Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Boom Boom Pow

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I honestly think people are asking to ban the queen, but both players have the queen in a chess game. It is a Very good piece, but It all comes down to how you use it along with all the others pieces, thinking in the long run most of the time.
I'm unironically glad you tried to make a chess analogy.
No one is asking for a banning of the queen. If I look at someone's team and go "wow, 'X' really messes me up" I have identified their "queen". Their "queen" is not what I want banned. It's the fact that at any point during the game, they can choose to make one of their "pawns" into a "queen" while keeping their original "queen" in play, or making their "queen" even stronger. Imagine playing a game of chess and having to worry about not only their queen being able to move around the board and taking your king, but the opponent being able to, whenever they see an opening, randomly choose to make their pawn a queen for 3 turns.

Would you want to play that game of chess?
 
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Then can the council assure us that the metagame wont become a stall fest ruled by the following mons:
Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Galar corsola,Corviknight?
Just by reading these last few comments, I see people whining about ditto being high usage and the metagame being fast paced and offensive.
I am currently suspect testing and i have good hope of reaching reqs. I will vote no Ban and I hope that the majority of player will follow suit.

Smogon trying to crack on versatility and offensive prowess is nothing new. Almost all the bans from gen 6 onwards where neutering offensive stategies, from the whole baton pass incident to the ban of Mega Gross. Might be missing a few even then. Only two bans properly affected stall during that period. Arena trap and the ban of mega sableye at the end of gen 6.
We now are standing at the beginning of the generation, not even a month in, with only one OU usage sheet created. And already Dmaxing, which is a powerful mechanic indeed, is deemed too powerful..but not because hitting it is a win button with very limited counterplay, but rather because it enchances some already potent pokemon, like galarmanitan and Gyarados, to name only these two, and offers too much options since everybody can dynamax.

This ''attempt'' sole purpose is to dumb down gameplay to be able to then proceed as smogon does as always. That is the main reason, above all the ''broken'' aspect of the mechanic, that i am fighting against this ban.
The 3 turns that a Pokémon can dynamax are absolutely not what is stopping stall right now, it’s the fact that so many powerful stallbreakers are running around like banded darmanitan and dracovish. Dynamax is not the key to defeating any ditto-containing stall team at all.

This feels like a pretty gross misrepresentation of the suspect test’s purpose and just an excuse for you to spew hate at smogon & Pokémon strategies that you don’t like.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
What you're describing is still completely valid to create a competitive setting. It's basically an opinion statement that you personally prefer standard chess over this other game, not that the other game is flawed.
Regardless comparing Dynamaxing to the queen in chess is just a very incorrectly used analogy because they perform in completely different ways, which was basically the entire point of his post. His last sentence wasn't really necessary but it doesn't make his main point any less valid, so this just kinda looks like an attempt to cherry pick.
 
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people complaining that banning dynamax will make the metagame stale doesn't make much sense to me. when you remove that many mons from the game it actually opens up the ability for previously low tier mons to become viable as their counters have been removed or they can now fill a niche that was previously filled better.

if you put jellicent or snorlax on an ou team last gen for any reason other than 4fun then you were down a pokemon vs any competent player, but now these mons have genuine viability in the metagame.

and i don't think anyone should be worried about defensive teams being too powerful and making the metagame slow without dynamax. dracovish, g-darm, nasty plot hydreg all smash defence. hatterne by herself smashes the pex-ferro-clef core that was walling all of ou last gen.
 
Regardless comparing Dynamaxing to the queen in chess is just a very incorrectly used analogy because they perform in completely different ways, which was basically the entire point of his post. His last sentence wasn't really necessary but it doesn't make his main point any less valid, so this just kinda looks like an attempt to cherry pick.
Am I misunderstanding? A chess game where each person can power up one piece as they choose is still a completely valid game. Is there anything objectively inferior to this?
 
No, we are using objective parameters to convey subjective intentions.
We as a community establish what’s competitive about this game. Dynamax is deemed by most good players here (and a few bad ones such as myself) as an atrocity that has no place in our vision of a competitive game.

A chess game where each person randomly powers up one piece whenever they want is a game, you can still find someone calling it competitive and probably you can still find someone displaying his prowess at the game.

I find that kind of game to be stupid, unbalanced (and not fun). If you value different things you are pleased to vote no in the suspect. There’s no objectively superior game here, just different visions supported by different people.
But where do we draw the line? Why is there a species clause? Why are there bans at all? You can still play with x6 primal groudons and display your skill in a completely different metagame. That’s where you draw the line and decide what’s good and what’s wrong.
Dynamax is for me and a lot of other people, very wrong.
 
