Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Boom Boom Pow

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If your concern is fun and not competition why are you so concerned about the competitive balance of OU? Smogon does not exist to make Pokémon "more fun" but rather to make it more competitive.
Well that's fine but there's no reason that the metagame can't be made more interesting and accessible at the same time. Every generation the OU tier eventually becomes the same mix of dominant mons and strategies, which can become stagnant for players. Dominant strategies are inevitable to some degree but there should at least be uncertainty involved in the game and the freedom for players to try out new strategies against the current meta. This generation doesn't have many pokemon and as a consequence you're not going to see many newer strategies emerge. It has been given a new mechanic however, that could potentially inject greater diversity into the strategies available with the few mons it has.

The other issue is that you're not actually going to be playing the Sword and Shield metagame if you outright ban one its key mechanics, you're going to be playing a poor facsimile of it. Smogon has always done that to a degree to keep the meta fair and balanced but its never outright banned an entire mechanic. And this is the generation defining mechanic at the moment, if its banned then we won't actually be simulating the Sword and Shield game. We should at the very least see how things pan out and see if players invent strategies that allow them to deal with Dynamaxing or limit dynamaxing itself.
 
I won’t either ramble on or pretend to be a competitive expert on the game, but I will share a few observations, not about gameplay, but about the equally important aspect of teambuilding.

For me, more than half the fun in the game comes from building my own homebrews, weather they are incredible, or just average. The win is still juicy, and the piloting of the team can still be incredibly fun for me, but a good chunk of satisfaction for me always comes from the knowledge that my team—my creation—won.

But as an avid teambuilder, I find myself frustrated with the limited pool of competitive combinations. And while I’ll spare you the process, I came to an unsettling realization:

Every good team is either hyper offensive, very offense oriented, or carries a ditto. This should speak for itself.

For me, I hate having only 5 team slots to cover my teams numerous weakness, so while I might be unablebe to, if I can I’d be an advocate for banning Dynamax.

Forgive me for any typos, this was typed on a phone.
 
I won’t either ramble on or pretend to be a competitive expert on the game, but I will share a few observations, not about gameplay, but about the equally important aspect of teambuilding.

For me, more than half the fun in the game comes from building my own homebrews, weather they are incredible, or just average. The win is still juicy, and the piloting of the team can still be incredibly fun for me, but a good chunk of satisfaction for me always comes from the knowledge that my team—my creation—won.

But as an avid teambuilder, I find myself frustrated with the limited pool of competitive combinations. And while I’ll spare you the process, I came to an unsettling realization:

Every good team is either hyper offensive, very offense oriented, or carries a ditto. This should speak for itself.

For me, I hate having only 5 team slots to cover my teams numerous weakness, so while I might be unablebe to, if I can I’d be an advocate for banning Dynamax.

Forgive me for any typos, this was typed on a phone.
I'd take that a step further. You NEED a water immunity unless you want to get wiped a dracovish, you need some kind of darm psuedo-check since it doesn't really have a counter, and you need a ditto. If you don't have these, you can't play the game at the upper level imo, at least not without massively outplaying an opponent with a superior position from the get go. That level of constraint in teambuilding is something I would expect from a meta like balanced hackmons.

The key difference here is that balanced hackmons has nearly infinite possibilities. SSOU has a very confined and constrained set of competitive pokemon. Someone mentioned this earlier, but if you sort the builder by steel type, rapid spin, or defog, you realize you have very, very few options. This combined with the sheer strain on teambuilding requires Ditto in the first slot, Siesmitoad/jellicent, Toxapex/Rotom W/Rotom H, and now you can consider what archetype you want to play. Imo, I completely agree with your sentiment, and it really is a damn shame when I compare it to the wealth of options available last gen.

It's actually why I like mons like Landorous. They offer so much role compression that you can afford to put a Kyurem on your team or a few BL mons and still have your team function.

Well that's fine but there's no reason that the metagame can't be made more interesting and accessible at the same time. Every generation the OU tier eventually becomes the same mix of dominant mons and strategies, which can become stagnant for players. Dominant strategies are inevitable to some degree but there should at least be uncertainty involved in the game and the freedom for players to try out new strategies against the current meta. This generation doesn't have many pokemon and as a consequence you're not going to see many newer strategies emerge. It has been given a new mechanic however, that could potentially inject greater diversity into the strategies available with the few mons it has.

The other issue is that you're not actually going to be playing the Sword and Shield metagame if you outright ban one its key mechanics, you're going to be playing a poor facsimile of it. Smogon has always done that to a degree to keep the meta fair and balanced but its never outright banned an entire mechanic. And this is the generation defining mechanic at the moment, if its banned then we won't actually be simulating the Sword and Shield game. We should at the very least see how things pan out and see if players invent strategies that allow them to deal with Dynamaxing or limit dynamaxing itself.
You're saying that people may develop strategies against this new mechanic at some point, and that banning dynamax isn't perfectly in line with the cartridge, therefore banning is bad.

