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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)
- Thread starter TPP
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I got up to 4th on the ladder using an anti-meta team which included a set somebody posted earlier in this thread of Dragon Dance Ttar with weakness policy behind dual screens, it's kinda benefited by water attacks in that case as it can set up and if I was really worried it wouldn't take a hit dynamaxing was always an option to double it's health another time to get the weakness policy off, ditto usually has to wait for a lot of chip or reflect to go away to revenge and Grimmsnarl is an amazingly reliable screens setter.
I think it has it's place in the meta, checking most ghosts like Chandelure, Poltergeist, (non Focus Blast) Gengar & special Dragapult as well as most Hydreigon is a useful niche as there aren't a ton of options for that now and ghosts are becoming very common, just being a mon that can eat a hit and dish out a lot of damage is valuable at the moment. Also as HannibalLekter said there's always sand balance especially with Exca around.
I think the best strategy is to switch in a bulky water type and then abuse it being locked into a move or being at low health.
For Galar Dex, Pyukumuku is the best answer for both the GT and BD sets, since its bulky enough to tank a neutral GT hit, and ignores the belly drum boost.
If it is GT, and it also uses EQ or what ever, switch to a flying type or what ever resists the coverage. depending on what it uses. This abuses the fact that GT locks Darmanitan into 1 move, and the fact that Zen Mode would try to set up, so it wouldn’t go for a straight attack. Once you do, Darmanitan is forced out and likely to take Stealth Rock damage.
And because you have Unaware, Pyukumuku won’t mind staying in on Darm after a belly drum.
Pyukumuku can also use Counter against Darmanitan.
In ND, you just do the same, but you have more options like Slowbro/Mega, Mega Aggron, Tapu Fini, Suicune, ect.
I'd say Dracovish outclasses it even under Trick Room, despite Arctovish being slower. Strong Jaw makes Dracovish absurdly powerful, and STAB Icicle Crash doesn't seem like a worthwhile trade. Water/Dragon is also a much better defensive typing than Water/Ice.
G-Corsola isn't weak to any of Darm's moves so I'd say it's one of the better switch ins if you keep it healthy, but neutral hits (especially band) hurt it a lot so you still need to actually have other switch ins and roll the dice occasionally.
The problem is that Darm can bypass its choice item/GT by Dynamaxing. So say it uses EQ and you switch into your flying type, there's still that risk that he can just dyna-max and kill your shit. The same goes with every other move it has, a lot of Icicle Crash switch ins will get punished by either MAX Flare or MAX Ground-whatever it's called as well. So as long as the Darm user retains its use of Dyna-Max, you're always one bad prediction away from losing a key defensive pokemon, which is a big deal. This is probably the biggest issue with Darm for me personally, as you actually need to go through at least 2 rounds of predictions to be absolutely safe. I have a bunch of resistances to Darm on my team, so if I guess correctly on the first attack, I usually double to a pokemon that resists its other move, which allows me to potentially waste their Dyna-Max, but that has its own risks.
I've faced a lot of players that using up their Dyna-Max so quickly on a Darm team and I think it's a huge mistake. If you retain that ability to Dyna-Max, I truly believe there's no real way to be 100% safe against this thing as its never really locked into one single move. Once Dyna-Max is used up, I think Darm is sooo much worse against a team that has adequate preparations against it. Then, you can sort of just deal with it in the way you mentioned.
Corsola-G is definitely a good contender, but it lacks Unaware for Belly Drum and resistance to its STAB(s).
Here are also some calcs (mind that I adjusted everything to simulate what would happen)
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 170-201 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 174-205 (53.7 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 136-161 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 108-128 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If the opponent is using Band Darm, Pyukumuku has the far better odds of surviving, even against the higher damage hit, so you can immediately force out Darmanitan if it uses Icicle Crash (and EQ as well if you have protect), while Corsola is forced to switch out into the back resist.
Although, if Darmanitan is Scarf, Corsola has the chance to beat out Darmanitan better since it can safely Sap Sipper or Will-O-Wisp. So it come down to whether your team is weaker to Scarf darm or weaker to CB/BD.
Also, forcing a Dynamax on GT Darm when it can’t EQ a flying type is pretty good since it means it’s not on something like Gyarados.
No disagreements from me, just wanted to point out that switching into a resisted hit from Darm doesn't actually put you into the safety zone because the potential to Dynamax and because Darm has such strong coverage, it is able to threaten that dynamax on almost everything that is currently used in this meta.
