Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

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How's Polteageist looking? I've been trying to build a team around him, or a good core, and I've been having mixed results. Do you guys have any suggestions or experience using him?
 
I can see your point. Lapras has the advantage of firing of a Base 120-130 BP Ice move while setting up it's screens so it isn't giving away turns while doing so. And between that and Max Geyser, there aren't a lot of mons that comfortably switch in and it can set up the rain for something like Dracovish or Barraskewda while doubling their bulk with veil. You wouldn't primarily be depending on Lapras to set up rain, but there's utility there. Since it's decently slow, it's rain would get set over most other mons using Max moves that change weather.


Lapras is the one supporting the team with veil and potential rain support. I don't really think that Lapras is supposed to be abusing much. It's supposed to be paired with teammates that benefit from it's support. Outside of it's G-Max, I guess there's options like Freeze Dry, Perish Song, etc that give it decent utility.
If you aren't abusing with your G/D-max then you are doing something VERY wrong. Using G-max lapras just puts you at a disadvantage. Unlike ninetales/grimsnarl you can only set up the screens once, so even with light clay you only have 8 turns to capitalise enough that the game is won, whereas with other screeners you can try again.
Also, if you use lapras' G-max move on its first turn of gmax you have to choose between switching out of G-max or wasting screen turns. Not to mention, that you are at a massive disadvantage by using your dynamax to set screens. In this meta, it will be hard to snowball when you dont have D-max and you opponent does. At the very least they should be able to cease you attempt to sweep with their own Dmax mon, and if they do that you are left with a screens team without screens and also a lapras.
 

Glalie @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Protect
- Freeze Dry

0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Glalie: 63-75 (17.3 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO

The Pex is nothing to you. Taunt so you can't get Hazed and spam Sub and Protect and they can't do shit, with some luck you become unbreakable by slow, bulky teams pretty quickly. If you're running a more defensively slanted team, you better bring Unaware so you don't lose to this thing! Oh wait, the only available Unaware users are Pyukumuku, Quagsire, and Swoobat? Well too bad, looks like you lose. Honestly Glalie seems like it could become yet another factor warping defensive counterplay in this tier, but I guess we can't really tell until we try it out. It does seem fun as hell though which is a plus.
 
Am I wrong to think Goodra is possibly mad underated right now? I mean it has the potential to deal with many big offesnive and defnesive threats in the meta right now.

Goodra @ Assult Vest
Ability : Hydration/Gooey
Nature : Bold
252 HP EV 248 DEF EV 8 SDEF EV

Dragon Pulse
Fire Blast
Thunderbolt
Sludge Wave


it can tank hits and take out Gyrados, Ferrothron, Dragapult and even Clefable and Hatterne with the right coverage moves and with Spikes/Stealth Rock Damage. Maybe the EV investment needs to be reworked.

Really any of its abilites will work for a specific niche. Hydration will be the most ideal for rain teams of course
 
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Dynamax Should Leave NOW

The fact that dynamax exists for every single pokemon means that it would be impossible to keep balance between offensive and defensive teams. Reasoning below.

If offensive teams are capable of easily breaking through defensive team using dynamax:
In this case defensive teams would not stand a chance against offensive teams, making them unviable.

If offensive team are not capable of easily breaking through defensive team using dynamax:
In this case, offensive teams would struggle even more breaking through defensive teams without dynamax, possibly just being completely walled when dynamax is not active. Even when dynamax is active, it still has to be played at the very right time with the right matchup and right prediction, since you have to break the defensive backbone of opposing team in three turns. This being the only chance to break through defensive teams is too much of a requirement for offensive teams, and it makes offensive teams unviable.

Combining them together, stallbreaking will be extremely centralized in the three turns of dynamaxing, which I believe will be very unhealthy for the meta no matter whether its offense or defense being stronger.

(Copied from another place ive posted in which apparently im not supposed to post
 
I think that the people who are pro- and anti-ban dynamax are talking past each other a bit. To make an informed decision, people should properly understand each side of the argument.

