In Mix and Mega, Stealth Rock setters are quite hard to find as they need to be adequately offensive to pull off the role of a Stealth Rock setter, or be difficult to punish by Sablenite users, and very few Pokemon fulfil this role. For example: Defensive Primal Groudon in recent times has started to lose effectiveness as a Stealth Rock setter due to its weakness to the common Magic Bouncers in the metagame, Mandibuzz, Blissey and Slowbro. These three form a very tough to bypass core that no single hazard setter can avoid – with two exceptions: Shuckle and Toxapex, being viable with a Mold Breaker stone. Both of these, due to the unique way they set hazards and their difficulties at dealing damage, form their own unique playstyles that require careful building around them. However, due to how punishing these styles are on the metagame due to the lack of viable removal (for Toxapex, lacking Poison types), the threats these teams can support become significantly stronger and better at disrupting bulky teams, like the ones in the metagame right now.

• Counterplay

Again, due to the common usage of Sablenite, Taunt has dropped off significantly as a counterplay option to both Stall (easily breakable due to the insane power some breakers have in this metagame) and for hazard setters. The only common users of which are Terrakion, Zeraora and Noivern, the latter two primarily used for their great offensive matchup. Not much of the metagame outside of those two fast and Flying-type either, which can make it infuriating to prep for Shuckle due to the lack of those in the metagame, ever since the Landorus-Therian ban, which also helped Sticky Web playstyles greatly by providing an alternate Stealth Rock setter. In recent times, there have been new preps for these sorts of threats – Lunala has popped up as a generally solid threat and happens to be excellent at providing 50/50s against Terrakion on lead. As well as this, a very recent development of Manectite Xurkitree has also popped up which uses the two best Flying-type counterplay as somewhat setup fodder, even if it does mean giving it vulnerability to –ateSpeed along the line. If these don’t work, one could question – why not use a defensive playstyle to wall these threats? Unfortunately in Mix and Mega, the metagame almost entirely revolves around threats trying to overwhelm the lack of defensive targets in the metagame, making it very difficult to wall things for long without specific prep for some Pokemon (see: Palossand for Terrakion), and that makes it very easy for the user to stack multiple threats cornering these playstyles into corners where they are forced to compress, part of a reason why Manectite Magearna is so incredible right now. A niche form of counterplay in Ditto has also been employed by stall teams due to the incredible threat of the majority of the physical attackers in the metagame and how most of them aren’t improofed. However, Stresh’s sample webs team is one example of how this counterplay can be avoided by using slightly different threats like Red Orb Mew and Primal Kyogre to break through whilst still having them give some form of defensive utility.

• Adaptations made by webs

One of the issues with the Sticky Web playstyle is that it has the capability to control both of these matchups, with incredibly strong Pokemon with near exclusive offensive counterplay like Eruption Primal Groudon, Lucarionite Tapu Lele, and again, the mentioned Manectite Xurkitree. Other speed control options, like DIancite Tapu Lele and Darkrai, which can outspeed some of the slower threats even when slowed down by Sticky Web, are taken on by Pinsirite Magearna, a mon that has seen almost exclusive usage on Webs right now for its great defensive capabilities and ability to severely chip or remove a mon entirely with Explosion, whilst also threatening the capability to sweep. Often times this mon is also paired with Kartana, which means that standard counterplay to it often requires two checks instead of one check + a revenge killer – usually because of how their checks overlap. Recently this webs tactic however has been in decline for favour of more specially based strategies, although Pinsirite Magearna is still used very heavily on webs because of its other synergy with Lunala, potentially forcing Mandibuzz and other Dark-types out of the game, as well as using Blissey as setup fodder.

• Abusers that could be broken?

I think that this point isn’t too relevant right now because two Webs threats have already been banned for how influential they were both on and outside of webs in succession, but if we were to preserve webs, the threats that I’d think are broken are:

Primal Groudon – the early lead of the Webs team often gets a kill or two because of how difficult it is to revenge kill whilst Sticky Webs stay up. One could also argue its centralization outside of Webs is also what makes it broken, however it also falls into the same trap that both the last two have, in that it’s manageable outside of webs but is only buffed to a potential ban by it. Whilst I could definitely argue that the first two were also broken, Primal Groudon is not despite its versatility, and is only buffed by Sticky Webs to be difficult to deal with. In recent times, Sticky Web builds have started to go without Primal Groudon as well in favour of some other abusers and Red Orb breakers, which I’ll go into later

Xurkitree – not broken outside of Webs at all, but in Webs it’s probably the one thing that would be the reason why this call for a suspect is happening. Xurkitree not only is very tough to check after a boost but even uses common webs control as setup fodder. The issue with this is that Xurkitree warps the matchup so much that it becomes near impossible to beat Sticky Webs without a few designated mons that have a greater matchup against it, thus jarring the matchup against balance teams. So, this one is also off of the table.