If you think it's so simple to develop counter strategies for dynamaxing, then go ahead and do so and present your replays/teams/theorycrafting. Otherwise you're using empty conjecture to dismiss compelling arguments against your stance. That's using simple 'what-ifs' to argue that a very real and very noncompetitive mechanic should stay in the game. Come on, I'm not trying to be mean here, but you're going to have to put in some thought and work to get a solid argument across. Otherwise you end up undermining the point you're aiming to support.
 
It's clear that not all Pokemon utilize the Dynamax mechanic equally. Most arguments for banning rightly center on the volatile nature of how the strongest abusers can plow through an entire team based on a lucky guess. However the mechanic actually does have good gameplay to it in many cases, barring the most prominent outliers, which is consistent with how our bans have always worked.

Two post-ban metas are possible.
1. Dynamax is banned, and future policy mirrors OU formats of the past, with a few new items and different Pokemon pool.

2. Dynamax is not banned, but the biggest abusers are and future policy monitors the most potent Dynamax threats according to what we consider to be a balanced level of momentum-swinging and versatility.

I will say that we are fully capable of picking either option and creating a fun and competitive metagame regardless of which choice we settle on. But which one *should*represent our time with generation 8?

I support keeping Dynamax. Yes, it means a lot of standout OU staples will be banned. If that's what it takes to get to a metagame where all Pokemon can Dynamax roughly equally, or viable Pokemon have a trade-off between an effective Dynamax and effective normal form, that's the ideal Gen 8 meta that should exist -- the meta that that the game devs could make for swsh if given the same hindsight and competitive goals we are allowed. Thanks.
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
Game devs would not have added dynamax in the first place because 6v6 singles are not officially supported by Game Freak. Your starting point is fallacious because of that: dynamax almost certainly would not have existed in its current form if GF were to competitively balance around 6v6 singles. Also you are asking to purify the whole tier with likey dozens of bans. It makes little sense.
 
I'm assuming you're actually talking about my closing point, given the context. GF have never supported 6v6 singles which isn't new to this generation and I'm not getting into a "what if" situation with you because our role doesn't change.

The amount work it takes to the desired metagame is of less importance. What we are voting on is which end product do we want? We might ban 20 Pokemon, we might ban the generational mechanic. We can work with either and I'm asking people to keep that in mind as we make the biggest decision for this gen. I've picked my side. Dynamax has some good points to it that we would lose both entirely and forever should we choose that path. It should be clear that the ideal of Dynamax is to use more than the just the water/fighting/flying max moves and run away with games focused on specific Dynamax powerhouses who are without equal. If there is *any* chance that Dynamax UU-lite has more variety and is more skill-testing, then it should be the goal.

- edited to restate my choice
 
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heres dittos usage statistics >1600
Ditto | 42.62249%

heres landos >1850 before the gen ended
Landorus-Therian | 42.48638%

if this is not an indicator of an unhealthy metagame than i dont know what is. the power from dynamaxing leads to defensive cores being significantly easier to break which creates a very "sweep friendly" environment, one in which ditto thrives. however, having two teams with dittos leads to this weird game of whos going to get bored first and try to end the game, which barring a mistake by the responding party, leads to the aggressor being severely punished. ditto at this usage rate is unfun and frustrating to play against while feeling like a drag to use. and unfortunately, ditto feels like a required slot in every teambuilder right now.

however, ditto isn't broken. ditto is only as strong as the strength of the metagames most centralizing aspect, which just goes to show how overcentralizing and powerful dynamaxing is. to put it in perspective ditto's usage rate in oct 19 >1850 was 4.93104%.

my point of this post isnt to explain why dynamax is broken, I think that was explained in the OP, and theres no sound refutes to the arguments presented. rather i just wanted to use ditto's numbers to prove how unhealthy dynamaxing is for the game right now.

(before someone says that landos stats are more indicative of an unhealthy metagame because there were overall more pokemon in the game, and therefor his usage is more significant, take into account that this was in a >2 year old metagame where we already know whats good or bad, and ditto is in a <1 month old metagame which is still developing. if things were to stay as they are now, i'm willing to put good money on ditto's usage increasing even more)
 
The decision taken at the end of this suspect test shouldn't matter to other TLs of lower tiers especially lc.
Dymamaxing is new. I'm now sick of playing with these familiar pokemons again and again... now for a change I want uncertainties, something very unpredictable like my post so dymamaxing is the key to win my and other people who resist changes heart.
Also, don't listen to people who spread toxic against dymamaxing, they are the same guys who cry when they lose to accuracy and say hax.
Fax you.
 
I won't claim to be high ladder, or that I've seen every strategy in action.

From what I know, dynamaxing seems to be as much of a requirement to win as mega evolutions or Z-crystals before them. Not using the past gimmicks was effectively gimping yourself of a metagame-defining feature of the games. The key differences, as already outlined, are that Dynamax requires no item (and can ignore limiting Choice items) and can be used by any Pokémon on a team.