People are countering the argument that both sides have access with the response that both sides have access to, say, Zacian, as well. The point I believe that the anti-banners want to make is that there's a difference in opportunity cost. Using Zacian means not using another Pokémon. Forcing use of one option instead of another is centralisation. There is no opportunity cost to dynamaxing, so nothing is left out by doing so. The pro-banners reply that you are still forced to dynamax something. The anti-banners consider that argument of centralisation to be equivalent to the argument that the meta is centralised around switching and that dynamaxing should be considered a similarly fundamental mechanic.

The pro-banners dislike the centralisation around three turns. The anti-banners don't consider this a problem. They like the fact that the flow of the match can suddenly change. The pro-banners see this as an indicator of less competitiveness, as someone winning can suddenly lose. The anti-banners see it as more "dynamic" as someone can react to a bad position and that there is an additional element that needs to be accounted for.

The pro-banners dislike the unpredictability of dynamaxing. The anti-banners counter that some Mon are better at dynamaxing than others, proving that there is some predictability. The pro-banners respond that you can change your mind about what to dynamax in order to add unpredictability. The anti-banners like this as it moves choice from the team-building stage to the battling stage and thus is more reactive and allows more diversity from the same team. The pro-banners dislike this as the skill in team-building is an important part of the game.

The pro-banners dislike the advantages of dynamaxing first. The anti-banners respond that choosing when to dynamax is a skill in itself. After all, we don't have everyone dynamaxing turn 1 in every match. You have to be wary of things like ditto reverse-sweeping and the fact that you can't use status moves in dynamax, meaning you usually need to set up first.

The possibility of reverse-sweeping is seen as bad by pro-banners as a winning player can suddenly lose, but good by anti-banners as preparing for a possible reverse-sweep is another skill to manage.
 
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Ophion

The Walls are Crumbling
is a Pre-Contributor
I'm not a terrible player and I enjoy the mechanic, i'm also a fan of our smogon generations having themes and being distinct from one another. This is to make things like tours more interesting, as the formats are vastly different from one another, and makes jumping between generations an experience in itself. That said while I've said I'm in favor of keeping the dmax as the gen 8 thing I'd be happy to concede the point with just the dexit thing and see where it goes from there.

The smogon meta of the generation needs to have a flavor otherwise I am fairly sure people are going to get bored. While we all love DPPT I don't think we would look at it so fondly with similar metagames 10 years down the line.
So we should make the game less competitive and worse for players to prep for and play just because it’s the gens gimmick and you’re scared it’d make the tier dull if it left? You made no effort to try and argue actual reasons as to why dynamax isn’t broken. Why should we even care what Gamefreak calls the defining mechanic of the gen (the gimmick)? Our tiering philosophy is a lot more complex and sophisticated than that and we shouldn’t be limiting ourselves like that. Those “themes” are just mechanics of the gen and how we play them differently. As has been said a trillion times in this thread alone, the way dynamax alters how we play is unhealthy and overcentralizing, so we shouldn’t care cause it’s fun to watch (debatable) and it doesn’t make the tier “too stale”. I think the vast majority of good players would rather have a stale metagame that’s stable balance wise than a clusterfuck of bullshit that’s nearly unplayable that’ll have the same spammed threats that’ll eventually becoming boring anyway. Sorry for being so scattered.
 
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I wanted to bring up an old face that got an intresting new gimmick this gen: Jolteon. At first glance, Jolteon looks weak without access to HP or even Signal beam anymore, but It and all it's eevee linage gained access to Copycat this generation. I've been running a Modest Life orb Quick Feet set to switch into wisps and toxic.
SpA 252/ Speed 252/ Spdef 4
Quick Feet
Item: Life Orb
Modest
Thunderbolt
Volt Switch
Shadow Ball
Copycat

With rocks up, Shadow Ball will be a guaranteed KO and Jolteon can take a Specs hit from any special attack Dragapult can throw out bar Draco or Dragon Pulse ( chance of ko) after taking SR damage. Why Copycat? From my observations, with Garchomp and Dragonite gone, it appears that most people are running special set's for most dragon's. A draco meteor copied from Jolteon can safely ohko mostly of these mons, most notably hydregion and noivern. This would also allow Jolteon to switch into pex to take a scaled and hopefully get the burn to trigger Quick feet.
Copycat would also allow you to get off your own entry hazards copied from things it threatens like Araquanid Sticky web or spikes qwlifish.
 
