Sub np Togekiss , Tr Hatterene , sub np Hydreigon, Rain team packed with Barraskewda/Mantine/Drednaw , Sub Dracozolt , Durant , some chemist Dragalput set , DD Sub TTar , Gengar , Mold breaker DD Iron tail Haxorus ? the list is long as f.... more like half of the tier honestly .
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)
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amiwos :J
It's laughable that some people here are seriously using git gud as an argument for keeping Dynamax. Oh my god guys, I figured it out, we're just not trying hard enough! Quick, fetch me my Dive Baneful Bunker Toxapex!
I know the discussion has been nothing but Dynamax, but the reason for that is that there is no other significant discussion to be had. Dynamax is such an overcentralizing mechanic that we can't have an actual discussion about threats like darm, lucha, driller, gyara or dragapult in an environment where we don't know their actual potential because they're being injected overpowered Dynajuice or whatever. Dynamax centralizes the games themselves and as a consequence the discussion around them, so the turn this thread has taken is no surprise.
Dynamax is like someone who showed up drunk to the party, fun at the start just because how ridiculous they are but now they threw up on the floor and tripped on their own vomit and they need to go home. Dynamax, go home.
I know the discussion has been nothing but Dynamax, but the reason for that is that there is no other significant discussion to be had. Dynamax is such an overcentralizing mechanic that we can't have an actual discussion about threats like darm, lucha, driller, gyara or dragapult in an environment where we don't know their actual potential because they're being injected overpowered Dynajuice or whatever. Dynamax centralizes the games themselves and as a consequence the discussion around them, so the turn this thread has taken is no surprise.
Dynamax is like someone who showed up drunk to the party, fun at the start just because how ridiculous they are but now they threw up on the floor and tripped on their own vomit and they need to go home. Dynamax, go home.
It's not like there's no game to be had with Dynamax, it doesn't break the game to the point something like Mega-Ray does (whom I dearly hope is burning in hell), it's just not a very fun or competitive game because it warps it in strange and suffocatingly centralizing ways. It's not like people aren't trying to adapt to it, it's just like, the ways you have to adapt to it both ingame and in team building are kinda...ehh, not really great of a experience. And it's not like centralization itself inherently makes for a bad game, GSC Snorlax and BW Weather were incredibly centralizing and those metagames are still enjoyable (or so I hear for GSC i've never touched it myself).
Inherently, there's only so much the meta can really adapt to it as well. Outside of the previously mentioned insanity of trying to use super narrow and niche moves just to combat the mechanic (which don't even do a super great job of it), it's taken to a absurd level of unpredictability thanks to choice locked pokemon able to...suddenly, not be. There's just so many coinflip scenarios and the consequences for losing them are rather dire, and you can only prepare for that so much.
Also I cannot imagine a world in which dynamaxing exists without impostor ditto. The game would go for "horrendous and unfun" to "completely unplayable" real quick and that really speaks volumes about dynamaxing imo.
Inherently, there's only so much the meta can really adapt to it as well. Outside of the previously mentioned insanity of trying to use super narrow and niche moves just to combat the mechanic (which don't even do a super great job of it), it's taken to a absurd level of unpredictability thanks to choice locked pokemon able to...suddenly, not be. There's just so many coinflip scenarios and the consequences for losing them are rather dire, and you can only prepare for that so much.
Also I cannot imagine a world in which dynamaxing exists without impostor ditto. The game would go for "horrendous and unfun" to "completely unplayable" real quick and that really speaks volumes about dynamaxing imo.
Omari P is probably one of the worst people to call out on things like this, mostly because he does build quite a few teams and is primarily a ladder player. His playstyle also doesn't touch stall and mostly focuses on Pokemon he thinks are underrated in the metagame. If anything he's more a HO player first and foremost.
Many people who argue for banning Dynamax have touched the ladder multiple times throughout the entirety of testing and, some like talah for example, have gone back and forth on the subject - meaning they are not married to an absolute. I think it's short-sighted to say people who want to ban Dynamax don't play the game and don't teambuild very often. Your statement couldn't be further from the truth.
I've also pointed out in other posts, and many others have as well, other Pokemon that are very potent with Dynamax and aren't the so-called Top 5. Togekiss, Hydreigon, Gengar, and Dragapult are just some examples that also abuse the mechanic and can snowball or break through a lot of teams without a lot of issues. While some like Dragapult are weaker I admit, it can use Dynamax to free itself from a Choice lock and surprise a check with a Max Move. Gengar is a notable Pokemon since some have wanted to free Gigantamax Pokemon only - it's one of the few Gigantamax Pokemon that is actually stronger than its Dynamax counterpart and traps an opponent with its signature G-Max Move.
Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
First off, I’m far better than you at the game; take a step back and be humble please. I am one of the greatest of all time; put some respect on my name. I’m not attacking you, I’m just recognizing a fact.
Ive spent hours building but also actually playing the game and I reached top 20, but what does that have to do with my original statement? Nothing. Your straw man has nothing to do with what I was saying and talking about unless you're also saying that CM's point is for people who are bad and only theorymonning. Honestly I've never had someone as brave as you say that to me on here but it's truly amazing lol like I’m not mad just shook.
But anyway, no sir, I actually play. A lot of criticisms could apply to me, a lot. But that is not one of them. Please reread my posts and what I was actually saying big sir.
<3
if you think Dynamaxing is not broken and that there's easily accessible and consistent counterplay that proves this, just post replays
hell, challenge some of the better known pro-ban players IN THIS THREAD, and then upload the replays
Problem with stuff like Protect and Sub is that an opposing sweeper can still get the boosts unless you're flat-out immune to the Max Move
hell, challenge some of the better known pro-ban players IN THIS THREAD, and then upload the replays
Problem with stuff like Protect and Sub is that an opposing sweeper can still get the boosts unless you're flat-out immune to the Max Move
Moving onto bigger things, since this was a bug that was ongoing for a while:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...t-before-posting.3634749/page-85#post-8295731
Prior to this fix this made Substitute setup sweepers immune to Imposter Ditto while the Pokemon was Dynamaxed. It also made them immune to status moves too (barring Infiltrator shenanigans). This change likely changes a lot of things, but I think Substitute is still a solid move on a lot of Pokemon since it can help set up against super passive threats like Galar-Corsola.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...t-before-posting.3634749/page-85#post-8295731
Prior to this fix this made Substitute setup sweepers immune to Imposter Ditto while the Pokemon was Dynamaxed. It also made them immune to status moves too (barring Infiltrator shenanigans). This change likely changes a lot of things, but I think Substitute is still a solid move on a lot of Pokemon since it can help set up against super passive threats like Galar-Corsola.
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Pay attention man, you just puffed yourself so hard your shirt cracked under the armpits :p
I believe Dynamax...is rather likely to get banned. I also believe we should be sure we have discovered 100% of the mechanics of this feature before being able to hold a proper judgement on the matter. Finchinator has announced a suspect would likely come soon enough; let's wait for that to happen, and then people who voice opinions to keep Dynamax in the game will get a chance to speak up and vote. If there's a quickban, that won't happen. Let's not ask for a quickban.
Dynamaxing may be more complex, but it is obviously far more shallow than both Megas and Z-moves, and this isn't the case of "Lmao you thought this shitmon was shit, but it turned out to be viable after this discovery" either. Hell, no one really thought Dracozolt/vish were shitmons to begin with either. I even posted about them in AAA when paired up with Surge Surfer/Swift Swim. And unlike your example, people have been having issues about Dynamaxing even before day 1 and no new discovery has made it manageable, and we know pretty much everything about the mechanic.
Also, in case you were wondering, complexity =/= depth.
I would argue that Z-moves (especially) and even Megas (sometimes) actually had depth to them, where as Dynamaxing is complex, but completely shallow.
Since the comparison has already been made million time, I'll abridge it;
-Z-moves are easy to waste;
--You can accidentally kill your Pokemon before you do
--You can waste it on a resisted or immune Pokemon
--Your Z-user can have a bad match up against your opponent's team
-Dynamaxing gets rid of the first and third points 100%, and the second point 99.99% (like if you fight Shedinja without coverage or mold breaker)
-It's so hard to stop with all the boosts that people resort to Ditto as a reliable means to stop it
-Even without the boosts and if it was easier to waste, it would still be a comeback mechanic of several degenerate levels
The Substitute disappears when Dynamax is used in-game, which wasn't the case until recently on Pokemon Showdown.
G-Corsola will need to run Night Shade to consistent broke Sub, only normal type like Obstagoon can Sub in Corsola and without investiment many setup sweeper can have 101hp Sub...
Right. That's massive for the Sub BU Corviknight set then, as it can now easily be burned before it can get the power boosts, or severely damaged. Still a solid set I guess, but not as OP as I'd thought.