As for forcing Dyna-max, it depends on your team comp i guess. The problem with "forcing" the dynamax but still losing your pokemon means that Darm stays alive and you lose a resistance to one of its strong attacks, with ups the prediction game more. As I mentioned, Darm is so much weaker after Dyna-max is used up as prediction becomes much more straightforward, so you have a point there, but nonetheless if it's killed a defensive pokemon on your team, I feel like it has already somewhat done its job, and if it's still alive, it's a pain in the butt. Personally, I find dealing with Dyna-Max Gyarados, Barra etc way easier to deal with cos they're very linear and due to their immense popularity, I have hard counters, whereas a Darm that threatens Dyna-max is much scarier for me.
I want to say something about two pokemon that we normally dismiss, but that I think actually could have a Dynamax niche in the metagame.
Yes, I know that they don't benefit from Psychic Terrain. That Dynamax effect is essentially superfluous other than any team support it can offer after you faint. But nevertheless, I believe they have a niche as Dynamax users for one single reason:
Not giving a crap about Ferropex cores.
Both of these Flying/Psychic Pokemon get Heat Wave in addition to their STABs. With Max Mindstorm and Max Flare, teams that rely on Ferrothorn and Toxapex for their defense are seriously pressured. Even if the opponent holds these two off the field, it means they are forced to send out pokes the core was meant to support, who are often not as defensive and were not intended to be the ones standing up to Dynamax attacks. Against most of these, your main move will be Max Airstream, arguably the best Max Move courtesy of the speed boosts.
Here are the sets:
Sigilyph @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Air Slash
- Psychic
- Heat Wave
Swoobat @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Stored Power
- Heat Wave
I'll first talk about the worse one. With Simple, Swoobat has the capability of truly steamrolling teams given the (admittedly hard to get) right circumstances. After your double Nasty Plot boost and double Max Airstream speed boosts, Stored Power is mega-charged so you can pack a wallop even when your Dynamax ends. The trouble is, it needs a ton of support. It's so frail that it really needs a focus sash, requiring that hazards be off the field, and is incredibly weak to priority. Critically, it can even have trouble setting up in front of Ferrothorn, as it hates leech seed.
The better option in my opinion is Sigilyph. It can never become as powerful as Swoobat, but it does a much better job accomplishing the set's goal: switching into Ferrothorn and Toxapex and setting up, as it gives zero fucks about stealth rock, leech seed, and burns. I use it with screen support from Grimmsnarl--with screens and extra Dynamax HP, it can actually live a super effective hit or a couple priority moves, unlike Swoobat. Max Airstream and Flare are its main moves. I really only use Mindstorm when they have are forced to sack their Pex.
Xatu should be able to do the same in theory, but I think it's not as good as Sigilyph. It's slower and weaker (especially since Sig loves Life Orb), and while it can deflect rocks, it's more constraining to have to switch in while the rocks are being set (i.e. you may not have time to get screens up if they send out their rock setter, forcing you come in before you're ready).
Obviously, these are all weak to sucker punch and priority in general, as well as Ditto. Their initial power is weak, and before Max Airstream, they are easily outsped by threats like Dragapult. Tyranitar must be removed before any sweeps are attempted. They are much harder to use without screen support. For these reasons, I do not think they will be OU staples, but I think at least Sigilyph should be able to find its way somewhere onto the viability rankings.
Yes, I know that they don't benefit from Psychic Terrain. That Dynamax effect is essentially superfluous other than any team support it can offer after you faint. But nevertheless, I believe they have a niche as Dynamax users for one single reason:
Not giving a crap about Ferropex cores.
Both of these Flying/Psychic Pokemon get Heat Wave in addition to their STABs. With Max Mindstorm and Max Flare, teams that rely on Ferrothorn and Toxapex for their defense are seriously pressured. Even if the opponent holds these two off the field, it means they are forced to send out pokes the core was meant to support, who are often not as defensive and were not intended to be the ones standing up to Dynamax attacks. Against most of these, your main move will be Max Airstream, arguably the best Max Move courtesy of the speed boosts.
Here are the sets:
Sigilyph @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Air Slash
- Psychic
- Heat Wave
Swoobat @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Stored Power
- Heat Wave
I'll first talk about the worse one. With Simple, Swoobat has the capability of truly steamrolling teams given the (admittedly hard to get) right circumstances. After your double Nasty Plot boost and double Max Airstream speed boosts, Stored Power is mega-charged so you can pack a wallop even when your Dynamax ends. The trouble is, it needs a ton of support. It's so frail that it really needs a focus sash, requiring that hazards be off the field, and is incredibly weak to priority. Critically, it can even have trouble setting up in front of Ferrothorn, as it hates leech seed.
