Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - The Three of Us

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Let me preface this by saying that I don't think most if any abilities, items or anything normally in game should be considered for banning so quickly.

#0. Team Preview

#1. Dugtrio is far from the most oppressive thing in the SS OU Metagame.
(I don't know absolutely everything about the metagame as no one person could, but fast monsters with high attacking stats, super walls of HP and ability boosted bulk, Tricky mons with great typing, great movepools, seem to be faring well.)

#2. Banning this ability essentially bans a pokemon and an entire VALID way to play the game.

#3. There is so much counter-play it is not even funny.
(If you reply with how trying to check Arena Trap feels inherently like a problem, you're part of the problem)

#4. Team Preview

Definite no when it comes to banning this.
There is no substance to this post whatsoever. The only thing I took away from this is that you will be voting Do Not Ban, but nothing else of any value at all.

#0. What does that even mean? The issue of AT cannot be mitigated just by seeing it in team preview. It does not resolve the fact that it's a brainless way to forcibly revenge kill threats and remove walls just by virtue of its existence nor does it resolve the issue of having to run a sub-optimal item on otherwise good Pokemon specifically to counterplay the thing. This is a non-point.

#1. Every Pokemon in OU is in some way included in your sub-point, that's what Pokemon are. Other breakers can be walled however, other walls can be broken, every typing has a weakness. Counterplay is skillfully possible to other mons in the game, less so against trappers who again take minimal prediction to achieve maximal results in almost every case.

#2. Yes, that's the point of banning. Capitalising the word 'valid' does not mean anything, what the hell is a 'valid' way to play? We're looking for an enjoyable way to play in a healthy metagame, who cares if it's 'valid' or not?

#3. A point with no evidence followed by a strawman. What is your extensive list of counter-play options?

#4. Making the same non-point twice doesn't make it any better.
 
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Correct me if I am wrong! But the item is not suboptimal because it stops you being trapped by Dugtrio yes? This is why I recommend it to be used, to stop being trapped.
The issue then becomes "why are you forced to use it?" It's an option, but you shouldn't be in a position building wise where you're forced to run that item for one situation. It's then that you realise "the situation causing it is the issue". You'd rather run something that enables greater damage output/recovery (mon dependant) and isn't just a blank if you don't see duggy
 
Let me preface this by saying that I don't think most if any abilities, items or anything normally in game should be considered for banning so quickly.

#0. Team Preview

#1. Dugtrio is far from the most oppressive thing in the SS OU Metagame.
(I don't know absolutely everything about the metagame as no one person could, but fast monsters with high attacking stats, super walls of HP and ability boosted bulk, Tricky mons with great typing, great movepools, seem to be faring well.)

#2. Banning this ability essentially bans a pokemon and an entire VALID way to play the game.

#3. There is so much counter-play it is not even funny.
(If you reply with how trying to check Arena Trap feels inherently like a problem, you're part of the problem)

#4. Team Preview

Definite no when it comes to banning this.
#0 (Why start with 0?). Not only is Team Preview not a point in your favor. It's a point completely against you. Prior to Team Preview, one would have to scout an opponents Team. Dugtrio had the surprise factor but there was the risk of tossing him out too early. (Was still stupid back then).

Now I can see an entire opponents team, analyze what threat Dugtrio needs to most screw over on the opposing team, and save it specifically for that Pokemon, especially if it's the one thing keeping me from victory. Meanwhile the opponent now realizes he might be playing 5v6 cause Dugtrio will screw him over when it comes in.

#1 Even if Dugtrio isn't the most oppressive thing in the Meta, it doesn't matter. It's enough of a problem that people warrant susepcting it. If there are other problematics things, we'll get to them.

#2 It doesn't ban a Pokemon. Nerf them sure. And what even is a "valid" way to play the game. Can't toss words out there with such a lack of detail and reasoning behind it.

#3 If you're going to talk about how there is so much counter-play "that it's not even funny" at least list off ONE. If you can't even be bothered to do that that calls into question whether or not there actually is or you know that so called counter-play is heavily flawed and you're afraid of it being picked apart. At least when people tried to reason against M-Sableye's banning in Gen 6 OU, people listed off counter-play Pokemon that were very common (Clefable, M-Charizard X, Heatran).

#4 The sake of trying to repeat this like this, I'll just double the points against you.
 
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There are much other ways to counter arena trap. I don't think using Shed Shell as an example, is being very considerate of the real issue of Arena Trap. Shell shell is literally a counter to an entire problem which is you can't switch out. That's it. The ability and item are super straight forward, but you don't always have to switch.
A counter, by definition, is something that can switch into something repeatedly with little risk. Because being able to switch is critical to that definition, the only other "counters" to Arena Trap is to run nothing but Ghosts, Fliers, and Levitaters.
 