Am I misunderstanding? A chess game where each person can power up one piece as they choose is still a completely valid game. Is there anything objectively inferior to this?
Anything can be considered a 'game.' You can stand with a friend, roll dice, and bet on numbers above 3 or below three, mark down the results, agree to a certain number of rounds, then assign the winner to whoever won the most rounds. Here's the difference - that isn't competitive. There's no such thing as the world championship dice rolling contest. Why? It's not something worth investing any time, effort, or energy into because the parameters are outside your control. It's a game of chance.

You can then go to the very opposite of this kind of game. Let's take a 1v1 sport where all the pieces of it are in your hands, something like a fighting video game where each of you play the same character as the other. This enables an equal playing field were moment to moment, each player can impact the game meaningfully at any one point in time. There's very little if no chance involved in the outcome. Some people enjoy this kind of format, but no one enjoys sitting around, rolling dice until an outcome is decided by chance.

Then you go onto more probability focused games. Take poker for example. While chance is no doubt involved in the outcome, it's compelling to watch two players put loads of resources on the line to prove they can play better than the other. They do everything possible to read the other player's intentions, they estimate the various probabilities and chances for certain cards to show, etc. This allows top poker players to consistently perform despite the probability laden game.

Pokemon is closer to poker than it is to a fighting videogame. This is due to the variables involved that are decided by chance. At the same time, having awareness of these variables and how they impact the game state from moment to moment allows top players to perform consistently. Now take dynamaxing into this equation. This introduces a very specific style of play, hyper offense, and grants it an unproportional amount of tools compared to every other playstyle. This creates a centralization, a sort of stagnation of strategies.

This is due to what I'll call an estimated power level. It's simple really; when the top level mons are so unbelievably strong, they destroy 99% of other mons outside of a select few, niche counters. This is due to the raw power they have. This is why dynamax is so centralizing. It makes certain mons so strong, they muscle past even the niche counters assigned to handle them. That in and of itself destabilizes the checks and balances that have been built up in pokemon for years now.

It creates a volatile, unstable metagame that is very dramatic to watch and play. I can't deny that dynamaxing is exciting and fun to watch. This is because anything can happen at any moment. The thing is, that is intensely frustrating for the competitive players who have invested the time and effort to become good players. They can spend tens of hours creating a team and have all that effort washed away by a dynamax at the wrong time. Yes, as a spectator that can be fun to watch.

As a player that actually CARES about the damn game though, it just makes you want to throw your hands in the air and move on to something else.

That's the issue here. Most if not all the arguments for dynamaxing I've heard can be summed up in a sentence or two, "Yeah, it may be a bit uncompetitive, but it's exciting, fast paced, and it's novel. I like that part of it." <--- This isn't coming from competitive players. This is from people who casually play here or there. The thing is, smogon was made with being competitive in mind. They have tournaments and a history of competitive play. Warping the meta to suit the spectator at the expense of the player isn't worth imo.

And the reason for that is simple; this is a platform created FOR competitive players who play the game hours a day. It's fun to watch personalities who play the game, but at the end of the day, smogon was created to give singles a competitive format. Dynamaxing, despite being exciting to watch while being novel, isn't competitive.

If you want to keep playing with dynamax, I'm certain there will be other formats that allow it. For christ sakes, balanced hackmons exists. You can play anything your heart desires there. Anything goes will likely still have dynamaxing. My point is, making the prime, competitive tier bend to something because you think it's cool isn't doing the community any favors.

Thanks if you read through this. It was a doozy.
 
Anything can be considered a 'game.' You can stand with a friend, roll dice, and bet on numbers above 3 or below three, mark down the results, agree to a certain number of rounds, then assign the winner to whoever won the most rounds. Here's the difference - that isn't competitive. There's no such thing as the world championship dice rolling contest. Why? It's not something worth investing any time, effort, or energy into because the parameters are outside your control. It's a game of chance.

You can then go to the very opposite of this kind of game. Let's take a 1v1 sport where all the pieces of it are in your hands, something like a fighting video game where each of you play the same character as the other. This enables an equal playing field were moment to moment, each player can impact the game meaningfully at any one point in time. There's very little if no chance involved in the outcome. Some people enjoy this kind of format, but no one enjoys sitting around, rolling dice until an outcome is decided by chance.

Then you go onto more probability focused games. Take poker for example. While chance is no doubt involved in the outcome, it's compelling to watch two players put loads of resources on the line to prove they can play better than the other. They do everything possible to read the other player's intentions, they estimate the various probabilities and chances for certain cards to show, etc. This allows top poker players to consistently perform despite the probability laden game.