Magearna – one could argue the utility this mon provides for Sticky Webs makes it difficult to deal with but it isn’t too hard to wall on Sticky Webs due to general adaptations against it, being Manectite Magearna and Pinsirite Zeraora, but it is worth noting how much it enables other mons to break through harder in the current metagame. Outside of Sticky Webs it recently has had a downfall but that isn’t mainly due to the effectiveness of it going down but more the effectiveness of Manectite sets being so high.

Lunala – this one has a legitimate argument for being banned outside of Webs for how constraining it is with its checks but rather I think that on Webs it’s not even that much harder to deal with and can potentially let in defoggers such as Mandibuzz get an emergency Defog off and make it harder to sweep. However, it still does claim multiple mons if this happens, and that is what potentially makes it broken. To me, banning Lunala is more of the other option when it comes to centralization as if Webs is banned there is much more opportunity for Lunala checks to fit on teams, as constraining as they are.

• Determining Shuckle’s healthiness on the metagame

So, it’s been noted that Shuckle is both constraining to the metagame because of the threats it amplifies and the radically different counterplay it has to the rest of the meta. Are there any other reasons to have Shuckle around? Well, apart from diversity of playstyle, I would argue no. Shuckle is a broken mon because of how it constrains balance and supports its other teammates, none of which are really broken outside of Webs. So, to me, it seems fairly obvious that Shuckle has no place in Mix and Mega and due to how unhealthy it is at constraining teams it should be banned.

• Could there be any other Sticky Web setters that are broken?

To put it bluntly, no. There is no other mon with both the bulk and movepool to pull off a successful Sticky Web set properly and not get wrecked by a lead such as any –atespeed user or a Sablenite mon if it isn’t running Mold Breaker.
I would also like to put other suspect ideas out there that don’t make the cut over Shuckle, but have rather alerted me as potentially unhealthy for Mix and Mega:

Terrakion

Terrakion has been seen consistently over the past two years defining physical counterplay and has been consistently adapting to the forms of checks that it has. Whilst this mon isn’t broken with the form of counterplay we have right now, it has been a major influencer on every playstyle as letting it in can severely impair a team’s defensive backbone as the checks that are used to deal with it like Altarianite Zygarde, Manectite Magearna + Lunala, and Arceus-Fairy are all heavily chipped by its STABs and with the correct play can even be removed from the game by a Taunt or predicted coverage move. It is also a fairly big reason why this next mon is centralizing at the moment:

Lunala

Lunala can be seen as unhealthy due to its radically different checks in the metagame and how it has somewhat forced the balance metagame because of the best checks being a pool of 4-5 mons that are heavily exploitable by the metagame’s big breakers (see: Terrakion / Zygarde). However, banning Shuckle would likely make the slot for this easier to fit despite the lacking amount of checks, and potentially open up more playstyles that can properly deal with it. To me, Lunala’s biggest issue is how it specifically has the matchup against these more offense inclined teams and the lack of resists that can be fit onto these teams, and lack of revenge killers. But, I do think that this is adapatable to, and thus it is a lower threat level than Shuckle and Terrakion imo.

Magearna

Probably won’t be a good idea to remove this mon now but it also has a similar effect on the metagame as Lunala does due to how it either forces an offensive playstyle that can avoid having to deal with it too much or forces Primal Groudon / Arceus-Ground as a voltblocker to avoid having the opponent lose too much momentum against its main and centralizing set in Manectite. Outside of this it also has some variations that can catch people off guard – Pinsirite is the main one of these which needs to be checked unlike the others due to how it can threaten a sweep easily on common counterplay options (like Arceus-Ground) and sometimes even set up on mons that could heavily dent offensive variants otherwise, like Altarianite Zygarde. However, it is far from unbeatable, and common resistances / one time checks can be employed on a team to deal with it. Offensive pressure is also a fine strategy against the other, more uncommon Calm Mind + Pain Split variants, like Latiasite and Cameruptite, which can get a matchup on these specific balance builds. Certainly not broken but something to think about having a healthy presence when it forces this sort of counterplay.

Primal Groudon

Definitely not a fun mon to remove for reasons above but also a big threat right now due to its Eruption set being very difficult to defensively deal with and the fact that Webs amplifies this to even be able to outspeed most speed control options. It can also use Rock Polish sets and other, lesser seen sets to catch people off guard and for these reasons it is often required that two or three Primal Groudon checks should be on a team and some offensive presence should be applied if an Eruption resist is not present. Centralizing due to this but in my opinion it isn’t exactly hard to fit a check if you’ve prepped for most of the metagame, it’s just finding the others that will fix up the matchup, just like with the other mons mentioned.

Zygarde

Altarianite Zygarde is a big factor on why offensive Dark types aren’t very good in the metagame and has been quite the healthy presence outside of this. But, if the alternate pathline was taken where Zygarde was banned this meta would have taken a much different turn and would be less centralized (obviously, doing this should also mean that Terrakion, by extension should be banned). Aside from this, its set duality can be quite constraining, especially with Lucarionite Zygarde’s tendency to act like a battering ram against most checks. Overall, just a small thing to think about with the meta in its current state but something to at least think ‘What if the meta took another turn?’