That said, I'd be hard pressed to say that Dynamax is a mechanic that can be written off as uncompetitive. There's a number of different ways to use your Dynamax - open with it and break down your opponents opening strategy, setup sweeper, survive a hit you normally wouldn't, surprise kill a problematic counter, or simply answer to an opponent's Dynamax. There's a number of ways to counter an opposing Dynamax without Dynamaxing yourself - Ditto, Unaware, status (sleep is HIGHLY underrated for dealing with Dynamax), and invulnerability moves like Phantom Force and Dive, not to mention simply outspeeding or beating the Dynamax'd mon with a favorable matchup. You need to plan how you use your Dynamax carefully to beat what your opponent brings - Honestly, you're a fool if you DDance dynamax Gyarados against a team with Ditto.

As an aside, when people mention Choice breaking, one important thing to remember is that not only does the Choice lock break, but so does the Choice effect. Speed is reduced or damage is lowered for three turns, so there is a (small) trade, and losing your Dynamax to get out of a choice lock can hurt you bad.

Yes, the meta is warping around Dynamax. But I don't think that is a bad thing. If Ditto becomes more prevalent, setup sweepers will eventually fade away and the two will balance each other out. There's a lot of complexity that does not completely shut down other options, and it still takes careful planning to win a game with Dynamax legal.
 
Ok guys I got reqs in 40 games but I played anyway around 300 games in SS OU so I have a specific opinion on dynamax and how it influences the metagame.
As first I'm going to specify that I'm going to vote no-ban but it's also true that this suspect is fair and reasons to ban dynamax are right.
I've seen interesting reflections from people who want to keep dynamax and also from people who want to ban them.
I want to keep dynamax on the metagame because it's like that in all my games I played I've never seen big MU problems due to dynamax (because every mon can be a good check for everything thanks to dynamax). How you play dynamax is the key to win the games in this meta, but it's really important to play it correctly because if you waste dynamax then you're going to lose 100% so for this reason I don't agree with people who say that Dynamax is easy and stupid to use (and I want to keep it also because I'm having fun but this reason is a bit selfish xd).
With this I'm not saying that metagame without dynamax would be bad, I understand and respect the reasons behind suspecting dynamax, but I'm not convinced at all if the metagame without dynamax would be fun or interesting because there are less mons (430? And not all of them are viable I think) and many interesting / broken threats like Darmanitan, Dracozolt etc and overall with dynamax everything is checkable even if dynamax is the keywin and seem to be broken due to mons who abuse of dynamax.

Talking about mons who abuse of dynamax, this one is really broken, you must try it xd

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 156 Def / 104 SpD
Bold Nature
- Body Slam
- Curse
- Darkest Lariat
- Rest

Lax is a godlike check for darmanitan, dragapult, clefable, cindarace etc so you must try it and this is the most broken dynamax abuser, he reaches 1043 Hp lmao, how this thing is not OU LOL.

Anyway as I said I think both ban and no-ban argouments are fair so I encourage you all to ladder and get reqs. Cya
 
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People who are comparing Dynamax to Megas are misunderstanding the entire concept of the mechanic. Both Z-Moves and Megas were limited to one Pokémon and took the item slot, and they also didn't break other items. You can't change the mon holding the Z-Crystal or Mega Stone mid battle. When you enter a battle, the mon holding the item will hold it for the rest of the battle. Dynamax being so strong and flexible is a problem, and it entirely removes consistency from the game.

I do understand the point on Gigantamax being more predictable and thus less powerful, but I don't think they get how absurd are the secondary effects alongside with the absurdly high BP. You could argue that some Pokémon used Z-Moves better than others, just like Dynamax, but both Z-Moves and Megas were something that you can guess who has it on team preview (Sometimes it's hard to guess what Charizard it is, or maybe 2 mons are potentially Z, but you still had a really solid idea of what to do, and information to make a plan.). Z-Moves were pretty absurd already imo, but Dynamax not only is stronger because of the secondary effects, but it also last for 3 turns (And that is a LOT) AND doubles de bulk of the mons.

IF I COULD vote, I'd say ban Dynamax.
 
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The main problem that I find in mechanics is that the offensive aspects far outweigh the defensive ones.
There are no movements that help a Dynamax pokemon defend itself against a Dynamax rival, such as that some priority movement puts both screens or greatly reduces the rival attack in some way.
There is also no pokemon except Mimikyu or Ditto to try to reverse a possible sweep of a Dynamax pokemon.

Without a doubt, mechanics is unhealth for a competitive metagame.

But banning the mechanics completely leaves us with half of generation 8 !!

Perhaps it is best to consider 2 tiers OU:

1) OU without Dynamax
2) Normal OU.

I am giving my opinion, since I myself think that Dynamax is anti-competitive, but eliminating mechanics I think is counterproductive in this new generation.
 
Perhaps it is best to consider 2 tiers OU:

1) OU without Dynamax
2) Normal OU.
I can tell you now we will not be having 3, potentially 4 different Generation 8 OU metagames.