Pokemon is closer to poker than it is to a fighting videogame. This is due to the variables involved that are decided by chance. At the same time, having awareness of these variables and how they impact the game state from moment to moment allows top players to perform consistently. Now take dynamaxing into this equation. This introduces a very specific style of play, hyper offense, and grants it an unproportional amount of tools compared to every other playstyle. This creates a centralization, a sort of stagnation of strategies.

This is due to what I'll call an estimated power level. It's simple really; when the top level mons are so unbelievably strong, they destroy 99% of other mons outside of a select few, niche counters. This is due to the raw power they have. This is why dynamax is so centralizing. It makes certain mons so strong, they muscle past even the niche counters assigned to handle them. That in and of itself destabilizes the checks and balances that have been built up in pokemon for years now.

It creates a volatile, unstable metagame that is very dramatic to watch and play. I can't deny that dynamaxing is exciting and fun to watch. This is because anything can happen at any moment. The thing is, that is intensely frustrating for the competitive players who have invested the time and effort to become good players. They can spend tens of hours creating a team and have all that effort washed away by a dynamax at the wrong time. Yes, as a spectator that can be fun to watch.

As a player that actually CARES about the damn game though, it just makes you want to throw your hands in the air and move on to something else.

That's the issue here. Most if not all the arguments for dynamaxing I've heard can be summed up in a sentence or two, "Yeah, it may be a bit uncompetitive, but it's exciting, fast paced, and it's novel. I like that part of it." <--- This isn't coming from competitive players. This is from people who casually play here or there. The thing is, smogon was made with being competitive in mind. They have tournaments and a history of competitive play. Warping the meta to suit the spectator at the expense of the player isn't worth imo.

And the reason for that is simple; this is a platform created FOR competitive players who play the game hours a day. It's fun to watch personalities who play the game, but at the end of the day, smogon was created to give singles a competitive format. Dynamaxing, despite being exciting to watch while being novel, isn't competitive.

If you want to keep playing with dynamax, I'm certain there will be other formats that allow it. For christ sakes, balanced hackmons exists. You can play anything your heart desires there. Anything goes will likely still have dynamaxing. My point is, making the prime, competitive tier bend to something because you think it's cool isn't doing the community any favors.

Thanks if you read through this. It was a doozy.
I read through it. A vote to keep Dynamax is not the end of banning things that are broken. As you state, it makes certain mons overbearing and overcentraling which I agree with. Dynamax as a mechanic actually has a lot of good gameplay to it when it's not in the hands of the already-strongest Pokemon boosting their own stats for free or setting up their own weather.

That's not the game the Keep Dynamax side is asking anyone to play. But most of the great facets of Dynamax are completely overshaowed by the standout outliers and if we take the sludgehammer fix to this, there's no changing it back.
 
Many very solid arguments have already been said on the pro-ban side of the Dynamax discussion, so while I do not want to rehash the talking points already raised by the OP, I do feel that I should elaborate on an important part of why I will be voting to ban Dynamax.

Dynamax pokemon have an incredible potential for absolutely wrecking teams if given the opportunity. Because of the massive increase in bulk and the secondary effects that are given on top of very high powered moves, Dynamax opens many avenues for attack and forces the opponent to stop those opportunities from ever arising in the first place in order to not lose to Dynamax the mechanic. Often times this includes: making aggressive doubles into pokemon that can weaken or kill the potential Dynamax pokemon before it can do anything, sack pokemon to stall the turns of Dynamax or bring in a revenge killer, or making a defensive Dynamax in order to take on the opponent's Dynamax. Because of this, as well as the fact that even a non-game winning Dynamax will still generally take 2 or more pokemon in order to handle, Dynamax compresses the length of the game significantly and devalues the long term decision making ability of the player in favor of matchup and making correct calls in specific key turns. This is something that players have dealt with before (see z-moves), however unlike before, the potential that Dynamax brings to the table is at an unacceptable level in comparison to the comparably tame z-moves.

I do not see Dynamax as a mechanic that should be compared to Z-moves in any other way than to point out the ridiculous difference in power they have. Rather than being constrained to a single held item of one pokemon that can be reasonably deduced by the opponent as Z-moves were, Dynamax is a costless, ambiguous and flexible mechanic that adapts with the progression of the game. The only thing that they share in common is an ability to create moves that hit like a truck and allow for weak moves that are otherwise useless to turn into valid coverage options. Personally, I feel that comparing an item that I already considered suspect worthy to a mechanic that is superior in almost every single way is very telling of just what we are dealing with when we play in a metagame that allows for Dynamax.