With that, I close my thoughts on the current metagame. I hope the last few months of this generation help to make Mix and Mega the most stable metagame it can be, as I’ve had fun all the way through. Rank Talonflame btw.

 

[New Omega]

How do you mix a pokemon with Mega Rayquaza? Do you give them dragon ascent or can you just not mix with Mega Ray?

 

[astralydia]

How do you mix a pokemon with Mega Rayquaza? Do you give them dragon ascent or can you just not mix with Mega Ray?

Give them Dragon Ascent, but the only Pokemon capable of doing that is Smeargle, which is largely unviable.

 

[Chloe]

Firstly, I'm sad to announce that Andyboy has stepped down from council. We thank you for all your hard work and commitment to the metagame over the last year, and we hope you'll stick around.

Secondly, we're suspecting that sticky web fiend: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mix-and-mega-suspect-10-shuckle.3653900/

 

[astralydia]

Usage stat analysis
​

https://pokepast.es/d0df677e398c2a36 - month 1 (comparative only)
https://pokepast.es/17e0331916425f92 - overall

As Mix and Mega’s OMPL run draws to a close, I wish to talk about the current usage stats. Month 1 usage stats are here in particular to explain the notably higher usage of Mandibuzz.

1 – The metagame is centralized around a packet of 7 mons
All of the top 7 mons in both month 1 and overall have a much higher usage rate than the rest of the crowd. I think this point where the lowest of them is 35% and the highest of those outside is 22% kinda shows how centralizing the metagame can be, with Arceus-Ground and Mandibuzz hanging on with their best niches in taking on threats like Primal Groudon and Lunala. Some players have taken this to blame on other people for not being very creative with their builds, but from my point of view the reason these Pokemon are as high as they are is because building without them can cause a dangerous matchup issue with one of the top 7, usually Lunala, Terrakion or Magearna from what I find.

2 – Zygarde’s winrate is very high, a turnaround from past tournaments
Zygarde’s winrate mainly comes from its solid offensive matchup and heavy role compression against big metagame threats like Terrakion in order to give teams a good chance against tanking its onslaught and keeping it at bay if it does get a switchin. Lucarionite on the other hand contributes to this winrate in a small dose but an important one as the times it was used it happened to be very effective in the game, with Jeran taking it another step further and using Block + Rest Lucarionite Zygarde to lure a Shuckle lead.
Zygarde’s usage rate also started to climb after the first month, which it mainly rose due to its capability in matchup against modern Sticky Web, which often excludes Kartana. It also goes hand in hand with less Magearna and Arceus usage overall.

3 – Mandibuzz’s usage started to fall off later on in OMPL, potentially implying less viability
Mandibuzz used to get amazing usage in the first month of OMPL, which was mainly due to very tight compression at dealing with Lunala, Kartana, and defensive Primal Groudon, which was especially relevant before Eruption variants became popular on balance. Now going into the last parts of the metagame, Mandibuzz has been falling off due to these adaptations and generally more variance in Lunala checks as Mandibuzz had become more exploited by mons like Zygarde and Terrakion. It’s still a strong mon but hasn’t been fitting as nicely on teams anymore.

4 – Magearna has an ‘abnormally’ high usage rate
Magearna got 75% and 69.35% in the first month and overall respectively. This is even higher than its past 60% final usage in OMPL VI, and this is primarily to do with the splashability of the Manectite set. Like with Primal Groudon, its usage dropped a little nearing the end of OMPL as teams started to look more towards creative methods of beating Sticky Web and a slight movement towards bulky offense, which Manectite Magearna isn’t as well inclined on. Its Pinsirite set got near exclusive usage on Sticky Web teams too, and that combined with the few fringe Cameruptites during the earlier weeks due to balance being incredibly common have made some players sceptical that it might be getting too much usage.

 

[in the hills]

Well since OMPL is pretty much over I thought I'd share a couple of sets I had tried over its course

Salazzle @ Red Orb
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Nasty Plot
The only set that made it onto one of andy's teams (but still never even came on the field lmao) Salazzle is definitely a knock off Naganadel, and for a while it's been seen as bad due to this fact. When we were looking for some niche picks for Webs that could threaten the current balance structure, Salazzle seemed like the perfect fit. With 4x resistance to Pixispeed and strong STABs boosted by Nasty Plot and/or Sun, Salazzle can tear through teams with ease. Salazzle does very much need Sticky Web support however, so depending on the Shuckle suspect it might be forced to start running Lucarionite or fall out of favor all together.