It's also very important to remember this affects tiers below OU as well. So, if UU, and beyond, were to adopt the same ideology, they would also have two metas and so forth.

We need to stop using "it's the mechanic of the generation" as a "defense" because it's not working. It's as bottom of the barrel as you can get.

Try actually defending it and give us a reason to change our minds. Because "but it's the cool new thing" is not working, and spoiler alert, it never will work.

EDIT: I love how two of the three replies that followed this post were "but it's the cool new thing so it should stay".
 
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The main problem that I find in mechanics is that the offensive aspects far outweigh the defensive ones.
There are no movements that help a Dynamax pokemon defend itself against a Dynamax rival, such as that some priority movement puts both screens or greatly reduces the rival attack in some way.
There is also no pokemon except Mimikyu or Ditto to try to reverse a possible sweep of a Dynamax pokemon.

Without a doubt, mechanics is unhealth for a competitive metagame.

But banning the mechanics completely leaves us with half of generation 8 !!

Perhaps it is best to consider 2 tiers OU:

1) OU without Dynamax
2) Normal OU.

I am giving my opinion, since I myself think that Dynamax is anti-competitive, but eliminating mechanics I think is counterproductive in this new generation.
For the millionth time, a mechanic that ruins the competitive integrity of the game because of its lack of balance has no place to even be attempted to be preserved. There also wont be Dynamax ou meta as said before. It is also not counter intuitive to recorrect a metas balance issues by gettting rid of said balance issue. Live with it gen 8 will be fine.
 
Hi, everyone.
I have very little to add, since Dracolosse has summed it all up.
First of all, the fact that you need to think through and choose wisely when to dmax is pretty huge for me. It is honestly a really good argument pro-dmax. That is not uncompetitive or braindead at all. It is another layer of skill one has to account for.
Also, yes, Dmax is a gen defining mechanic and I don't think that has been taking into account properly. If we ban, we will have 3 or 4 years of a meta with only mons? No megas, no Zs, no nothing? Gyara, Togekiss and some other mons like ditto will get a little worse and that is it - an entire gen defining mechanic in exchange for a few mons becoming a little worse.
Not only that, but Dmaxing basically is as if every single pokémon on your team could mega at any time, with the restriction of 3 turns of dmax. Megas boost stats, make bad pokemon like lopunny and Kangashkhan rise from NU to OU or ubers. And, as someone mentioned before, there has never been a debate of banning megas altogether. So what if Dmax makes some pokémon better, like Hawlucha (which was already a pretty good late game sweeper in USUM and has been proven to be an ok mon, not broken at all), Gyara (again, another pretty good mon in USUM, with Z-Fly allowing it to beat many counters), Togekiss and so on? The same could be said for megas and for z-moves (Z-Fly was huge back in the beggining of S/M, with salamence, lando, gyara and dnite).
Truth is dmax is pretty much a mega for any pokémon, aside from the no item restriction (actually, you lose the choice item bonus, which is also something that one needs to account for in game). Yes, it makes them bulkier, but only for 3 turns. Yes, some moves have pretty nasty effects, but, again, they can be used only for 3 turns, you actually lose access to status moves while dmaxing, and it is not like mons are unbeatable while dmaxing. There are so many ways to play around, one just have to think outside the box. I mean, how many teams have I seen running counter or metal burst in these past weeks? None, aside from my own teams. Only dittos and maybe a prankster twave once or twice, or a mimikyu. And if the opponent can abuse fly/fight dmax, so can you. If the opponent can dmax to withstand a hit, so can you. Unless, of course, you build your team poorly and don't account for that specific mon, or if you play poorly and sac your check early game. Or it could be that the opponent cteams you, which has always been a possibility.
In short, there is no argument against dmax that can't be properly answered by the fact that you can also use dmax in your favor, at any time you want (to grab momentum, to try to remove a particularly annoying threat etc.). Or, in other words, I feel people are just being lazy throwing dittos everywhere and complaining about dmax. I mean, Trick Room is crazy good in this meta, with great mons to abuse it (perrserker, copperajah, pinkurchin, hatterene etc.), but I rarely ever see TR (aside from hatterene, these other mons are all UU rn).
Gyara is everywhere? Well, so was lando in every gen, to the point that other landos had to run HP ice, mews had to run ice beam... But we never thought of banning lando. The same can be said for gyara (which is checked, among others, by any scarfed electric type), Darm and Hawlucha (which is honestly not even that good). All you need is a little more time, like months, for the metagame to adapt.
Someone mentioned above s/he couldn't see how would anyone build a team not around dmaxing. Well, in ORAS and USUM, pretty much every team would have a mega. And, in the case of USUM, a z-move. How is that much different? Z-moves made the game pretty unpredictable as well. Is the opponent running z-grass kartana, Z-steelium, Z-normal, z-Fight? Or is the Z-stone with Tapu Bulu? Who knows, thats something you have to account for when teambuilding and when playing v. the opponent.
And the fact that both players have dmax and both players can choose when to use it in order to win a game... I really can't see how anyone would think that is uncompetitive. For me, that is check and mate.
I saw someone saying Dmax makes the game more random. How is that so? What is random about dmax? Dmaxing is the opposite of random.
All in all, dmax has nothing intrinsically new, aside from some immunities, which, yes, is stupid. I will agree the fact that dmax mons are immune to phaze, flinch, dbond and weight moves is pretty dumb. That is the only broken point I see in Dmax, and it restricts many answers to that. While that is true, for me, it is not enough to take down this gen defining mechanic.
In that sense, I believe we should not ban dmax, and that we should have dmax for at least three or four months before we consider banning the whole mechanic.

