Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

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Flareon has a niche or didnt count as eeveelution??
I have seen several people using Flareon succesfully as a LO Clef check. LO Clef doesn,t have many checks, so being one gives you a niche automatically. Also, Wish support, there aren,t many. Can,t look PS at the moment, but outside of Clefable himself and Eeveelutions, I can,t think of any other released ( Jirachi is not yet) Wisher.
 
I have seen several people using Flareon succesfully as a LO Clef check. LO Clef doesn,t have many checks, so being one gives you a niche automatically. Also, Wish support, there aren,t many. Can,t look PS at the moment, but outside of Clefable himself and Eeveelutions, I can,t think of any other released ( Jirachi is not yet) Wisher.
I dunno Many Eeveelutions suffer to losing specific moves. i.eToxic Vaporeon and Umbreon Hidden Power for Jolteon and Espeon.

Most of them get outpreformed by other pokemon of thier type. Seismitoad as a Water Abosrbing Dracovish counter that still has access to Toxic. Mandibuzz as a bulky Dark-Type that has as much utility with Defog. etc

Sylveon actullay has a good niche as being able to breal past Sub-using Dragapult and Hydregion, and it lost HP but got a better Fire coverage move now with Mystical Fire
 
I dunno Many Eeveelutions suffer to losing specific moves. i.eToxic Vaporeon and Umbreon Hidden Power for Jolteon and Espeon.

Most of them get outpreformed by other pokemon of thier type. Seismitoad as a Water Abosrbing Dracovish counter that still has access to Toxic. Mandibuzz as a bulky Dark-Type that has as much utility with Defog. etc

Sylveon actullay has a good niche as being able to breal past Sub-using Dragapult and Hydregion, and it lost HP but got a better Fire coverage move now with Mystical Fire
Well, I said that they have niches, not that they would be OU staples.

Also, while Vaporeon suffers from losing Toxic, that doesn't matter against Dracovish, since it can't break it anyway without critting Outrage. Yes, Seismitoad has Rocks, Toxic and Ground Typing, but Vaporeon has Wish and Haze, which makes it better on Stall teams while Seismitoad is better on Balance ones.

Umbreon on the other hand doesn't suffer as much from losing Toxic as it does from losing Heal Bell. Most of the Umbreon switch-ins in older gens were immune to Toxic anyway. Mandibuzz is a better Mon in most teams, but again, Umbreon has Wish to compensate, and the lack of Flying typing can be an advantage sometimes, for example against Darmanitan. Umbreon has access to Snarl too, which bypasses the Sub of Dragapult. Also, his ability will make things like Seismitoad think twice before using Toxic or even Scald, especially if Umbreon is paired with a Cleric like Clefable, Eldegoss or Alcremie.

As I already said, Jolteon is the one that I have more doubts with. But he already was terrible to begin with, so the Hidden Power loss doesn't matter much. The gain of Weatherball on the other hand, could be helpful. In Sun it would roast careless Ferrothorn, in Rain destroy Excadrill and in Hail give Boltbeam ( although Rotom-f and Arctzolt probably are better at that). Definitely will explore it's potential at some point.

Espeon would certainly appreciate having Hidden Power, but can live without it. Right now I can't look whether it has Trick but if it does, it can screw rockers that it can't kill, such as Ferrothorn. Yes, Hatterene and Xatu exist, but Espeon is the fastest Magic Bouncer and can hit Darks with Dazzling Gleam, Grounds with Grass Knot and Aegi with Shadow Ball. The removal of Pursuit also made its life a lot easier.

When Dinamax gets banned, thanks to the Dexit and Movexit many Mons, while not being by any means Top-Tiers, will get to see play, don't discard them so fast before giving them a chance. This Meta might end up be the best OU one since Adv and GSC.
 

Scribble

formerly Dartrix - Joker
is a Contributor to Smogon
Just here to talk about two mons that I've found some success with



Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball

I've been using this and it's been putting in some work. Offensively, it's not as strong as Hatterene and its coverage isn't as good, but its superior bulk + Magic Guard lets it come in more times a match and find more opportunities to set up since it doesn't care about hazards and Life Orb won't chip it down. It abuses Dynamax very nicely with setting up its own terrain and its high HP stat gets even better. Reuniclus also has the added benefit of being able to use Calm Mind/Acid Armor more passive sets effectively, which makes this set somewhat surprising and can catch people off guard.