The better option in my opinion is Sigilyph. It can never become as powerful as Swoobat, but it does a much better job accomplishing the set's goal: switching into Ferrothorn and Toxapex and setting up, as it gives zero fucks about stealth rock, leech seed, and burns. I use it with screen support from Grimmsnarl--with screens and extra Dynamax HP, it can actually live a super effective hit or a couple priority moves, unlike Swoobat. Max Airstream and Flare are its main moves. I really only use Mindstorm when they have are forced to sack their Pex.
Xatu should be able to do the same in theory, but I think it's not as good as Sigilyph. It's slower and weaker (especially since Sig loves Life Orb), and while it can deflect rocks, it's more constraining to have to switch in while the rocks are being set (i.e. you may not have time to get screens up if they send out their rock setter, forcing you come in before you're ready).
Obviously, these are all weak to sucker punch and priority in general, as well as Ditto. Their initial power is weak, and before Max Airstream, they are easily outsped by threats like Dragapult. Tyranitar must be removed before any sweeps are attempted. They are much harder to use without screen support. For these reasons, I do not think they will be OU staples, but I think at least Sigilyph should be able to find its way somewhere onto the viability rankings.
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There's a problem with this when factoring in the Gigantamax Pokemon. Most of them (aside from the gift Charmander, Pikachu, Eevee, and Meowth) are only obtainable in Max Raid battles, and they always come with random Dynamax level boosts depending on the boss star level. I believe it's impossible to have most of the Gigantamax Pokemon come with a flat Dynamax level of 0.
To add my unasked two cents into this whole discussion about Dynamax, I personally think Dynamax in of itself is (kind of) fine, but the main issue of it lies in its abusers. Before suspecting Dynamax, I think it'd be better to suspect Gyarados and Hawlucha, because for the most part I've found that they're the biggest issue behind why people are struggling so hard with it. I'm usually not an advocate of banning things, especially with how early the Gen 8 meta is, but Gyarados/Hawlucha are way, way too ridiculous. Gyarados's ability to just switch in and just threaten the entire game with a single dragon dance is absolute bullshit, and thanks to the coverage it gets through TRs, its original counters are now just blatant Moxie fuel. To add insult to injury, the ability to nuke things with Max-Bounces and not only get speed boosts but attack boosts through Moxie is way too easy to execute for what reward it gives, and by the time Dynamax expires, it won't even matter with what boosts it has and the coverage it retains. On top of that, if you really want a cushioned switch in, run Intimidate! Or, even better, run Substitute or a different coverage move for what you wish to cover. It's way to easy to run this thing, and it absolutely brutalizes no matter how you opt to.
Overall, I think the fact that Gyarados is so easily able to switch in and steal games is way too ridiculous and overcentralizing. Yes, Lando was centralizing, but at least you didn't have to really go out of your way to counter it thanks to Hidden power, a 4x weakness to a common offensive type, and how many natural checks there were. Gyarados on the other hand, while having a 4x weakness, needs full on custom sets that are relatively niche to properly counter it. Not only is that inherently a difficulty with how flexible its sets are, but I wouldn't have doubts that would create an overly defensive, stally metagame just to handle one Pokemon. That's completely stupid, and things like Dynamax Gyarados are noncompetitive. If something is borderline impossible to react to without losing a couple mons in the process, I'm not at all an advocate of it and it will suffocate the metagame.
Lucha has the same issues, but to a slightly lesser extent and in a different manner. Free attack boosts through a beefy Max-Knuckle, beefy Airstream boosts, and terrain setup options for Unburden are also really problematic for the same reasons as I provided with Gyarados.
On the other hand! I think Gigantamax (maybe Dynamax in general minus Gyara/Lucha; will have to see based on how the meta develops) is really nice and a fun option for the metagame. Not only would you be able to scout it out on team preview, but it's because of this that it would be inherently react-able. If we opt to ban Dynamax as a whole, keeping Gigantamax not only keeps the metagame interesting and fun, but it quells the fundamental issue behind why Dynamax is so ridiculous: its ability to just be popped at any time with any Pokemon without the opponent being able to immediately react (unless you bait it out, which in of itself is unreliable). I'm all for something like that to keep Gen 8 spicy and prevent stall from becoming the ultimate way of playing this gen.
Tl;dr: dynamax is iffy, sure, but Gyarados/Lucha are really busted. Maybe suspect Dynamax depending on how we handle the dynamax duo, but ultimately keep Gigantamax to prevent stall from dominating the meta and keep things interesting.