None of this is to say that I think that Dynamax eliminates skill or should be something that we should have just quickbanned because its so obviously broken. As I previously stated, there is a lot of skillful and complex decision making that takes place while in our Dynamax meta and I do not think that we should write off generation defining mechanics without solid reasoning simply because it is very powerful and chaotic at this point of the generation. We should care about our image outside of our own community, and it is a very bad look to have non-comprehensive reasoning to justify to our decision to ban a generation defining mechanic. I will be voting ban because, for the reasons listed above, Dynamax reduces the overall value of decisions made by a player over the game and significantly values plays that are related to Dynamax (Making a correct call on clicking a coverage move when you are Dynamaxed, switching into a resist or immunity etc). I feel that this mechanic will significantly hamper the development of the metagame and that this can be resolved by banning Dynamax.

also guys pokemon isnt chess or poker or anything like that. its obviously day 1 brawl. its just a matter of time until we ban final smashes
 
Dynamaxing is the main feature of the generation. Banning it should be untouchable. It's like banning the 4th move slot cuz people thing having 4 moves gives too much coverage and the game would be "more competitive" if u only had 3. If you dont like Dynamax you shouldnt be playing Gen 8 cuz thats what a mechanic of Gen 8 pokemon is. And this is supposed to be a simulator of the pokemon games. If Dynamaxing had always existed since Gen 1 then theres no way itd be considered being banned, itd be seen as a core mechanic of the game just like switching which it now is. This is just people trying to transform the game back to the way it used to be instead of playing the new game thats come out. So if it's banned im definitely not playing OU anymore this gen because I play showdown to play Gen 8, which has dynamaxing, not some fanfiction game thats nothing like Gen 8.
There is many legitimate reasons that have been made why Dynamaxing should be banned in for Smogon OU singles. If you disagree with those reasons that is great and you should voice your concerns. However, if you say that Dynamax should be untouchable simply because its what Gamefreak decided would be the flavor of the week mechanic then I suggest you play another format when Dynamax is banned.
 

chimp

Link Together With All
Dynamaxing is the main feature of the generation. Banning it should be untouchable. It's like banning the 4th move slot cuz people thing having 4 moves gives too much coverage and the game would be "more competitive" if u only had 3. If you dont like Dynamax you shouldnt be playing Gen 8 cuz thats what a mechanic of Gen 8 pokemon is. And this is supposed to be a simulator of the pokemon games. If Dynamaxing had always existed since Gen 1 then theres no way itd be considered being banned, itd be seen as a core mechanic of the game just like switching which it now is. This is just people trying to transform the game back to the way it used to be instead of playing the new game thats come out. So if it's banned im definitely not playing OU anymore this gen because I play showdown to play Gen 8, which has dynamaxing, not some fanfiction game thats nothing like Gen 8.
Hey pal! Welcome to Smogon.
There is a whole subforum for individuals who wish to play strictly by on-cartridge rules.
It can be found here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/cartridge-formats.457/ or here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/battle-stadium.532/.

Enjoy!
 
Dynamaxing is the main feature of the generation. Banning it should be untouchable. It's like banning the 4th move slot cuz people thing having 4 moves gives too much coverage and the game would be "more competitive" if u only had 3. If you dont like Dynamax you shouldnt be playing Gen 8 cuz thats what a mechanic of Gen 8 pokemon is. And this is supposed to be a simulator of the pokemon games. If Dynamaxing had always existed since Gen 1 then theres no way itd be considered being banned, itd be seen as a core mechanic of the game just like switching which it now is. This is just people trying to transform the game back to the way it used to be instead of playing the new game thats come out. So if it's banned im definitely not playing OU anymore this gen because I play showdown to play Gen 8, which has dynamaxing, not some fanfiction game thats nothing like Gen 8.
If you believe Dynamax is the only unique thing about this generation then you are naive.

The Pokedex has been massively trimmed down, with only like 3 Gen 7 OU Pokemon surviving. If that isn't a defining feature of the generation then what the fuck is? Also the distribution of previously ubiquitous moves like Toxic, Knock Off, and Defog has been greatly reduced until Home transfers come out, another huge change to the meta. Even without Dynamax there are things keeping Gen 8 unique among its peers, we don't need to keep around an unbalanced mechanic that was clearly not designed with competitive 6v6 Singles in mind for the sake of "generational flavor". If Dynamax had been around since Gen 1 it probably would've been balanced and designed around over the nearly 24 years Pokemon has grown.

Smash Bros bans items. We can ban Dynamax.
 
