Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - The Three of Us

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GOthee said:
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te who says shutting down some pokes that left unchecked could destroy a meta?? . Btw also banning arena trap would murder poor Trapinch.
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I'm not entirely sure if you argument is that we should keep Arena Trap only to keep other broken stuff in check or else but that's probably the weakest argument possible. We can simply suspect test o quick ban the other broken shit. We are 4 months into the metagame for God's sake, don't treat it like this will be the last test.

Anyways, Arena Trap is unhealthy in every post team preview gen that was allowed. It wraps the metagame around what can abuse it both as the ability (Duggy, Trapinch) and the ones who get better with it's assistance (Dracovish likes Seismitoad gone with Giga Drain Trapinch support, Sun likes Tyranitar gone, Keldeo likes Toxapex and some fairies like Sylveon gone, etc) while also invalidating others that could perform really well in the metagame like Toxtricity, Dracozolt, Cinderace or Incineroar in this current generation. It's a centralizing ability every time it's legal since B/W and should be gone.
 
Yay one liner uninformed posts with dumb arguments. I almost want this thread to lock now.

NO ONE cares what banning an ability will do to a pokemon's viability. In fact, their overwhelming use and uncompetitiveness led to this thread being made to suspect the ability in the first place. The fact that trapinch is viable in OU at all, let alone a annoyance that can trap and murder walls, is even more testament to how broken arena trap is. It's even better off if it gets banned and drops it's usage, since it has proven to be so uncompetitive that a LC pokemon with a terrible BST is being used in overused frequently.

To be clear, I do not have a bias against anti-ban supporters in the forums. However, most of their posts are either uninformed, nonsensical, flat out wrong, or ad hominem. These people are causing toxicity in the threads, much like AT is causing toxic behavior in the OU community. This is going to devolve into a shouting match if no one intervenes, and all over a pokemon ability that the vast majority of the community is voting ban on anyway.

OH WAIT, Finch DID intervene. No one listened, they all kept parroting around "oH ArEnA tRaP iSn'T tHaT bAd" without giving an explanation. This thread is full of stupidity.

First and foremost, Shed Shell. It is an atrocity that any pokemon should have to run this instead of an actual item, just so they can check dugtrio. No wait, scratch that, TRY to check dugtrio. More often than not, it will get knocked off, or the pokemon in question will just die. There goes your one check and now a team of FIVE pokemon is weak to one. Shed Shell is not a anti-ban reasoning, it's a pro-ban on the basis that people felt the need to run it.

Second, Dugtrio's supposed low effectiveness. The way arena trap works, they switch it in on a pokemon weak to EQ. It dies. The enemy attempts to outspeed or flying type rush it. Duggy runs sash and claims another kill, using stone edge for flying types. Then dugtrio can die, since it doesn't have much purpose, unless you wanna spread condition or abuse regenerator or tank a hit or- yeah it's so versatile and useful despite having only one ability/gimmick.

Third: pokemon that aren't trapped. This is completely and utterly stupid. Almost anything untrapped will die. Pelipper, Heat, Mandibuzz, and Togekiss die to stone edge. And trapped are worse. Zeraora can only dent it's focus sash and die to EQ, and Excadrill and Toxapex are OHKOed and 2HKOed respectively, and the ghost type switches Gengar and Aegislash die to EQ as well.

Every single arguement on anti-ban is ridiculous and uninformed. Please Ban Arena Trap.
 
GOthee said:
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te who says shutting down some pokes that left unchecked could destroy a meta?? . Btw also banning arena trap would murder poor Trapinch.
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Literally everyone making coherent arguments in this thread explained why it could have negative implications on the metagame. Also, preservation of Pokemon that are already irrelevant is not something to factor in here; the fact of the matter is that this was already weighed-in on when deciding the subject of the suspect, which was outlined in the OP.
 
Not even going to bother to get reqs but figured while my sanity is still here and this post is still unlocked I figured I might try to make an actual argument instead of the [REDACTED] anti-ban arguments for Arena Trap. I know, I'm late to the party, you know, the party of fucking uneducated bitchy argumenters that can go delete their fucking posts I swear, but let me get to the actual arguments.

The big and probably main issue that I haven't really seen anyone really talk about except for Showdown_Noob (credit to him for being smart and bringing up this argument), AT pretty much forces the use of otherwise unviable items, that being Shed Shell. Is this healthy? No. This is just as bad as if an unhealthy aspect would force the use of an otherwise unusable pokemon. Back to the main argument. In all seriousness if you have to run Shed Shell to HOPEFULLY check Dugtrio, then something's obviously wrong. Then there's the HOPEFULLY part. You know, the fact that Knock Off is so prevalent in today's OU that, at this point in space and time, it's just gonna get purged and then your check ends up KO'd. Well, fuck it, it's 5 pokemon weak to 1 Dugtrio at this point.

