Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - The Three of Us

[Finchinator]

Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Arena Trap.

Arena Trap has been identified as a potentially banworthy ability in the SS OU metagame; trapping with Dugtrio has a large impact on gameplay in the current metagame. Switching is viewed as a fundamental part of how we play competitive Pokemon. Seeing as Arena Trap restricts the ability to switch for anything that is grounded, it should be no surprise that a capable abuser of this ability can be deemed a problem in the context of the metagame. Dugtrio has been one of the best Pokemon in the metagame in recent months; it is able to fit on to balance archetypes and help eliminate common Pokemon in order to help support teammates. This dynamic has been viewed as problematic historically, but we must examine Arena Trap specifically in the SS OU metagame to determine its banworthiness (or lack thereof).

Dugtrio tends to run two sets in the current metagame: Focus Sash and Choice Band. Previously, the latter was seen as superior and saw more usage, but recently the former has risen to prominence. While it is true that Focus Sash Dugtrio is more reliant on support or positioning such as hazard removal or set information, it also is able to trap a wider array of Pokemon, including a number of top threats that are new to the tier.

Honing in on the Focus Sash variant of Dugtrio, users of it are able to eliminate prominent threats such as Kyurem, simply through switching in on any attack and then taking it out with a single Reversal, or Zeraora, after a pivot from Teleport or U-turn allowing for it to come in unscathed. A trend in these interactions is that the field must be cleared of hazards, making reliable Defog or Rapid Spin support mandatory for Focus Sash Dugtrio. Fortunately, this is very possible in the current metagame and using Endure can allow it to be brought down to 1 HP for Reversal as a quick fix to the hazard control issue if need be. It is true that some specific situations, such as the aforementioned Zeraora interaction, require fairly precise pivoting or something to die in order for Dugtrio to revenge kill the threat, which is also worth noting. Dugtrio's fragile nature can hold it back in some situations. With this said, it is able to take advantage of a lot of commonly provoked situations and remove Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Excadrill, Cinderace, Terrakion, and Toxapex, barring Scald burn.

Choice Band Dugtrio is also a strong option; it is able to take out various Pokemon from higher health and even eliminate a handful of walls that could otherwise hold teams together. In particular, Clefable that are not near max physical defense and Bold nature are 2HKOd by Dugtrio, a burn cannot save Toxapex from Earthquake 2HKOing, and Sylveon is 2HKOd with ease. Of course, there are also situations in which Choice Band Dugtrio is called on to handle the aforementioned Pokemon from the Focus Sash paragraph, but it is incapable of handling faster threats like Zeraora without Focus Sash, which can prove to be problematic. Choice Band Dugtrio also has the ability to revenge trap plenty of Pokemon in the context of games with some chip; this can be applied in countless different fashions depending on your team and your opponent's teams. Finally, there are also some less common ideas such as pairing Dugtrio with Trick + Iron Ball Clefable in order to cripple threats like Corviknight or Rotom-Heat, which can expand the scope of Dugtrio's trapping. Overall, Trick being common is quite good for Dugtrio.

While Dugtrio is the lone current abuser of this ability, Arena Trap is the subject of this suspect test. The OU Council decided on this focus because Arena Trap allows for the act of trapping to occur. We believe that this ability may not have a place in the SS OU metagame. We have reasonable cause to believe that Arena Trap could be deemed banworthy on any half-decent Pokemon that would receive it and have tiering precedent to back the decision to make the subject of the suspect test Arena Trap as opposed to Dugtiro. This allows for us to avoid having to address the issue again moving forward if it were to come to that.

Additionally, Arena trap is the same as Shadow Tag in many ways, which was banned from OU previously on the same terms as those outlined above with regards to mass trapping being problematic. Seeing as Pokemon that are not Grounded make up only a fraction of the metagame, this case happens to be quite similar. Even though Dugtrio is the only commonplace abuser of Arena Trap at the moment, the suspect test is asking whether or not this sort of wide-scale trapping ability has a place in the OU metagame. Please note that any posts disagreeing with the subject of the suspect test instead of discussing the banworthiness (or lack thereof) of the suspect will be deleted and potentially infracted.

• To achieve voting requisites, you must reach a minimum GXE of 82 with a minimum of 40 games played on the Pokemon Showdown! OverUsed (OU) ladder
• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUTY. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUTY FINCH.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The aspect being tested, Arena Trap, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will last for two weeks from right now, lasting until March 29th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes the Dugtrio vs Arena Trap debate;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should he common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderater.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leader, Finchinator, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Moderation team.