TL;DR: both players can use dmax any time they want, so they need to think carefully when teambuilding and when to use dmax. That isn't broken, uncompetitive, random nor braindead. Dmax is a gen defining mechaninc, which should be approached as such, and it doesn't bring anythin intrinsically new to the table, aside from a few immunities (dbond, flinch..., which I don't think is enough reason to ban it).
 
I don't know if you read every comment, cause I know I won't have the time for that, but my opinion is that as overpowered as it may be, there are still some fans who like this mechanic and would wish to see it in competitive gameplay. I'd personally prefer if it was available in OU and banned in UU, NU and other lower tier, but I completely understand your reasonings so instead I suggest to make a separate "OU tier" where its available and let everyone decide for themselves wether to use it or not while playing casually (but probably not allow it in competitions).

Another idea I have in mind is, to reduce the randomness of Dynamaxing, make it so that both parties need to publicly announce which Pokémon they Will be dynamaxing even before the battle starts, or before that, when they create their team. However as this does not exactly follow how it Works in official games, I understand if you'd rather stay close to the real games as much as possible and not do tweaks like this at all.
 
I was not originally gonna go for reqs, but since there are a scary amount of people against the ban, I will try to get reqs (I can’t promise anything). If I get reqs (i think I can), I will be voting ban.

My primary concern with dynamax is that it puts a major constraint on team-building. The best solution to combat dynamax is easily just slapping ditto on every team. It seems like it’s far and away the best way to deal with the countless threats. Having ditto on every team means that you can only work with 5 Pokémon to accomplish every other task. I think this is pretty clearly problematic. I don’t know how some people can possibly glance over this glaring flaw.

Yes, you can still build good teams without ditto, but it very often seems worse than just having a ditto on there. It is possible to build without ditto, but it really feels like it puts you at a disadvantage.

I also want to point out that there will be other formats where dynamax will be playable. OU is not the only competetive Pokémon format. Dynamax is just not a mechanic that was built with 6v6 singles in mind. If you like dynamax, play an official format as it is much more fitting for vgc style matches than it is 6v6 singles.
 
Hi, everyone.
I have very little to add, since Dracolosse has summed it all up.
First of all, the fact that you need to think through and choose wisely when to dmax is pretty huge for me. It is honestly a really good argument pro-dmax. That is not uncompetitive or braindead at all. It is another layer of skill one has to account for.
Also, yes, Dmax is a gen defining mechanic and I don't think that has been taking into account properly. If we ban, we will have 3 or 4 years of a meta with only mons? No megas, no Zs, no nothing? Gyara, Togekiss and some other mons like ditto will get a little worse and that is it - an entire gen defining mechanic in exchange for a few mons becoming a little worse.
Not only that, but Dmaxing basically is as if every single pokémon on your team could mega at any time, with the restriction of 3 turns of dmax. Megas boost stats, make bad pokemon like lopunny and Kangashkhan rise from NU to OU or ubers. And, as someone mentioned before, there has never been a debate of banning megas altogether. So what if Dmax makes some pokémon better, like Hawlucha (which was already a pretty good late game sweeper in USUM and has been proven to be an ok mon, not broken at all), Gyara (again, another pretty good mon in USUM, with Z-Fly allowing it to beat many counters), Togekiss and so on? The same could be said for megas and for z-moves (Z-Fly was huge back in the beggining of S/M, with salamence, lando, gyara and dnite).
Truth is dmax is pretty much a mega for any pokémon, aside from the no item restriction (actually, you lose the choice item bonus, which is also something that one needs to account for in game). Yes, it makes them bulkier, but only for 3 turns. Yes, some moves have pretty nasty effects, but, again, they can be used only for 3 turns, you actually lose access to status moves while dmaxing, and it is not like mons are unbeatable while dmaxing. There are so many ways to play around, one just have to think outside the box. I mean, how many teams have I seen running counter or metal burst in these past weeks? None, aside from my own teams. Only dittos and maybe a prankster twave once or twice, or a mimikyu. And if the opponent can abuse fly/fight dmax, so can you. If the opponent can dmax to withstand a hit, so can you. Unless, of course, you build your team poorly and don't account for that specific mon, or if you play poorly and sac your check early game. Or it could be that the opponent cteams you, which has always been a possibility.
In short, there is no argument against dmax that can't be properly answered by the fact that you can also use dmax in your favor, at any time you want (to grab momentum, to try to remove a particularly annoying threat etc.). Or, in other words, I feel people are just being lazy throwing dittos everywhere and complaining about dmax. I mean, Trick Room is crazy good in this meta, with great mons to abuse it (perrserker, copperajah, pinkurchin, hatterene etc.), but I rarely ever see TR (aside from hatterene, these other mons are all UU rn).
Gyara is everywhere? Well, so was lando in every gen, to the point that other landos had to run HP ice, mews had to run ice beam... But we never thought of banning lando. The same can be said for gyara (which is checked, among others, by any scarfed electric type), Darm and Hawlucha (which is honestly not even that good). All you need is a little more time, like months, for the metagame to adapt.
Someone mentioned above s/he couldn't see how would anyone build a team not around dmaxing. Well, in ORAS and USUM, pretty much every team would have a mega. And, in the case of USUM, a z-move. How is that much different? Z-moves made the game pretty unpredictable as well. Is the opponent running z-grass kartana, Z-steelium, Z-normal, z-Fight? Or is the Z-stone with Tapu Bulu? Who knows, thats something you have to account for when teambuilding and when playing v. the opponent.
And the fact that both players have dmax and both players can choose when to use it in order to win a game... I really can't see how anyone would think that is uncompetitive. For me, that is check and mate.
I saw someone saying Dmax makes the game more random. How is that so? What is random about dmax? Dmaxing is the opposite of random.
All in all, dmax has nothing intrinsically new, aside from some immunities, which, yes, is stupid. I will agree the fact that dmax mons are immune to phaze, flinch, dbond and weight moves is pretty dumb. That is the only broken point I see in Dmax, and it restricts many answers to that. While that is true, for me, it is not enough to take down this gen defining mechanic.
In that sense, I believe we should not ban dmax, and that we should have dmax for at least three or four months before we consider banning the whole mechanic.