Calcs

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 351-414 (82.7 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 540-636 (121.6 - 143.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Groudon-Primal: 312-367 (77.4 - 91%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 345-407 (95.8 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 367-433 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 61-72 (22 - 25.9%) -- 3.8% chance to 4HKO

Victini @ Lucarionite
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psychic
- Blue Flare
- V-create
- Grass Knot
Next up is Lucarionite Victini. Originally, I had been trying to work with a specially based Victini to catch its checks off guard and had tried Cameruptite, but after testing with stresh we came up with this bad boy, who can outpace Lunala and Lucarionite Tapu Lele. This thing hits ridiculously hard, and there's very little that can tank it outside of Blue Orb Steels. We decided to go with Grass Knot over Bolt Strike as with max Special Attack you can actually 2HKO Arceus-Water/Rock and Slowbro, and the only thing Bolt Strike was hitting in the current meta anyways was Blue Orb Skarmory, which sees literally no usage.

Calcs

252 SpA Adaptability Victini Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Groudon-Primal: 204-241 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Victini Psychic vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Groudon-Primal: 190-224 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 238-280 (53.6 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Victini Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Rock: 218-258 (49 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Victini Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Adaptability Victini V-create vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 230-272 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Adaptability Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 330-390 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Victini Psychic vs. 208 HP / 28 SpD Zygarde: 194-230 (47.4 - 56.2%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Victini: 88-104 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Victini Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 200-236 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Victini: 181-214 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Adaptability Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 358-422 (127.4 - 150.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adaptability Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 169-199 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Gengar @ Lucarionite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Taunt / Focus Blast
- Destiny Bond
Anyone who knows me knows that Gengar is one of my favorite Pokemon, so I love trying to get it to work in any meta. Lucarionite Gengar hits really hard, and has a great speed tier of 132 that allows it to outpace Lucarionite Terrakion or slower. The main reason I included this set is because of how potent Destiny Bond mind games can be in this meta. Most teams don't want to lose any Pokemon because it performs more than one role on the team, and Gengar can really abuse some Pokemon having very few checks. For example, you could pair it with Lunala, and given that they mostly share the same checks (Mandibuzz, Gyara Pex, Tyranitar Blissey, etc) you can use Gengar to take out their check and open Lunala up to sweep. Taunt is good for Gyara Pex and other defensive Pokemon like defensive Arc that may want to try and avoid attacking Gengar, and is a great anti webs tool. Focus Blast is pretty niche on the other hand and only really lets Gengar hit Lucarionite Terrakion and Tyranitar.

Hydreigon @ Red Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Roost
- U-turn / Taunt / Defog
Red Orb Hydreigon is a pretty niche offensive check to Lunala that provides pivoting to teams and some strong STABs. It's not super fancy but it gets the job done pretty well and its main drawback is not being able to run another Red Orber on the team, and its inability to fully check Blue Orbers such as Calm Mind Kyogre-Primal. I don't really recommend Defog on it due to it losing to both Groudon-Primal and Terrakion but the option is always there. Max Speed allows it to outpace Lunala.

Calcs

252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 308-366 (74.2 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Lunala Menacing Moonraze Maelstrom vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 277-327 (85.2 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 187-222 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO

Anyways was another fun OMPL being in the support role for mnm again, but wish I'd had more time to build some heat this time around. Have a couple more sets not worth going deep into that I don't have a ton of use for but they're interesting to say the least.

Random sets

Zygarde-Complete @ Metronome
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Waves
- Rest

Volcarona @ Manectite
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Psychic / Hidden Power [Rock]
- Quiver Dance
- Roost

Muk-Alola @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Fire Punch
- Poison Fang
- Pursuit
- Pain Split

Avalugg @ Glalitite
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Return
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Earthquake

Doublade @ Aerodactylite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance

Jirachi @ Pinsirite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Slam
- Wish
- Stealth Rock
- Protect

Arceus-Electric @ Zap Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Earth Power
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Roserade @ Red Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Weather Ball
- Giga Drain
- Growth
- Spikes

Pheromosa @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

 

[Stall is coming]

Araquanid @ Ampharosite
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 172 Def / 80 SpD
Careful Nature
- Waterfall
- Toxic
- Magic Coat
- Sticky Web

to C or w.e

with shuckle gone, this mon will easily rise in usage the next couple of months, and for a good reason too. typing and bulk allows it to live a hit vs everything in the meta (apart from unhealthy explosion) and can counter taunts with mcoat and etc. toxic is there to annoy bulk, and waterfall so its not that useless vs some offensive shits. sure, it can be a set up bait to a few sub users, but its more than worth it for webs.

set can obv be modified (this mon got many good moves) and spreads if wanted. also saw some kid using gyara too so thats a possiblity if u dont want to be weak vs luna but then in exchange play the 33/33/33 game vs terraks

Liquidation isn't better with his speed?

 

[xavgb]

SAMPLE UPDATE​

As OMPL is now over and Shuckle is out of the metagame, I will be updating samples soon. If you want one of your teams to be considered, either submit it in this thread or directly to me on Smogon, Showdown, or Discord (stresh#0762). Please follow these ground rules:

- The submission must include an importable version of the team and a short description of how the team works. Ideally they should be submitted with http://pokepast.es as the description can then be included in the "notes" section, but pastebin links and hide tags are also acceptable. Replays can also be useful to show the team in action, whilst they aren't required you should still be submitting teams that you or someone else has had a lot of experience with.

