If Gorilla Tactics isn't broken, there isn't a justification in the tiering process to ban it. We don't have to bend over backwards to preserve Zen Darm. We didn't bend over backwards to preserve Blaze Blaziken, and no part of the tiering policy necessitates maximum inclusivity, especially at the cost of cohesion in the tiering process. Sucks that Zen Darm ends up as collateral, but that's the most cohesive way to do it.
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On The Radar Vol. 2 [See Post #336]
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Again with this whole Blaze Blaziken thing? It's not the same deal because banning Speed Boost as an ability would have had collateral damage on lower tiers, as Yanma, Yanmega and Ninjask would have gotten a nerf for no good reason other than “Save Blaziken”. They weren’t problematic with Speed Boost, Blaziken was. Hence, Blaziken was banned.
Gorilla Tactics, instead, is essentially Darmanitan’s signature Ability, as no other Pokémon has access to it. Sure, it may not be an OP ability per se, but the fact that it is slapped on a Pokémon with 140 in Attack, 95 in Speed and a pretty colorful movepool is what breaks the Pokémon. I mean, if you were to remove the ability through means like Wandering Spirit or whatever, would Darmanitan still be broken? If the answer is no, then the unhealthy element is the ability, not Darmanitan.
We should stop talking about “What if other Pokémon got Gorilla Tactics?” because that is just theorymoning atm. Right now, only Darmanitan has that ability, and if the unreleased HOME Pokémon are any indication, this isn’t gonna change for a while. So, why can’t we focus on the solution for the present rather than thinking on an hypothetical solution for some inexistent metagame?
I mean, for all we know, this potential metagame could have Pokémon capable of handling Darmanitan without problems. Does that mean that we should preserve or remove elements on the off-chance that future metagames can “fix” things?
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Why are people adamant on keeping ZM Darmanitan? Like come on! Wouldn’t it be easier to just ban the entire package instead of only the bowtie? It just feels cleaner to say that G-Darm is overpowered for OU hence it is in Uber instead of GT is a good ability that becomes problematic with G-Darm given its typing , access to a great movepool...etc
Like no! The reason behind a ban should not be an essay and / or a thesis.
G-Darm as a whole is too much for OU hence it got the chop and thats it.
Like no! The reason behind a ban should not be an essay and / or a thesis.
G-Darm as a whole is too much for OU hence it got the chop and thats it.
Darmanitan should get quickbanned. We've just had a 2 weeks suspect and SPL is coming soon, instead of wasting 2 weeks again on a mon that's gonna take a 90% majority, it should instead get quickbanned. This mon has virtually no switch-in with only one set, doesn't require much predictions to get the job done (just clicking stab and u-turn are often very rewarding) and has decent bulk allowing it to come in on some moves and win some 1v1s where it can't ohko its opponent. It's hindered by rocks but with great removers like Corviknight, Mandibuzz and Exca it can fixed. Bulky teams give it too many opportunities to let it break through the defensive core and offensive teams can very quickly get swept by the choice scarf set. This mon is the definition of a little amount of prediction needed for huge rewards. Don't waste time, quickban it.
Gorilla Tactics won’t get banned. Its an ability that only acts to make a single pokemon stronger, whereas just about all other ability bans so far are because they facilitate an entire strategy that is broken (trapping, weather). We have zero evidence that Gorilla Tactics is specifically what breaks Darmanitan - its a combination of good offensive typing, a movepool consisting of u-turn and good coverage, and mental base stats. Gorilla Tactics pushes Darmanitan over the top but only because it has the other prerequisite characteristics to do so. This is not like Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, or auto-weather in lower tiers, which would be incredibly influential on 90% of fully evolved Pokemon in the game.
Further, this would set a precedent that we probably don’t want to entertain - the idea that features exclusive to one Pokemon could be removed rather than tiering the entire pokemon itself. This sets us down a slippery slope that doesn’t lead anywhere good (is Ho-oh really broken if we ban sacred fire? There’s no collateral damage!!). It completely changes our tiering philosophy towards the handful of “unique” pokemon compared to those with no unique features.