There's plenty I don't know so if I'm saying something objectively wrong please just correct me and don't be a jerk about it, I am saying all of this in earnest.The thing is dugtrio doesn't beat every pokemon he can trap. Sure you can't really stop him once you enter a match, if you make one bad read he'll kill the pokemon he can safely trap. That doesn't even happen every time though, even if you have trappable mons on your team. And that doesn't make something inherently uncompetitive. You can easily play around dugtrio when you build your team.

Not every element of every match has to be open for counter-play mid-match, some of it is done in team builder. Some matches are unwinnable if you build your team a certain way. You have to find know the metagame well enough to choose what you will sacrifice synergy for to play around, and what you will accept as a probable loss.

If there was no team that is good against arena trap my opinion would be different but if you want to build around arena trap you easily can, and to varying degrees. You just have to decide how much you will sacrifice to play around it. In a ladder game like showdown, you're never going to win 100% of games, you have to find what gives you the best match-up spread.
 

zbr

rendered asunder
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
The thing is dugtrio doesn't beat every pokemon he can trap. Sure you can't really stop him once you enter a match, if you make one bad read he'll kill the pokemon he can safely trap. That doesn't even happen every time though, even if you have trappable mons on your team. And that doesn't make something inherently uncompetitive. You can easily play around dugtrio when you build your team.
It doesn't matter if he doesn't beat everything he traps, but rather the important part is he traps what he can beat.

Trapping effectively removes a vital element of the game which is switching. There is no reason to have something like this where you are not able to make an optimal play because of an ability that locks you in on the field.

It's time to let this nonsense go.
 
It doesn't matter if he doesn't beat everything he traps, but rather the important part is he traps what he can beat.

Trapping effectively removes a vital element of the game which is switching. There is no reason to have something like this where you are not able to make an optimal play because of an ability that locks you in on the field.

It's time to let this nonsense go.
I mean if you are that worried about arena trap where you never want to be in a situation where you can't switch, there are tools to use. Don't use mons dugtrio can beat+don't use mons dugtrio can trap+shed shell. It's not like there's nothing you can do, you are building your team and you know dugtrio exists.
 

zbr

rendered asunder
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I mean if you are that worried about arena trap where you never want to be in a situation where you can't switch, there are tools to use. Don't use mons dugtrio can beat+don't use mons dugtrio can trap+shed shell. It's not like there's nothing you can do, you are building your team and you know dugtrio exists.
That's the inherent problem. Why run shed shell when I can run leftovers or shuca berry or choice specs? It's not exactly fair to just say "hey run shed shell on your toxtricity because you're afraid of dugtrio" when the fact is it could be running something else like specs. Arena Trapping isn't like Magnet Pull where it's extremely specific. It is a very large scale trapping that allows teams to selectively remove threats without much thought. What you perceive to be a threat to an opponent's team may not be what is actually threatening to his actual game plan and execution, then what happens? the shed shell that you wasted on some mons to dodge dugtrio wasnt actually the mon your opponent want to trap and you end up wasting the item slot and potentially lose a mon unknowingly because you weren't expecting it to be the threat that your opponent want to remove.

I mention magnet pull but please dont discuss about magnet pull. The fact of the matter is that Dugtrio is able to trap what you want it to and other users have also shown that pokemons like trapinch can do similar roles in effectively removing threats on teams. This kinda shows that in essence, trapping and prevention of pokemons switching out is bad in general with team preview and thus should just leave the singles OU metagame.
 
I mean if you are that worried about arena trap where you never want to be in a situation where you can't switch, there are tools to use. Don't use mons dugtrio can beat+don't use mons dugtrio can trap+shed shell. It's not like there's nothing you can do, you are building your team and you know dugtrio exists.
What you're describing is centralization, which as a concept is inevitable and isn't inherently bad. However, there is a key difference between Arena Trap and anything other centralizing force.

Let's say (rolls for a random Pokemon) Magearna is super good. Running a Pokemon that loses to Magearna may not be ideal, but it can still be a workable option, as you have five other Pokemon to handle Magearna with. However, Arena Trap locks your Duggy-weak Pokemon away from its team mates and dooms it to oblivion, unless they run Shed Shell, which is useless in literally every situation where trapping isn't a factor.

While the Magearna-weak Pokemon can escape and come back later to deal with whichever of Magearna's team mates you put it on the team to handle, the Duggy-weak Pokemon is eliminated on the spot.
 