- Please DO NOT submit Araquanid/Ribombee/insert replacement webs setter teams, especially if they have just switched Shuckle for the new setter - these teams are not yet settled in the metagame, and they can still be handled later if webs is still a sample-worthy playstyle.

- Don't submit teams with Pokemon that aren't on the Viability Rankings. Some exceptions can be made for Pokemon that will be getting ranked in the next VR update (see: Palossand). In general the Pokemon should also be using one of their listed stones. If you are unsure whether your team fits these requirements, just ask me on Showdown or Discord.

The council will go through all the submissions in about a week from now, which will allow new samples to go up before the Fall Seasonal starts.

 

[frogstomperful]

Are there any Mega Stones that can make Regice, Regirock, or Registeel, if not good, then at least somewhat passable? Was looking at Abomasite for Regice, Tyranitarite for Regirock, and Aggronite for Registeel, just because those combinations came to mind first.

 

[Stall is coming]

Are there any Mega Stones that can make Regice, Regirock, or Registeel, if not good, then at least somewhat passable? Was looking at Abomasite for Regice, Tyranitarite for Regirock, and Aggronite for Registeel, just because those combinations came to mind first.

I have the answer for regirock but not for regice or registeel:
This set of regirock seems legit (not great but not horrible):

Clear Body, then Aerilate
HP80 Atk 130 Def 220 SpA 60 SpD120 Spe70
EVs: 252Att 252Vit 4SpeDef
Jolly
Rock Polish
Explosion
Stone Edge
Earthquake/Return

Thanks to clear body, pinsirite regirock doesn't care about intimidation and after a rock polish, regirock outspeed everything (yes, even dancite darkrai )
Moreover, most of the priority are in the physical side, which is the quality of regirock.

Finally, thanks to his transformation of type, regirock is able to dodge ground attacks to place himself ...

 

[JTD783]

Are there any Mega Stones that can make Regice, Regirock, or Registeel, if not good, then at least somewhat passable? Was looking at Abomasite for Regice, Tyranitarite for Regirock, and Aggronite for Registeel, just because those combinations came to mind first.

Registeel is probably best off with Venusaurite, Latiasite, or Sablenite.

Regice is basically useless but I guess you could run Abomasite since Regice learns Aurora Veil. Still, you’re better off using that combination with Mew or even Glaceon than with Regice.

 

[NovaFish21]

This set has been working pretty well for me so far:

Araquanid @ Ampharosite
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Magic Coat
- Toxic
- Icy Wind

 

[Chloe]

I've been meaning to write this post for a while, but now that we've just completed a suspect test, and we're close to starting another seasonal I thought it was the optimal time to post it.

I'm stepping down from Mix and Mega leadership effective immediately. It's been a really fun ride, and truthfully I never expected to enjoy leading a metagame so much. This metagame has continually remained enjoyable for me throughout the two years I've led it. I just feel for a while now I haven't been qualified to really lead it, and as of recently I've also felt kind of annoyed at the criticism I've gotten from decisions I haven't made myself. Suspecting Landorus-Therian over Explosion wasn't my idea, nor was Shuckle over Sticky Web; but I'm glad those decisions were made because I believe they were the right ones in retrospect. The only blunder I really believe we made as a council while I was leader was not quickbanning Marshadow immediately, but that's not really a huge deal now.

I've really appreciated the support, however unwarranted it may have been since I took over this metagame. The first few months were relatively easy because of the state the metagame was left in prior to me being given it, and how helpful IT11, nv and Quantum Tesseract all were. I don't ever think I was the most qualified person to lead Mix and Mega, but being able to bounce ideas off / get opinions off those three really made it a lot easier. That's been the case with every council layout we've had since. I've tried to stay involved enough that I would be able to warrant a council spot myself if I were not leader but I can barely justify that anymore.

xavgb (stresh) will be the new leader of Mix and Mega leading into the rest of the generation and hopefully the new generation given the decisions of OM leadership. I trust stresh will do an excellent job as leader as he is completely overqualified . The council will remain the same with In The Hills and Chazm. I'll still be involved with the meta to a small degree, playing seasonals and tournaments, but I don't trust my metagame knowledge or involvement enough to be able to justify leading it or being involved in tiering decisions.

I hope that I've led the metagame well, and that the decisions we've made under my leadership have been considered sensical. I'm looking forward to seeing how stresh and the remainder of the council will progress the meta in the coming months. Thank you for being an amazing community!

edit: oh also im stupid and forgot this part but ty to ti and scp for giving me the opportunity i hope i havent let you down

 

[xavgb]

Samples are now updated! Though we have downsized in terms of the number of teams, we will still be looking to add teams to samples in the coming weeks, especially with Fall Seasonals and OMWC giving good tour representation to develop a clearer picture of the post-Shuckle metagame.