TL;DR: both players can use dmax any time they want, so they need to think carefully when teambuilding and when to use dmax. That isn't broken, uncompetitive, random nor braindead. Dmax is a gen defining mechaninc, which should be approached as such, and it doesn't bring anythin intrinsically new to the table, aside from a few immunities (dbond, flinch..., which I don't think is enough reason to ban it).
#1. region mechanics can be banned as a whole if they are toxic and broken enough to warrant so (as of right now). If you favor a regional mechanic because its new and cus game frak said so over balance for a competitive format website then thats your problem not ours

#2.Choosing when to dynamax isnt even the issue, its that dynamax makes the generation way too punish heavy, the amount of times you can lose a turn if you misplayed once and they get a max off and then it cripples you for the rest of the game and you lose is overly frequent and happens at every level of the game. Even with correct preparation dynamax is able to bypass all of that because of the ridiculous boost on top of it being very random, as well as not even taking a dent due to the x2 hp boost, add items stacking onto it and the max moves after the terrain and weather and even prep like ditto cant do enough. You also mention using counter and metal burst when the users of those arent even that good along with it being very unrealistic to be able to tank 140 bp moves in terrain/weather boosting + life orb for example, and thats with hitting without super effective damage. You also seem to forget that the hp boost can actually make them live counter and metal burst more reliably in some cases and those 2 moves alone cant account for more than 4 max abusers at once since like I said the users of those moves arent good and they must be kept healthy at all times to tank ridiculous damage output like that.
#3. There is not a single comparison possible you can make with z moves and megas to dynamax. Dynamax is both of them combined with extra add ons like hp boost and terrain setting up which was normally exclusive to certain pokemon. Also with how so many pokemon were removed teams are much more compact due to roles being gone from the game which leads me to my third point #3. 3 turns is way too much to handle a mega z move item stacking x2 pokemon, your almost always at minimum going to lose 2 pokemon unless the opponent chokes or you have a insanely good mu vs the max abusers which almost never happens because max is so difficult to counter in itself. Losing 1 pokemon has hue side effects in this gen more than others and max can easily do just that, if not even more often than 1 kill.
I would also like to know why you believe that the good players arent running the correct countermeasures like um... "perresker" lol.. for dynamax, and that even with 44% usage in high ladder its not enpugh and that the high ladder players are lazy. These stats are thousands of people together playing to win comp and if your so called strategies are so effective im not sure why only you are the 1 as you said yourself dont see it anywhere else even in high ladder. It could be that the strategies actually dont work at high level but I could be wrong, but no offense to you. Usually when data, the entire council(these people have played at a top level for about a decade), majority of forums, and as you said only you since your the only person running these strats, think they are good enough, as I said no offense they most likely arent.
As for when you compare usage to lando-T,lando-T glued the meta together being able to keep so many things in check while have plenty of weaknesses and being easy to cripple,mons like gyara are meant to capitilise off 1 mistake and win, on top of ditto having 44% usage in high level play and offensive sweepers mons taking the cake in a lot of the usage stats due to dynamax favoring them so much its clear theres a problem. When ditto is that used, and the meta is majoruty offensive based with only a few pokemon defensively used to semi glue the meta that shows a lot.

