On The Radar Vol. 2 [See Post #336]

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The only reason not to quickban darm (or GT, which i guess there's argument to ban over darm itself?), is due to the controversy caused when casuals find out smogon 'randomly' removed a mon, but that shit is going to happen regardless, even if there is a 90% vote. At least with normal suspect test, we can say 'why the fuck didn't you get reqs and stop them?'. Can imagine shofu's fanbase losing their shit when he post "my mascot banned lol" and the popcorn will be super sweet.

I'm for QB darm but I think it should be discussed more thoroughly on whether darm or GT should be the culprit, and we should also consider the impact a quick ban could have on smogon's image, but i don't think this is the thread to care for such silly things given the topic is the metagame itself and not the morale of quickbans as a whole. GT could potentially go instead since its why darm is so oppressive, banning darm also bans its zen mode, and there's no collateral to GT given only darm gets it.
 
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Yung Dramps

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The only reason not to quickban darm (or GT, which i guess there's argument to ban over darm itself?), is due to the controversy caused when casuals find out smogon 'randomly' removed a mon, but that shit is going to happen regardless, even if there is a 90% vote. At least with normal suspect test, we can say 'why the fuck didn't you get reqs and stop them?'. Can imagine shofu's fanbase losing their shit when he post "my mascot banned lol".

I'm for QB darm but I think it should be discussed more thoroughly on whether darm or GT should be the culprit, and we should also consider the impact a quick ban could have on smogon's image.
Is there a PR issue with quickbanning Darm? Quickbans for Pokemon are standard procedure, especially in the early parts of a meta. I don't think we're gonna get much outrage beyond the usual offenders like He Who Must Not Be Named.
 
Shofu seems to be a reasonable guy, not the greatest player in the world but he knows his stuff and would most likely understand that Darm just isn't okay in 6v6 singles

source: met him at a smash tournament
I don't mean to start a shofu discussion, but definitely. I actually think he'd take it well (infact i think he said darm is gross himself), more concerned about the playerbase surrounding him since a lot of shofu fans will start an upset about his mascot being gone and the fact they can't use their diety's signature mon. I know we shouldn't care but I'd rather avoid a brain tumor from the upset than quickban and watch children complain about how smogon quickbanned something either because we're biased, or because we knew shofu's fanbase will mass grind for reqs (which we know majority won't get them anyway if they even try) to attempt to save it. Smogon quickbanning stuff isn't new but considering the mon in question I think we should consider the effect it has in this particular case, even if the outcome of it needing to go being tattoo'd on its forehead. Be different if this was for say-vish because at least majority can agree on vish being toxic and vish won't have any cult followings tied to it to piss off.

I'd rather just see darm go, I just thought I'd mention that as food for thought since there was post defending for and against quickbans, somebody mentioned the council being more cautious due to PR issues, and this is something to consider for this particular case.
 
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Is there a PR issue with quickbanning Darm? Quickbans for Pokemon are standard procedure, especially in the early parts of a meta. I don't think we're gonna get much outrage beyond the usual offenders like He Who Must Not Be Named.
There can be.
Quick Bans are typically reserved for blatantly obvious broken Pokemon. Keep in mind things like Mega Mence and Mega Mom were quick ban "targets".
Darm isn't as blatantly broken as previous quick Bans. So people will naturally voice their opinions when it's quick banned, especially with this "anti-smogon" crap that's happening (even within this very thread lol).
Whether we care enough or not about the flack that could arise is about the only "issue". I think it's also important to remember this thread is a pretty small sample size compared to the entire player base.
 

Kalalokki

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Is there a PR issue with quickbanning Darm? Quickbans for Pokemon are standard procedure, especially in the early parts of a meta. I don't think we're gonna get much outrage beyond the usual offenders like He Who Must Not Be Named.
Not really, Dynamax had much more backlash on social media than any other OU ban of the last gen, suspect or not. It was treated with a lot more build-up and follow-up with the suspect and following ban, yet it was simply the scope of it that made it so controversial. Darm won't have that effect.
 
