M&M Mix and Mega

Cress was almost banned in the beginning of SM and it's UR now so clearly what a Pokemon has done way in the past means absolutely nothing to it's current viability in the metagame. Can we stop with the shitposts now thanks.
but that was a result of poor leadership :pikuh: and cress did nothing but beat bad players, not win actual tours like bliss
dunno why u would compare this gen with last gen to indicate that bliss isnt good since that is the only argument for cress anyway, also ur talking about events that happened years ago when bliss has won tours 2 years in a row during gen 7. cress being almost banned and now UR doesnt mean anything, bliss is just better and someone delusional thought cress was actually good. i really hope that was a joke
 
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heya. so i've been reading through the threads and playing the tier a bit... one of my favorite pokes to mess with is cresselia. from what i understand it avoided being banned and i guess, it's rarely used in the tier? the usage isnt very great despite the lack of darks, though there's a prominence in steels and fires.

i know one set is sablenite, but has anyone tried audinite? (and no, i'm not joking.) reason why is if anyone wants different ways to face darks - a lot of them seem to be slower than cress itself, even w/o investment- you can get the +fairy type and even better defensive bulk. just sub, calm mind, and go ham from there. but i'm curious to see if anyone's tried anything with it. probably seems very laughable but i guess, for me it's worked.

and another question -- does audinite actually work well on anything besides xurk? i dont really fancy that particular poke much (and its use seems to be very low too, from what i see) so ive been trying to find other options that can actually benefit from it.
 

Chazm

yeet
is a Pre-Contributor
heya. so i've been reading through the threads and playing the tier a bit... one of my favorite pokes to mess with is cresselia. from what i understand it avoided being banned and i guess, it's rarely used in the tier? the usage isnt very great despite the lack of darks, though there's a prominence in steels and fires.

i know one set is sablenite, but has anyone tried audinite? (and no, i'm not joking.) reason why is if anyone wants different ways to face darks - a lot of them seem to be slower than cress itself, even w/o investment- you can get the +fairy type and even better defensive bulk. just sub, calm mind, and go ham from there. but i'm curious to see if anyone's tried anything with it. probably seems very laughable but i guess, for me it's worked.

and another question -- does audinite actually work well on anything besides xurk? i dont really fancy that particular poke much (and its use seems to be very low too, from what i see) so ive been trying to find other options that can actually benefit from it.
I did try Audinite, but the result was that it usually just got toxiced, stalled to death by a steel, blocked recovery by Primal Kyogre, or set up on by a steel or fire, particularly Magearna, as it didn't really care about what I used to fix the previous problems, which was giving it dual status. Aud Cress isn't actually that much more bulky than Arceus-Fairy, and so Primal Groudon can break its sub happily. Going without recovery can also reduce Cresselia's capability of checking Zygarde, one of its main niches.

TL;DR passivity, 8 PP recovery, and general incapability to break the common steels in the metagame makes Cresselia just plain bad usually.

EDIT: If you're playing on ladder, you usually don't see teams at a higher level at all, which is probably why Cress has worked for you.
 

Chloe

is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Moderator
Unfortunately, Chazm has decided to step down from council due to real life commitments. =[ We appreciate all your hard work and energy regarding the metagame and especially your commitment to improving resources and helping uncover new sets. It will be difficult to find anyone to ever fill your shoes. Good luck in life and your future endeavours!
 
Does the Orb Clause indicate that you can have only one Blue Orb per team? Because I recently battled someone that had a Kyogre-Primal and Blue Orb Golisopod in their team.
 
This thread's quiet. Too quiet. Time to revitilize it with some nice discussion.
Regarding the Cress discussion from earlier, I'm not too sure if I'd simply throw away the old experiences the old leadership had. Sure, they made bad decisions, and we know now that Cress (and probably Manaphy, we're pretty sure) aren't close to banworthy, but the strengths that brought them there still exist. Bliss is definitely in a better place than Cress, yes... but being completely written off for the rest of time is entirely the wrong way to go about that. Which brings me into the bulk of my post.