Overall, I think the fact that Gyarados is so easily able to switch in and steal games is way too ridiculous and overcentralizing. Yes, Lando was centralizing, but at least you didn't have to really go out of your way to counter it thanks to Hidden power, a 4x weakness to a common offensive type, and how many natural checks there were. Gyarados on the other hand, while having a 4x weakness, needs full on custom sets that are relatively niche to properly counter it. Not only is that inherently a difficulty with how flexible its sets are, but I wouldn't have doubts that would create an overly defensive, stally metagame just to handle one Pokemon. That's completely stupid, and things like Dynamax Gyarados are noncompetitive. If something is borderline impossible to react to without losing a couple mons in the process, I'm not at all an advocate of it and it will suffocate the metagame.
Lucha has the same issues, but to a slightly lesser extent and in a different manner. Free attack boosts through a beefy Max-Knuckle, beefy Airstream boosts, and terrain setup options for Unburden are also really problematic for the same reasons as I provided with Gyarados.
On the other hand! I think Gigantamax (maybe Dynamax in general minus Gyara/Lucha; will have to see based on how the meta develops) is really nice and a fun option for the metagame. Not only would you be able to scout it out on team preview, but it's because of this that it would be inherently react-able. If we opt to ban Dynamax as a whole, keeping Gigantamax not only keeps the metagame interesting and fun, but it quells the fundamental issue behind why Dynamax is so ridiculous: its ability to just be popped at any time with any Pokemon without the opponent being able to immediately react (unless you bait it out, which in of itself is unreliable). I'm all for something like that to keep Gen 8 spicy and prevent stall from becoming the ultimate way of playing this gen.
Tl;dr: dynamax is iffy, sure, but Gyarados/Lucha are really busted. Maybe suspect Dynamax depending on how we handle the dynamax duo, but ultimately keep Gigantamax to prevent stall from dominating the meta and keep things interesting.
Showdown also assumes your mons are perfect 6iv with perfect EVs so i don't see why we couldn't just get a perfect dynamax level anyway
The problem with this notion is that Gyarados and Hawlucha will just easily be replaced by the next Dynamax abuser, which there are several contenders (like Salazzle, Gengar, Special/Physical Hydregion, Darm-Z-G, Polteageist, Swoobat, and pretty much every set up sweeper in the game).
The fact of the matter is that Dynamax heavily favors set up sweepers and makes sweeping as easy as getting 1 read if the opponent doesn’t have a Ditto.
You also got to have the mindset of “there is no national dex in Galar”.
It’s not so easy to stop a set up sweeper in Galar Dex as it is in previous gens (unless you are playing National Dex OU, in which case that meta is far more balanced because of this point).
I also don’t feel like Gyarados or Hawlucha would be as broken without Dynamaxing.
Gyarados loses Max Airstream and Max Geyser without Dynamaxing, so every decently bulky Grass type can wall it and it is much harder to Moxie boosts without rain boosted 3 consecutive (slightly) weaker Z-moves.
Hawlucha is similar as it loses access to Max Knuckle to boost Atk as it kills and the double HP, making it lose the risk involved with setting up.
Marty is a hero and has pulled stats from the first few days of the ladder. It's not a gigantic sample size, but with over 44000 games it's still enough to give us a pretty decent view of the meta. No huge surprises: lots of Excadrill, GalarDarm, Dragapult and Ditto. Aegislash is a bit higher than I'd expected, making it into the top 10 over some other popular options like GalarCorsola and Hawlucha.
The biggest surprise for me is that Togekiss is way way down at 44th in usage (2.63%); in my experience it's up there with Lucha, Gyarados and Excadrill as one of the most threatening Dynamax sweepers. To see it below things like Runerigus, Chandelure and Centiskortch feels off.
Anyhow, here are the top 10 most used 'mons in OU as of last night:
Edit: regarding the previous poster's comments on not seeing TTar, it's actually not doing too poorly - it's currently at 15th in usage, just behind GalarCorsola. When I'm not on mobile I'll post the full stats.
The biggest surprise for me is that Togekiss is way way down at 44th in usage (2.63%); in my experience it's up there with Lucha, Gyarados and Excadrill as one of the most threatening Dynamax sweepers. To see it below things like Runerigus, Chandelure and Centiskortch feels off.
Anyhow, here are the top 10 most used 'mons in OU as of last night:
Code:
Total battles: 44393
Avg. weight/team: 0.04
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Excadrill | 36.14147% | 26144 | 29.446% | 20190 | 30.589% |
| 2 | Darmanitan-Galar | 34.88677% | 29546 | 33.278% | 22830 | 34.589% |
| 3 | Dragapult | 34.23670% | 31004 | 34.920% | 21865 | 33.127% |
| 4 | Corviknight | 31.33300% | 22708 | 25.576% | 17148 | 25.980% |
| 5 | Ditto | 29.33092% | 17400 | 19.598% | 11355 | 17.203% |
| 6 | Ferrothorn | 24.41318% | 17771 | 20.016% | 14844 | 22.489% |
| 7 | Gyarados | 23.65489% | 16643 | 18.745% | 11440 | 17.332% |
| 8 | Rotom-Wash | 23.05373% | 13048 | 14.696% | 10818 | 16.390% |
| 9 | Toxapex | 19.51562% | 12451 | 14.024% | 9818 | 14.875% |
| 10 | Aegislash | 18.25009% | 14362 | 16.176% | 10438 | 15.814% |Edit: regarding the previous poster's comments on not seeing TTar, it's actually not doing too poorly - it's currently at 15th in usage, just behind GalarCorsola. When I'm not on mobile I'll post the full stats.