Each member of the OU Council will write up their thoughts on this suspect test, which can all be found in the second post.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

 

[Finchinator]

As we did during various suspects last generation and the Dynamax suspect, each of the OU Council members will be sharing our personal thoughts on the current suspect in the hope that it sparks good discussion, so feel free to respond to any of our points. If a council member did not submit a paragraph yet, it will be edited in once they write their paragraph in the near future!

ABR

Arena Trap simply allows Dugtrio to trap too much of the metagame. The trappable targets in OU are Bish, Cinderace, Clef, Exca, Jirachi, Keld, Kyurem, Terrak, Pex, Tar, and Zera. Some may say that shed shell can be used to bypass a trapping weakness, but the opportunity cost of using it is immense. For example, a shed shell Pex cannot reliably beat a cm flamethrower Clef and a shed shell Clef cannot reliably wall much of anything. Having so many pokemon vulnerable to trapping places an overly demanding strain on the metagame and I believe removing Arena Trap would create a lot more flexibility and freedom.

bro fist

.

Eo Ut Mortus

Much of the reasoning behind why we banned Dugtrio in previous gens remains relevant today. Dugtrio can trap and thereby invalidate a significant portion of the SS metagame's staples; this imposes a significant degree of risk management when choosing whether or not to build with them, or whether or not to use Shed Shell on a trappable Pokemon. Whereas counterplay to most Pokemon might usually consist of one or two Pokemon, amassing counterplay to Dugtrio involves building one's entire team to be resilient against it. This is too large an impact for a single Pokemon to have on building, especially when exercising precautions against Dugtrio tends to offer no benefit otherwise.

Finchinator

Arena Trap on Dugtrio has been one of the most controversial topics in the SS OU metagame for a few months now. Handling the ability allows for us to tackle the root of the problem while also avoiding any potential repeat issues with other abusers in the future. We have precedent for this and it is also discussed at length in the OP, so I will just focus on Dugtrio. The Focus Sash set has recently become very problematic; it is able to take out a variety of prominent Pokemon while also taking out the normal suspects. The Choice Band set is also superb; it is able to trap many weakened Pokemon while also eliminating a number of walls that are necessary for balance teams in specific match-ups. The impact of Dugtrio's trapping is not to be understated in the current metagame. Many games are blown wide open if and when Dugtrio is able to be effective with Arena Trap. No other Pokemon in the tier have the same unforgiving impact on gameplay and I do not view this dynamic as a healthy one. Switching is a fundamental part of gameplay as we see it and eliminating that through a steady trapper of everything grounded such as Arena Trap Dugtrio is not something that belongs in our metagame. Much like previous generations, I believe that we should ban Arena Trap.

KratosMana

I personally thought Arena Trap should have been gone a while ago, however I also wanted to see how it would do with the new Pokémon Home metagame. But i believe it has become very clear over time that Arena Trap would have to bite the dust again. Thanks to last gen's Dugtrio Attack buff, it's able to net out a ton of very key damage benchmarks in this metagame, notably being able to 2KO most Clefable(one of the best Pokémon in the metagame) sets with Choice Band, for example. Both Choice Scarf and Focus Sash also make it for an excellent Revenge Killer against a ton of common offensive threats, such as Zeraora, Kyurem and Obstagoon(for Focus Sash), Excadrill, Cinderace and Terrakion, to name a few. Arena Trap in general just gives the metagame way more harm than good, creates looping scenarios where teams are unable to function properly because of it, and is way too pressuring to the metagame as a whole. There's too many cases where Pokémon are being forced to run ridiculous sets(see: Shed Shell Terrakion being actually somewhat common, being brought to an SPL game) for me to see it as a healthy part of our metagame.

TDK

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[Finchinator]

Finally, this thread will be locked for twenty-four hours and this post is reserved. We will unlock this and you may post your thoughts in twenty-four hours. Please use the next day to gather your thoughts and brush up on the forum rules.

 

[Finchinator]

hf

 

[Lily]

got reqs!