Why should it be fair to simply nerf Pokemon like darmanitan or maybe later cinderace (ban libero or pyro ball??) but something like Dracovish would have to get banned outright purely because its moveset can be shared by other Pokemon? Its needlessly complicated. (And before people bring up mega stones as a “unique” feature we choose to ban - as we tier megas and nonmegas seperately this is a different situation. We don’t sub-tier pokemon based on ability alone)
Edit: IMPORTANTLY this also sets an incredibly bad precedent for lower tiers, which by design, give certain pokemon unique niches regarding moves/abilities due to other users being ranked in higher tiers. We could feasibly end up in a situation where RU has a Pokemon they want to ban, and then notice “oh wait but look its technically the only legal pokemon with water absorb so lets just ban that instead to nerf this mon”. Honestly, ban Gorilla Tactics now and the floodgates would be open for ridiculous banslists for the sake or preserving nerfed versions of cool Pokemon.
Further, this would set a precedent that we probably don’t want to entertain - the idea that features exclusive to one Pokemon could be removed rather than tiering the entire pokemon itself. This sets us down a slippery slope that doesn’t lead anywhere good (is Ho-oh really broken if we ban sacred fire? There’s no collateral damage!!). It completely changes our tiering philosophy towards the handful of “unique” pokemon compared to those with no unique features.
Why should it be fair to simply nerf Pokemon like darmanitan or maybe later cinderace (ban libero or pyro ball??) but something like Dracovish would have to get banned outright purely because its moveset can be shared by other Pokemon? Its needlessly complicated. (And before people bring up mega stones as a “unique” feature we choose to ban - as we tier megas and nonmegas seperately this is a different situation. We don’t sub-tier pokemon based on ability alone)
Edit: IMPORTANTLY this also sets an incredibly bad precedent for lower tiers, which by design, give certain pokemon unique niches regarding moves/abilities due to other users being ranked in higher tiers. We could feasibly end up in a situation where RU has a Pokemon they want to ban, and then notice “oh wait but look its technically the only legal pokemon with water absorb so lets just ban that instead to nerf this mon”. Honestly, ban Gorilla Tactics now and the floodgates would be open for ridiculous banslists for the sake or preserving nerfed versions of cool Pokemon.
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I stand with banning GT over Darm in general. While I'm not too familiar with the competative scene, I think it would be healthier overall banning the problematic aspect over going full Scorched earth.
-Why is Garm Overpowered?: Gorilla tactics
-is Garm overpowered without gorilla tactics?: No
-What is lost by banning Gorilla tactics?: Nothing, Darm is the only one who gets it
-What is lost by Banning Garm?: Quite possibly the only truly viable ice type since Kyurem, even without Gorilla tactics.
-What if GF introduces a new pokemon with Gorilla tactics?: Does it matter? while there are 2 unused pokemon in the code, the chance of them having GT is laughably low, and if a different pokemon gets introduced later down the line that gets it, then we can Suspect garm then.
So yes, I do think that Banning GT would be the better, cleaner choice that would lead to a healthier meta. Though there may be something I'm missing that proves me wrong.
-Why is Garm Overpowered?: Gorilla tactics
-is Garm overpowered without gorilla tactics?: No
-What is lost by banning Gorilla tactics?: Nothing, Darm is the only one who gets it
-What is lost by Banning Garm?: Quite possibly the only truly viable ice type since Kyurem, even without Gorilla tactics.
-What if GF introduces a new pokemon with Gorilla tactics?: Does it matter? while there are 2 unused pokemon in the code, the chance of them having GT is laughably low, and if a different pokemon gets introduced later down the line that gets it, then we can Suspect garm then.
So yes, I do think that Banning GT would be the better, cleaner choice that would lead to a healthier meta. Though there may be something I'm missing that proves me wrong.
Completely agree. Tiering policy has not been consistent in the past, and looking at this in a case by case basis GT is what makes GDarm broken in the first place. I don't understand how banning a single ability that's on a single pokemon with no indication of it being given to other pokemon for a very long time is in any way bending over backwards, nor is it a complex ban.