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Gojira (Tyranitar) (M) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch
- Crunch
Someone mentioned this a few pages back, but The King of the Pocket Monsters is hella slept on as a Dragon Dance Max sweeper. My favorite set so far is max HP (thanks to a fully-invested base 100 HP, you reach 808 HP at full health) and is actually a huge menace to rain teams barring Barraskewda (although max HP enables you to just barely survive Adamant Life Orb Close Combat if Dynamax'd and healthy, which does 785 max, and even less if not running Orb). Max Rockfall just sets Sand back up, screwing over Pelipper as it helplessly tries to reset Rain. Its tremendous bulk, especially on the special side with Sand up, makes it easy for this mon to get up more than one DD, and Jolly is used to outspeed Scarf Darm at +2, which Adamant can't do but DD boosts + Weakness Policy MORE than makes up for it. I've also tried Leftovers before running Weakness Policy and it's not that bad, either, keeping it marginally healthy during a sweep. Something I'd like to mention is that, as a Dark-type, it's immune to Prankster unlike some of the other DD sweepers, which makes it immune to Grimmsnarl shenanigans other than Reflect.
Don't even get me started if you use this behemoth with screens support. It just becomes super dumb. I had a match where I forced a Modest Life Orb Clefable to Dynamax, and its Max-Moonblast only did 45% behind Sand and Light Screen, activating Weakness Policy while still healthy enough to set up a second DD so I could outspeed the Scarf Darmanitan lying in wait.
I used Stone Edge, but I've seen other Rock-type moves being used (hell, Blunder used one with Rock Blast in one of his recent vids) since Max Rockfall's base power isn't that different most of the time. Fire Punch for the omnipresent Ferrothorn as well as other Steels and Grass-types, then Crunch for secondary STAB against fat Psychics like Reuniclus.
I wouldn't say it's as consistent as some of the other Max sweepers around, but it's nowhere near as bad as others say and I firmly believe Tyranitar is still a top contender in the current meta. The following replays aren't the best in the world, but they give you a general idea of what DD Tar is capable of these days:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1014536263 (Leftovers variant, which actually came into play at the end when the opponent tries to stall out my Tyranitar with Max Guard + Leech Seed, preserving the 6-0)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1014551577 (Weakness Policy, and this is the match vs Clefable that I referred to earlier)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1014567128 (vs Rain)
Can't say this really surprises me; I've seen all of these mons in excess the past few days of labbing. I think personally the biggest surprise is seeing how high Corviknight is; it's got an amazing defensive typing and some interesting offensive options, but I never really considered it a high contender for usage given how passive it can be on its defensive sets and how it lacks hazards and Toxic. It does check Excadrill pretty solidly though!
Aside from that, these mons have been making a pretty big splash though. Very curious to see where the meta takes them from here
Yeah, that's kinda why I suggest suspecting Gyarados/Lucha first. It'd be good to see whether or not they're the issue first, and if Dynamax continues to be an issue for the reasons you've provided, unban the duo and just ban Dynamax as a whole. Dynamax is still a really new thing we have to experiment with and let the meta respond to on top of the Dexit for sure.
irt objections to two ladders, specifically this one (since it's the best):
I feel like splintering the playerbase isn't as much of an issue as it sounds. It's possible that we'll split the smaller base of top ladder players, but there's not really a shortage of OU players. Even if the playerbase ends up divided 50/50, each will still have far more players (including good ones) than probably all the lower tiers combined.
Plus, split ladders aren't being proposed as a permanent solution, but rather an extended suspect. A normal suspect cycle isn't nearly long enough to examine a generation-defining feature like Dynamaxing; if there's any time where a split ladder would be warranted, this is it. That said, those are indeed valid concerns with having 2 ladders. The goal of this comment isn't to dismiss those.
An idea: is it possible to sync ELO across both ladders? If players can swap between them at-will, that can heavily mitigate the issues with a split, because there's no need to heavily invest in the other ladder just to climb to a decent rank. One potential issue is people who don't want their ranks to be synced (which is totally fair). There's a programmatic solution that's probably not worth implementing, but conceptually: players are able to use different alts, and, as before, it's not a permanent solution. Ranks are so volatile anyway this early in the gen.