Probably one of the biggest bugs since the incorrect interaction between Dynamaxing and Choice Items (their effects used to be applied while dynamaxed), a number of threats benefit immensely from being able to sit behind a sub and accumulate boosts without fear of getting revenge killed by Ditto while having an extra layer of protection against defensive dynamax counterplay. Once fixed I'd expect Ditto to get even better than it already is while the likes of Corviknight, Togekiss, Hydreigon, Kommo-o etc to lose some of their value
Corviknight still have to many set that work whitout sub..
Sub NP Hydreigon and Belly Drumers like G-Tan and Eiscue take a hit as well
Has anyone managed to get any good usage out of Mew?
It seems like a good candidate for Dynamax, seeing as you can basically tailor it to lure in and KO just about anything cos (as far as I can tell) it gets a full power Max move out of every coverage type in the game? Can feasibly run either NP + 3 attacks, or SD +3 attacks to destroy any given defensive core, or take on offense with DD - setting Psychic Terrain to prevent priority. It also still gets Baton Pass which is pretty nice, and pairs well with Max moves already.
Just off the top of my head, few options could be:
Mew @ Psychic Seed / LO - Swords Dance / Zen Headbutt / Close Combat / Flying coverage (Acro or Brave Bird)
Mew @ LO - Nasty Plot / Psychic / Aura Sphere / Hurricane
Mew @ LO - Dragon Dance / Zen Headbutt / Close Combat / coverage
For support, it loses Softboiled / Roost for defensive sets, but still has a lot of tools for hazard setting. Has all of SR / Spikes / TSpikes, along with Taunt, Selfdestruct, even Transform though obviously not as good as Imposter Ditto.
Not sure what the best use of it is, but with all those options there must be at least one set that can make an impact.
It seems like a good candidate for Dynamax, seeing as you can basically tailor it to lure in and KO just about anything cos (as far as I can tell) it gets a full power Max move out of every coverage type in the game? Can feasibly run either NP + 3 attacks, or SD +3 attacks to destroy any given defensive core, or take on offense with DD - setting Psychic Terrain to prevent priority. It also still gets Baton Pass which is pretty nice, and pairs well with Max moves already.
Just off the top of my head, few options could be:
Mew @ Psychic Seed / LO - Swords Dance / Zen Headbutt / Close Combat / Flying coverage (Acro or Brave Bird)
Mew @ LO - Nasty Plot / Psychic / Aura Sphere / Hurricane
Mew @ LO - Dragon Dance / Zen Headbutt / Close Combat / coverage
For support, it loses Softboiled / Roost for defensive sets, but still has a lot of tools for hazard setting. Has all of SR / Spikes / TSpikes, along with Taunt, Selfdestruct, even Transform though obviously not as good as Imposter Ditto.
Not sure what the best use of it is, but with all those options there must be at least one set that can make an impact.
Yeah, to be honest this is a good thing, in the sense that it adds merit to the keep Dynamax unbanned side.
While that's true, in terms of Dynamaxing, Sub BU Corv was one of the most underrated yet devastating 'mons to do so. The sub gave it the chance to get at least +2 speed, thus outspeeding all it needs to to take souls. That, and the safety of not getting will-o'd or parahaxed. The was never bothered about Ditto to be honest, as it was just a free sub; but the other aspects of the change do hurt it pretty badly.
Still Dynamax have many positives traits to be banned for...
I really don´t like this mechanic because it is impossible to prepare to defend against it and generates an almost unstoppable snowball effect thanks to the buffos and climates ...
Example: Barraqweda is difficult to stop but thanks to Dynamax he can have +2 attack and rain without having someone to set the weather,
making it even harder to stop him for many teams
Well that's partly because it would just be theorymon at this point to say what the meta would be like without some of it's top mons, partly that you've missed numerous such lists of what would be broken next (togekiss, hydrei, dragapult, ttar). Just because you are not seeing them, doesn't mean they're not right there in front of you.
Not to mention, idk about you but the prospect of banning FIVE pokemon at once, while knowing we may need to ban more, is offensive. I feel pretty comfortable saying that in this case the community finds it far more agreeable to remove 1 mechanic than to start banning every mon.
And, not that this is a good argument in a policy discussion, but we've just been culled and lost a lot of standards, i don't wanna give up gyara, exca, ttar, gengar, too. The meta would be entirely unrecognizable.