Theorycrafting for a bit here, since Utility Umbrella hasn't been implemented to PS yet unfortunately:

Heliolisk @ Utility Umbrella
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt / Parabolic Charge / Discharge / Thunder
- Hyper Voice / Surf / Focus Blast / Dark Pulse / Dragon Pulse
- Weather Ball / Surf / Focus Blast / Dark Pulse / Dragon Pulse

Utility Umbrella makes the holder act as if they are not currently in the sun or in the rain, causing Dry Skin to not hurt the holder even in the sun. This allows Heliolisk to act as a Water Absorb stand-in for Sun teams without taking damage from the weather it would find itself in, which is an exceptional boon for an Electric-type that would immediately pressure those water types out. It also ignores the damage bonus fire moves get against it at the same time, though Dry Skin's x1.25 damage taken from Fire-type attacks does still apply. While Solar Power would boost Heliolisk's damage output even further in the sun, it wears it down far too quickly, making it less than helpful given its frailty, and would remove its ability to come in on water types for free.

It has also gained access to Weather Ball, giving it Fire-type coverage against the likes of Ferrothorn while in the sun, and as one of the very few sort-of-viable Normal types in the game, it is able to switch into Ghost-type attacks safely. Hyper Voice as the main Normal-type STAB is self-explanatory, hitting through Substitutes being helpful as always, though it can be subbed for coverage if necessary.

The Electric-type stab of choice depends on what you prefer. Thunder hits the hardest, and accuracy is still guaranteed in Rain despite the umbrella, giving it an excellent match-up against Rain teams, and Parabolic Charge, while certainly the weakest of the bunch, improves Heliolisk's longevity significantly, much like Draining Kiss does for Hatterene.

With its excellent speed tier and great coverage options (especially in the weather), I really do believe Heliolisk has a chance to become a great Electric-type pick, regardless of the tier it finds itself in.
 
How's Polteageist looking? I've been trying to build a team around him, or a good core, and I've been having mixed results. Do you guys have any suggestions or experience using him?
Polteageist's best set is probably shell smash/shadow ball/giga drain/stored power , max speed and s.pa. I haven't used polteageist much but i'm sure it would greatly benefit from Grimmsnarl's abilty ro set up screens with prankster and to weaken dark types for Polteageist.
 
What are you guys hoping gets suspected?
Aegislash (honestly probably fine but its Aegislash yo)
This sort of mentality is a problem too. Okay we’ve banned Dynamax. Now what else can we ban? And when something does get banned, it remains banned just because it has a reputation, regardless of what happens to the evolving metagame and whether it would actually be fine to unban. A classic example is Darkrai. Only above average stats, a signature move that was nerfed so bad it’s unusable, barren movepool, subpar ability, most definitely would have been fine in OU last Gen, yet it’s banned because it’s the scary Darkrai with a reputation that’s no longer warranted.

The games haven’t even been out two weeks yet. We still haven’t got showdown working exactly like it should with all the new Pokémon and changes. New and altered battle mechanics are still being discovered every day. People are still experimenting with new concepts. And here you are talking about what to ban after we ban Dynamax, which itself hasn’t even been banned yet! Future, future bans!
 
Hey people, I would like to share a set and a team which I've been enjoying a lot in gen8 ladder. I made my way to top1 without much trouble using several teams, but this one is by far my favourite (yeah many people have similar looking stuff but try to be creative in gen8). It utilizes RK9 to its fullest potential so I really want to share it :3


RK9 (Arcanine) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Snarl
- Flamethrower
- Morning Sun

I came up with this set after hurting my head badly trying to find a solution to darmanitan, clef and Trickroom hat all in one slot. Also "deals" with dragapult, mimikyu, corviknight, ferro. I know it looks kinda meh at first glance, but the truth is that many teams struggle to get rid of rk9 once its on the field. Lemme explain how it beats clef: clef normally runs modest LO+3 attacks (moon, flame and thunder), cuz unlike in smou, it doesnt have softboiled to stall out ferro's gyroball. So you have to run flame for it, the necessary thunder for toxapex, moon for stab. So rk9 becomes able to counter it since flame does great damage to offensive clef which in return cannot touch you. Snarl helps stalling OTR hat as well as stalling specs pult and random special attackers. Being a firetype with intimidate helps a lot versus darmanitan, because only EQ can damage rk9. In the team I made with it, rk9 is a soft darm check: yes, EQ will KO it, but as everyone knows, darm is impossible to check, so having an ice resist that doesnt fear uturn is p dope.