Banning abilities only if they are inherently broken (which Gorilla Tactics isn't) has always been a consistent policy. Otherwise in the past UU could have decided to ban Multiscale instead of Dragonite, to give one example. Honestly, care to give one example of policy not being consistent that hasn't been retroactively considered a mistake in the first place (I.e. the various Baton Pass clauses or Aldaron's proposal)?
This pretty much hits the nail on the head. While I admit that this point might not be the most convincing or legitimate argument...the lack of skill or smart prediction required to use this thing is insane. You get to put huge amounts of pressure on the opponent's team not by thinking, but by pounding your fist on the 'Icicle Crash' button like an actual gorilla (I guess that puts the name Gorilla Tactics into a whole new perspective).
Anything that doesn't resist you is almost certainly getting 2HKO'ed (if not nuked outright), and offensive mons that DO resist can only afford to switch in once. You're pretty much free to click your big damage button without a care in the world, as there are little to no repercussions to doing so. Meanwhile, your opponent is forced to play the guessing game between Icicle Crash and U-Turn (not even getting into his other coverage moves which are great). Darm almost always retains full control over the situation while requiring almost no effort to do so. This disproportionate reward is probably my biggest problem - I'm all for a mon being strong if you at least have to use it somewhat intelligently or have some sort of gameplan in mind. But having next to no switch-ins (and the few that can come in lose any kind of momentum to U-Turn)...being able to rampage through 95% of mons with a single button...and outspeeding 95% of the metagame while doing so is such a bad design it's laughable.
This ape is just running free all over OU doing as he pleases - it's time to put his ass back in the zoo.
You guys are mixing it up. Darmanitan isn't broken because of Gorilla Tactics. Gorilla Tactics is broken because of Darmanitan. Again, you're missing the forest for the trees. Pretty much every Pro-GT ban post I've seen only further confirms to me that everyone is in agreement that GT is only busted when put on G-Darm. So then isn't the correct course of action to ban G-Darm? Consider:
You literally just proved why we should ban Darm over Gorilla Tactics. You admit that it is not an overpowered ability but also that it should be banned in the same sentence. So why are you arguing to ban it? Because it's on an overpowered Pokemon. Nothing in Pokemon exsists in a vacuum; a Pokemon is more than the sum of its parts and should be treated as such.
You literally just proved why we should ban Darm over Gorilla Tactics. You admit that it is not an overpowered ability but also that it should be banned in the same sentence. So why are you arguing to ban it? Because it's on an overpowered Pokemon. Nothing in Pokemon exsists in a vacuum; a Pokemon is more than the sum of its parts and should be treated as such.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-sm-uu-stage-10-5-water-me-weather-test.3653094/
Not really the ban itself, but Drizzle and Drought were banned in UU, both abilities.
That's why I've been saying that this is an unique case, Gorilla Tactics DOES exist in a vacuum. Yes, GT isn't broken however only Darmanitan has it, banning Gorilla Tactics as an ability allows us to deal with the overpowered threat (GT Gdarm) while conserving a balanced mon that could contribute to a tier already lacking in Pokemon (ZM Gdarm).
And both abilities are inherently broken (for UU) so this doesn't contradict in any way what I said about consistent policy. Drought even has two fully evolved users, Ninetales and Torkoal, that could enable the exact same broken strategies.
First, I'd like to say that I've actually not made a post on Smogon in 10 years but these arguments have actually made me care enough to throw in my two cents.
Galarian Darmanitan reminds me a lot of the situation re:Garchomp in Gen 4. Nothing in the game can stand up to the Pokemon in any reasonable way. One set beats out what works well against the other. Constraining in team composition. No true counter. Non-guaranteed revenge kills. G Darm also has U-Turn so lol that's a thing on top of it all to wear stuff down without factoring in prediction.
While I recognize that the policy on banning things has changed since Gen 4, the situation feels remarkably similar to me. Action very clearly needs to be taken, and for the sake of competitive integrity for upcoming tournaments, I would err towards a quickban. People seem to agree on the Pokemon being too much. After the dust settles, re-suspect test the Pokemon. To be frank, it doesn't even need to be a significant amount of time to re-suspect G Darm.