Honestly not gonna bring up more pro-ban arguments because my sanity got divided by 0 from reading the posts in this thread, but this enough kinda proves the point that ARENA TRAP IS UNHEALTHY AND SHOULD BE GIVEN THE BOOT AND BANNED ASAP.
 
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War Incarnate said:
The big and probably main issue that I haven't really seen anyone really talk about except for Showdown_Noob (credit to him for being smart and bringing up this argument), AT pretty much forces the use of otherwise unviable items, that being Shed Shell. Is this healthy? No. This is just as bad as if an unhealthy aspect would force the use of an otherwise unusable pokemon. Back to the main argument. In all seriousness if you have to run Shed Shell to HOPEFULLY check Dugtrio. Then there's the HOPEFULLY part. You know, the fact that Knock Off is so prevalent in today's OU that, at this point in space and time, it's just gonna get purged and then your check ends up KO'd. Well, fuck it, it's 5 pokemon weak to 1 Dugtrio at this point.
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Isn't running Shed Shell pretty much admitting there's a problem? Why is that the most common no-ban argument when it literally means somethings wrong?

Should've been quickbanned imo but I get why there's a suspect. Can we get a 98% ban vote?
 
I've given up on trying to make reqs, but after some trial and error going a combined 30-10 through 2 alts, I can say that the amount of pressure that Arena Trap can put on a team is incredible. There have been games where I would just have my Eject Button Toxapex bring in Duggy to eliminate a threat or have Duggy come in and revenge KO Zeraora in some manner.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1082887290 Here's one such game of the latter happening. I ended up removing Zeraora from the field (and Kommo-o for that matter, but that was neutered by Rotom-Mow's Scarf being tricked onto it) and Cinderace had a party. Knowing that Zeraora was the only thing faster than Cinderace and that defensive Kommo-o handles Cinderace handily, my wincon this game was to wear down Kommo-o and eliminate Zeraora so that Cinderace could go in and wreck house (ask the Clefable how that Pyro Ball tasted).

Dugtrio traps a lot of the meta handily and can remove and revenge kill any threat the user wants it to and opens up doors for certain win conditions. If I were to get reqs, I would have voted to ban Arena Trap because of how easy it is to remove key threats and annoyances.
 
War Incarnate said:
Not even going to bother to get reqs but figured while my sanity is still here and this post is still unlocked I figured I might try to make an actual argument instead of the [REDACTED] anti-ban arguments for Arena Trap. I know, I'm late to the party, you know, the party of fucking uneducated bitchy argumenters that can go delete their fucking posts I swear, but let me get to the actual arguments.

The big and probably main issue that I haven't really seen anyone really talk about except for Showdown_Noob (credit to him for being smart and bringing up this argument), AT pretty much forces the use of otherwise unviable items, that being Shed Shell. Is this healthy? No. This is just as bad as if an unhealthy aspect would force the use of an otherwise unusable pokemon. Back to the main argument. In all seriousness if you have to run Shed Shell to HOPEFULLY check Dugtrio, then something's obviously wrong. Then there's the HOPEFULLY part. You know, the fact that Knock Off is so prevalent in today's OU that, at this point in space and time, it's just gonna get purged and then your check ends up KO'd. Well, fuck it, it's 5 pokemon weak to 1 Dugtrio at this point.

Honestly not gonna bring up more pro-ban arguments because my sanity got divided by 0 from reading the posts in this thread, but this enough kinda proves the point that ARENA TRAP IS UNHEALTHY AND SHOULD BE GIVEN THE BOOT AND BANNED ASAP.
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I totally agree with what you said, but you're wrong to say that no one's brought up the unviable item argument. It's been discussed ad nauseam throughout this thread and the OTR thread. This in addition to Team Preview allowing for easily planned Dugtrio abuse are what pushes it over the top. While some felt Home would ameliorate the problem, I honestly feel it made things worse. The number of threats added that could take advantage of the trapping capabilities sends it even further into banworthy territory.
 