So a few things before I get into this post:

1) I'm not primarily an OU player, so my opinion probably isn't worth as much; I've followed the tier and had an interest since the start of the generation, but my main tier is UU and as a result I'm probably not as well-versed as others.
2) Most of my experience with the tier has been watching tours rather than ladder, so despite the fact that I did the laddering needed, most of what I'm using to influence my vote is going to be based on tournaments, primarily SPL.


Ladder

I haven't actually found Duggy too oppressive on ladder. I used it on my suspect run, and I ran into quite a few; my team was quite weak to it too, including a Zeraora, Cinderace and a Bisharp. I did absolutely find Sash to be the most problematic set, but even then I didn't feel it was entirely warping the game, just a pretty big annoyance.
This is purely anecdotal. I was running a very offensive team, so there's a chance it was just that Duggy doesn't perform as well against those. I did find myself dismantling many balances with my own Dugtrio; Screech in particular was a massive asset in helping me take down Clefables, Toxapexes etc. and it could be down to my opponents playing poorly, but it certainly goes without saying that Dugtrio is far too punishing of misplays, moreso than any other Pokemon in the tier - and even if you play well, there's a good chance you're going to lose a Pokemon to it without having any control over it. Not really healthy.

But the main issue, in my opinion, has been in tours.


Tournaments

I haven't personally played in any OU tours. However, I think there are some simple usage stats that say a lot about Dugtrio's warp on the metagame.
To start with, let's take a look at Dugtrio's usage itself, taken from this thread (ty Aurella!):

| 10 | Dugtrio | 57 | 21.43% | 50.88% |

This is pretty high, but not at all overbearing on its own. The main issue is the list of Pokemon above it.

Clefable and Excadrill are the only Pokemon in the top 10 that Dugtrio can reliably trap. Even going down to top 20, only Toxapex, Zeraora and Kyurem get added, depending on the set. This means that 14/20 of the top 20 most used Pokemon are untrappable or will consistently beat Dugtrio 1v1. This points to quite a large issue. Dugtrio is so warping that, because it's literally uncounterable, it's effectively mandatory to just use teams that feature Pokemon Dugtrio cannot trap. This is a horrible sign for the metagame.
Many Pokemon simply cannot shine at all despite their excellent attributes. Terrakion, Toxtricity, Cinderace etc. lose so much viability simply because they're weak to Earthquake. It's ridiculously centralising.

Others will probably cover the things I can't find a way to say later in the thread, and I think the council's pieces + the discussion on the np and On The Radar threads have hit the nail on the head. I don't think there's any way Arena Trap can be balanced in this metagame - even if it's just Diglett or Trapinch, it's a fundamentally broken way to play. Dugtrio is simply too much and always will be, it's unhealthy for the metagame just by nature. I can't see this suspect going any other way, and I plan to vote ban for Arena Trap.

 

[dawnbuster]

I don’t have the time to get the suspect vote but I’ll give my honest thoughts about Dugtrio

Even though I play UU and PU more often,When I play OU I never,ever have an issue with Arena Trap Dugtrio even when my team often has Ground as it’s biggest weakness.The thing is that Dugtrio is so frail that it can’t swap in on any attack and most priority moves OHKO or 2HKO if it’s a weaker priority move like Mach Punch.Dugtrio is completely broken against balance teams.If it traps in an Aegislash for example then it removes it with a Choice Band Earthquake or it’s say,a special slash without Shadow Sneak Sash Dugtrio works well.After that certain Pokémon like Durant,Clefable,Corviknight Terrakion can just take over games.It asks you much of the player to play crazy ass mind games and that is why I see Dugtrio as a problem.Since Dugtrio is one of the top ten most used OU mons atm it limits diversity because Excadrill is arguably the only top 10 most used Mon Dugtrio can 100% beat every time.This limits diversity and is unhealthy.Terrakion,Jirachi,,Cinderace,Bisharp,Dracozolt and especially Tyranitar are made so much worse from Dugtrios presence in the metagame and it forces too much on the player.Because of all this I believe Dugtrio/Arena trap is unhealthy and should be removed


Also can’t wait for Verlisfly to roast me when he makes a vid on this

 

[ausma]

Before I detail things: extremely happy this is finally happening.



Ever since Arena Trap became a subject of debate all the way back since Gen 3, we've faced some pretty huge consequences of its existence. A fundamental part of the game is completely stripped away from you unless you're a Ghost or Flying type once this thing is on the field, and at first glance, it seems like a pretty clear cut idea. You play your cards rashly, you get punished with a Dugtrio switchin. Especially now that we have team preview, this thing isn't broken in the slightest, right?