Also I am genuinely not sure why people are arguing for a ban of Gorilla Tactics over the Pokemon itself. That is a route that Smogon has deliberately tried to avoid going down for very self evident reasons. I hope that there is no legitimate consideration for a ban of GT over G Darm.
sry if this is kinda stiffly written, i am a tired boy. hope i came across coherently ahh
Galarian Darmanitan reminds me a lot of the situation re:Garchomp in Gen 4. Nothing in the game can stand up to the Pokemon in any reasonable way. One set beats out what works well against the other. Constraining in team composition. No true counter. Non-guaranteed revenge kills. G Darm also has U-Turn so lol that's a thing on top of it all to wear stuff down without factoring in prediction.
While I recognize that the policy on banning things has changed since Gen 4, the situation feels remarkably similar to me. Action very clearly needs to be taken, and for the sake of competitive integrity for upcoming tournaments, I would err towards a quickban. People seem to agree on the Pokemon being too much. After the dust settles, re-suspect test the Pokemon. To be frank, it doesn't even need to be a significant amount of time to re-suspect G Darm.
Also I am genuinely not sure why people are arguing for a ban of Gorilla Tactics over the Pokemon itself. That is a route that Smogon has deliberately tried to avoid going down for very self evident reasons. I hope that there is no legitimate consideration for a ban of GT over G Darm.
sry if this is kinda stiffly written, i am a tired boy. hope i came across coherently ahh
Undermining tiering policy just to preserve a Pokemon by getting rid of something that is not at all broken seems like a terrible precedent to set.
Speaking as the person who started the whole Gorilla Tactics VS Darmanitan-Galar debate, I officially don't care anymore. Truth be told, I never cared that much, but now I'm especially frustrated at the utter gridlock the discussion has entered. Both sides have made some very interesting points and I've loved seeing everyone's interpretations of tiering policy and what is best for the meta, but ultimately I think this is all wearing rather thin.
One thing this entire thread seems to agree on either way is that something needs to be done about Darm in its current state. For these reasons, I think it's finally time for this thread to start wrapping up and for the council to announce a course of actionpreferably a quickban lel
One thing this entire thread seems to agree on either way is that something needs to be done about Darm in its current state. For these reasons, I think it's finally time for this thread to start wrapping up and for the council to announce a course of action
Darm is clearly unhealthy in the metagame and we already wasted 2 weeks on a dynamax suspect when it was very clearly broken and the outcome is inevitable. I am in favor of just quickbanning Darm but if for some reason we do waste time on a suspect again Darm should absolutely not be on the suspect ladder, so we can get a headstart on what a meta without it would be like.
Also the thread has just derailed into a debate on whether or not we should ban an obviously not broken ability, when the priority should be removing the obviously broken pokemon. It seems nearly everyone is in agreement that Darm is broken and the whole point of the thread was to address that.
Also the thread has just derailed into a debate on whether or not we should ban an obviously not broken ability, when the priority should be removing the obviously broken pokemon. It seems nearly everyone is in agreement that Darm is broken and the whole point of the thread was to address that.
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I don't know why people keep saying "we don't ban to nerf pokemon", yet the Arena Trap ban last Gen was specifically to nerf Dugtrio, as was the recent banning of Sand Rush in Gen 5 to nerf Excadrill. How about the Swagger ban in gen 6 to nerf Klefki and other Prankster users? What about the Power Construct ban last gen? Smogon bans to nerf things all the time.
If an ability is proven to be broken on the majority of it's users, then it's fine to ban the ability. I think there is merit to the Gorilla Tactics, as the the only user has been proven to be an issue because of that ability.
Additionally, the whole argument of Huge Power is moot because we never look at abilities in a vaccum. If we did, then Wonder Guard would've been banned ages ago. None of the Huge Power users have ever been proven to be an issue in OU, but if multiple Huge Power users were an issue, the ability would most certainly get looked it. And bans can always be revisited. Look at how Swagger got unbanned in gen 7. So even if a new user of Gorilla Tactics pops up next gen, you can always reexamine the ban.