Another thing about Arena Trap that pushes it over the edge imo is the fact that Pokémon have legit fallen to a lower tier because one Pokémon is so overcentralizing means the Pokémon in question is overpowered.Toxtricity was so bullied by the mean,Brown Dugy Bois that it had to leave the OU school and head to the UU school.Tyranitar,Toxapex,Jirachi,Cinderace,Darmanitan,Bisharp,Terrakion,Excadrill(if there’s no sand up),Toarkoal,Toxapex are all the negatively affected OU Pokémon from Dugtrio
 
Also yet Another thing about Dugtrio is the fact that it is the 11th most used Pokémon in OU.The only Pokémon used more then it that are negatively affected by it(From my list above) are Toxapex and Excadrill.In addition Dugtrio vs Dugtrio matchups are pretty much two bombs rolling into each otherIt is just so severally limiting team building that after every thing I’ve mentioned in this thread,I vote Arena Trap to frick off
 
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From what i seen when using dugtrio and playing against it. It is not a problem since it will only win me 2 turns top to set of stealth rocks and hit the other pokemon. It was too many counter plays to the point i dont think its a problem.
It just removes another way to play from Ou.
edit: The reason i started using it, was because i kept getting destroyed by stall teams and not letting pokemon with regen escape is something i consider a valid option since all you can really do agaisnt those is predict what will come in.
 
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Decided to make a quick trip to this thread to see how the anit-ban arguments would fare for AT . . .

I gotta say, did not expect a goddamn war zone on page 4. And all the anti-ban arguments are almost nearly as bad as, if not worse than, the arguments for keeping Dynamax. I have no idea when voting/req collection is gonna end for this, but chances are that I'm not going to involve myself in a decision that is so obvious.
 
excelphantom said:
From what i seen when using dugtrio and playing against it. It is not a problem since it will only win me 2 turns top to set of stealth rocks and hit the other pokemon. It was too many counter plays to the point i dont think its a problem.
It just removes another way to play from Ou.
edit: The reason i started using it, was because i kept getting destroyed by stall teams and not letting pokemon with regen escape is something i consider a valid option since all you can really do agaisnt those is predict what will come in.
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It's not about how many turns that it does something for you, but what it does in those turns, and how its mere presence forces the opponent to avoid making plays that would otherwise be free. Sure, it can't trap ghost types and non grounded mons, but it can potentially trap and kill literally anything else that's not running shed shell (which others have already done a great job at explaining why its usage is indicative of a problem). There are so many situations where your wincon or main breaker is walled by common defensive mons like clefable, ferrothorn, toxapex, seismitoad, gastrodon or snorlax, and all of them are able to be picked off by banded dug after some chip. It basically forces the opponent to be in a 50/50 every single time they want to bring them in, with stakes high enough that getting the 50/50 wrong on a dugtrio double can put them in an unrecoverable borderline game-losing position because they essentially lost a coinflip. On top of that, if your opponent has a strong breaker that is very hard for your team to switch in to (such as specs kyurem, banded terrakion, banded dracovish, etc.), they often can't even take guaranteed KOs because they know that they will just then be revenged killed. Even offensive threats that outspeed duggy, such as zeraora and scarfed darm, often need to fear the risk of a potential sash or scarfed dug. It's a mon that basically can mold itself to be certain to get rid of whatever threat annoys your team. Hell, someone even showed that you can make a fucking Trapinch beat a seismitoad 1v1.
 
I decided to abstain from commenting but since the anti ban side was forced into having only bad arguments, I'd love to leave my 2 cents for posterity. The topic is blacklisted and because of that I won't be allowed to talk about it, but there has been extensive discussion in the On The Radar topic. I don't even know if this post is gonna make it through. Anyway, banning AT as a whole makes no sense since trapinch and diglett didn't show to be problematic and given the fact that magnet pull is graced from being considered uncompetitive, arena trap cannot be deemed uncompetitive as a whole without getting into petty arguments about supposed (non-existent) differences between the two abilities.

Unfortunately the council decided that banning dugtrio wasn't worth the risk of having a potential new suspect down the line, and that's kind of understandable, but yet I find it quite disappointing. At this point nearly the whole community hates AT anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
 
Mr Ponty said:
I decided to abstain from commenting but since the anti ban side was forced into having only bad arguments, I'd love to leave my 2 cents for posterity. The topic is blacklisted and because of that I won't be allowed to talk about it, but there has been extensive discussion in the On The Radar topic. I don't even know if this post is gonna make it through. Anyway, banning AT as a whole makes no sense since trapinch and diglett didn't show to be problematic and given the fact that magnet pull is graced from being considered uncompetitive, arena trap cannot be deemed uncompetitive as a whole without getting into petty arguments about supposed (non-existent) differences between the two abilities.