I am frustrated. I spent months waiting for the release of the game to finally say goodbye to gen 7 and have fun with the new gen 8 mechanics, and the mechanics are fantastic, but gen 7 players can't adapt. If we remove Dynamax what is left? Think about ... Isn't it better for you to just play gen 7? Or rather, remove Nat Dex's Dynamax and play with Landorus T. as they always did with the new pokemon...
Really can not understand. If Dynamax is removed, unfortunately I will move away from PS because I can't believe I waited months for that. I don't want to see Dynamax in any mode that is not considered the default. Dynamax is gen 8! When you use a Focus Blast, are you absolutely sure it will hit? Unpredictability is part of pokemon, this is not a defect of Dynamax!
There are good tips in the comments, such as allowing Dynamax to be used in UBER and OU, and preventing it from being used in UU and below. That would be satisfactory.
~Sorry for the bad google translation.
 
Am I misunderstanding? A chess game where each person can power up one piece as they choose is still a completely valid game. Is there anything objectively inferior to this?
Valid, sure but somewhat goes against one of chess's main mechanics, which is the act of 'queening' by moving the pawn up/down (depending if white/black) the board and earning the right to become a queen.
 
I am frustrated. I spent months waiting for the release of the game to finally say goodbye to gen 7 and have fun with the new gen 8 mechanics, and the mechanics are fantastic, but gen 7 players can't adapt. If we remove Dynamax what is left? Think about ... Isn't it better for you to just play gen 7? Or rather, remove Nat Dex's Dynamax and play with Landorus T. as they always did with the new pokemon...
Really can not understand. If Dynamax is removed, unfortunately I will move away from PS because I can't believe I waited months for that. I don't want to see Dynamax in any mode that is not considered the default. Dynamax is gen 8! When you use a Focus Blast, are you absolutely sure it will hit? Unpredictability is part of pokemon, this is not a defect of Dynamax!
There are good tips in the comments, such as allowing Dynamax to be used in UBER and OU, and preventing it from being used in UU and below. That would be satisfactory.
~Sorry for the bad google translation.
There is absolutely nothing fun about winning a game only for your opponent to dynamax something mid game and proceed to reverse a 5-1 to a 1-0 because he nuked the rest of your team and is afforded boosts/lasting effects after he comes out of Dmax.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Man can some of you guys just turn on your brain for like a few minutes and get familiar with the forum before you actually start posting in a thread that essentially determines the entire fate of this gen's OU? Like for real. If some of you are actually convinced that Dynamax is going to be gone forever and unplayable on PS or anywhere else for that matter you either haven't even bothered to read anything at all anywhere, have absolutely no clue how Smogon tiering works, or are missing your entire frontal lobe.

Like if you see posts like these just don't respond to them. If they aren't capable of understanding something as simple as Smogon being an unofficial competitive format and not actually having any sort of effect on the ability to play Gen 8 as a whole, it's not worth your time to try and convince them otherwise. It just creates extremely toxic back and forth for like 1-2 pages. All it takes is a little bit of scouring the site to understand this. We are all big boys/girls that passed Elementary School.
 
I'm still fighting to qualify for the suspect test but I'm gonna give my thoughts on why Dynamax should be banned.

Dynamax itself has the potential to skew games completely based on the timing of the mechanic. Pokemon has had scenarios of 50-50s, but Dynamaxing takes this up to eleven. You don't know when your opponent will Dynamax. You don't know when is the right time to Dynamax. What if you Dynamax way too early and get countered and as a result, your opponent has a chance to steamroll you over. What if you want to plan to save your Dynamax near the middle game, but your opponent forces your hand and you have to Dynamax early yourself? Dynamax turns the metagame less into skill and to basically, Who gets lucky enough to Dynamax at the right time and takes control of the game. Unlike Mega Evolution, you really can't tell if any of the opponent's pokemon will Dynamax, unless it sticks out like Gyarados on a Stall Team.

Any Pokemon can Dynamax, but because of the nature of how Dynamaxing works, it turns the metagame to an offensively orientated one. Max Airstream, Max Knuckle and the rarer Max Ooze are the most infamous ones due to boosting Speed, Attack, and Special Attack. Offensive Pokemon just snowball out of control and can take command of the battle.

With Dynamaxing, there are limited ways to counter the mechanic. You pretty much have to Dynamax your own offensive Pokemon to try or have a Ditto in your team. I say offensive, because Dynamax turns any status moves on defensive Pokemon to Max Guard. So a Defensive Pokemon like Ferrothorn cannot try to Dynamax and paralyze a sweeper like Gyarados. And even then if you Dynamax to try to counter a Dynamax'd Pokemon, Dynamax also DOUBLES each Pokemon's HP stat. So what if you try to fight back a sweeper and don't kill them with a Max Move, making your effort worthless and you get steamrolled as a result. Oh yeah, and moves like Encore or Destiny Bond don't work and Dynamax cannot be phased out.