In this team it compliments corvi very well since together they force darm to actually predict instead of iciclecrashing like a dumbass. I started with the last 5 mons and added rk9 since it fixed the darm/clef/hat issue while being a switchin to ferro (no, clef isnt really a switchin when offensive).


RK9 Balance by Ktut



RK9 (Arcanine) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Snarl
- Flamethrower
- Morning Sun

Dragapult @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- U-turn

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Defog
- Roost

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Toxic

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Transform

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower
- Thunder
- Moonlight


I would usually not post a team here but I really love how this rk9 works in this particular team + several people wanted to know about it.

I started with clefable+toad+corvi because it was a balanced core I wanted to try, in particular clef which is actually good when orb 3 attacks. It seems most people came to the same conclusion regarding clef: it has to be offensive cuz fuck moonlight, fuck pex, fuck ferro, fuck whack stall teams. No chansey, free clef. I started with max spdef toad and full def corviknight: however hatterene soon changed my plans, and I had to make corvi spdef with ironhead. Uturn is a great move, especially with ditto: you send corv on drill or gyara, and then pivot out safely into ditto. Its been working wonders; ironhead helps a lot vs hat and well, ttar too ig. Clef isnt supposed to switch into anything really, just stops ferro from leech spamming and pex from walling everything. Once you have clef on the field, proceed to kill something, and dynamax if needed: lifeorb+dynamoves+200% HP turns clef into a monster. RK9 is the selling point of the team: you indeed need it not to instalose vs clef, darm and to a lesser extent, hat. Pult is standard, I run timid because I want to outspeed barraskewda, scarf dracovish/+1 zolt which kinda exist. Also helps in speed ties. Ditto is there because its the gen8 landorus ;; Answer to drill gyara you name it.

Also, why the hell am i a noob using mirror armor corviknight?? Eh. It's actually great: you can 1v1 specs dragapult and aegislash which spam shadowball to drop your spdef. Also helps walling MAx darkness and MAx ghost (both drop your stats). As you can see the team is short of ghost resists so I'm doing the best I can.

Why you need Mirror Armor: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1017026804-dfqusrwzycph5roe4h7vkiywd290u2ipw (turn 15+)


I hope you enjoyed this team adapted as well as possible to the meta, feel free to use it. I made 252/252 spreads cuz I didnt see what particular member would need a "clever" spread. Feel free to change that too, in particular speed creeping. Ban Darm, Lucha and Gyara btw. Assuming that nat.dex will be without dynamax, dont ban it in regular swsh: whats even the point of playing it if nothing good is available and you can't dynamax to feel different from natdex.

-Ktut
Do you mind sharing other teams you've used to climb to #1? I'm in a heavy brainstorming phase and am curious as to what else you've used along the way.
 
What have you guys been finding are the best counters to the legion of Mystical Fire Fairies in this meta?
- I was going to say Duraludon but it has awful SpD and is hurt bad by M.Fire's SpA drop.
- Goodra seems like a good pick, despite its weakness; Specs Sludge Wave outspeeds, has a 6.3% chance (lol) to OHKO 252 HP Hatterene, and takes "only" 65.4 - 77.2% from Dazzling Gleam. But if Hatt has any circumstances in her favour (Trick Room, CM boosts, or Light Screen) you lose.
- Dracovish can switch into M.Fire and OHKO unless Reflect is up, but dies instantly if the Hatt predicts, and loses if Hatt G-maxes.
- Flash Fire Chandelure is a good option for Hatt specifically, I'm not sure how any of these Pokémon fare against the other Fairies.