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I mean if you are that worried about arena trap where you never want to be in a situation where you can't switch, there are tools to use. Don't use mons dugtrio can beat+don't use mons dugtrio can trap+shed shell. It's not like there's nothing you can do, you are building your team and you know dugtrio exists.
See, that's the thing. I shouldn't have to run suboptimal options to beat 1 Pokemon. There are a lot of items in this game, all with distinct uses and purposes. Using Shed Shell, which is good for 1 Pokemon, essentially cripples the effectiveness of the mon using it. Sweepers would much prefer a Life Orb or Choice Item, any defensive mon would love Lum Berry or HDB, and literally every single Pokemon loves Leftovers, for good reason. Not to mention getting your item lost to Knock Off is a constant problem, especially when that's your one answer. (the counterplay is run shed shell on everything - which, please don't do that.)

The point of just not using Pokemon Dugtrio can beat/trap is inherently flawed in a few ways, but to sum it up, that's a lot of options you're forgoing just to beat 1 singular Pokemon. Heck Duggy can just adapt and invest into something else to trap something else (or people start using trapinch more but that's a whole other can of worms)

You're very close to the point, I'll give you that. Full props for trying to go around the problem in any way you can.
 
See, that's the thing. I shouldn't have to run suboptimal options to beat 1 Pokemon. There are a lot of items in this game, all with distinct uses and purposes. Using Shed Shell, which is good for 1 Pokemon, essentially cripples the effectiveness of the mon using it. Sweepers would much prefer a Life Orb or Choice Item, any defensive mon would love Lum Berry or HDB, and literally every single Pokemon loves Leftovers, for good reason. Not to mention getting your item lost to Knock Off is a constant problem, especially when that's your one answer. (the counterplay is run shed shell on everything - which, please don't do that.)

The point of just not using Pokemon Dugtrio can beat/trap is inherently flawed in a few ways, but to sum it up, that's a lot of options you're forgoing just to beat 1 singular Pokemon. Heck Duggy can just adapt and invest into something else to trap something else (or people start using trapinch more but that's a whole other can of worms)

You're very close to the point, I'll give you that. Full props for trying to go around the problem in any way you can.
Please don't use words like "inherently" or "fundamental", because as objective everyone tries to be with the way they want to play Pokemon, it becomes exclusively subjective. Dugtrio is the only FE pokemon with this ability and the creators of Pokemon did balance the monster enough to let there be counterplay. It's a ground type for Christ's sake. I just wish people would tackle the problem for what it really is... Dugtrio. Trapinch having Arena Trap and this post doesn't exist but when you give that ability to a speed demon people feel as though the game isn't treating them fairly at this point. Play around with Dugtrio in actual games and you will find out that you need to support him, give him a specific niche (he can't kill everything obviously). And you will find out that you still have to predict correctly. Maybe you will come around on this one and see that Dugtrio isn't the problem but Overcentralizing pokemon that take no risk and all reward (Lando-T) are the real toxic parts of the metagame. Not a niche groups of ground boys.

What you're describing is centralization, which as a concept is inevitable and isn't inherently bad. However, there is a key difference between Arena Trap and anything other centralizing force.

Let's say (rolls for a random Pokemon) Magearna is super good. Running a Pokemon that loses to Magearna may not be ideal, but it can still be a workable option, as you have five other Pokemon to handle Magearna with. However, Arena Trap locks your Duggy-weak Pokemon away from its team mates and dooms it to oblivion, unless they run Shed Shell, which is useless in literally every situation where trapping isn't a factor.

While the Magearna-weak Pokemon can escape and come back later to deal with whichever of Magearna's team mates you put it on the team to handle, the Duggy-weak Pokemon is eliminated on the spot.
He isn't describing centralization though. He is describing counter-play and clearly outlines it as such in the post.

Also, Dugtrio doesn't just come out of the fking blue he is either in on the first turn, and you can pick a pokemon that doesn't get rekt by dugtrio. And throughout the game just try to bait it out and then you're up 6-5 in pokemon.

That's the inherent problem. Why run shed shell when I can run leftovers or shuca berry or choice specs? It's not exactly fair to just say "hey run shed shell on your toxtricity because you're afraid of dugtrio" when the fact is it could be running something else like specs. Arena Trapping isn't like Magnet Pull where it's extremely specific. It is a very large scale trapping that allows teams to selectively remove threats without much thought. What you perceive to be a threat to an opponent's team may not be what is actually threatening to his actual game plan and execution, then what happens? the shed shell that you wasted on some mons to dodge dugtrio wasnt actually the mon your opponent want to trap and you end up wasting the item slot and potentially lose a mon unknowingly because you weren't expecting it to be the threat that your opponent want to remove.