I'd rather just see darm go, I just thought I'd mention that as food for thought since there was post defending for and against quickbans, somebody mentioned the council being more cautious due to PR issues, and this is something to consider for this particular case.
Since these posts about poketubers haven't been deleted, I want to clarify that I was referring to the policy review forum on smogon, not to public relations. I don't think anyone on Smogon cares even a little how poketubers and their fanbases will react to anything that happens here.

I think it's also important to remember this thread is a pretty small sample size compared to the entire player base.
I don't like the 'small sample size' argument. The thread is public and anyone can post here. It's reasonable to assume that those who care enough about the outcome will have said something, or at the very least have seen this thread (viewed 50k times). If there is some large chunk of the playerbase that is opposed to a ban, the onus is on them to say something in this thread that was created specifically for that. That hasn't happened, tho, and assuming that there are more, differing opinions that just haven't been voiced, and that we should consider those potential opinions without knowing what they are or if they even exist, is silly.
 
I don't mean to start a shofu discussion, but definitely. I actually think he'd take it well (infact i think he said darm is gross himself), more concerned about the playerbase surrounding him since a lot of shofu fans will start an upset about his mascot being gone and the fact they can't use their diety's signature mon. I know we shouldn't care but I'd rather avoid a brain tumor from the upset than quickban and watch children complain about how smogon quickbanned something either because we're biased, or because we knew shofu's fanbase will mass grind for reqs (which we know majority won't get them anyway if they even try) to attempt to save it. Smogon quickbanning stuff isn't new but considering the mon in question I think we should consider the effect it has in this particular case, even if the outcome of it needing to go being tattoo'd on its forehead. Be different if this was for say-vish because at least majority can agree on vish being toxic and vish won't have any cult followings tied to it to piss off.

I'd rather just see darm go, I just thought I'd mention that as food for thought since there was post defending for and against quickbans, somebody mentioned the council being more cautious due to PR issues, and this is something to consider for this particular case.
As much as I understand where you're coming from... there's already a super-majority forming almost on the level of DMax. We would only be delaying the inevitable. Plus, Shofu himself would probably make a video about it regardless as well.
 

Finchinator

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Recently, the OU Council has noticed an uptick in usage and effectiveness of Dugtrio in the metagame. The three-headed mole is back to its normal trapping antics. This generation Dugtrio is best off with a Choice Band equipped, which allows it to pick off Fairy types like Clefable and Sylveon, who tend to run specially defensive variants, if used in a timely fashion while still making quick work of normal targets such as Toxapex and Tyranitar. As the young SS metagame has evolved over the last few months, Dugtrio has become a top 10 Pokemon in the tier, seeing lots of usage due to its devastating trapping capabilities. The OU Council would like to open discussion up to the public in this thread about potentially taking tiering action on the topics of Dugtrio or Arena Trap.

Please bring up anything that you feel might add to this discussion, but try to make sure your posts have substance to them. For any questions or concerns, feel free to contact us via PM. Happy posting!
 
Action should be taken on Arena Trap, not Dugtrio alone. For the Gen 5 metagame, the council initially put up Dugtrio for a vote, leading to a ban on it, and then players started using Diglett after Dugtrio was banned, which resulted in the ban on Dugtrio becoming a ban on Arena Trap because the ability itself is uncompetitive.

Arena Trap can directly be compared to Shadow Tag, as both essentially do the same thing, only with Arena Trap not trapping Flying-type Pokemon and Pokemon with Levitate or Neutralizing Gas. Shadow Tag is banned for being uncompetitive because it prevents switching, a fundamental aspect of playing Pokemon, and that not only constrains teambuilding but also reduces the importance of skill because of how restrictive it is to fight against trapping abilities, which can guarantee the revenging of any significantly weakened Pokemon in the case of Arena Trap or cripple walls completely while setting up in the case of Shadow Tag. Although Dugtrio's targets are not the same as Gothitelle's, Arena Trap should also be banned because it is also uncompetitive, although to a lesser degree that is still detrimental to healthy metagame development. Arena Trap, along with Shadow Tag and Moody, are three of the most cancerous abilities to ever be made, and they should have no place in OU. If Arena Trap were to be quickbanned as Shadow Tag and Moody were, that'd be great news.
 