Cinderace @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pyro Ball
- U-turn
- Court Change/Zen Headbutt/High Jump Kick/Sucker Punch
- Court Change/Zen Headbutt/High Jump Kick/Sucker Punch

People mostly use Cinderace as an offensive support mon with Court Change and Heavy-Duty Boots but it also works very well as a scarfer. Pyro Ball is insanely strong, having the same base power as Flare Blitz. Adamant nature lets Cinderace take full advantage of Pyro Ball's power and Scarf keeps its amazing speed tier. It outspeeds +1 Mew, Haxorus, Hydreigon, Darmanitan, and anything slower even with Adamant. I like leading with Cinderace vs Darmanitan since most people don't expect scarf and just let their Darm die turn 1. Pyro Ball and U-Turn are the only mandatory moves, and the other two can be chosen based on what your team needs. It's a great late game cleaner when everything is weakened for Pyro Ball. It can also offensively pressure LO Clefable nicely since it resists Moonblast and Flamethrower and Clefable is cleanly 2HKO'ed by Pyro Ball no matter the HP investment: 252+ Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 258-304 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Also, while Vaporeon suffers from losing Toxic, that doesn't matter against Dracovish, since it can't break it anyway without critting Outrage. Yes, Seismitoad has Rocks, Toxic and Ground Typing, but Vaporeon has Wish and Haze, which makes it better on Stall teams while Seismitoad is better on Balance ones.
Vaporeon help stall bc his huge wish help some walls like ferro and corsola wich don have a realiable recover move. slap a cleric + defoger/magic bounce and you have a thicc stall core...
 
Honestly, I get all the dont talk about future bans when the dynamax one has not even been decided on, but people are trying to figure out the meta and that includes the meta going forward as well, so I think its just logical to discuss what could happen next. After all it was not THAT wrong to discuss Moody being broken here either given that it just got banned despite the suspect still going on.

Id generally agree that Dracovish and Darm will be the next focus of attention. To add to what has been said about them here already, I do believe that while it is questionable as to which of the two is the bigger threat right now, I woul expect Draco to profit from a potential dynamax ban significantly more than Darm. Dracovish is really just one move. A move that did not work when dynamaxed anyway and which never did nor will need dyna to be format shaping in the future. Darm is way different. Most of its power come from the fact that it hits equally hard with all 4 of its moves, relatively speaking, and dynamaxing was just what it needed to go from a one-dimensional breaker to a versatile format-defining threat. CB Terrakion didnt have any switchins either back in gen 5, but if you outpredicted its moves you were good. With dynamaxing there is no outpredicting moves, and this may generally just be the mechanic that ultimately breaks it. You switched your Hippo into Terrak on Edge, awesome. Click Slack off, or Rocks or whatever, you are safe. Switch your Pex into Icicle Crash now and you get the 50\50 mind games that are infesting the metagame right now, namely will they use up their dyna now and kill Pex or will they keep it.
Draco is different. All that switches into Rend now are water absorbers, and most of the time Draco will not even have a dyna move that would kill you after you successfully switch into Rend.

Tldr. The fact that Dracovish is about as strong as Darm right now could mean that Draco will be significantly more powerful when dyna is banned. Darm would lose its main way to circumvent its own inherent linear nature while Draco would lose... Well, nothing.
 
Honestly, I get all the dont talk about future bans when the dynamax one has not even been decided on, but people are trying to figure out the meta and that includes the meta going forward as well, so I think its just logical to discuss what could happen next. After all it was not THAT wrong to discuss Moody being broken here either given that it just got banned despite the suspect still going on.