I mention magnet pull but please dont discuss about magnet pull. The fact of the matter is that Dugtrio is able to trap what you want it to and other users have also shown that pokemons like trapinch can do similar roles in effectively removing threats on teams. This kinda shows that in essence, trapping and prevention of pokemons switching out is bad in general with team preview and thus should just leave the singles OU metagame.
You should really lay out the situation where duggy is so oppressive, after Tox kills a mon and you get countered? Doesn't that happen with every pokemon in the game when they get countered?
 
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I can boil down your main problem with this; You think you know more than anyone who has a different opinion than you.
Ono guys we've been exposed quick deploy the ratio

Buddy. By saying this you just did the exact same thing.

Please don't use words like "inherently" or "fundamental", because as objective everyone tries to be with the way they want to play Pokemon, it becomes exclusively subjective. Dugtrio is the only FE pokemon with this ability and the creators of Pokemon did balance the monster enough to let there be counterplay. It's a ground type for Christ's sake. I just wish people would tackle the problem for what it really is... Dugtrio. Trapinch having Arena Trap and this post doesn't exist but when you give that ability to a speed demon people feel as though the game isn't treating them fairly at this point. Play around with Dugtrio in actual games and you will find out that you need to support him, give him a specific niche (he can't kill everything obviously). And you will find out that you still have to predict correctly. Maybe you will come around on this one and see that Dugtrio isn't the problem but Overcentralizing pokemon that take no risk and all reward (Lando-T) are the real toxic parts of the metagame. Not a niche groups of ground boys.
What exactly is your point here? What counterplay? Lando T has nothing to do with this, at all?? What, you think these are niche??? They're on every other team???? FE POKEMON???? I didn't know we were talking about Pokemon Conquest, great game, fricken needs a sequel.

Huh?

Don't use the words "inherently"? What does that have to do with anything?

Listen. It does not matter if Duggy does not do its intended purpose every single match. The problem is that Duggy can dispatch anything it wants for free. A weakened threat, a wall who needs to switch around to deal with its checks, anything with a Ground weakness, anything that can't tank a Focus Sash Reversal. Even if your Duggy was supposed to kill the Toxapex, it can still be used to effectiveness to kill other Pokemon, that cannot switch out. At the end of the day Duggy does too many things with 1 ability. Suboptimal playstyles around shed shell are not gonna cut it. Not using Ferrothorn bc it loses to Duggy is gimping your ability to win. "Just don't get trapped" is sounding a lot like "just don't get grabbed". No thanks.

He isn't describing centralization though. He is describing counter-play and clearly outlines it as such in the post.
Read the post. Yes. He is literally describing centralization. Centralization with counterplay is still centralization. Plain and simple.
 

zbr

rendered asunder
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
You should really lay out the situation where duggy is so oppressive, after Tox kills a mon and you get countered? Doesn't that happen with every pokemon in the game when they get countered?
hmm. so you want me to waste my time to list out every possible situation? it's quite.. pointless? anyway, arena trap has been quite discussed to death at this point and honestly this suspect test is just for formality's sake but here we go.

I want to just say that you have literally pinpointed the issue with Arena Trap and that is the stress and strains on teambuilding. This game should be one that we can decidedly say "ok, im gna build this team around mon A and I'll work it out from there" This stage should allow us to team build based on what we want to in the most OPTIMAL manner. This means that if we run Toxtricity or Neutralizing Gas Gweezing, we can opt to run the optimal set and the optimal item. Mons like Gweezing NEED leftovers to supplement the lack of healing moves and to suggest that we run shed shell over that is promoting non optimal set and that in itself shows that at a teambuilding level we are restrained. overall, a lot of players can say "wah I never had issues with arena trap, just slap a shed shell and you're done" but the fact is knock off is prevalent and if your opponent isn't running arena trap then the shed shell is a useless item. hence in general making it extremely sub optimal compared to other battle items.

On an execution level, seeing dugtrio on the opposing team creates an unnecessary pressure to not misplay. Why I can say this is because when Dugtrio is used on the opposing team, your misplay may end up irrecoverable because you cannot switch out to try and minimize your misplay whereas the dugtrio player can just say "oh oops i trapped the wrong mon that I can't kill, better gtfo then try again later" It also means your play for that turn that dugtrio is in is telegraphed. Information is key in a game of pokemon and knowing that your opponent 1. cannot switch and 2. is going to go for a certain move, helps ensure that you make a more safer play with lesser risk. This in itself skews the game more towards the side of the arena trap player and in mirror matches this skew is even more prevalent.