Hah. Loathe this thing. More specifically, the ability that makes it as versatile and constricting as it is.

I've never been a fan of what this ability represented, and the OU Council has an iron will to keep trying it out. Dugtrio seems like such an ineffective user of AT, but with its phenomenal speed tier this gen, alongside many targets to trap and a buffed Attack stat, team building has never been more linear and more constrained. Not only does it strip away a giant facet of the competitive atmosphere by removing switching, but I'd argue to say it's along the same lines of Gen 7 with how much it singlehandedly warps/narrows strategy and team building. Let's put this into perspective: you have a niche/generally effective Pokemon that has a really strong answer against a lot of the game's common meta, allowing for both innovation to thrive as well as the ability to combat extremely powerful cores and allow for the meta to develop. However, it's Dugtrio weak, meaning that a lot of super strong cores both offensively and defensively are able to pry apart your team, without you being able to do anything about it if they make one single, good read. One might argue this is inherently apart of the metagame, but vastly narrowing down the scope of which people are able to both build a team and play in a game promotes the exact opposite.

Competitive Pokemon--Smogon specifically--at its core is meant to promote smart players, innovation, and overall thought when it comes to playing and team building alike. Arena Trap in of itself narrows this prospect down to a simple read and either a consequential offensive beatdown or an unkillable defensive core, simply because it managed to trap a wincon or two. The metagame also becomes stagnant, not because it's stable, but because nobody is able to do anything to combat the strongest cores and allow for the metagame to develop naturally. This is not only extremely unhealthy, but the overall competitive landscape of Smogon is reduced from constant thought and smart ideas/plays to a single read.

Alternatively, you could run a Shed Shell on your Pokemon, but then you incapacitate their potential by forcing a huge supportive option into not being trapped by Dugtrio, which in some circumstances can break the potential of your Pokemon, which is even worse if the opponent hasn't even brought a Dugtrio. For example, Toxtricity is a strong offensive Pokemon that is able to break apart the common defensive core of Toad/Corvi/Clef, however, it needs specs in order to dish the damage needed. In order to not be trapped by Dugtrio, though, it would need a Shed Shell, which completely severs the immediate offensive potential that it would get out of a LO or Specs. This further warps team building, and also gives the Dugtrio user an advantage even if the opponent has prepared for your trapper. There is just no consequence to having a Dugtrio on your team for this reason, and at this point, why wouldn't you? Because of this, if a Pokemon yields absolutely no consequence in running either way, and is able to freely pick apart potential checks without any thought needed other than "pivot into my trapper", then the meta is not only unbearably stagnant/overcentralized, but also promotes an unhealthy, uncompetitive mentality in the process.

Ability based trapping has always been completely asinine to me, and Dugtrio's utility of AT is the embodiment of why I believe this. Once I get my reqs, it's an easy vote for a ban from me 100%.

 

[Pokedom10]

I'm gonna jump on this now before anyone dares to bring up the "Dugtrio is the problem, not AT! Banning AT is too much! Just ban Dug!" argument. AT is 100% the problem, and the best way I can sum it up is by linking a replay from the On The Radar thread from a month ago.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1058816187 (tmacbalanced did this and not me, bc I suck and they're rad.)

By strategically pivoting around to get Seismitoad in, Eviolite Trapinch uses Giga Drain to 2HKO the toad and bring Dracovish in, leading to a clean sweep. It took over 60 turns of pivoting and the minute Arena Trap was used, the game was effectively over.

"Oh, but that was just a smart play! It was a read! Eviolite Trapinch is like playing 5v6 if they don't have toad! What if you get read and come in on something Trapinch dies to before it kills toad?"

Well, trapping like that doesn't really require as much thought or effort as it looked. Pretty much the minute it gets sent out against what it was intended to get sent out against, it's finished. You don't have to pivot to it every other turn. Just have it in the back and wait for the moment to strike, then boom! You win. You don't even need to do a hard read switch, because options like Teleport exist that allow you to switch freely at the end of the turn. Also, if you're really concerned Trapinch will under perform, then you can just use Duggy. Duggy doesn't beat toad/gastrodon, but it beats pretty much every other meta-relevant wall. Heck you don't even have to do that either-or stuff, you can use both, and pivot around to take out certain checks.