SAMPLE TEAMS

Rules for Posting:

• Be sure to test the team you post in tournaments and on the ladder. This isn't an absolute rule, but teams should have reached at least top 20 in the ladder, and a GXE of 70+ shouldn't be too much to ask for.
• Be sure this team is easy to pick up on and newer players can still use it and learn. Your team could be amazing, the best ever, but if it's too hard to play with unless you're experienced, it's not going to be allowed.
• Posting replays also will help people see how to play with your team (not required, but is recommended.)
• Follow the proper format when posting. I'll fix minor errors, but don't make me completely rewrite it.

Format for posting:

Playstyle (offense, stall, etc)
Team export (in hide tags)
Short description on how the team works.


Sample Teams:

-Zygarde + Entei Bulky Offense by Chazm


-Tapu Koko Bulky Offense by xavgb


-Mamoswine Offense by xavgb and Catalystic


-Blissey Balance by In The Hills


-Palossand Stall by Pigeons

On another note, I've updated the set compendium again to be more up to date with the current metagame, this can be found here. I would also like to compile a list of semi-usable sets that aren't featured on the viability rankings in a separate paste, so expect to see that sometime soon.

 

[in the hills]

Now that samples are updated an we've cooled down from OMPL a good bit, it's time to bring back an old resource from its very extended hiatus:

Mix and Mega Teambuilding Competition
Week 4?: Excadrill

Excadrill is an interesting Pokemon in this metagame that doesn't see very much usage despite having some decent niches. It can perform well as an offensive or defensive Stealth Rock user with Focus Sash or Latiasite respectively, with both sets being able to abuse its Mold Breaker in base form to get off Stealth Rock or Toxic on Sablenite Pokemon such as Mandibuzz while keeping hazards off its side with Rapid Spin. Glalitite is another good option for a strong breaker that has access to Refrigerate Rapid Spin. This week's Pokemon has a pretty wide range of builds it can fit on so I'm excited to see what teams you come up with, whether it's some Sash Excadrill HO or Lati Exca Bulky Offense or anything else!

Example Sets

Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Tomb

Excadrill @ Glalitite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Return
- Rapid Spin
- Swords Dance

Excadrill @ Latiasite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Def / 156 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic
- Earthquake

​

Rules

• You have 1 week to create a team and explain why it is the best. A good team will preferably have been tested and while replays are no required, they are recommended.
• Posting replays against unviable teams or people who clearly have no experience in Mix and Mega will hurt your team's case more than help it, so make sure to only post quality replays.
• You will post your team with accompanying descriptions of how it works. This is not a full RMT but you should at least explain what the team does in a paragraph or so.
• BUILD YOUR OWN TEAMS!!! I hope I never would need to actually enforce this rule but I guess it needs to be said.
• Winners will be chosen by me/maybe some others on the council, and winners will be added to the Hall of Fame! Some weeks may have more than one winner if I feel that there are multiple very solid teams.
• Don't bash other people's submissions, this is a competitive project but it is meant to be fun. Constructive criticism is allowed but needless insults aren't permitted.
• On that note, be sure to have fun with this!! Creativity is encouraged but make sure your team is viable and handles the metagame properly

Hall of Fame

Week 1: Terrakion Winner: Eien
Week 2: Tapus Winner: skysolo14
Week 3: Volcarona Winner: skysolo14

 

[Gman]

Hello everybody :)
Last time I participated in this amazing initiative I was ridiculed on discord behind my back (ty In The Hills for defending me ) ! But now, almost a year later, things have changed! Indeed, I am on discord too, now, and I will see all of the ridiculing first hand, so don't hold back :D

The team is this one.

Basically, it's a Balance team because I can't build anything else that is centered around Latiasite Excadrill. This Pokemon is the rocker of choice, and can threaten many Sablenite leads thanks to its pre-mega ability Mold Breaker . Deciding when to Mega-Evolve is crucial, you should definitely not be rash about it if the opponent's Sablenite user and Defogger are still healthy. Excadrill can deal some damage to Defensive Pdon, but to a hard price, since it falls to any fire move from that beast.
Other Pokemon that Excadrill checks: Necrozma DM, Tapu Lele (in a pinch, and not all sets), Gyaradosite Toxapex (much wow), Arceus Fairy, Arceus Ground, some Magearna versions.
It can also withstand attacks from Landorus-I and Pinsirite Zeraora, but it fails to do anything more than spreading Toxic in return.

Seen as Excadrill can't stomach Fire-type moves, Arceus-Water offers a safe switch-in to Ho-Oh, Entei, and EruPdon, which it speed-creeps. The two attacks serve as a means to threaten the Fire-type Pokemon, so I decided to go with Will-O-Wisp to cripple all other physical attackers (e.g. PinsMage, PinsZera, Terrakion, Kartana, Golisopod), although this may come at a heavy toll, HP-Wise.