Unfortunately the council decided that banning dugtrio wasn't worth the risk of having a potential new suspect down the line, and that's kind of understandable, but yet I find it quite disappointing. At this point nearly the whole community hates AT anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
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What was the point in this post other than stating your distaste for the decision made?

We picked up on it from the On the Radar thread. There was absolutely no point in making this post other than making your distaste known, which no one cares about.

We explained why it's noncompetitive at length, get over it.
 
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Well, I got the reqs about as last minute as it gets, but I'll give my opinion anyway.

I'll start out with the fact I am in favor of the ban of Arena Trap. People can argue Shed Shell all they want, but with the reintroduction of Knock Off to the masses, it has made this much less viable. Most pokemon would also benefit from running just about any other item, and having to fear Arena Trap is oppressive to the meta. I used Dugtrio the entire way up the ladder, and I found that I constantly found myself trapping pokemon critical to an opponent's defense, like Clefable and Toxapex, and dispatching them with no issues. One correct prediction would put me in a fantastic position for other pokemon to take over. Sand teams using Tyranitar were also easier to dispatch of, as even if banded EQ failed to OHKO, it would leave Ttar in a crippled position in which it could be taken out swiftly afterwards.

It doesn't stop with Dugtrio either. It has been proven in the past that Diglett and Trapinch have both been used in place of Dugtrio. This shows that the ability itself is worth using beyond the pokemon itself.

I think a meta without Arena Trap will be healthier overall for the game.
 
Showdown_Noob said:
NO ONE cares what banning an ability will do to a pokemon's viability. In fact, their overwhelming use and uncompetitiveness led to this thread being made to suspect the ability in the first place. The fact that trapinch is viable in OU at all, let alone a annoyance that can trap and murder walls, is even more testament to how broken arena trap is. It's even better off if it gets banned and drops it's usage, since it has proven to be so uncompetitive that a LC pokemon with a terrible BST is being used in overused frequently.
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I'm pro-AT ban but "it makes an otherwise unviable Pokemon OU" is the weakest argument this side has. A lot of powerful abilities and moves are limited to Pokemon that would be shit without them. That's the point. It keeps them balanced. For instance (and the specific ability doesn't matter here), Huge Power turned Azumarill and DIggersby from ZU-grade shitmons to BL-at-worst threats. It's very easy to imagine Huge Power hypothetically breaking a Pokemon. But that one Pokemon would be banned, not the ability itself, because doing so would cause less collateral damage.

"But Trapinch isn't like Azumarill or Diggersby, it's clearly broken!" you say. Yes, exactly. Whatever tier Trapinch was originally in, that has nothing to do with its ability to eliminate Pokemon in a way that goes beyond "accepted" trapping methods like Magnet Pull and Pursuit (rip).
 
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onlyheretocomplain said:
I'm pro-AT ban but "it makes an otherwise unviable Pokemon OU" is the weakest argument this side has. A lot of powerful abilities and moves are limited to Pokemon that would be shit without them. That's the point. It keeps them balanced. For instance (and the specific ability doesn't matter here), Huge Power turned Azumarill and DIggersby from ZU-grade shitmons to BL-at-worst threats. It's very easy to imagine Huge Power hypothetically breaking a Pokemon. But that one Pokemon would be banned, not the ability itself, because doing so would cause less collateral damage.

"But Trapinch isn't like Azumarill or Diggersby, it's clearly broken!" you say. Yes, exactly. Whatever tier Trapinch was originally in, that has nothing to do with its ability to eliminate Pokemon in a way that goes beyond "accepted" trapping methods like Magnet Pull and Pursuit (rip).
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Another example is Serperior who shot all the way up from being a meh PU Pokémon to OU stardom because of Contrary.This is why I always thought that Hidden Abilities where one of the best competitive features ever introduced(IK Azumarril has had Huge Power since Gen 3 but still).And the thing about ability ability being banned causing collateral damage has happened in the past with Shadow Tag
 
Looking at the comments on page 4, Orifice was definitely trolling (or saying something useless) when he said he ran shed shell on all six of his Pokémon, but let’s say he didn’t make it so obvious. Then someone insults him, calling his posts pointless garbage.

What would you do if you were a moderator? Would you have made a post similar to Finch’s? If you got a complaint, how would you justify being harsher towards someone who seems like he is trolling than someone who is definitely making insults?

You don’t need to reply to these questions as this is not the main topic of this thread. I also don’t agree with what Orifice said, but I don’t know how to answer some of the questions I asked.
 
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