I really dk how much more I can say to advocate that arena trap ban will allow for a healthier gameplay, when the stakes are high and the match decides whether your team wins or loses, you dw to have to say at the end of the day "man i fucking lost to trapinch because I misclicked and my seismitoad died as a result" just ban arena trap
 
Let me preface this by saying that I don't think most if any abilities, items or anything normally in game should be considered for banning so quickly.

#0. Team Preview

#1. Dugtrio is far from the most oppressive thing in the SS OU Metagame.
(I don't know absolutely everything about the metagame as no one person could, but fast monsters with high attacking stats, super walls of HP and ability boosted bulk, Tricky mons with great typing, great movepools, seem to be faring well.)

#2. Banning this ability essentially bans a pokemon and an entire VALID way to play the game.

#3. There is so much counter-play it is not even funny.
(If you reply with how trying to check Arena Trap feels inherently like a problem, you're part of the problem)

#4. Team Preview

Definite no when it comes to banning this.
So... Why is it that in every past gen with Team Preview, Arena Trap is banned, but in older gens it's not? Hmm. I think there's an issue with your logic here. I'm not going to even bother to respond to your other points because you can argue the exact same points for not banning Zacian, and you don't provide any evidence for them.
There are much other ways to counter arena trap. I don't think using Shed Shell as an example, is being very considerate of the real issue of Arena Trap. Shell shell is literally a counter to an entire problem which is you can't switch out. That's it. The ability and item are super straight forward, but you don't always have to switch.
Sure, you can just let the mon Duggy/Trapinch/Diglet traps die. It's not like anyone using Arena Trap will be stupid enough to leave Duggy in unless it beats the mon in front of it. Or you can run mono-Ghost. That works I guess. But oh wait, once again you lose every game where you don't face a trapper. This is why it is uncompetitive, as to obtain the optimal win-loss rate, you have to auto-lose to trappers, because foreplay to trappers is so specific, it is useless in every other matchup.
There's plenty I don't know so if I'm saying something objectively wrong please just correct me and don't be a jerk about it, I am saying all of this in earnest.The thing is dugtrio doesn't beat every pokemon he can trap. Sure you can't really stop him once you enter a match, if you make one bad read he'll kill the pokemon he can safely trap. That doesn't even happen every time though, even if you have trappable mons on your team. And that doesn't make something inherently uncompetitive. You can easily play around dugtrio when you build your team.

Not every element of every match has to be open for counter-play mid-match, some of it is done in team builder. Some matches are unwinnable if you build your team a certain way. You have to find know the metagame well enough to choose what you will sacrifice synergy for to play around, and what you will accept as a probable loss.

If there was no team that is good against arena trap my opinion would be different but if you want to build around arena trap you easily can, and to varying degrees. You just have to decide how much you will sacrifice to play around it. In a ladder game like showdown, you're never going to win 100% of games, you have to find what gives you the best match-up spread.
And the best match-up spread is to not run counterplay to it, since Dugtrio only has about a 10% usage rate and the counterplay is useless in every other matchup. See the issue? Again, yes you can run mono-Ghost if you want, but hey, that's why Toxitricity's in UU despite being good at taking apart common OU cores.
I mean if you are that worried about arena trap where you never want to be in a situation where you can't switch, there are tools to use. Don't use mons dugtrio can beat+don't use mons dugtrio can trap+shed shell. It's not like there's nothing you can do, you are building your team and you know dugtrio exists.
Yes, Shed Shell exists. We know. Go watch some SPL replays and you'll see loads of them. But oh no, the Shed Shell on your Toxapex took a Knock Off from a random mon (and 50% of the mons in the game know that move). Now what? Do you bench the Pex for the rest of the game??? "Run Shed Shell" is what we've been doing for the last who knows how long. And we're fed up of it. We're fed up of lead Dugtrio on Hyper Offense instantly securing the prefect matchup for the Cloyster that's about to setup. We're fed up of Air Balloon Dugtrio, Giga Drain Trapinch, and all other kinds of random garbage that makes you say "whoops, I had no idea that could be trapped, guess I instantly lose lol". Because with trapping, there is ALWAYS a way if the trapper is determined enough.
Please don't use words like "inherently" or "fundamental", because as objective everyone tries to be with the way they want to play Pokemon, it becomes exclusively subjective. Dugtrio is the only FE pokemon with this ability and the creators of Pokemon did balance the monster enough to let there be counterplay. It's a ground type for Christ's sake. I just wish people would tackle the problem for what it really is... Dugtrio. Trapinch having Arena Trap and this post doesn't exist but when you give that ability to a speed demon people feel as though the game isn't treating them fairly at this point. Play around with Dugtrio in actual games and you will find out that you need to support him, give him a specific niche (he can't kill everything obviously). And you will find out that you still have to predict correctly. Maybe you will come around on this one and see that Dugtrio isn't the problem but Overcentralizing pokemon that take no risk and all reward (Lando-T) are the real toxic parts of the metagame. Not a niche groups of ground boys.
Gee, who's this Lando-T you're talking about? He doesn't exist lol. And Dugtrio is hardly niche, it is the 10th most used mon in SPL, used on 1/5 teams lol. It is a real issue. And again, the argument you're making is equally applicable to not banning Zacian. (Btw, most experienced players agree that Lando-T is part of the solution to a healthy metagame lol. RN Clefable is doing that, but it's doing it in a healthy way because it's not putting undue constraint on teambuilding any more than other top mons, and it is holding the metagame's defensive cores together by a thread. There is no magic fairy land where every mon is equally viable lol, that's the whole point of having tiers. There will always be a "best mon". And no, before you try and argue that, something does not have to be the "best mon" to be banworthy.)
He isn't describing centralization though. He is describing counter-play and clearly outlines it as such in the post.