Mimikyu @ Lopunnite
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Drain Punch
- Substitute

Yes, Mimikyu. If there's one thing I'd have to call a sleeper hit in general, it's Mimikyu. Before you all laugh me out of the thread for that, allow me to explain myself... The previous iterations of Mimikyu were good. Not for the ability to hurt things (though it was okay at that, too), but as a back bone to not only halt sweeps, but getting a free turn on most threats to status them however it's outfitted. That niche is actually quite powerful.

This one fills an entirely different niche, however. I was looking for Ghosts with Fighting moves. I then looked at the Drain Punch directory. Golurk came up.... and also Mimikyu. And that's when this set was brewed. This set was what the original Mimikyu was aiming to be in terms of offensive presence: it still outpaces Arceus formes, but is far more annoying for them to deal with, as if it gets set up with one SD (and it will in the 1v1) , Drain Punch does a little less than half to neutral Arceus formes, and does only a bit less than that to Pdon, both of which heal Mimikyu by a substantial amount. And that's a far cry from the weak blows Mimikyu is typically known for around here while still outpacing Arceus and Blastoisinite Darkrai. Without setup, it's still a bit weak, but with the combination of Substitute stuffing attempts to burn or poison and Disguise allowing it to tank a hit that may otherwise blow a hole in something more vital, it's not something to be sneezed at. ...And Mimikyu always lost to Extreme Speed, so the perfect neutral coverage does not come with too much downside. (EDIT: it only loses to Extreme Speed if it's chipped by 15 or more percent health, so this point's not completely correct) (Also, Shadow Sneak is basically to creep other forms of priority, which besides Extreme Speed, are fairly rare, so the move doesn't actually serve too much of a main purpose for Mimikyu.)

Tapu Koko @ Lucarionite
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nature's Madness/Grass Knot
- U-turn/Volt Switch

I was going to dedicate this next section to talking about Milotic... until I lost to a Tapu Koko lead on preview. (I have since recitfied this mistake) And then I thought... maybe Tapu Koko is actually still fine. And so I hit the calcs, and what do you know, I came upon this:
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 178-210 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yep, Tapu Koko can easily tank that with zero bulk. And in return....
252+ SpA Adaptability Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 380-448 (90.4 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
(Timid will not OHKO, and has a 75% chance of OHKOing min bulk Zygarde; Modest has a clean OHKO on fast variations)
Needless to say, Zygarde has a bad time. And this is the main thing that Tapu Koko has over Zeraora; answering Zygarde pretty cleanly. It's obviously not a counter, but a very aggressive check. And a 152 Speed tier is still very good for revenge killing most of the tier if weakened enough; Electric Terrain Thunderbolt still hurts. I'm definitely missing some things on Tapu Koko, but it'll be enough to ignite some discussion here again.
 
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Why the heck have I not been posting usage stats for the recent months? I don't know, but I'm providing some anyways, if any of you want to utilize them in some internet points here or the suspect thread or just in the OM room. I just like this stuff.

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-02/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt (Basic stats)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-02/moveset/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt (Moveset data)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-02/metagame/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt (Team information)
 

Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
So now that Lando is gone, any thoughts on how the meta is settling?
With offense losing one of the best and most reliable hazard setters, I think one could assume that there may be a surge of presence of more balance / bulky offensive teams as Lando-T was one of the biggest prohibitors of that type of style due to the threat of SD + amazing dual STAB + Boom. However, from what I have played so far I still feel that offense is the best playstyle in the metagame due to threats such as Kartana, Lunala, Terrakion, and even rising threats like Metagross and Noivern having a choke on the metagame.

One thing I would like to note however is that stall teams definitely have more liberty when it comes to physical walls as Lando-T basically necessitated the use of Skarmory (even tho Skarm still has value in checking stuff like Ho-Oh and Primal Groudon with a Blue Orb), but now stuff like Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Giratina and even GroundCeus could be used instead to better handle the tier's biggest physical threats being Kart and Terrakion mainly.