I disagree that the other ladder will fail to gain traffic, especially if we end up syncing ELO (though I feel the same regardless). This is especially true if the ladder is considered "official" and given an OU thread. I'd point to the gen 5 no-SR ladder again as an example; that had far fewer players than a non-dyna ladder would have, but it still developed very distinctly from the normal ladder in a very short period of time and, imo, it did provide valuable insight. The "it may not get traction" argument doesn't hold water imo when A) a dynamax suspect is perhaps the largest priority right now, and B) there isn't a huge cost to trying it out. Spinning up another ladder and writing up an OU thread would take 30 minutes at most.
Having a separate ladder would at the very least provide more insight than just theorymoning the impact of a ban, especially for the large majority of players who don't have enough experience to (imo) effectively theorize. Making educated guesses on the implications of a massive mechanic ban can only go so far e.g. the way we handled gen 5 weather. The consensus among even the most experienced players lead us to banning SS+drizzle instead of nerfing weather as a whole. A separate no-weather "suspect" ladder could've mitigated that.
Finchinator said:
I feel like splintering the playerbase isn't as much of an issue as it sounds. It's possible that we'll split the smaller base of top ladder players, but there's not really a shortage of OU players. Even if the playerbase ends up divided 50/50, each will still have far more players (including good ones) than probably all the lower tiers combined.
Plus, split ladders aren't being proposed as a permanent solution, but rather an extended suspect. A normal suspect cycle isn't nearly long enough to examine a generation-defining feature like Dynamaxing; if there's any time where a split ladder would be warranted, this is it. That said, those are indeed valid concerns with having 2 ladders. The goal of this comment isn't to dismiss those.
An idea: is it possible to sync ELO across both ladders? If players can swap between them at-will, that can heavily mitigate the issues with a split, because there's no need to heavily invest in the other ladder just to climb to a decent rank. One potential issue is people who don't want their ranks to be synced (which is totally fair). There's a programmatic solution that's probably not worth implementing, but conceptually: players are able to use different alts, and, as before, it's not a permanent solution. Ranks are so volatile anyway this early in the gen.
I disagree that the other ladder will fail to gain traffic, especially if we end up syncing ELO (though I feel the same regardless). This is especially true if the ladder is considered "official" and given an OU thread. I'd point to the gen 5 no-SR ladder again as an example; that had far fewer players than a non-dyna ladder would have, but it still developed very distinctly from the normal ladder in a very short period of time and, imo, it did provide valuable insight. The "it may not get traction" argument doesn't hold water imo when A) a dynamax suspect is perhaps the largest priority right now, and B) there isn't a huge cost to trying it out. Spinning up another ladder and writing up an OU thread would take 30 minutes at most.
Having a separate ladder would at the very least provide more insight than just theorymoning the impact of a ban, especially for the large majority of players who don't have enough experience to (imo) effectively theorize. Making educated guesses on the implications of a massive mechanic ban can only go so far e.g. the way we handled gen 5 weather. The consensus among even the most experienced players lead us to banning SS+drizzle instead of nerfing weather as a whole. A separate no-weather "suspect" ladder could've mitigated that.
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I support a non dynamax ladder, either if it replaces the dynamax ladder or if it runs paralell to a dynamax ladder.
Currently the ladder has adapted to the biggest dynamax threats (gyarados, hawlucha, excadrill), and you see some defensive cores, however i believe people will adapt to this and find new ways to break defensive with new threats created to deal with those defensive cores. I think dynamax heavily favors offensive and doesnt allow for multiple playstyle being similarly good.
Overall i still like to play gen 8 because i dont see Landorus and Sr is less effective. But seeing Ditto on every team is kinda annoying.
Currently the ladder has adapted to the biggest dynamax threats (gyarados, hawlucha, excadrill), and you see some defensive cores, however i believe people will adapt to this and find new ways to break defensive with new threats created to deal with those defensive cores. I think dynamax heavily favors offensive and doesnt allow for multiple playstyle being similarly good.
Overall i still like to play gen 8 because i dont see Landorus and Sr is less effective. But seeing Ditto on every team is kinda annoying.
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did Marty do this unweighted or did he look at the top glicko?
Do we have data in what is the minimum dynamax level a pokemon with gmax can be caught at? If its low enough, could we revert the level that showdown uses to that, thus lowering how much HP someone gets from dmax? Or would it not be impactful enough?