Also, Dugtrio doesn't just come out of the fking blue he is either in on the first turn, and you can pick a pokemon that doesn't get rekt by dugtrio. And throughout the game just try to bait it out and then you're up 6-5 in pokemon.
Except the Dugtrio user... Can switch out? Lol? Also having to choose a lead that doesn't get Duggy trapped makes you predictable.
ou should really lay out the situation where duggy is so oppressive, after Tox kills a mon and you get countered? Doesn't that happen with every pokemon in the game when they get countered?
Again, you can switch out. And save your countered mon for later. With Duggy you can't. Hence this suspect. QED.
 
Let me preface this by saying that I don't think most if any abilities, items or anything normally in game should be considered for banning so quickly.

#0. Team Preview

#1. Dugtrio is far from the most oppressive thing in the SS OU Metagame.
(I don't know absolutely everything about the metagame as no one person could, but fast monsters with high attacking stats, super walls of HP and ability boosted bulk, Tricky mons with great typing, great movepools, seem to be faring well.)

#2. Banning this ability essentially bans a pokemon and an entire VALID way to play the game.

#3. There is so much counter-play it is not even funny.
(If you reply with how trying to check Arena Trap feels inherently like a problem, you're part of the problem)

#4. Team Preview

Definite no when it comes to banning this.
It is beyond bizarre you would bring up Team Preview twice when Team Preview is what makes Dugtrio so broken in the current metagame. Previously the free turn given up by the Dugtrio user could prove detrimental. Now the Dugtrio user can easily plan out the abuse of trapping mechanics while easily being able to predict their opponent's optimal move after the trap has finished. And the problem is not that counterplay "feels" wrong. It's that virtually any counterplay you can think of is totally useless against any team without Dugtrio.
 
Since my job stopped due to corona, i'll have time to get sime requirements to vote.

I am surprised this is a suspect test though, seems like most informed people agree that this is uncompetitive.

Oh well, I agree with most of the posts here and on the radar: AT forces unviability on perfectly fine pokemon due to their specific bad matchups, strains teambuilding to pokémon that arent as weak or shed shell and requires you to give up on optimal moves to focus on saving your pokémon from chip and being killed by dug.
 
Please stop responding to AwokenCraybat

He blatantly cheated in the suspect and he clearly has no clue what he is saying. This thread does not need to devolve into people ganging up on uninformed posters
I dunno what's funnier. The fact that he did or the fact that I'm not surprised.

Anyways quick question, just how many Pokemon are struggling in the current meta specifically because of Duggy? I'm thinking Tyranitar and Terrakion are the big 2, but I know there's definitely more. And of those Pokemon, how many would genuinely break the game after Duggy leaves? Zeraora isn't struggling but it might get better once it's gone.
 
I dunno what's funnier. The fact that he did or the fact that I'm not surprised.

Anyways quick question, just how many Pokemon are struggling in the current meta specifically because of Duggy? I'm thinking Tyranitar and Terrakion are the big 2, but I know there's definitely more. And of those Pokemon, how many would genuinely break the game after Duggy leaves? Zeraora isn't struggling but it might get better once it's gone.
Zeraora dies vs Duggys that still have Sash in tact, as does Bisharp, Keldeo, Kyurem, Jirachi. Leads like Exca and the previously mentioned Terrakion can be dead as soon as the match begins. Toxtricity is an interesting mon that's made hard to justify on teams due to Duggy's existence. Popular defensive mons like Clefable, Toxapex, and Ferrothorn lose to Banded or Screech variants of Duggy. I personally don't see any of these mons breaking the game after Duggy's removal but even if they do that doesn't justify broken checking broken; if anything does come out of the woodwork after Duggy's ban then it'll be dealt with later too.
Just a side-note concerning the false reqs claim, he put up a screenshot claiming to be at 1800 on the ladder after 42 games. Checking on the OU ladder there is no such account anywhere on the entire thing, and looking up his username on PS shows that that account is actually at sub 1200 elo.
 