I still feel boom will have some presence with mons like Magearna, Metagross, and more niche stuff like Genesect and Cloyster being able to abuse it, but the removal of the best Explosion user definitely helps a lot in the teambuilding phase.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Gotta say, playing around on the ladder post Lando-T ban has been a real blast. I have praise the leadership on seeing the strain Lando-T put on teambuilding. Pre-suspect I probably would've voted no ban, but after considering points brought up in this thread and making an extra effort to consider how Landorus-T effects teambuilding, especially for balance, I'm certain the right call was made.

I took a look at the suspect archieve and noticed Deoxys-S was suspected with a slim majority (65%). Apparently this was because of abusing Pidgeotite with, I assume, Zap Cannon/Thunder, Blizzard, Hazards and Hypnosis. Totally agree with that. However, a month later Pidgeotite was banned too. I was wondering if anyone in the community, and if I'm lucky, the council could explain their reasoning behind not unbanning Deoxys-S in the wake of its strongest set being scourged from the meta.

It's certainly still viable as the lead set almost gurantees hazards, but that's certainly not broken as suicide leads has the opportunity cost of forgoing an entire team slot in exchange for nearly guranteed hazards (Rapid spinners and Banettite-Taunters have a decent shot of removing rocks and taking Deo-S down). Even then Pdon is one of the best rockers in the metagame too since it doesnt really need mold breaker to go through magic bouncers thanks to its sheer power.

With its best set gone, and being banned with a slim majority, would the council consider a quick-unban?
 
Gotta say, playing around on the ladder post Lando-T ban has been a real blast. I have praise the leadership on seeing the strain Lando-T put on teambuilding. Pre-suspect I probably would've voted no ban, but after considering points brought up in this thread and making an extra effort to consider how Landorus-T effects teambuilding, especially for balance, I'm certain the right call was made.

I took a look at the suspect archieve and noticed Deoxys-S was suspected with a slim majority (65%). Apparently this was because of abusing Pidgeotite with, I assume, Zap Cannon/Thunder, Blizzard, Hazards and Hypnosis. Totally agree with that. However, a month later Pidgeotite was banned too. I was wondering if anyone in the community, and if I'm lucky, the council could explain their reasoning behind not unbanning Deoxys-S in the wake of its strongest set being scourged from the meta.

It's certainly still viable as the lead set almost gurantees hazards, but that's certainly not broken as suicide leads has the opportunity cost of forgoing an entire team slot in exchange for nearly guranteed hazards (Rapid spinners and Banettite-Taunters have a decent shot of removing rocks and taking Deo-S down). Even then Pdon is one of the best rockers in the metagame too since it doesnt really need mold breaker to go through magic bouncers thanks to its sheer power.

With its best set gone, and being banned with a slim majority, would the council consider a quick-unban?
If u ask me, it's gyara set was just as big of a problem as it's pidg one. Lot of people over look it but the fact that it can always get rocks down while not allowing ur opponent to get theirs and even defog is quite broken. Also since gyara gives it mbreaker, it will have more freedom with its movepool, so adding in an attacking move or even mirror coat for sab mage (which most people believed to be a good answer for it) will be annoying too. It certainly got worse after the pidg ban, but it will still have access to sd and np for other sets, incase the user wanna bait gyara or w/e for an easy kill.
 
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I can explain things on that front a little bit.

There were two major problems with Deoxys-S: the Pidgeotite set and the Gyaradosite set. The Pidgeotite set did abuse Zap Cannon + Blizzard, but not Hypnosis. It instead boosted up with Nasty Plot to take an incredibly hefty chunk out of teams. At the time, most people considered this Deoxys-S's strongest role, but I was (and still am not) one of those people. The Gyaradosite set, on the other hand, was a hyper brutal lead that had Stealth Rocks, Spikes, Taunt, among a host of other very nasty lead moves. While it does not have power that is held by Landorus and Pdon (though it's no slouch itself if it wants to hurt things with Psycho Boost), it more than makes up with it because of its sheer speed.

The latter set was causing serious issues with making hazards too reliable. At the very least, there would need to be a suspect, but I doubt too many people are excited to let it get Mega Stones back...
 