Id generally agree that Dracovish and Darm will be the next focus of attention. To add to what has been said about them here already, I do believe that while it is questionable as to which of the two is the bigger threat right now, I woul expect Draco to profit from a potential dynamax ban significantly more than Darm. Dracovish is really just one move. A move that did not work when dynamaxed anyway and which never did nor will need dyna to be format shaping in the future. Darm is way different. Most of its power come from the fact that it hits equally hard with all 4 of its moves, relatively speaking, and dynamaxing was just what it needed to go from a one-dimensional breaker to a versatile format-defining threat. CB Terrakion didnt have any switchins either back in gen 5, but if you outpredicted its moves you were good. With dynamaxing there is no outpredicting moves, and this may generally just be the mechanic that ultimately breaks it. You switched your Hippo into Terrak on Edge, awesome. Click Slack off, or Rocks or whatever, you are safe. Switch your Pex into Icicle Crash now and you get the 50\50 mind games that are infesting the metagame right now, namely will they use up their dyna now and kill Pex or will they keep it.
Draco is different. All that switches into Rend now are water absorbers, and most of the time Draco will not even have a dyna move that would kill you after you successfully switch into Rend.

Tldr. The fact that Dracovish is about as strong as Darm right now could mean that Draco will be significantly more powerful when dyna is banned. Darm would lose its main way to circumvent its own inherent linear nature while Draco would lose... Well, nothing.
Also Draco has shift the meta to force use a water absorver in each team if you dont want to be destroyed by Fishious Rend. Things like Seismitoad being the stealth rocker of choice in many team is bc the Vish is so prominent. Remember the fossil start to shine latter in the usage.

Dracovish is really the top 1 meta defining mon beside Dynamax ofc...
 
On the topic of Eeveelutions, Sylveon is really amazing in OU. I've been running 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpDef Calm (probably better to add more to SpDef tbh) with Hyper Voice / Mystical Fire / Wish / Protect. You switch in easily on LO Clef, which is only doing ~35%. Mystical fire cuts Clef's SpA down, forcing it out or letting you 1v1 it easily if you have to. Hydreigon is only doing ~65% with a +2 flash cannon and you KO it thru sub. Sub disable dragapult is KOd thru sub. Specs dragapult is hard walled. Hatterene is walled and debuffed with mystical fire. Ferrothorn is 2HKOd by mystical fire if phys def. If it doesn't have gyro it can't even hurt you too bad. With max calm, you can even switch into toxtricity since they often dont use sludge wave. Even aegislash can lose if it's not running flash cannon. Great mon.
 
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On the topic of Eeveelutions, Sylveon is really amazing in OU. I've been running 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpDef Calm (probably better to add more to SpDef tbh) with Hyper Voice / Mystical Fire / Wish / Protect. You switch in easily on LO Clef, which is only doing ~35%. Mystical fire cuts Clef's SpA down, forcing it out or letting you 1v1 it easily if you have to. Hydreigon is only doing ~65% with a +2 flash cannon and you KO it thru sub. Sub disable dragapult is KOd thru sub. Specs dragapult is hard walled. Hatterene is walled and debuffed with mystical fire. Ferrothorn is 2HKOd by mystical fire if phys def. If it doesn't have gyro it can't even hurt you too bad. With max calm, you can even switch into toxtricity since they often dont use sludge wave. Even aegislash can lose if it's not running flash cannon. Great mon.
What are those EVs for? what does 216 Def live?
 
What are those EVs for? what does 216 Def live?
They aren't for anything specific. Overall the extra def helps in general against things like Dugtrio (ban arena trap plz), ferrothorn, and tyranitar who are doing ~20% less damage with the Def EVs whereas those EVs in SpDef are only letting you take ~5% less from special attackers. Since Sylveon has a low def stat adding in EVs gives a huge increase in phys def. Sort of like Chansey getting way, way bulkier with 252 Def.
 
Also Draco has shift the meta to force use a water absorver in each team if you dont want to be destroyed by Fishious Rend. Things like Seismitoad being the stealth rocker of choice in many team is bc the Vish is so prominent. Remember the fossil start to shine latter in the usage.

Dracovish is really the top 1 meta defining mon beside Dynamax ofc...
I hate how people act like everyone was just slow on the uptake when it came to the fossils. Showdown wasn't implemented properly yet, so fishious rend didn't work correctly. It didn't double its base power, and it didn't do so against switching or switching moves like volt switch either. Literally within a day or two of that interaction being fixed, people jumped on Dravovish and Dracozolt. I mean within 24 hours, it's usage rate spiked. People respond very quickly to these kinds of changes, and while I agree some pokes get slept on, a world beater like dracovish was not one of them.
 