While I don't care whether Darmanitan-G or Gorilla Tactics gets banned, action has to be taken. I just wanted to say that the argument for banning the ability is fine.
If an ability is proven to be broken on the majority of it's users, then it's fine to ban the ability. I think there is merit to the Gorilla Tactics, as the the only user has been proven to be an issue because of that ability.
Additionally, the whole argument of Huge Power is moot because we never look at abilities in a vaccum. If we did, then Wonder Guard would've been banned ages ago. None of the Huge Power users have ever been proven to be an issue in OU, but if multiple Huge Power users were an issue, the ability would most certainly get looked it. And bans can always be revisited. Look at how Swagger got unbanned in gen 7. So even if a new user of Gorilla Tactics pops up next gen, you can always reexamine the ban.
While I don't care whether Darmanitan-G or Gorilla Tactics gets banned, action has to be taken. I just wanted to say that the argument for banning the ability is fine.
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If I'm not mistaken, megas were banned and not the Pokemon as a whole because they counted as different forms. Well, Zen Mode GDarm should be preserved if it's not broken due to it being a different form.
The form is tied to Zen Mode so like how old Darm was banned from UU and Zen mode was still banned despite obvs not being broken the same applies here. If Garchomp were to have been banned for example, Mega Garchomp wouldn't be banned as well even if technically the form change is tied to Garchompite. This argument would actually have more weight if Zen Mode was the broken aspect of Darm.
while you guys comment on how previous bans on certain abilities already set a precedence that favor banning gaorilla tactics instead, you also need to recognize that banning gorilla tactics sets an even worse precedence in terms of complexity and signature aspects that we as a community should avoid at all costs (we should try ho-oh out without sacred fire in OU! or aegislash without king's shield!). lets not open that can of worms.
at this point no, i am not even sure if council is legitimately considering this option as to what to actually suspect (quick-ban?), so i don't think we should be still talking about it unless they say something about it.
at this point no, i am not even sure if council is legitimately considering this option as to what to actually suspect (quick-ban?), so i don't think we should be still talking about it unless they say something about it.
A Gorilla Tactics ban doesn't set a bad precedent at all, we literally banned Power Construct in Gen 7 to nerf Zygarde. I don't know why you are mentioning complex bans, when people have not been asking for one. If Darumaka-G also had Gorilla Tactics, then banning the ability makes no sense because only one user would be broken.
Moving unto your example about banning moves, moves have only been banned if they induce an unhealthy amount of RNG (i.e. Sheer Cold, Double Team, Swagger in Gen 6, etc). King's Shield and Sacred Fire are great moves, but neither induce RNG, so banning them doesn't fit with how Smogon bans things.
Additionally, when a move or ability is banned, it's banned on everything. So comparing the argument to something as rediculous as "let's try banning Sacred Fire on Ho-Oh" is disingenuous to the side that wants Gorilla Tactics banned. They are not arguing for a complex ban, they're arguing for a simple ability ban.
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I'm sadly forced to write this on phone so you'll have to excuse the formatting~
Darm is absolutely broken and should be quickbanned. I'd rather not rehash too much; it has 2 very powerful sets, both are extremely strong for their own reasons, yada yada. The question of whether it's broken or not isn't really interesting to me; it's brokenness is apparent to almost every high level player. I think suspect vs QB is a better question and while I do think a suspect has merits, ultimately, a quickban will be better for the tier.
In the case of a suspect: we waste ~2 weeks of meta development for a suspect that is rather certainly going to result in a ban. This especially affects the tier in the first few weeks of SPL, and I would argue those weeks are some of the most crucial ones for early tier developments. Should a suspect happen, it would have to be right after Christmas(at the earliest), leaving at least 2 SPL weeks with Darm in them. This will, imo, slow the tier down much more than it needs to.