Ditto being used on nearly every team is a testament to how overpowered Dynamax is. Ditto is one of the only few ways to counter a Dynamax Pokemon sweeping and turning the sweep against them. It reminds me of how back when Naganadel was legal in SM OU, people had to run gimmicky sets on like Assault Vest Empoleon just to try to beat it. If everyone has to run a Ditto to try to combat against Dynamax in some way, that just says something.

The biggest offender for me is that Dynamax can break Choice Lock. The magic of Choice items is how they give your Pokemon a boost, but you are locked to one move. Breaking Choice lock allows you to turn the match up on its head and win when you were not supposed to. You don't get the boost yeah, but it allows situations like a Flare Blitz' locked Darmanitan could just dynamax and use Max Quake to kill the Toxapex who was supposed to have the upper hand in the match up.

Note: I will update on when I make reqs. I just wanted to get my arguments out before I forget.
 
I agree Dynamax should be banned based on reasons everyone has posted a million times, it's ability to snowball games and allows Pokemon to keep the ball rolling via high BP moves that provide a beneficial effect to boot (weather, terrain, stat boosts) while having the only counter play being stalling out via dynamaxing your own mons and max guarding/predicting switches. As stated above, there are very limited ways to counter dynamax other than dynamaxing yourself which sort of breaks the spirit of competitive pokemon.

However, is there an option to have an OU ladder with Dynamax enabled and one without it or I guess it would be a new tier on its own that allows PS players who would like to play with Dynamax? Not everyone is a hardcore-damage calcing player and there are those who play for the love of the game and I don't feel like they should just be stripped of the opportunity to play with them just because we deem as a competitive community that it's unhealthy for the competitive landscape or be forced to play Ubers.
 

Oldamar999

Gutsman's Ass
is a Pre-Contributor
I agree Dynamax should be banned based on reasons everyone has posted a million times, it's ability to snowball games and allows Pokemon to keep the ball rolling via high BP moves that provide a beneficial effect to boot (weather, terrain, stat boosts) while having the only counter play being stalling out via dynamaxing your own mons and max guarding/predicting switches. As stated above, there are very limited ways to counter dynamax other than dynamaxing yourself which sort of breaks the spirit of competitive pokemon.

However, is there an option to have an OU ladder with Dynamax enabled and one without it or I guess it would be a new tier on its own that allows PS players who would like to play with Dynamax? Not everyone is a hardcore-damage calcing player and there are those who play for the love of the game and I don't feel like they should just be stripped of the opportunity to play with them just because we deem as a competitive community that it's unhealthy for the competitive landscape or be forced to play Ubers.
If you want to play comp pokemon meta with dynamax unbanned, you could play Battle Stadium or National Dex AG, which both have dynamax allowed and the latter has every mon from the national dex. if you just want a legit gen 8 meta (with the galar dex and the snapped moves and items still gone) and 6v6 though, you're gonna be out of luck once this is banned unless they create another AG (because really there is no way this thing isn't getting banned)
 