I'd like to talk about a Pokemon that quietly received a few buffs that has been putting in some major work on my rain and my sand teams as an offensive support mon. Silvally-Steel



Silvally: The Fairy Killer

Silvally-Steel @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe or 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe (Depending on whether or not I'm running Thunder Wave or Flamethrower)
Jolly / Naive Nature (Depending on whether or not I'm running Thunder Wave or Flamethrower)
- Multi-Attack
- Parting Shot
- Crunch
- Thunder Wave / Flamethrower​

What are Silvally-Steel's specific benefits as a Pokemon you may ask? Well, let's take a look at them.

- Silvally's signature move "Multi-Attack" was buffed up to 120 base power, meaning that many Pokemon who could safely switch into its attacks last generation (such as Clefable) are no longer safe switch-ins, Taunt abusing Grimmsnarl isn't an option to handle it either.
- Access to fantastic utility such as Parting Shot and Thunder Wave is an absolute godsend for a supporting attacker. Access to U-Turn is another option for momentum if you don't want to rely on Parting Shot.
- Silvally is the only Steel type to get access to Parting Shot. Along with this, it's one of the fastest users of Parting Shot (only outsped by Morpeko, Galarian-Linoone (it outspeeds Obstagoon), and Alolan-Persian [currently unreleased]).
- Silvally-Steel can alternatively run Swords Dance to further enhance its hard hitting Multi-Attacks.
- Base 95 stats across the board (especially base 95 speed) are no longer a liability, they're actually quite decent and hit crucial marks in this much slower generation overall (317 speed with Jolly is fantastic).
- Dexit was a blessing for this Pokemon, as it lost over half of its answers.
- Silvally-Steel has specific advantages over other OU Steel types such as:
  • Having almost universally higher stats than Corviknight along with a better support movepool (Corvinight only has 3 base HP higher and 10 base Defense higher. Silvally has 8 higher Attack, 10 higher Special Defense, 28 higher Speed, and 38 higher Special Attack).
  • Lacking a Ghost weakness like Aegislash.
  • Being faster and bulkier than Excadrill and Bisharp along with lacking Excadrill's crippling Water weakness, and being only 2x weak to Fighting compared to Bisharp's 4x weakness.
- Silvally's movepool is also incredible offensively on both the Physical and the Special side, meaning that it can be customized for your team's specific needs. Want to make sure Ferrothorn doesn't get a free switch-in? Run Flamethrower. Other specific options? Run Thunderbolt or Ice Beam. Need an all powerful STAB special nuke? Try Steel Beam and compliment it with Draco Meteor.

252 Atk Silvally-Steel Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 278-330 (70.5 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Silvally-Steel Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Grimmsnarl: 300-354 (76.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Give Silvally a try, it's done wonders for me and it'll do wonders for you too.
 
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I just started experimenting with Type: Null as a bulky pivot. The idea is it takes an attack and then switches out with a slow U-Turn. With Eviolite, the thing is ridiculously bulky and it only has one defensive weakness. Even Dynamax pokemon weren't KOing it easily today. The problem is its move pool is fairly trash. So it isn't really a good support and it isn't really good at offense. It's just a pivot. So this makes it hard to fit in on most teams. But as far as slow, bulky pivots go, Type: Null is very good at it. Here is the set I've been experimenting with:

1576444783532.png


Type: Null @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- U-turn
- Facade
- Shadow Claw
- Swords Dance

U-Turn is to pivot. The rest of the set was almost inconsequential since its move pool is so limited. I added the other 3 moves so that this could do something to threaten stall. Although, it sure takes quite a few attack boosts to do anything against it. I haven't faced much stall with it so I can't really say if the last 3 moves are worth it. Mostly, this is just used to get momentum on offense and balance. Unfortunately, the only actual support moves this thing gets is Thunder Wave and weather setting moves. So this might be decent as a back up weather setter on certain weather teams or as a counter to things like Sand Rush Excadrill or Swift Swim Barraskewda. The utility options are limited, but may still have a place on some teams.