sorry posted on phone prob some typos
 
I don't have the time to ladder to get the REQs required, but in the time I have played, I was able to get some testing in. Undoubtedly, I believe Dynamaxing should be banned. It's one thing to point at the best users of the gimmick, but how long before they get banned and then people find out others who benefit greatly in comparison to others? There are so many positives to Dynamaxing that it's obscene. With Mega's, you could only use one and it forgo the option of using other items. Often you would have to build your team around that mega. Z moves also removed the ability to run other items and again, only one. Dynamaxing can be done by anyone, gives access to near Z level powered moves with lasting effects (another reason why Gyara and Hawlucha are such good abusers of it) and stops your pokemon from being flinched, phased etc while ALSO getting rid of the choice lock if you're choice scarfed. It's the Pokemon equivalent to moba games where characters have overloaded kits. Outside of 4x super effective moves or super effective moves with high BP/STAB, the HP boost is so great from DMaxing, that Ditto is literally the only reliable revenge kill; hence it's obscene usage at the top of the ladder. Ditto's usage being so high should be a huge red flag as to the health of the metagame. It's not like something like Galarian Darm will be bad without DMax. It just won't be "hi guys, I'm going to nuke you because I'm scarfed/banded and then double my HP and hit you with base 130 and 140 powered moves with amazing coverage". It significantly neuters the top threats "autowin" capabilities. Without DMax, there would be a lot more healthy interaction and way less Ditto.
 
Then can the council assure us that the metagame wont become a stall fest ruled by the following mons:
Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Galar corsola,Corviknight?
Just by reading these last few comments, I see people whining about ditto being high usage and the metagame being fast paced and offensive.
I am currently suspect testing and i have good hope of reaching reqs. I will vote no Ban and I hope that the majority of player will follow suit.

Smogon trying to crack on versatility and offensive prowess is nothing new. Almost all the bans from gen 6 onwards where neutering offensive stategies, from the whole baton pass incident to the ban of Mega Gross. Might be missing a few even then. Only two bans properly affected stall during that period. Arena trap and the ban of mega sableye at the end of gen 6.
We now are standing at the beginning of the generation, not even a month in, with only one OU usage sheet created. And already Dmaxing, which is a powerful mechanic indeed, is deemed too powerful..but not because hitting it is a win button with very limited counterplay, but rather because it enchances some already potent pokemon, like galarmanitan and Gyarados, to name only these two, and offers too much options since everybody can dynamax.

This ''attempt'' sole purpose is to dumb down gameplay to be able to then proceed as smogon does as always. That is the main reason, above all the ''broken'' aspect of the mechanic, that i am fighting against this ban.
 
but not because hitting it is a win button with very limited counterplay, but rather because it enchances some already potent pokemon, like galarmanitan and Gyarados, to name only these two, and offers too much options since everybody can dynamax.
These are literally the same thing. Anyone with a slightly working brain will Dynamax their Gyarados mid-game when Gyarados' checks have been worn down to no longer be a check (aka have pretty much taken rocks damage).This goes for any problematic "go to" dynamaxed Pokemon.

And I can't believe I'm still reading a round about "StAlL tOo StRoNk" post in 2019.
 
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My opinion: BAN

My reason: I have been laddering on a main account (not on a suspect test account) with a variety of teams, everything from rain to HO to balanced. One thing that I can say for sure is that any meta game where Ditto is a top 3 Pokémon is a seriously unhealthy meta. Pokémon such as G-Darmanitan can run a move such as Brick Break for Max Knuckle, and Flare Blitz for Max Flare, and then you are staring at a 140 attack choice banded, 95 speed choice scarf, Ice type in the sun (with Flare Blitz), that may or may not have any attack boosts from Max Knuckle, that is free to choose any move.
+2 252+ Atk Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery (The +2 is after 1 Max Knuckle boost + Guerilla Warfare, the boost for Guerilla Warfare doesn't work yet on the damage calculator).
Keep in mind that this is only after 1 Max Knuckle boost. Getting 2 boosts is not unrealistic.

I realize that I have spent a lot of time talking about G-Darmanitan, but that's because that's one of the Pokémon I have used the most. I do understand that there are many other implications for Dynamax, but I figured I would share my thoughts.
 

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A reoccurring argument seems to be the comparison between Dynamax and Z Moves and Mega Evolutions. I think these comparisons are super offbase and ill informed.