So the answer is, basically, nothing? Thanks Game Freak. This final boss of a Pokémon dealt 80% to a Charizard on the switch-in with Max Flare after a couple boosts.

I know for CM Draining Kiss Hatt I can more often than not look at my opponent's lineup and pretty reliably know whether she'll murder them or not. The one thing that's given this set the most trouble so far is Substitute, particularly Hydreigon. If you can get a Sub up you're gucci and can block a nuke just long enough to guarantee a 2HKO.

One thing to keep in mind is that Magic Bounce blocks Whirlwind/Roar and Hatterene is immune to Dragon Tail because we live in hell.
 
- I was going to say Duraludon but it has awful SpD and is hurt bad by M.Fire's SpA drop.
- Goodra seems like a good pick, despite its weakness; Specs Sludge Wave outspeeds, has a 6.3% chance (lol) to OHKO 252 HP Hatterene, and takes "only" 65.4 - 77.2% from Dazzling Gleam. But if Hatt has any circumstances in her favour (Trick Room, CM boosts, or Light Screen) you lose.
- Dracovish can switch into M.Fire and OHKO unless Reflect is up, but dies instantly if the Hatt predicts, and loses if Hatt G-maxes.
- Flash Fire Chandelure is a good option for Hatt specifically, I'm not sure how any of these Pokémon fare against the other Fairies.

So the answer is, basically, nothing? Thanks Game Freak. This final boss of a Pokémon dealt 80% to a Charizard on the switch-in with Max Flare after a couple boosts.

I know for CM Draining Kiss Hatt I can more often than not look at my opponent's lineup and pretty reliably know whether she'll murder them or not. The one thing that's given this set the most trouble so far is Substitute, particularly Hydreigon. If you can get a Sub up you're gucci and can block a nuke just long enough to guarantee a 2HKO.

One thing to keep in mind is that Magic Bounce blocks Whirlwind/Roar and Hatterene is immune to Dragon Tail because we live in hell.
Mirror Armor Corviknight bounces back the SpA-drop, since it's faster than Hatt, it stalls it out.
 
black skarmory
Assuming no CM boosts... I have to say, as much as I dislike Dexit on principle, it has made me appreciate how well the current pool of mons tends to fit together cooperatively and competitively. Mirror Corvi stalling out M.Fire faires is a great example. Otherwise Hatt could dmax and Flare on a suspected Corvi switch and then the opponent just loses I guess? This mechanic is egregious.

On that note, what are the top Corvi counters? Toxtricity seems great on account of resisting Flying/Fighting but I've not used it myself yet. Always struggle to slot a 4x Ground-weak mon onto teams that somehow inevitably end up being predominantly Ground-weak already...Golisopod's been great to help with that though.
 
- I was going to say Duraludon but it has awful SpD and is hurt bad by M.Fire's SpA drop.
- Goodra seems like a good pick, despite its weakness; Specs Sludge Wave outspeeds, has a 6.3% chance (lol) to OHKO 252 HP Hatterene, and takes "only" 65.4 - 77.2% from Dazzling Gleam. But if Hatt has any circumstances in her favour (Trick Room, CM boosts, or Light Screen) you lose.
- Dracovish can switch into M.Fire and OHKO unless Reflect is up, but dies instantly if the Hatt predicts, and loses if Hatt G-maxes.
- Flash Fire Chandelure is a good option for Hatt specifically, I'm not sure how any of these Pokémon fare against the other Fairies.

So the answer is, basically, nothing? Thanks Game Freak. This final boss of a Pokémon dealt 80% to a Charizard on the switch-in with Max Flare after a couple boosts.

I know for CM Draining Kiss Hatt I can more often than not look at my opponent's lineup and pretty reliably know whether she'll murder them or not. The one thing that's given this set the most trouble so far is Substitute, particularly Hydreigon. If you can get a Sub up you're gucci and can block a nuke just long enough to guarantee a 2HKO.