Orifice Annihilator

Banned deucer.
The issue then becomes "why are you forced to use it?" It's an option, but you shouldn't be in a position building wise where you're forced to run that item for one situation. It's then that you realise "the situation causing it is the issue". You'd rather run something that enables greater damage output/recovery (mon dependant) and isn't just a blank if you don't see duggy
But you are not forced to use it, we all have liberty when playing Pokemon! You can choose to run items such as choice band, specs, leftovers, Leppa Berry, Assault Vest but I choose to use Shed Shell as it is a good item :heart: I am surprised not many people know Shed Shell exists as an item...

I think more people in this suspect should experiment with using Shed Shell as I do not believe many people know about this item existing or the efficacy! So I have posted a Rate My Team to show case how I have used it to great success on the ladder: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gg-easy-genious-streagies-peaked-1300.3661256/

Any questions please feel free to ask!
 
But you are not forced to use it, we all have liberty when playing Pokemon! You can choose to run items such as choice band, specs, leftovers, Leppa Berry, Assault Vest but I choose to use Shed Shell as it is a good item :heart: I am surprised not many people know Shed Shell exists as an item...

I think more people in this suspect should experiment with using Shed Shell as I do not believe many people know about this item existing or the efficacy! So I have posted a Rate My Team to show case how I have used it to great success on the ladder: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gg-easy-genious-streagies-peaked-1300.3661256/

Any questions please feel free to ask!
Shed Shell gets nuked by random Knock Offs (now a problem again with Home) and less-random Trick/Switcheroo, which means your one counter to an opponent's problem Pokemon is now vulnerable to Dugtrio. And as has been said earlier, if Terrakion/Jirachi/Kink's mother becomes a problem it will be banned, too.

Hi, I don't play Pokemon anymore but I still like to pop in to the forums occasionally. Trapping Abilities have always been and will always be busted, I don't know why ST and AT aren't quickbanned at the start of a gen and revisited later, but at least something's being done now. Good job, OU Council.
 

Ausma

pick a sack.
is a Pre-Contributor
I dunno what's funnier. The fact that he did or the fact that I'm not surprised.

Anyways quick question, just how many Pokemon are struggling in the current meta specifically because of Duggy? I'm thinking Tyranitar and Terrakion are the big 2, but I know there's definitely more. And of those Pokemon, how many would genuinely break the game after Duggy leaves? Zeraora isn't struggling but it might get better once it's gone.
Thing is, a lot of the meta is, and a lot of things that could be used to help progress the meta are as well, namely things like Toxtricity which enjoy taking apart the big defensive trio of the tier. If you ask me, though, stuff like Zeraora and Terrakion are also severely hampered by Duggie's presence, as their wallbreaking capabilities that similarly threaten common defensive cores are considerably dampened with the mere threat of Dugtrio possibly entering the field and erasing them. Aggression and innovation is discouraged when your win-cons are able to be switched into and sent to the shadow realm without you being able to do anything about it.

I personally believe this is the biggest issue with Arena Trap. The meta becomes overcentralized around common cores to the point where you can't do anything to combat them just because of the threat of having your answer trapped and KO'd just by switching it in and trying to punish said core. As I said in my original post, the meta becomes incredibly stagnant and nothing changes just because people can't do anything to actually combat it without threat of Dugtrio simply coming in and safely destroying any chance to break a core. Additionally, as many people before said, running Shed Shell is inherently sub-optimal due to you not running into it 9/10 games, which only further reinforces the defensive potential of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier due to the handicap of having no item, and disallowing any further development of our metagame.

I want to illustrate this idea with a bit of a usage statistics observation. Aside from misunderstanding some mechanics of SWSH (such as Strong Jaw affecting Fishious Rend) and some rises here and there, the only huge change we've had to OU is through Pokemon Home, which wasn't an effect of the meta itself, but rather a completely external factor. The only reason the metagame really changed was because we had new stuff like Toxic Aegislash, Zeraora, Terrakion, Jirachi, and Keldeo. Even with these threats that we expected to utterly transform what we understood of SWSH OU, Pokemon like Seismitoad, Corviknight, Clefable, Dragapult, and the fabled Duggie stayed at the top. Why is that? Wouldn't these new Pokemon challenge the throne and make things such as Corviknight not as effective, especially Zeraora with its amazing coverage and the ability to thrash top threats, or Terrakion with its sheer wallbreaking potential and ravenous STABs?