This paragraph doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but smogon favorite 'slippery slope' is something that we fear. The whole concept of the slippery slope is that it's something you don't want to go down. And it's typically applied in the opposite fashion, as in 'if we unban blaze blaziken, we might as well unban arceus-bug w/o judgement, then we might as well.....'
We want to change as little as possible, thus we avoid slopes. I understand some may feel that removing DMax is a bigger change than banning a bunch of pokemon, but bro it is not.
And besides all of that, the successful use of many pokemon outside those 5 has proven the mechanic is broken, not gyarados. I posted on like day 4 saying let's give it it's fair shake, and it's had it. Shit is broken.
Also, note that despite multiple attempts to steer the conversation elsewhere, we stay focused on Dynamax. We can't stop talking about it. The conversation keeps going back to it. For every 1 post about an underrated set or a bug fix, there's 10 more about dynamax. If that's not a sign that something is centralizing, I dunno what to tell you.
Imagine telling someone last gen who was up in arms about Z-moves the following:
"Hey man, what if you could use 3 of them in a row? What if they boosted your stats at the same time? What if you didn't have to sacrifice your item and could still run Choice/Life Orb/Whatever you want? And what if you could DOUBLE your HP while you used them? And after you finished, you kept the stat boosts so that you can continue sweeping afterwards? I think that's balanced...right?"
They'd probably do what's best for them and back away slowly from you. Or if they're your friend, they'd recommend you seek some help.
And say we ban individual mons (Gyara/Hawlucha/Exca/Whatever). What happens when the next busted thing abusing dynamax comes along? Do we ban that too? What happens if we end up with 5-10 banned mons and there's still a problem? And that's just OU - what if the problem is even worse in lower tiers? And, what if we have to go back and ban dynamax in the end anyways? Shit would look like a circus. It would be embarrassing.
Let's get this joke of a mechanic (designed to be marketing hype for the new console pokemon game) out of here. Because at the end of the day, Gyarados should not be switching into stealth rocks, surviving thunderbolts, and going on to sweep your team afterwards - all without even having to think about it.
Imagine telling someone last gen who was up in arms about Z-moves the following:
"Hey man, what if you could use 3 of them in a row? What if they boosted your stats at the same time? What if you didn't have to sacrifice your item and could still run Choice/Life Orb/Whatever you want? And what if you could DOUBLE your HP while you used them? And after you finished, you kept the stat boosts so that you can continue sweeping afterwards? I think that's balanced...right?"
They'd probably do what's best for them and back away slowly from you. Or if they're your friend, they'd recommend you seek some help.
And say we ban individual mons (Gyara/Hawlucha/Exca/Whatever). What happens when the next busted thing abusing dynamax comes along? Do we ban that too? What happens if we end up with 5-10 banned mons and there's still a problem? And that's just OU - what if the problem is even worse in lower tiers? And, what if we have to go back and ban dynamax in the end anyways? Shit would look like a circus. It would be embarrassing.
Let's get this joke of a mechanic (designed to be marketing hype for the new console pokemon game) out of here. Because at the end of the day, Gyarados should not be switching into stealth rocks, surviving thunderbolts, and going on to sweep your team afterwards - all without even having to think about it.
Let me add on to this paragraph saying that Ditto will easily be listed as an OverUsed Pokemon once the first official usage stats come out. That'll mean the lower tiers will not have access to Ditto, removing what is almost a necessary form of counterplay to Dynamax. The lower tiers will be a Hell-scape without Ditto, in my opinion.