I was now weak on the special side of the spectrum, so MnM's second best birb came to the rescue because I can't build without it, offering a Lunala check that can also check Kartana in a pinch, and more hazard control (I wouldn't run a balance with only one spinner). Level 99 is a gimmick, but one some may really enjoy in the mirror Mandi-mu that happens from time to time. It's definitely discretional, though, since some rolls become less favorable, evidently.

With solid hazard control and Excadrill pressuring Mandibuzz, Lunala seemed like a logical option. It glues the team together, offering a blanket check to most threats, and it threatens Altarianite Zygarde which could easily overwhelm its teammates.

Darkrai and Terrakion now became huge problems for the team, so I wanted to revenge-kill both. I decided to go with Entei over Zygarde to capitalize on the hazard controlling options the team has, and to more easily get through Manectite Magearna. I generally never run Howl on Altarianite Entei as I never expect it to sweep and I love Toxic to punish Pdon, but in this case my defensive core has a sufficiently solid Pdon matchup, so I decided to try it.

Last is Diarak, it offers solid speed control (revenge-killing Kartana, Pinsirite Zeraora, and other Terrakion sets), and can break through Blissey for Lunala. Substitute is decent in this intimidating meta (and for the situational Ditto), but don't expect this to 6-0 because of it.

Though I'm definitely not on the banwagon, Terrakion is probably the most dangerous threat to this team: Lucarionite has no real switch-in, and Diancite has only one revenge-killer.


Some replays:
Replay 1 : Close battle, in which Excadrill resiliently pressures the opposing team with status and rocks. Bonus Replay.
Replay 2 : Excadrill drops to a crit, but manages to pressure the opposing defensive core with its rocks, without needing to scout for Magic Bounce stones.
Replay 3 : Excadrill and its teammates (a bit too many, due to me being dumdum) manage to pressure Blissey and to KO it, letting Lunala break a way into the team.
Sorry these don't showcase much, I do have more successful replays, but victories vs Monotype Rock, Rotom-Fan + Shiinotic, or Vespiqueen + Gastrodon hardly feel like good publicity.

As always, if you don't want this team to win, I encourage you to submit your own :3
Have a great Gen 7 conclusion, everyone!!

 

[in the hills]

thank you gman for the great team!! but come on guys post some more teams :(
https://pokepast.es/60a4b3839ea47fdb
gonna throw my team in to get the ball rolling for you all. the idea was to start with Lati Excadrill's ability to run Stealth Rock+Rapid Spin to free up a lot of moveslots on other members of the team. the rest of the team is a pretty basic bulky offense, but in hindsight Arceus-Fairy probably would appreciate a Defog support set because Terrakion can keep Stealth Rock up against this team really easily as is. Kartana can be pretty devastating to the team as well as it can sweep pretty easily if Stealth Rocks are up.

Diancite Terrakion is for speed control, and Taunt is a tool that doesn't see nearly as much usage on Terrak's these days (especially not on Diancite, who usually run Stealth Rock or even Substitute), but is really helpful in breaking stuff like Palossand or Arceus.

CM Refresh Arceus-Fairy is a great pick in the current metagame, as Magearna typically don't run Heart Swap anymore. Primal Groudon can be a concern for it however given that Swords Dance sets are on the rise again, but the rest of the team handles pdon decently.

Sablenite Mandibuzz is pretty standard, with Toxic over Defog to allow it to properly check Calm Mind Arceus-Ground while giving it another way to beat Lunala.

Rock Polish Groudon-Primal is a fun pick in this metagame, and the set is pretty standard in that sense. I opted for Earth Power over Precipice Blades because I find it stronger in this meta where Intimidate is more common and opposing Groudon typically can tank a PBlades. HP Ice is pretty niche these days honestly with less Luc Zyg and Noivern or other 4x weak Pokemon, but it's still a nice tool to have and honestly other options probably wouldn't be too great.

Lunala again is standard, and forms a nice breaking core with Terrakion as everyone knows. One good thing to note is that Excadrill is pretty good at using Toxic on Mandibuzz who are trying to keep rocks off the field, which makes Lunala's job setting up a lot easier.

EDIT: Forgot replays lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-986654116 vs QT
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-987473254 TI vs TheJ3stPenguin
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-984325779 joke replay vs pidgestall dear god it's awful dont watch

other than that Lati Excadrill is pretty neat and was something I'd never really tried building with before so this build was really refreshing this late in the gen, and I hope others have had fun trying out some new stuff. I'll probably wait for a few more submissions to close this unless we just don't get any, but again please post your teams guys I love seeing that you guys enjoy these challenges

 

[isabela200]

i'm have 2 teams for sample

https://pokepast.es/c17513dbf557d0f1 this is first team,is an TR team,is team based in stakataka sweep,but this set is broken,heracronite,for sweep,anst TR setters e one sr setter

https://pokepast.es/54a2f8bc694a3e95 and is another team,is a basic HO,lele+hoopa for buff zen headbut hoopa,pdon for big threath,mag,for speed control with TR setter,volcarona alakazite for counter and pdon,kyogre,necrozma an other mons,and zygarde altarianite,is the other sweeper on team

 

[Gman]

On this last day of Gen 7, I wanted to publish my whole Mix and Mega builder. Here it is. No, there is probably no hidden gem. Yes, I do use Mandibuzz a lot. Yes, there are still Lando-T teams.