Dugtrio traps them both, and... well, you can't really use a Pokemon aggressively that can be consistently obliterated with two clicks.
 
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But you are not forced to use it, we all have liberty when playing Pokemon! You can choose to run items such as choice band, specs, leftovers, Leppa Berry, Assault Vest but I choose to use Shed Shell as it is a good item :heart: I am surprised not many people know Shed Shell exists as an item...

I think more people in this suspect should experiment with using Shed Shell as I do not believe many people know about this item existing or the efficacy! So I have posted a Rate My Team to show case how I have used it to great success on the ladder: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gg-easy-genious-streagies-peaked-1300.3661256/

Any questions please feel free to ask!
People know that Shed Shell exists, and it’s been used for years and years now across multiple generations of Pokémon. This isn’t some creative discovery that renders trapping abilities useless. If you need to run the same item on all 6 of your Pokémon to avoid being trapped, that is a clear sign that the ability is unhealthy or uncompetitive. In any matchup where you play a team without an Arena Trap user, you literally have 6 useless items on your team and are massively disadvantaged, just so you won’t get trapped in the 10% of games you actually do play Dugtrio/Trapinch. You also don’t acknowledge how items can be removed via moves like Knock Off (which is EXTREMELY common) or Trick, which makes Shed Shell a moot point.
 

Ophion

Gotta get the right perspective
is a Smogon Social Media Contributor
But you are not forced to use it, we all have liberty when playing Pokemon! You can choose to run items such as choice band, specs, leftovers, Leppa Berry, Assault Vest but I choose to use Shed Shell as it is a good item :heart: I am surprised not many people know Shed Shell exists as an item...

I think more people in this suspect should experiment with using Shed Shell as I do not believe many people know about this item existing or the efficacy! So I have posted a Rate My Team to show case how I have used it to great success on the ladder: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gg-easy-genious-streagies-peaked-1300.3661256/

Any questions please feel free to ask!
1.) It's only an item because Dugtrio exists and has literally 0 other realistic applications. People know it exists and is even used on Pokemon such as Toxapex and Terrakion in SPL but it's only good for one thing, didn't know the definition of a good item was something so situational, thank you for teaching me that. Also Knock Off and Trick are super prominent in this metagame so just having a Shed Shell isn't really gonna solve the overall issue. Also, no one is saying you can't run any other items, it's that you're being potentially chokeheld into running a shitty item because of Dugtrio's overbearing presence. And should we run Shed Shell on every Pokemon Dugtrio traps? Because that's realistically the only "true" counter save running 6 Flying- or Ghost-types I guess.

2.) I didn't know "great success" meant 1300s on the ladder. I must've been called a Pokemon prodigy when I hit 1500s for the first time god damn.

3.) Yes, you really beat Dugtrio, just took you gimping every fucking Pokemon on your team to do so. Also, I didn't know beating Dugtrio meant using literally 0 Ground resists. I guess I'm not enlightened enough to see the genius.

In any case, none of the posts you've made (or any other antiban post I've read quite frankly) in this thread have amounted to anything of actual value or something to actually consider by the majority of informed players and more or less boil down to "I use Shed Shell and others should too because it makes Dugtrio not broken" or "Just don't use Pokemon trapped by Dugtrio", the latter being a non-point entirely and having absolutely 0 merit. These exact points were discussed by ABR, Eo, and KratosMana's takes on AT within the 2nd post of the fucking thread (I guess reading is for amateurs).

I'm not gonna go over why AT is an uncompetitive aspect to the game seeing as those in this thread (discussion of AT starts at post #336) have explained it perfectly as have quite a few other users here, namely this post which dissects the differences between Dugtrio's use and success on the ladder compared to that of SPL, where it's really a massive issue, which I feel many antiban people are overlooking. AT also doesn't really bring anything of actual value or benefit to the metagame at large in general regarding defensive utility or whatnot. Also, why AT is uncompetitive since Gen 5 has not changed between then and now, so yeah, here's the SM thread so the similarities can be seen here as well as the pole done for players from Smogon Tour 25 when this topic was brought up for BW, which can be found here and the thread that corresponds with it can be found here. Hopefully, this suspect test ends with the banning of AT so the metagame becomes healthier and has one less uncompetitive element.
 
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