One thing to keep in mind is that Magic Bounce blocks Whirlwind/Roar and Hatterene is immune to Dragon Tail because we live in hell.
Sp. Def Mirror Armor Corviknight with Iron Head takes a big bird dump on Mystical Fire fairies. Every turn they hit you they lower their own Sp. Atk, while you roost off the damage or threaten with Iron Head. Continuing to use mystical fire on you is like signing their own death warrant as they get weaker every turn. After a few turns the damage isn't threatening and you can choose to U-Turn and set up on them if they keep trying (though they usually give up).

Mirror Armor also negates the Sp. Def drop from Shadow Ball and reflects back Intimidate, among other things. Awesome utility
 
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Colonel M

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This sort of mentality is a problem too. Okay we’ve banned Dynamax. Now what else can we ban? And when something does get banned, it remains banned just because it has a reputation, regardless of what happens to the evolving metagame and whether it would actually be fine to unban. A classic example is Darkrai. Only above average stats, a signature move that was nerfed so bad it’s unusable, barren movepool, subpar ability, most definitely would have been fine in OU last Gen, yet it’s banned because it’s the scary Darkrai with a reputation that’s no longer warranted.

The games haven’t even been out two weeks yet. We still haven’t got showdown working exactly like it should with all the new Pokémon and changes. New and altered battle mechanics are still being discovered every day. People are still experimenting with new concepts. And here you are talking about what to ban after we ban Dynamax, which itself hasn’t even been banned yet! Future, future bans!
Wut.

Darkrai last generation would have been rather insane for OU to handle. You can argue that it has "mediocre" stats all you want, but it had the right stats to pull off what it had to do. Dark Void nerf hurt, but then you have Z Crystals that would have significantly boosted its damage output. Even ignoring past precedent I think freeing Darkrai would have been a major step backwards for the metagame. I respect caution in wanting to suspect and prevent a witch hunt, but there are Pokemon currently that do have a significant negative impact on the metagame currently with Dynamax still in effect (Darmanitan is one I agree with a lot of people on being kinda broken), and while I think some like going for Aegislash atm is a little misguided I can certainly see why they may think it too.

Your attitude in the thread in general perplexes me. Is there something you feel that Smogon has done wrong over the years? We (Smogon) have unbanned many Pokemon and allowed them to be tested at the beginning of gens beforehand (Gen 5 we even let Darkrai free!). We try to be fair in our suspect tests and take caution on banning and keeping things around I feel. Maybe some of the community disagrees and I can respect constructive criticism, but I have yet to see anything constructive really come from your posts.
 
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Hey guys, have you heard of the anti-ban argument of countering opposing Dynamaxes with your own? Well, here's the embodiment of that argument (unless it's unreleased, but the teambuilder says it's legal):

Grimmsnarl-Gmax (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Atk / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Darkest Lariat
- Substitute

Grimmsnarl's GMax move has Yawn's effect, meaning it either forces your opponent to switch out, or having a sitting (or should I say sleeping) duck for around 1-3 turns. Also since most DMax abusers are physical attackers, Bulk Up's Defense boost helps you surviving the first hit as you use Max Snooze, while you can either use Max Guard, use Snooze again to force even more switches, or boost your attack even more with Max Knuckle. However, it's low Speed prevents you from sweeping the opposing team, meaning it's exclusively relegated to Stallbreaking (most stall teams depend exclusively on Mandibuzz ar their Dark resist) and anti-DMax jobs. It's EV spread allows you to outspeed Bulk Up Corviknight, while Darkest Lariat allows you to win Bulk Up wars as it's ignores the opponent's boosts.
 
Like most losing arguments, the ppl for dynamax are making excuses instead of arguments.

Reminder that dynamax is so extreme that you cannot just ban the pokemon's dynamax form since its not locked to a single item.

It is not like mega where you can just ban the item which is what they did to things like kanga and gengar. imagine if mega wasn't locked behind an item? then would the council just ban kangaskhan? a pokemon that was historically UU->PU

ppl arguing that you have to know when to dynamax LOL

so you have to know when to use ur win condition. how does that make it any different than megas? what happens if u lead w. mega lopunny first turn and try to sweep from the beginning? what happens to mega swampert without rain?

oh right, dynamax is unpredictable and offers way more bs

they'll get fucking destroyed. understanding wincons of both parties is just another important factor in competitive battling and is in all competitions. dynamax brings unpredictability in this matter which quoting ninjadog from the LC ban leads to a lot of 50/50s.

also due to the new pokemon + removed pokemon + other new stuff like moveset changes etc the meta will still shake up and shift even if dynamax wasn't a thing.

there is not much reason to keep dynamax in the game.
 