"But but but but but what if they kill the trapper before it does its job?"

If they do that, it usually means you were predictable and switched into something at the wrong time. Or they were running some obscure tech specifically for trappers/Shed Shell - which hey. guess what. means they had to beat trapping, the core problem.

Ban it. Goodnight! Or good morning idk timezones

 

[dawnbuster]

Pokedom10 Thank you for saying this.This is why Arena Trap is completely unhealthy.It removes any checks so many Pokémon have making them completely broken.Dracovish can just break through teams like you said but other example like Choice Band Zeroaora sweeps teams out the window after check like Aegislash and Seismitoad are gone because of Dugtrio.

 

[KztxL7]

Pokedom10 Thank you for saying this.This is why Arena Trap is completely unhealthy.It removes any checks so many Pokémon have making them completely broken.Dracovish can just break through teams like you said but other example like Choice Band Zeroaora sweeps teams out the window after check like Aegislash and Seismitoad are gone because of Dugtrio.

Aegislash cannot be trapped by Dugtrio because it is part Ghost. However the sentiment is still clear.

Also my disappointment in this suspect not being named "The Pillar Men" is immeasurable, regardless of how obvious.

 

[Deleted User 464209]

Respectfully, it's getting comical at how each generation this same story plays out. People cry about being unable to switch, trapping gets banned, and then it takes 2 years to realize it's all the actually broken threats that just click one button to sweep that are the real issue. If the tier didn't have stuff that just win when their lone checks die, then things would be so centralized on trapping. It was the same way with ditto and dynamax setup. Come on, people actually citing giga drain trapinch as a problem. Throw around terms like "unhealthy", "fundamentally broken", "uncompetitive" without even defining how arena trap meets these qualities...smh

All arena trap does, and trapping more broadly, is add weight to switching decisions and give the trapping "aggressor" leverage. Same principle as stealth rock having a type I do think there is an argument to be made that dugtrio itself is too fast and too strong to be punishable for a bad trap, especially with sash, but again that is isolated to dugtrio and not a characteristic I think is shared amongst arena trap users as a whole .

Edit: the meme replies below (not volx's) just show how people are irrational about this. Arena trap is currently in the metagame. I don't need to prove that it doesn't violate all these imaginary terms; you need to convince everyone that it doesn't belong.

And yes, volx757 , I if had control (which I don't, so it's pointless discussion), I would either ban lots more to Ubers, or come to accept the fact that Pokemon is inherently unbalanced and not worry about banning things outside of purely chance based things like OHKO moves.

 

[volx757]

Respectfully, it's getting comical at how each generation this same story plays out. People cry about being unable to switch, trapping gets banned, and then it takes 2 years to realize it's all the actually broken threats that just click one button to sweep that are the real issue. If the tier didn't have stuff that just win when their lone checks die, then things would be so centralized on trapping. It was the same way with ditto and dynamax setup. Come on, people actually citing giga drain trapinch as a problem. Throw around terms like "unhealthy", "fundamentally broken", "uncompetitive" without even defining how arena trap meets these qualities...smh

All arena trap does, and trapping more broadly, is add weight to switching decisions and give the trapping "aggressor" leverage. Same principle as stealth rock having a type I do think there is an argument to be made that dugtrio itself is too fast and too strong to be punishable for a bad trap, especially with sash, but again that is isolated to dugtrio and not a characteristic I think is shared amongst arena trap users as a whole .

It is not at all the same principal as stealth rock having a type, I don't know how you came to that comparison. Stealth rock does not take a choice away from the player. On any given typical turn a player has 5 options to choose from, it's the most fundamental aspect of pokemon and taking one of those options away does far more than give the trapping aggressor 'leverage.' Making a correct double switch gives you leverage, or boosting on a protect gives you leverage. Trapping is not just 'leverage,' it's a guaranteed kill.

And while I agree that the being able to snipe so many threats is probably broken and ban-worthy on its own, the arena trap problem is much greater than that. It's the threat of not being able to grab a KO in front of you because then you 100% will lose your mon on the field to Dugtrio. Any grounded threat that's taken sufficient damage is threatened. To me, the most broken part of arena trap is that you can (very frequently) get put into sitautions where the optimal play is not to grab the KO in front of you (and advance the game), but instead of to switch out and try to get yourself in a position to pickup that KO with a different mon (or remove the trapper first), which is incredibly difficult to accomplish.