In any case,
This is probably not the place to do this, but more off-topic posts have definitely been posted on this thread, so I'm sure I'll be fine.
This is not a goodbye post, because I'll definitely be droning about and checking in, especially with OMWC still going on, but I think it's time for me to cut back on the daily time I spend on Pokémon. So, while I'll still be around, I wanted to say a few words to some of you.

xavgb : There aren't enough words I can say to thank you for what you did for this meta-game and especially for my enjoyment of it. You've helped me so many times, and in so many ways, I won't even go into it. You're such an amazing player that even simply testing with you for OMPL got me to improve exponentially! You've always been there when I needed help building in OML, I owe a huge share of my success there to you.
And you've always been so kind, so humorous, so supporting. Thank you a million times!

Andyboy : One of the nicest users out there, a down-to-earth, empathic, relaxed and super-fun guy, whom I only called "gmfc" because he's definitely taking one of my "Nicest users" nominations in the next Smogon Awards. Playing with you is always a pleasure, chatting with you even more so! I just hope one day you'll come visit me just like you did with Toastie.

Chazm : You're very first person who ever helped me build, you've always tried to help others do better! This meta-game and my own Smogon experience wouldn't have been the same without you. I really admire how far you've come as a person! I'm sure you'll be able to overcome any curveball that comes your way, and I'll always be rooting for you!

In The Hills : You're a super cool user who got hated on way too much at some point for absolutely no reason. You've defended me countless times (from mean users that steal images, for example ), and I never thanked you enough for that! Also thank you for making me embark in that Mandi adventure that deeply changed me as a person :3

SectoniaServant : You showered me with appreciation and affection, and defended me behind my back. I really enjoyed your presence in the community, I think you bring enormous positive energy to it! Never stop believing in Arceus-Ice!

TheCoastsOfToast : My own personal cheerleader and bassoonist, the wittiest guy on this site, the man, the legend, Toastie. Beating you in HC is always a pleasure. Losing to you, on the other hand, is unbearable, because you're such a sore winner and you're incredibly rude, always haxing me and predicting my moves and actually reading what your mons abilities are. How dare you be better than me??

Marsopa Trump & Test Rex : Gracias por desearme feliz cumple :3 Eres el mejor user de España! Sigue siendo tan simpático y amable!

Matiss98 : Tu ne vas pas probablement pas me lire ici, mais tu me manques. J'espère pouvoir concrétiser mes flirts, le moment venu <3

Funbot28 and regirock : Thanks again for drafting me, last OMPL. I had an amazing time thanks to you two. Alone, each one of you is extremely nice, and together, you simply were the best managers ever, in my eyes, and we should have won!

Sylveon. : Divine player. Supremely intelligent. Has the cutest dog. And yet, being nice is still geerat's best quality!

LaBalladeDesCieux et Lancer Fr : On a partagé des mois en tournois ensemble cette année, merci de votre soutien lors de l'OML et de la LOM! Vous êtes très talentueux et archi-sympas!

Chloe : Thanks for running MnM for a really long time and always giving it your best! Thanks for not caving to the Ban Explosion and, even worse imho, Ban Sticky Web arguments! Thanks for being nice to me through and through!

MetaRiolu7 : Always fun playing with you :3 You're a really nice user who deserves more recognition competitively and otherwise!

Lasen : Thanks for those fun calls, for those Skribble adrenaline rushes, and for entertaining the community whenever you could :)

Terracotta e MultiAmmiratore : Avere qualche altro giocatore italiano con cui giocare qualche friendly di questo meta è stato più che gradito! Siete entrambi dei giocatori eccellenti e originali nella costruzione dei vostri team! Spero che continuerete a farvi valere :)

GL Volkner : BEST

Mark K : Dude, it's impossible to tag you ^^ You're a really good player and builder, and overall very nice user! I'm glad I got to see you in action during omwc!!

NovaFish21 : One of the nicest players one can face on the MnM ladder, with cool, original teams, and always a nice word to say!

TectonicDestroyer : When you set your mind on something, you always try your best to accomplish it, and that's really admirable! I'm sure MixandMega will be just an example of this!

vivalospride : You're a really cool guy. You really should declare your love to Andyboy, tho, it's become too obvious!

Who knows where this amazing meta will end up in the next few weeks? It probably deserves a "Thank you" too. So thank you, Mix and Mega, for your terrifying low and mid ladder, for Sablenite Mandibuzz, for Red Orb Tornadus-T, for RP Altarianite Landorus-T, for having attracted so many nice users, and for being essentially the best meta I could wish for!

 

[in the hills]

 

[NovaFish21]

rip mnm

 

[JTD783]

alright time for mix n gigantamax

cool meta, hopefully it will translate to gen 8 in some way