I'll quote Lerart's post from this page to point out a key difference that they state perfectly:
Both Z-Moves and Megas were limited to one Pokémon and took the item slot, and they also didn't break other items. You can't change the mon holding the Z-Crystal or Mega Stone mid battle. When you enter a battle, the mon holding the item will hold it for the rest of the battle. Dynamax being so strong and flexible is a problem, and it entirely removes consistency from the game.
But there's another point I'd like to talk about: just because we didn't ban Megas or Z Moves doesn't mean we didn't consider it or couldn't. They both could have been banned. We are not going to not ban something just because it's this generations gimmick mechanic. Let me ask you this: if Z Moves were a guaranteed OHKO move, would you still want them around? If Mega Evolutions doubled all of the Pokemons stats (ex: Mega Lucario having 140/220/140/230/140/180 on top of its ability, Adaptability), do you think it'd be balanced? These are obviously super extreme hypotheticals, but my point is banning the generations core mechanic or gimmick should not be entirely off the table. You can give it higher standards than a regular ban if you so please, but it is not something that is above being tested or banned.
 
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#1. region mechanics can be banned as a whole if they are toxic and broken enough to warrant so (as of right now). If you favor a regional mechanic because its new and cus game frak said so over balance for a competitive format website then thats your problem not ours

#2.Choosing when to dynamax isnt even the issue, its that dynamax makes the generation way too punish heavy, the amount of times you can lose a turn if you misplayed once and they get a max off and then it cripples you for the rest of the game and you lose is overly frequent and happens at every level of the game. Even with correct preparation dynamax is able to bypass all of that because of the ridiculous boost on top of it being very random, as well as not even taking a dent due to the x2 hp boost, add items stacking onto it and the max moves after the terrain and weather and even prep like ditto cant do enough. You also mention using counter and metal burst when the users of those arent even that good along with it being very unrealistic to be able to tank 140 bp moves in terrain/weather boosting + life orb for example, and thats with hitting without super effective damage. You also seem to forget that the hp boost can actually make them live counter and metal burst more reliably in some cases and those 2 moves alone cant account for more than 4 max abusers at once since like I said the users of those moves arent good and they must be kept healthy at all times to tank ridiculous damage output like that.
#3. There is not a single comparison possible you can make with z moves and megas to dynamax. Dynamax is both of them combined with extra add ons like hp boost and terrain setting up which was normally exclusive to certain pokemon. Also with how so many pokemon were removed teams are much more compact due to roles being gone from the game which leads me to my third point #3. 3 turns is way too much to handle a mega z move item stacking x2 pokemon, your almost always at minimum going to lose 2 pokemon unless the opponent chokes or you have a insanely good mu vs the max abusers which almost never happens because max is so difficult to counter in itself. Losing 1 pokemon has hue side effects in this gen more than others and max can easily do just that, if not even more often than 1 kill.
I would also like to know why you believe that the good players arent running the correct countermeasures like um... "perresker" lol.. for dynamax, and that even with 44% usage in high ladder its not enpugh and that the high ladder players are lazy. These stats are thousands of people together playing to win comp and if your so called strategies are so effective im not sure why only you are the 1 as you said yourself dont see it anywhere else even in high ladder. It could be that the strategies actually dont work at high level but I could be wrong, but no offense to you. Usually when data, the entire council(these people have played at a top level for about a decade), majority of forums, and as you said only you since your the only person running these strats, think they are good enough, as I said no offense they most likely arent.
As for when you compare usage to lando-T,lando-T glued the meta together being able to keep so many things in check while have plenty of weaknesses and being easy to cripple,mons like gyara are meant to capitilise off 1 mistake and win, on top of ditto having 44% usage in high level play and offensive sweepers mons taking the cake in a lot of the usage stats due to dynamax favoring them so much its clear theres a problem. When ditto is that used, and the meta is majoruty offensive based with only a few pokemon defensively used to semi glue the meta that shows a lot.

sorry posted on phone prob some typos
I cannot answer everything, since i am also on my phone and my post alone took a lot of time.
I'll Just say 2 things.
First is random definitely does not describe dmax. Random has to do with hax, which, aside from crits, is clearly not the case. If anything, dmax takes off the randomness which dodging brings. There is nothing random in dmaxing. On the contrary.
Second, trick room is pretty amazing in this meta, as It counters both ditto and dmax, yet people are not using it. I got easy reqs and high ladder with TR. Same can be said for sash spam, with which ill get reqs again in the near future (does anyone remember that nice breloom starmie bisharp sash spam back in ORAS?). The options are all there. Priority, tailwind, mimikyu, TR, screens (which have been used a lot) and so forth.

As for the person who mentioned primal groudon, dmax doesnt make any mon that good. Pdon has base 800stats for the whole game from the moment It enters the field. In dmax case, most mons are overrated, honestly. And people have already realized that with hawlucha, for instance.
I honestly think people are asking to ban the queen, but both players have the queen in a chess game. It is a Very good piece, but It all comes down to how you use it along with all the others pieces, thinking in the long run most of the time. And, yes, sometimes, a poor misplay can make you lose the game (i know teams are different, but the metaphor holds, because, basically, there IS parity on arms, not like baton pass, which gave the player who decided to use it a big advantage).
 
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