Your point about things just winning when their checks die is, i'm sorry, stupid. It's not specific to this generation, it has and always will be the case that when a pokemon's checks are gone, that pokemon will have a much easier time breaking the opposing team. This is not a problem with the tier, it's good and healthy and it's just how the game works. So instead of banning half of OU to Uber, we can just remove one problematic ability form the tier and it will be more balanced again. Is your desired alternative really to start banning all of our breakers?

 

[dawnbuster]

@Veez.Ok then Verlisfy tell me how being able to remove checks on Pokémon like Dracovish making them destroy teams is no “unhealthy”,Tell me how removing a key component of the game”switching” and making the player do extreme mind games is “uncompetitive” and tell me how being able to doing all this shit allowing players to win games because of one key Pokémon being killed by a mole is “fundamentally broken”
It’s fundamentally broken because it breaks stall teams in half along with balance teams.

 

[Pokedom10]

Respectfully, it's getting comical at how each generation this same story plays out. People cry about being unable to switch, trapping gets banned, and then it takes 2 years to realize it's all the actually broken threats that just click one button to sweep that are the real issue. If the tier didn't have stuff that just win when their lone checks die, then things would be so centralized on trapping. It was the same way with ditto and dynamax setup. Come on, people actually citing giga drain trapinch as a problem. Throw around terms like "unhealthy", "fundamentally broken", "uncompetitive" without even defining how arena trap meets these qualities...smh

hey

do u know why the click to sweep pokemon are so good rn

their counters are trapped and then they can win

even if it means giga drain trapinch

 

[dawnbuster]

Veez If two different sets of playstyle are bonked by a fuckin Mole then it’s clearly unhealthy for the meta.The fact that Tyranitar for example who would love to have a Chople Berry has to run Shed Shell means is unhealthy.Also before you Verlisfy say that players have to adapt I shouldn’t have to adapt because of a single Pokémon.If a certain team composition becomes a meta trend then you adapt,not because of a single fuckin mole.its like Pheromosa last gen,Players had to run Toxapex on balance to counter Pheromosa which means it’s a broken Pokémon.I know I’m jumping ship here but say for example The Big Six in VGC 2016 players had to adapt to that,But that was a team comp and not one Pokémon changing the meta so that Pokémon is clearly unhealthy if it’s warranting the same as SIX Pokémon

 

[Skinnybiscuit]

For the soul reason of a set me and my friends came up with, (Scarf Truant Durant with Entrainment + Dugtrio with Protect and Hone Claws) I think it should me banned.

 

[Orifice Annihilator]

It is merely a suggestion! But has anyone theorycrafted the idea of perhaps using the item Shed Shell on their Pokemon to escape the perilous grasp of Dugtrio?

For me I find this helps :)

 

[LordHelix]

Not minimodding just a reminder since its not bolded and i had trouble finding it as well

Suspect test rules:
No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes the Dugtrio vs Arena Trap debate;

Anyways i dont have much to add to the discussion since the metagame discussion thread AND the on the radar post talked about this to death really

Please just automatically ban all trapping in the future since trapping is broken (i dont think diglett and trapinch are broke but whatever, we have no choice) and i guarantee this suspect will end in a supermajority ban vote

 

[NuttyRabbit]

It is merely a suggestion! But has anyone theorycrafted the idea of perhaps using the item Shed Shell on their Pokemon to escape the perilous grasp of Dugtrio?

For me I find this helps :)

There is an inherent problem in essentially being forced to run a subtoptimal item such as Shed Shell on particular Pokemon just so you don't automatically lose to Dugtrio or other Arena Trap Pokemon. There's also the fact that since HOME's release, Knock Off has made a resurgence in this meta, with common threats like Toxapex, Zeraora, Bisharp, Seismitoad, Mandibuzz, Ferrothorn, and others carrying it fairly often, so if you accidentally switch your Shed Shell mon into a Knock from any of these, you lose your one way of dealing with Arena Trap.

Just so this is a bit of a meatier answer, I firmly think that Arena Trap is extremely unhealthy for the metagame at large for reasons other users such as volx757 and Lilburr have stated in more detailed, better worded ways. As such, if I were to get reqs, I would vote Ban.