Here are some of the arguments made by the pro ban side, and I would attempt to respond to them on why they are invalid.
1) Dynamax is powerful, but it is not broken since both players have access to it, analogous to the queen in chess.
As a veteran Pokemon and and a chess player online, I can say that while this is true, there are two main difference between Dynamax and the queen in chess. First, while they are both adversarial game, chess is a perfect information game and Pokemon is not. No one is gonna have problem if you start the game with the Ruy Lopez all the time - as long as it yields the best result most of the time. This is not the case with Pokemon- there are more grounds for creativity, not only with respect to the game strategy, but also with team building. The beauty of Pkm is you can build many little gimmicks and still win by bluffing. When I play a lower elo chess player online, I can be pretty confidence that I'm winning, since I have perfect information about his possible moves and strategies (while it gets harder when people go for random moves at time to hide their trace, I still could have seen their strategy ahead of time had I pay close attention). This is not true with Pokemon. Back in SM, I used to carry physical Ash Gren with U turn Z gunk and blow a bunch of Fini and Bulu back. However, the existance of certain mons in the current meta-game make this extremely ineffective or impossible. As I try to meet my req on the new SWSH ladder, I can guarantee if you don't bring either Pex, Ditto, or G Cor in your team - your team get 6-0 if Gyarados get one DD up. To this moment - I not aware of any gimmicks that stop DD 3 attack Life Orb Gyarados at +1. Since G Cor is useless in many match ups, I'm tired of having to always dedicate one slot on my team to either Ditto or Pex - both of which I think are very boring mons.
Second, the strategies involve on utilitizing the queen is vastly more complex and setting up to sweep with Dynamax, and thus it preserve interesting complexity in chess. If my opponent is attempt to use the queen offensively, I have a couple of turns for planning and coming up with counter measures. However, at the current state, without ditto, Pex, and G Cor on your team, Pokemon is literally a RPS game at choosing lead. Say at team preview, I see my opponent has Gyarados, T-Tar, and Hydreigon on his team. I know for a fact that they a 6-0 my team at 1 turn set up, so who should I lead? If I lead Rotom Wash to prevent the first two, Hydreigon Nasty Plot and 6-0 my team (Hydreigon don't need sub if there is no Ditto or Pex). If I lead G-Darm and check all 3 offensively, Gyarados can always Dynamax turn 1 and 1 HKO him to get attack and speed +1(Baned IC deals about 40% to dynamaxed Gyarados). If I lead Specs Dragapult to stop Gyarados and Hydreigon, T-tar DD and 6-0. Worst, even if I got it right, they could pull one offensive double and I still lose. If you say I could have done the same, I don't want Pokemon to be a game where winner is determined by whoever wins speed tie with X setup mon.
2) Dynamax is a gen 8 exclusive feature and therefore banning it is out of question.
Sure - it is. However, as the OP mentioned, we are playing a very different game from one Nintendo envisioned. In BS double, Dynamax is not a problem since you can't dynamax and sweep both mons at the same time (I have always believed BSS is a terribly designed game of RPS). Furthermore, I'm not completely for banning Dynamax- there alternative solutions. I say if we ban the main uncheckable dynamax abusers (Togekiss, Gyarados, G Darm) to Uber, I believe the rest of the meta-game has potential to adapt to the other threats, similar to the banning of certain mega in gen 6. However, this would require long period of suspect testing multiple mons until the game is viable, in which at the moment I say we need to apply the hotfix to ban Dynamax. In Uber, these mons are actually as powerful as Legendary as Zacian (G Darm is a top mon in Uber now)
These are my thoughts on the current issue. Thanks y'all for reading.
 
working on reqs in free time but gonna post some reasons about why dynamax should be banned.
1. Breaks choiced items/not item locked- The purpose of choiced items is to give a mon benefits at the cost of being locked into one move. Dynamax ignores this concept and forces 50/50s in situations that wouldnt normally happen. for example, a choice banded darm g icicle crashes into a resist such as a toxapex. This toxapex is in range of max quake so now you have to predict whether the opponent will 1. stay in and dynamax or 2. just switch out. what was now a guaranteed check to this choice-locked darm now has to predict a additional 50/50 that wouldnt exist otherwise. not being choiced locked means that in addition to the move power boost from dynamaxing, you can now run life orb on offensive sweepers like gyarados whose is arguable one of the best abusers this gen. what was normally a check to gyarados, ferrothorn has become ineffective a life orb +1 boosted max airstream ohkoes it after some chip. and max geyser sets rain which makes gyarados even stronger virtually breaking any wall that doesnt resist.
2. counter-arguement to inviduals saying since every pokemon can dynamax its healthy.
yes, every pokemon can dynamax its a common understanding. But what you have to understand is that since most (not all) pokemon can benefit from dynamax the metagame has become centralized that mechanic. The counterplay to dynamax sweepers is one of two things. 1. sacking a pokemon and then switching to a check that can dynamax and revenge kill the sweeper. 2. going to ditto and revenge killing the sweeper by dynamaxing it. my point is that a metagame where a mechanic is so centralizing that ditto or sacking a mon is its only counterplay means the mechanic is not healthy.
3. It violates the idea that x mon can check y mon.
The doubling of hp for three turns allows what normally would die to a check can kill and possible KO the check back. when people dynamax often times their opponent is caught off guard because they think their check will KO a mon that is in range just for it fail at doing so.
My Conclusion
Dynamax isnt a healthy mechanic because makes the meta centralized around a particularaly hyper offensive playstyle. It makes checks to manageable sweepers limited to sacking a mon and dynamaxing a check or ditto. It causes unescessary 50/50s because it breaks choiced items and makes opponents think have to think twice about staying in and dieing to a possibly random coverage move. It isnt item-locked which means dynamax or the pokemon itself can benefit from the use of common items such as heavy duty boots, life orb lefties,etc.
 

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Adding to what Gary said, if I read one more comparison like the Chess ones or the 4 Moves I'm not even going to waste anyone's time except yours and delete the post.

And dont bother PMing me to undelete the post because I'm going to ignore it.

Being pro-Dynamax is fine. Using arguments that make no sense to devalue those who wish to ban it (such as "we are just playing older generations without gimmicks") are pretty poor arguments and not worth anyone's time to read through.
 