So I think I have found the most sturdy defensive check to Vish (and G-Darm to an extent): Physically Defensive Rocky Helmet Toxapex

Toxapex @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 DEF / 4 SPD
Impish
- Scald
- Haze
- Recover
- Baneful Bunker

The secret lies in Baneful Bunker. Not only do the physical attacker take Rocky Helmet damage + poisoned if it's a contact move. Predict a Psychic Fangs? BB and switch to your Dark-type. Predict an Earthquake? BB and switch to your Flying type/Levitate mon. Scarf Vish Earthquake does not even 2HKO so you can stall them out by spamming Recover. I think Pex running full physical defense is pretty sweet right now.
 
On that note, what are the top Corvi counters?

Jellicent @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Hex / Scald
- Strength Sap / Recover

I've already posted about this mon but it's not talked enough about it. You outspeed uninvested Corviknight with this spread and shut it down with Taunt, something Corsola is unable to do. It's the closest thing we have to a defensive Darmanitan check and forces Dracovish to use its coverage. I'm sure Jellicent will be an OU staple whenever if Dynamax gets banned.

Defensive Arcanine could work aswell if your team is weak to Ferro, but It's not that good and it's quite weak to most dynamax sweepers anyway
 
Mirror Armor Corviknight bounces back the SpA-drop, since it's faster than Hatt, it stalls it out.
Hatt has access to Mystical Fire and it a very common move for the CM set of it 252+ SpA Hatterene Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 214-252 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery while 0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 196 HP / 4 Def Hatterene: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery so i can't see a way of it out stall it unless your spam roost and it can CM on a predict roost if these spread are not the correct version anymore please let me so i can make a couple of changes
 
Continuing to use mystical fire on you is like signing their own death warrant
A competent opponent ought to switch to a Corvi counter instead of continuing to M.Fire, and now you're on the back foot — or preemptively dmax, wherein a +1 LO Max Flare is a guaranteed OHKO and so is +2 Lefties. This is why I ultimately oppose the mechanic, even if it can make for engaging and tense decisionmaking; the ability to blow through potential counters destabilizes delicate matchup balance and lets any player ignore the food chain, turning hard counters into soft counters.

Unless of course the Corvi just dmaxes and busts through its counter. Nice.

Jellicent's pretty cash money though, this meta makes me nostalgic for gen 5. Blocking Vish & Darm on top of Corvi is HUGE.
 
A competent opponent ought to switch to a Corvi counter instead of continuing to M.Fire, and now you're on the back foot — or preemptively dmax, wherein a +1 LO Max Flare is a guaranteed OHKO and so is +2 Lefties. This is why I ultimately oppose the mechanic, even if it can make for engaging and tense decisionmaking; the ability to blow through potential counters destabilizes delicate matchup balance and lets any player ignore the food chain, turning hard counters into soft counters.

Unless of course the Corvi just dmaxes and busts through its counter. Nice.

Jellicent's pretty cash money though, this meta makes me nostalgic for gen 5. Blocking Vish & Darm on top of Corvi is HUGE.
Well yes, usually the gameplan is to roost off the initial damage and then u-turn the incoming switch. And yes, dynamax invalidates this strategy (as it does almost any strategy you come up with to handle a particular pokemon). Fun times.

Hatt has access to Mystical Fire and it a very common move for the CM set of it 252+ SpA Hatterene Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 214-252 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery while 0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 196 HP / 4 Def Hatterene: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery so i can't see a way of it out stall it unless your spam roost and it can CM on a predict roost if these spread are not the correct version anymore please let me so i can make a couple of changes
Mystical Fire drops the opponent's Sp. Attack by 1 stage. Mirror Armor from Corviknight reflects this stat drop back to Hatterene, meaning it drops it's own Sp. Atk by 1 every time it uses it.
 
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