 

[CadmusRhodium]

There is an inherent problem in essentially being forced to run a subtoptimal item such as Shed Shell on particular Pokemon just so you don't automatically lose to Dugtrio or other Arena Trap Pokemon.

Exactly, Terrakion REALLY would like to run a choice item or something I dunno but can't right now because Dugtrio just comes in and kills it. Zeraora almost beats Duggy, but Focus Sash cuts those dreams short. I'm a little scared of what will happen without Duggy around to trap those. Not enough to keep it around, though!

 

[theotherguytm]

Hi, it's me, the guy from the Trapinch replay.
Trapinch @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 8 Def / 252 SpA / 248 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Giga Drain
- First Impression
- Earthquake
- Superpower/other filler
Me and tmacbalanced independently came up with this, with slightly differing spreads. This set's very existence is proof of why Arena Trap deserves the ban.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1058816187

BTW, I consider my play in the replay to be rather terrible. What I moved on to doing (sadly I have no replays as I ladder very rarely) was leading with Pinch. So the poor opponent loses their Stealth Rock setter and Dracovish check on T1. No room for counterplay, no room for player skill involved. Just "whoops I didn't know that could get trapped". Clearly the kind of gameplay that should exist in a competitive environment.
(Also, my Eject Pack Rotom-H didn't work in that replay, but you can guess what it's for :-). Think Toad is safe because it blocks Volt Switch?)

 

[Orifice Annihilator]

There is an inherent problem in essentially being forced to run a subtoptimal item such as Shed Shell on particular Pokemon just so you don't automatically lose to Dugtrio or other Arena Trap Pokemon. There's also the fact that since HOME's release, Knock Off has made a resurgence in this meta, with common threats like Toxapex, Zeraora, Bisharp, Seismitoad, Mandibuzz, Ferrothorn, and others carrying it fairly often, so if you accidentally switch your Shed Shell mon into a Knock from any of these, you lose your one way of dealing with Arena Trap.

Just so this is a bit of a meatier answer, I firmly think that Arena Trap is extremely unhealthy for the metagame at large for reasons other users such as volx757 and Lilburr have stated in more detailed, better worded ways. As such, if I were to get reqs, I would vote Ban.

Correct me if I am wrong! But the item is not suboptimal because it stops you being trapped by Dugtrio yes? This is why I recommend it to be used, to stop being trapped.

 

[theotherguytm]

Correct me if I am wrong! But the item is not suboptimal because it stops you being trapped by Dugtrio yes? This is why I recommend it to be used, to stop being trapped.

That's not the point. The point is you can run it, yes. But having to do so is a waste of an item slot if you don't play against a trapper. Thus, you have a gimped mon for the 9/10 matches where you don't play a trapper just to not autolose the 1/10. Thus is it suboptimal because you lose more than you gain with it, but you have to run it anyway. And then something like the above Trapinch set comes along, and you don't have Shed Shell on the mon your opponent is targeting because you didn't know it could be trapped.

 

[AwokenCraybat]

Let me preface this by saying that I don't think most if any abilities, items or anything normally in game should be considered for banning so quickly.

#0. Team Preview

#1. Dugtrio is far from the most oppressive thing in the SS OU Metagame.
(I don't know absolutely everything about the metagame as no one person could, but fast monsters with high attacking stats, super walls of HP and ability boosted bulk, Tricky mons with great typing, great movepools, seem to be faring well.)

#2. Banning this ability essentially bans a pokemon and an entire VALID way to play the game.

#3. There is so much counter-play it is not even funny.
(If you reply with how trying to check Arena Trap feels inherently like a problem, you're part of the problem)

#4. Team Preview

Definite no when it comes to banning this.

 

[AwokenCraybat]

That's not the point. The point is you can run it, yes. But having to do so is a waste of an item slot if you don't play against a trapper. Thus, you have a gimped mon for the 9/10 matches where you don't play a trapper just to not autolose the 1/10. Thus is it suboptimal because you lose more than you gain with it, but you have to run it anyway. And then something like the above Trapinch set comes along, and you don't have Shed Shell on the mon your opponent is targeting because you didn't know it could be trapped.

There are much other ways to counter arena trap. I don't think using Shed Shell as an example, is being very considerate of the real issue of Arena Trap. Shell shell is literally a counter to an entire problem which is you can't switch out. That's it. The ability and item are super straight forward, but you don't always have to switch.