The upside of a suspect is more formal discussion, maybe a better talk of a GT vs Darm ban(i think a GT ban is more preferable, for the record; Zen Mode is a beneficial keep to the tier and I would compare it to PC Zygarde, but I won't go into it more in this post), and a clearer image of where the community stands.
I honestly don't think that is enough to justify stunted tier growth during the biggest tournament in Smogon. Judging by this thread and interactions with community members, the result will, in my eyes, almost certainly be a ban. A quickban avoids all of these problems, and let's the tier evolve more naturally. Quickban it.
Darm is absolutely broken and should be quickbanned. I'd rather not rehash too much; it has 2 very powerful sets, both are extremely strong for their own reasons, yada yada. The question of whether it's broken or not isn't really interesting to me; it's brokenness is apparent to almost every high level player. I think suspect vs QB is a better question and while I do think a suspect has merits, ultimately, a quickban will be better for the tier.
In the case of a suspect: we waste ~2 weeks of meta development for a suspect that is rather certainly going to result in a ban. This especially affects the tier in the first few weeks of SPL, and I would argue those weeks are some of the most crucial ones for early tier developments. Should a suspect happen, it would have to be right after Christmas(at the earliest), leaving at least 2 SPL weeks with Darm in them. This will, imo, slow the tier down much more than it needs to.
The upside of a suspect is more formal discussion, maybe a better talk of a GT vs Darm ban(i think a GT ban is more preferable, for the record; Zen Mode is a beneficial keep to the tier and I would compare it to PC Zygarde, but I won't go into it more in this post), and a clearer image of where the community stands.
I honestly don't think that is enough to justify stunted tier growth during the biggest tournament in Smogon. Judging by this thread and interactions with community members, the result will, in my eyes, almost certainly be a ban. A quickban avoids all of these problems, and let's the tier evolve more naturally. Quickban it.
Our goal has ALWAYS been to remove the broken thing, not make the broken thing less broken, so that there's "less collateral". And everyone has agreed that Gorilla Tactics is not inherently broken, which leaves me to wonder...
Why is this all of a sudden changing with Darmanitan? Why are we now catering to a Pokemon to make it "less broken"? Just ban the broken Pokemon. I'm amazed that this discussion has gone on for 8 pages at this point. If we want to dance around policy changes, I suppose we could.
Now, I know, someone's gonna "but Power Construct", and guess what, Power Construct gave you access to a new broken Pokemon. It was essentially an ability that functioned as a mega stone. So we ban the megastone. We banned the ability to become the broken Pokemon (only for us to realize the base form was broken in the first place). Gorilla Tactics does not function the same way. Having Gorilla Tactics makes Darmanitan... Darmanitan. We are not banning a form, we are not banning another Pokemon (it would be one thing if this discussion was about Zen Mode) we are suggesting the banning of an already acknowledged "not broken" ability to keep a broken Pokemon from being broken...
I have an issue with this.
I don't care about collateral damage or the lack thereof. Why didn't we ban King's Shield in XY and SM? There was no collateral damage then either. Why are we changing the way we approach banning things all of a sudden?
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ill ignore my ho-oh example for now because i literally forgot entei also learms sacred fire so that point is moot now. this will probably be my last post regarding this discussion tho since we are propbably getting extremely derailed from the main discussion.
i still do not get how the aegislash situation would be any different to wanting to ban gorilla tactics. just because its a move? i mean i am sure a strong case could be made to keep aegislash unbanned in both gen 6 and gen 7 with a king's shield ban. and no it is not a complex ban because it literally is a move that is only learned by aegislash andn nothing else. however aegislash was correctly banned in both gens because it was deemed that, as a whole, it was unquestionably broken.
i still think banning gorilla tactics will set a horrible precedence and will also create problems in the future. imagine we ban gorilla tactics and keep zen mode darmanitan. what happens if one pokemon gets gorilla tactics as a hidden ability (and is clearly not broken with it) or a pokemon is released which only has gorilla tactics as an usable ability? does that pokemon get automatically banned without a chance to showcase its potential effects in the metage or de we unban gorilla tactics and THEN ban darmanitan-galar as a whole? idk, it just sounds icnredibly messy
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