Wasn't there a thread where people would post teams and mods would help fix them for you based on what you wanted? Because I remember using it before but I cannot find it.
 

xavgb

EVs: 20 HP / 20 Def / 240 SpA / 116 SpD / 112 Spe
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Gotta say, playing around on the ladder post Lando-T ban has been a real blast. I have praise the leadership on seeing the strain Lando-T put on teambuilding. Pre-suspect I probably would've voted no ban, but after considering points brought up in this thread and making an extra effort to consider how Landorus-T effects teambuilding, especially for balance, I'm certain the right call was made.

I took a look at the suspect archieve and noticed Deoxys-S was suspected with a slim majority (65%). Apparently this was because of abusing Pidgeotite with, I assume, Zap Cannon/Thunder, Blizzard, Hazards and Hypnosis. Totally agree with that. However, a month later Pidgeotite was banned too. I was wondering if anyone in the community, and if I'm lucky, the council could explain their reasoning behind not unbanning Deoxys-S in the wake of its strongest set being scourged from the meta.

It's certainly still viable as the lead set almost gurantees hazards, but that's certainly not broken as suicide leads has the opportunity cost of forgoing an entire team slot in exchange for nearly guranteed hazards (Rapid spinners and Banettite-Taunters have a decent shot of removing rocks and taking Deo-S down). Even then Pdon is one of the best rockers in the metagame too since it doesnt really need mold breaker to go through magic bouncers thanks to its sheer power.

With its best set gone, and being banned with a slim majority, would the council consider a quick-unban?
Sorry for being late to this, but I kinda forgot to put something on the thread after the discussion we had later that night on showdown. This was something that had also been discussed on the mnm cord following the pidgeotite ban, reaching the consensus that the meta was simply better off without a lead as effective as Deo-s. We all know that Deo-S is capable of guaranteeing at least one hazard in practically any matchup, so I won't speak much of it, but instead I'll give my own thoughts on why we shouldn't reintroduce Deo-S.

1. Deo-S can set two hazards fairly easily against bulkier builds

The combination of Mold Breaker, Taunt, and decent bulk lead to Deo-S being able to claim two hazards against nearly any bulky team. This is very dangerous as it amplifies the effectiveness of every strong offensive threat in the meta, whilst making it very hard to actually use mons that would otherwise be counters against the threats they're supposed to beat. For example, take the situation of Sablenite Buzzwole switching into Metagrossite Kartana; normally it would answer Kartana pretty comfortably, taking around 60 percent from a boosted Smart Strike and retaliating with an OHKO from Superpower. However, when Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes are up this becomes much more strained, as one successful double switch from the Kartana user will leave the Buzzwole forced out at 75 percent and then coming back in at 50 percent, which is in range of +2 Smart Strike. Mons that fit well on offense builds for other reasons such as being fast and resisting atespeed, or being fairly bulky, are now also able to break down bulky cores with ease, making teambuilding much easier for the HO user and much more difficult for anyone trying to defensively check mons.

2. Deo-S is the only lead in the meta without large drawbacks when trying to get rocks up (outside of being a suicide lead)

Thanks to Deo-S' fantastic speed tier, it's able to dodge Taunt unlike other leads such as Shuckle and Deo-D. The closest replacement to Deo-S' ability to get up Stealth Rock and Spikes sometimes is Deo-D, which has notable drawbacks in speed tier, leading to an easier time taunting it and also making it easy to set up on (especially when running magic coat in an attempt to deal with the first problem). Teams featuring Deo-D have to go out of their way to account for this, which decreases the effectiveness of supporting mons and makes it harder to use them successfully. Once again this points to Deo-S having more freedom in the builder whilst also unlocking the potential of dangerous offensive threats.