Anyways, I'm still pretty low ladder as I don't have time to play right now, but from what I've played it seems like a ferropex core is pretty useful to shut down dynamax. Pex with haze to never let hawlucha breathe a swords dance and baneful banker to get free poison. Ferro can make it hard to set up a dynamax with no fire moves by using leech seed and crippling the foe down, forcing switch ins.
Or I might be a clown and this is totally incorrect, but oh well.
Anyways, I'm still pretty low ladder as I don't have time to play right now, but from what I've played it seems like a ferropex core is pretty useful to shut down dynamax. Pex with haze to never let hawlucha breathe a swords dance and baneful banker to get free poison. Ferro can make it hard to set up a dynamax with no fire moves by using leech seed and crippling the foe down, forcing switch ins.
Or I might be a clown and this is totally incorrect, but oh well.
I just don't see a world where this is the best solution. Besides, this also eliminates a lot of the defensive counterplay Dynamaxing can bring by limiting the health pool available to your defensive dynamax. I think the metagame should be examined with a Dynamax in or out mindset, not some weird pseudo nerfs to it like reducing the healthpool or something like that.
That's completly fair, and I myself don't mind if dynamax ends up needing to be banned. Was just trying to think of something that's the best of both worlds but it seems unlikely.
this tier right now is a goddamn joke so tired of it already
first things first - obviously ditto is god tier right now and the fact that we are allowing this to happen is embarrassing. Dynamax is a dumb ass mechanic made so that literal 6 year olds could steamroll in the game and make it more accessible to them. lets not pretend otherwise it's so stupid; not a single defense for it. such a stupid mechanic that fits in with gamefreaks obvious goal of limiting creativity and sets and making shit so easy o that a four year old could win tournaments. fucking losers
but anyway galarian darmanitan is obviously amazing right now as well - id say it needs to be banned for SEVERAL reasons not even mentioning dynamax. the band set is absolutely atrocious and the scarf set is deadly.
however I wanna throw out there that it can be used quite more balanced and heatly by using zen mode and subbing or belly drumming. hell ya GLGP.
excadrill needs to go. the fact that rapid spin increases speed is bullshit and it can set up it's on sand like what the actual hell is wrong with this game anyway. dynamax aside the rapid spin boost is atrocious and honestly needs to be suspected.
fuck gyarados & fuck hawlucha - u know why.
mandibuzz is amazing right now. I love this mon obviously but it shuts down corv. I dont run toixc anymore I run taunt and it laughs at set ups.
Toxtricity is fucking incredible and one my fav mons this game. overdrive and boomburst are insane lmao. I run life orb but u can run specs and life orb does like 65% to excadrill lmaoooo. you also can shift gear and sweep. keep in mind that ditto is not a counter. scarf boomburst does like 50% to u bc of punk rock.
cinderace - this mon has been blessed lol love it.
cursola (the evo)- this mon has been overlooked but goddamn it has some INCREDIBLE special stats that ive taken advantage of. I run av and u live a specs hydreigon dark pulse lmao and ko back after rocks lmaooooooo
stop using the teapot - garbage mon.
- have a lit day, Omari P
first things first - obviously ditto is god tier right now and the fact that we are allowing this to happen is embarrassing. Dynamax is a dumb ass mechanic made so that literal 6 year olds could steamroll in the game and make it more accessible to them. lets not pretend otherwise it's so stupid; not a single defense for it. such a stupid mechanic that fits in with gamefreaks obvious goal of limiting creativity and sets and making shit so easy o that a four year old could win tournaments. fucking losers
but anyway galarian darmanitan is obviously amazing right now as well - id say it needs to be banned for SEVERAL reasons not even mentioning dynamax. the band set is absolutely atrocious and the scarf set is deadly.
however I wanna throw out there that it can be used quite more balanced and heatly by using zen mode and subbing or belly drumming. hell ya GLGP.
excadrill needs to go. the fact that rapid spin increases speed is bullshit and it can set up it's on sand like what the actual hell is wrong with this game anyway. dynamax aside the rapid spin boost is atrocious and honestly needs to be suspected.
fuck gyarados & fuck hawlucha - u know why.
mandibuzz is amazing right now. I love this mon obviously but it shuts down corv. I dont run toixc anymore I run taunt and it laughs at set ups.
Toxtricity is fucking incredible and one my fav mons this game. overdrive and boomburst are insane lmao. I run life orb but u can run specs and life orb does like 65% to excadrill lmaoooo. you also can shift gear and sweep. keep in mind that ditto is not a counter. scarf boomburst does like 50% to u bc of punk rock.
cinderace - this mon has been blessed lol love it.
cursola (the evo)- this mon has been overlooked but goddamn it has some INCREDIBLE special stats that ive taken advantage of. I run av and u live a specs hydreigon dark pulse lmao and ko back after rocks lmaooooooo
stop using the teapot - garbage mon.