Here are some of the arguments made by the pro ban side, and I would attempt to respond to them on why they are invalid.
1) Dynamax is powerful, but it is not broken since both players have access to it, analogous to the queen in chess.
As a veteran Pokemon and and a chess player online, I can say that while this is true, there are two main difference between Dynamax and the queen in chess. First, while they are both adversarial game, chess is a perfect information game and Pokemon is not. No one is gonna have problem if you start the game with the Ruy Lopez all the time - as long as it yields the best result most of the time. This is not the case with Pokemon- there are more grounds for creativity, not only with respect to the game strategy, but also with team building. The beauty of Pkm is you can build many little gimmicks and still win by bluffing. When I play a lower elo chess player online, I can be pretty confidence that I'm winning, since I have perfect information about his possible moves and strategies (while it gets harder when people go for random moves at time to hide their trace, I still could have seen their strategy ahead of time had I pay close attention). This is not true with Pokemon. Back in SM, I used to carry physical Ash Gren with U turn Z gunk and blow a bunch of Fini and Bulu back. However, the existance of certain mons in the current meta-game make this extremely ineffective or impossible. As I try to meet my req on the new SWSH ladder, I can guarantee if you don't bring either Pex, Ditto, or G Cor in your team - your team get 6-0 if Gyarados get one DD up. To this moment - I not aware of any gimmicks that stop DD 3 attack Life Orb Gyarados at +1. Since G Cor is useless in many match ups, I'm tired of having to always dedicate one slot on my team to either Ditto or Pex - both of which I think are very boring mons.
Second, the strategies involve on utilitizing the queen is vastly more complex and setting up to sweep with Dynamax, and thus it preserve interesting complexity in chess. If my opponent is attempt to use the queen offensively, I have a couple of turns for planning and coming up with counter measures. However, at the current state, without ditto, Pex, and G Cor on your team, Pokemon is literally a RPS game at choosing lead. Say at team preview, I see my opponent has Gyarados, T-Tar, and Hydreigon on his team. I know for a fact that they a 6-0 my team at 1 turn set up, so who should I lead? If I lead Rotom Wash to prevent the first two, Hydreigon Nasty Plot and 6-0 my team (Hydreigon don't need sub if there is no Ditto or Pex). If I lead G-Darm and check all 3 offensively, Gyarados can always Dynamax turn 1 and 1 HKO him to get attack and speed +1(Baned IC deals about 40% to dynamaxed Gyarados). If I lead Specs Dragapult to stop Gyarados and Hydreigon, T-tar DD and 6-0. Worst, even if I got it right, they could pull one offensive double and I still lose. If you say I could have done the same, I don't want Pokemon to be a game where winner is determined by whoever wins speed tie with X setup mon.
2) Dynamax is a gen 8 exclusive feature and therefore banning it is out of question.
Sure - it is. However, as the OP mentioned, we are playing a very different game from one Nintendo envisioned. In BS double, Dynamax is not a problem since you can't dynamax and sweep both mons at the same time (I have always believed BSS is a terribly designed game of RPS). Furthermore, I'm not completely for banning Dynamax- there alternative solutions. I say if we ban the main uncheckable dynamax abusers (Togekiss, Gyarados, G Darm) to Uber, I believe the rest of the meta-game has potential to adapt to the other threats, similar to the banning of certain mega in gen 6. However, this would require long period of suspect testing multiple mons until the game is viable, in which at the moment I say we need to apply the hotfix to ban Dynamax. In Uber, these mons are actually as powerful as Legendary as Zacian (G Darm is a top mon in Uber now)
These are my thoughts on the current issue. Thanks y'all for reading.
Banning specific dynamax abusers isn't the way to go and complex bans just get too wild. It's just a bandaid, kneejerk reaction. When the next dynamax abuser comes along that the meta can't adapt to in a healthy manner we're just going to instaban it to ubers because xyz.
GDarm is another issue but that is for another day.
 
Banning specific dynamax abusers isn't the way to go and complex bans just get too wild. It's just a bandaid, kneejerk reaction. When the next dynamax abuser comes along that the meta can't adapt to in a healthy manner we're just going to instaban it to ubers because xyz.
GDarm is another issue but that is for another day.
What do you mean by another Dynamax abuser come along? At this moment I say people have probably discovered all the broken stuff. The other are mostly just gimmicks - there are always many checks to them. Dynamax Poltergeist is good but it is walled by literally every Dark type. A lot of things check Hawlucha at +2 - G Weezing, Aegislash, Def Gastro, Def Clef (though not as common). Barrasweda cannot muscle through a lot of things without Max Knuckle, and it often get revenged by priority SP if running LO. It's just Gyarados and Togekiss are over-centralizing (T tar is like ORAS MMetagross - it can beat anything but requires the right coverage so that's questionable)
 
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