3. Deo-S could get up two hazards against nearly any build with the correct 50/50 predictions

This argument falls more on the uncompetitive side, which I'm normally not a fan of arguing, but as i've explained in the first two points Deo-S is friendly enough to teambuilding to make this is worth considering. One of the things I noticed myself when playing with Deo-S HO builds in the meta was that if Deo-S was delayed a couple turns it could put itself in a matchup where it can live a hit and therefore get two hazards. Additionally, when fighting against Deo-S builds you're playing a guessing game before turn 1, as there's a limited amount of threats that can stop Deo-S getting two hazards and therefore there's pretty much always a counter-lead to the counter-lead (for lack of a better way to say this). Normally, the ability for an HO lead to do this would be counteracted by the fact that HO generally doesn't possess the bulk to make those maneuvers early game - it comes at a cost of momentum that isn't worth it for the playstyle. However, M&M as a metagame has always been home to HO picks with a surprising amount of defensive utility, and given that there's only a few mons that can limit Deo-S to one hazard in the first place, it's not too much to ask to find a switchin for them. For example, Groudon-Primal + Kartana covers Altarianite espeeders and Sablenite Magearna, whilst providing two cleaners and still maintaining pressure on Defoggers. On top of this, M&M has access to other bulky picks such as Pinsirite Magearna, Lunala and to an extent Altarianite Zygarde. It's not uncommon for Deo-S to manage two hazards without much cost other than the one mon trade, and imo whenever it does get that return, it's worth it, as even in the event that they get removed, at this level of power in the metagame that almost always involves sacrificing the Defogger anyway.


Also to address a couple other things - I really don't think much can be drawn from the direction of discussion in the Deo-S suspect test; the discussion was always likely to be geared towards Pidgeotite primarily, since it had the capability to sweep teams itself, as well as the ever so important hax element that most people dislike (Zap Cannon was also a topic brought up in that thread). Banettite as a stone is already barely relevant, and Banettite taunters just arent a concept that would work well in any area other than counter-leading Deo-S. A similar thing applies to Rapid Spinners, although there is at least one viable user in Excadrill (I suppose Cloyster exists, but it's also destroyed by Psycho Boost).

TLDR; M&M has a bunch of threats that could easily be tipped over the edge when placed on Gyara Deo-S HO teams, and in return Deo-S' contributions to the metagame boil down to removing skill elements in both teambuilding and playing in favour of matchup luck and 50/50s. For this reason I think that reintroducing Deo-S to the metagame is a bad idea.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
(If u think reintroducing deo-s is bad why can't we at least hold a suspect we don't have to quick unban it)
Anyways, with this gen coming to a close it probably doesn't matter. I don't play much anymore, and whenever I do I just spam stupid HO. I would like to say metagrossite victini is just fine, it doesn't have to just be red orb.
Also wanted to leave this team as a sample of what i normally use most of the time. Have not tested it much on ladder so feedback is appreciated. And no there is nothing wrong with smeargle.
Until gen 8 most likely,
TSB
 

Chazm

yeet
is a Pre-Contributor
Posting a team for submissions to samples:

Zygarde @ Lucarionite
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 220 Atk / 48 SpD / 240 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance

Kartana @ Metagrossite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance

Entei @ Altarianite
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 40 HP / 204 Atk / 252 SpD / 12 Spe Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge
- Toxic

Metagross @ Pinsirite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 128 HP / 228 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Explosion
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 240 Def / 252 SpA / 16 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Defog

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Rash Nature
- Fire Blast
- Precipice Blades
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rock Polish


Pretty fun offense team I've been using for a while. It utilizes the simultaneous wallbreaking and sweeping capabilities of Lucarionite Zygarde + Metagrossite Kartana to attempt to quickly mash through teams, with Rock Polish Primal Groudon finishing off the threat. This team doesn't have the best longetivity; so play aggressively.
 
I'll jump on and drop a team for samples too.
Standard webs but updated with the latest technology.
Shuckle @ Ampharosite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Encore

Shaymin-Sky @ Diancite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Earth Power
- Healing Wish

Tapu Lele @ Lucarionite
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 120 HP / 20 Atk / 236 SpA / 132 Spe
Hardy Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Eruption
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance

Magearna @ Pinsirite
Ability: Soul-Heart
Happiness: 0
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Last Resort

Entei @ Altarianite
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Stomping Tantrum
- Stone Edge

Used it twice for ssnl so I'll drop the replays too:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7mixandmega-431348
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-892762211

EDIT: fixed mag's spread, 4->36 hp, 252->220 spe, lets it outspeed dia skymin which is the fastest non-boosted thing in this meta and keeps the rest for bulk.
 
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