If anything, it could be an interesting niche pick. It would probably be hard to fit on most teams, though.
 
Been Playing for a while and really don't hate dynamaxing. It's this gens game mechanic and I think it is way too soon to remove it.

Played around with quite a few underrated mons that I would like to share:


Avalugg @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Body Press
- Avalanche

This thing is a great def wall and spinner.

Beats:
Excadrill and you have enough bulk to spin; Body Press 1HKO
Cinderace: Pyro Ball does 44%, out stall it, only 8pp
Bisharp, Scrafty, Haxorus.

Great switch in on Dracovish, Darm and Barraskewda.
Gyrados (even a moxie dynamaxed boosted one) +3 attacks do nothing. [Barring Gyra does not have flamethrower]
Tyranatar + other mons without flamethrower/fireblast.

Will hit Corviknight hard, especially after roost with body press. Does not beat bulk up sets though.


Galvantula @ Focus Sash
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Bug Buzz
- Sticky Web
- Giga Drain

Overall great lead

Destroys rain teams, Gastrodon and Seismitoad.
Sticky Web is great for Darm and draco
Bug Buzz will KO Hydreigon behind sub

Also think Mimikyu is underrated.
Mimikyu @ Spell Tag
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw

Besides for being last second defense against a rolling Dyamaxer, it is a great revenge killer.
It could even sweep teams and beat Ditto one on one if set up and has a fresh Disguise, as Ditto does not get the disguise.
Good switch in for Hatterene as well.

I wish I focused more on getting the reqs and not experimenting with random mons, to vote.
Although Dynamaxing is a very centralizing mechanic, I don't think it should be banned as it is as game mechanic. And there is a fun game to be played around it, with many cool things to discover.
 
Since sitewide people have been advancing a dynamax meta over the past few weeks im really excited to see how this tier will turn out when it goes cold turkey. Will Gyarados plummet to UU or will he be some bulky pivot like in Dppt? No longer can offensive threats use dynamax to snowball with Max Knuckle so i expect shit to get a lot more passive overall. Sand will take a hit until Draco gets Sand Rush.
I really hate when people use this argument. It should be dealt with asap precisely because it's a central mechanic. We need to decide early on whether to remove the band-aid before flesh starts growing on top of the band-aid (not actually how band-aids work but whatever).
No you're correct that's how band-aids work if you dont remove them in time flesh grows over it and your body just kinda eats the band aid entirely and you pass it through your stool the next day

Source: am a scientist
 
I really hate when people use this argument. It should be dealt with asap precisely because it's a central mechanic. We need to decide early on whether to remove the band-aid before flesh starts growing on top of the band-aid (not actually how band-aids work but whatever).
It is Actually one of the strongest reasons why we should not change it (there are others but I'll explain this one).

Team Preview, Stealth Rocks, Mega Evolution, Z Moves, Gen 1 psychic, and some others are all meta defining inclusions to the game that we have to had to play around if you wanted to play pokemon. So just because the play styles that you are use to, or the gameplay you think you want, don't transfer well, that does not mean we should change the game so quickly.

Your Band aid analogy does not really work, if people get used to the meta and play around it, then it does not mean it is perfect, but rather maybe it should be looked at more closely.

If later on if the meta really stagnates, then we could ban it, as I do think there is a threshold to ban things. And as aside note I think a few things should.
 

Wolf

formerly Bloody alfa
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
It is Actually one of the strongest reasons why we should not change it (there are others but I'll explain this one).

Team Preview, Stealth Rocks, Mega Evolution, Z Moves, Gen 1 psychic, and some others are all meta defining inclusions to the game that we have to had to play around if you wanted to play pokemon. So just because the play styles that you are use to, or the gameplay you think you want, don't transfer well, that does not mean we should change the game so quickly.

Your Band aid analogy does not really work, if people get used to the meta and play around it, then it does not mean it is perfect, but rather maybe it should be looked at more closely.

If later on if the meta really stagnates, then we could ban it, as I do think there is a threshold to ban things. And as aside note I think a few things should.
If we're banning it one month after the release, then be sure it is by far the most problematic thing we ever had since Jesus walked on water. We cant wait anymore when its clearly breaking the entire game :pikuh:
 
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