Alright if people don't want to talk about the single most important aspect of the metagame for some reason in the metagame discussion thread then let's just pretend dynamax is already banned lol
What are you guys hoping gets suspected? This is my ordered wishlist:
G-Darm (I love this guy but come on)
Dracovish (Same story)
Gigantamax-Gengar (yeah that's right, in this hypothetical post, gigantamax is allowed)
Dugtrio (interesting case of a mon that is actually being kept in check by dynamax)
Aegislash (honestly probably fine but its Aegislash yo)
What are you guys hoping gets suspected? This is my ordered wishlist:
G-Darm (I love this guy but come on)
Dracovish (Same story)
Gigantamax-Gengar (yeah that's right, in this hypothetical post, gigantamax is allowed)
Dugtrio (interesting case of a mon that is actually being kept in check by dynamax)
Aegislash (honestly probably fine but its Aegislash yo)
Agreed, Dynamax has had its fair shake. Sadly, the meta it produces is overall unhealthy IMO, but lets look at something just a touch more objective:
| Pro | Con |
| Pushes stall out of the meta | Completely stunts team building. Want to run not Ditto? Too bad. Think you can get by without haze? Ha! Good luck stopping the snowball |
| Potentially provides a really cool high moment for your favorite 'mon that can be used by any 'mon | Almost singlehandedly stops certain strategies from being possible |
| Has the potential to allow for outplays with proper timing of dynamax | Broken interactions with held items add a metric ton of hidden power to certain pokemon |
| Ignores most if not all defensive counterplay | |
| Benefits Pokemon who would already likely be strong much more than it benefits weaker mons (opening the power gap even further) | |
| The sheer number of potential dynamaxers leans so far into the unknown that it borderlines on randomness | |
| Favors the aggressive team more heavily than is reasonable | |
| Favors high speed threats who can abuse the Max moves to kill first |
Now, people may argue my point on stall, but I stand firm that stall being strong is unhealthy for the meta game. The fact that Dynamax keeps stall in check is the biggest reason to keep it in the game. Despite that reason, the fact that Ditto is mandatory on every team because of Dynamax is enough for me to outweigh the whole thing. You essentially lose a Pokemon slot in teambuilding thanks to it, and with the other myriad factors (especially lack of counterplay) that makes it more of a negative than a positive. I feel like stall cores are much weaker than they were last gen to begin with, plus the number of good setup sweepers and wallbreakers seems to have risen in proportion to stall 'mons so I would rather see us balance the meta with that in mind. Also, there are a LOT of pokemon who would be needlessly banned to try and balance Dynamax.
Alrighty, I think the dynamax discussion has seen enough light of day. I’m not trying to have several pages of this thread taken up by multiple 2-3 line posts of “dynamax breaks the game”. Yes, I know the meta heavily revolves around the mechanic right now, but that doesn’t mean we need to regurgitate info already posted. I wanted to echo Finch’s post
- we can expect some tiering action in the near future, so let’s hold off on discussing it for now unless you’re adding something new to the discussion (an underused dynamax user, some sort of mechanic i.e. sub in the previous posts, etc).
I’ve been deleting posts lacking substance related to dynamaxing and will continue to do so if it adds nothing new. Thanks everyone for your understanding!
- we can expect some tiering action in the near future, so let’s hold off on discussing it for now unless you’re adding something new to the discussion (an underused dynamax user, some sort of mechanic i.e. sub in the previous posts, etc).
I’ve been deleting posts lacking substance related to dynamaxing and will continue to do so if it adds nothing new. Thanks everyone for your understanding!
Hi I'm alive and feel like posting my thoughts on what I've been playing with.
- SubBulk Corviknight completely startled me with how effective it is. I was originally turned off by its lack of any high stats, but it's deceptively bulky, and the number of things it's able to set up on and beat through its typing and Pressure can feel like a bit much sometimes. I think the Substitute changes will definitely have an effect, but I typically don't end up Dynamaxing Corviknight against teams that rely on status moves that often anyways, since they tend to be passive things like Corsola or Pex, where you tend not to need the speed boosts anyways. Ditto tends to struggle with beating Corviknight in the first place due to being unable to do a ton of damage with a resisted attack and being so prone to PP stall, so I'm not exactly cut up about it being able to copy it either.
- Corsola felt really strong at release, but feels like its gotten weaker as people start making more optimized teams rather than just throwing on whatever catches their eyes at the time. The lack of any passive recovery hurts this thing so bad, as it makes it feel incredibly easy to chip away with using residual damage and throwaway attacks, and unlike Chansey it can't heal off its status. Toxapex just annoys the shit out of this thing so hard, with Toxic Spikes being a huge thorn in Corsola's side. Not to say its a bad mon, its still one of the best catch-all physical walls in the tier, but it definitely feels much more vulnerable now.
- ExcaTar is my go-to hazard control core for offense atm. Not exactly creative teambuilding, but with a lot of the good hazard removal mons gone, its really tempting to just slap these two onto a team and take advantage of the pile of strengths they offer. Excadrill in particular feels like a much more flexible Pokemon, with its ability to set its own sand with Max Rockfall as well as gain its own speed boosts by KOing a low HP mon with Rapid Spin.
- Hatterene seems to be pretty damn solid. Its type coverage letting it to pull apart FerroPex cores, CM allowing it to break a lot of defensive backbones and TR being a really solid cleaner that seems a bit unprepared for. It doesn't feel overbearing exactly, at least compared to some other things, but its very solid.
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