- have a lit day, Omari P
Xatu seems like an interesting option for some teams at the moment. Its one of the few things that gives no fucks about that Toxapex / Ferrothorn / Corsola-G core thats going around everywhere. Pursuit disappearing also means that it can just U-turn out of Tyranitar without fear. Biggest option is its 4MSS - you ideally want Heat Wave at least for Ferrothorn, if not both Psychic + Heat Wave, Roost is a must, U-turn is great, and then there's a wealth of support options like Screens, Twave, Tailwind etc. Its not going to blow the world away but its a cool option if you really need to role compress hazard control and Pex/Ferro/Corsola switch-ins.
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On Dynamax - its pretty clearly ridiculous in its current state but I think there are a more diverse range of avenues to down from here than people are talking about. One option I haven't seen discussed is perhaps limit the options/timing of dynamax and therefore make it a bit more predictable, rather than just banning it or the abusers outright. The clearest applications of this would be:
1) Only last Pokemon in your teambuilder can Dynamax - therefore your opponent knows from Team Preview. This gives you the information from the beginning, and allows you to adequately prepare throughout the game. This at least allows you to attempt counterplay. For purists, this also maintains the "flavour" of the mechanic, which each character in-game reserves for a signature, pre-determined Pokemon that they send out last.
2) Only the last-Pokemon-standing can Dynamax - again, makes the mechanic more predictable but also keeps in line with the original intention of the mechanic. Makes the sac-game pretty important. Decreases the overall power of the mechanic, but still leans more offensively oriented (defensive teams unlikely to get to a final Pokemon and still win). Also makes it unlikely that you'd have a Dynamax face-off, which seems to disagree with the intended use in-game, where the big draw is having both Pokemon Dynamaxed against eachother.
3) By far the most unlikely - Dynamax only activated on a single given turn (e.g. turn 20, therefore always active on turns 20-22). Allows you to get into position, if you want to "snowball" you have to be in the proper position to do so by getting a Gyarados DD on turn 19, and therefore it actively rewards good play. Similarly, if you want to counterplay it then any defensive mon gets 2 Max Guards (on turn 20, then 22). A very very unlikely fix, but would certainly allow you to keep the mechanic in, control its power, but make it reward good play.
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On Dynamax - its pretty clearly ridiculous in its current state but I think there are a more diverse range of avenues to down from here than people are talking about. One option I haven't seen discussed is perhaps limit the options/timing of dynamax and therefore make it a bit more predictable, rather than just banning it or the abusers outright. The clearest applications of this would be:
1) Only last Pokemon in your teambuilder can Dynamax - therefore your opponent knows from Team Preview. This gives you the information from the beginning, and allows you to adequately prepare throughout the game. This at least allows you to attempt counterplay. For purists, this also maintains the "flavour" of the mechanic, which each character in-game reserves for a signature, pre-determined Pokemon that they send out last.
2) Only the last-Pokemon-standing can Dynamax - again, makes the mechanic more predictable but also keeps in line with the original intention of the mechanic. Makes the sac-game pretty important. Decreases the overall power of the mechanic, but still leans more offensively oriented (defensive teams unlikely to get to a final Pokemon and still win). Also makes it unlikely that you'd have a Dynamax face-off, which seems to disagree with the intended use in-game, where the big draw is having both Pokemon Dynamaxed against eachother.
3) By far the most unlikely - Dynamax only activated on a single given turn (e.g. turn 20, therefore always active on turns 20-22). Allows you to get into position, if you want to "snowball" you have to be in the proper position to do so by getting a Gyarados DD on turn 19, and therefore it actively rewards good play. Similarly, if you want to counterplay it then any defensive mon gets 2 Max Guards (on turn 20, then 22). A very very unlikely fix, but would certainly allow you to keep the mechanic in, control its power, but make it reward good play.
I'm trying to make an effective team to see if this
Scrafty @ Coba Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Thunder Punch
- Drain Punch
can deal with Hawlucha and Gyarados
Intimidate on switch in cuts attack, nullifying Swords Dance/Dragon Dance forcing another turn for setup
this gives you one turn to dragon dance then thunder punch which probably one shots (esp. Gyarados) and in some situations you can even get off two dances.
Coba Berry lets you tank their flying move
Scrafty @ Coba Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Thunder Punch
- Drain Punch
can deal with Hawlucha and Gyarados
Intimidate on switch in cuts attack, nullifying Swords Dance/Dragon Dance forcing another turn for setup
this gives you one turn to dragon dance then thunder punch which probably one shots (esp. Gyarados) and in some situations you can even get off two dances.
Coba Berry lets you tank their flying move
- Status