Mannat

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When people are resorting to Quick Attack Sylveon and Shed Shell punk rocker solely because of Arena Trap Dug, you know there's an issue. There's really no point in delaying this process any more by arguing over semantics, we've gone over this before and everyone much knows what needs to be done at this point.
 

Yung Dramps

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It's 1 AM and I don't wanna sound like a broken record so Imma keep this brief

There is really no fundamental difference between Arena Trap and Shadow Tag. Yes AT has different mons that are immune to it, but it's honestly not even that substantial since those Pokemon beat its users anyway (Flying types, levitators, etc.). If we're so intent on preserving the ability and banning just Duggy then at that point we might as well suspect ST Gothita or w/e, no different than trying to keep Diglett or Trapinch around.
 
Dugtrio, but more specifically Arena Trap, is pretty insane, whichever way you choose to look at it. From being able to trap and completely remove counterplay to certain mons, to also causing a significant teambuilding strain, Arena Trap's impact on the current metagame cannot be understated.

Everyone is not new to Arena Trap but I think that it is especially evident of how unhealthy, but also broken it is in this gen. This is particularly important in the already small pool of viable mons this generation has to offer: Dugtrio is able to trap and effectively kill the likes of Toxapex, Sylveon and Clefable, which are notably some of the most common walls in SS OU. This often times leads to a much easier way for the Dugtrio player to formulate a path to victory. Despite its poor bulk, there are plenty of methods to get Duggy in safely, including U-Turn, Eject Button, Eject Pack, etc...

To add on to this, I want to bring up the "trapping is uncompetitive" argument. I know this is a pretty controversial point, but in such a narrow meta of size, trapping is worse than ever. It decreases the competitive skill cap by a remarkable size and is just not something good in the long run.

Teambuilding wise, it is equally as much of an issue. As mentioned, checks such as Toxapex, Clef, and Sylveon are all susceptible to being trapped, no matter what you do. Even if you make them more physically defensive variants to take Dugtrio EQs, then you are basically trading it at the cost to check Specially equipped mons, reliably, which defeats the purpose of the reason you are using them in the first place. On the offensive, mons such as Toxtricity or Obstagoon don't have as high usage rates, which can be reasoned because of Dugtrio's presence, though this isn't as huge of an issue as the eliminating-checks merit I presented.

If you want more proof, it being able to simply trap and eliminate 4 of the Top 15 mons in Usage Stats is an indication of my points stated above:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Clefable | 61 | 67.78% | 52.46% |
| 2 | Dragapult | 49 | 54.44% | 48.98% |
| 3 | Corviknight | 48 | 53.33% | 45.83% |
| 4 | Mandibuzz | 33 | 36.67% | 42.42% |
| 5 | Seismitoad | 31 | 34.44% | 35.48% |
| 6 | Rotom-Heat | 30 | 33.33% | 53.33% |
| 7 | Hydreigon | 26 | 28.89% | 46.15% |
| 8 | Kommo-o | 25 | 27.78% | 52.00% |
| 9 | Excadrill | 24 | 26.67% | 58.33% |
| 10 | Dugtrio | 22 | 24.44% | 54.55% |
| 11 | Ferrothorn | 15 | 16.67% | 60.00% |
| 12 | Toxapex | 14 | 15.56% | 57.14% |
| 13 | Sylveon | 13 | 14.44% | 38.46% |

| 14 | Aegislash | 12 | 13.33% | 50.00% |
| 15 | Gengar | 10 | 11.11% | 50.00% |


I believe that the removal of Dugtrio/Arena Trap in specific, will be only better for SS OU as a whole.
 
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Finchinator

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In my eyes, banning Arena Trap is the best solution. The input of the community and other council members will go a long way towards deciding a potential suspect, but my personal opinion is that we should handle this the same way we have in recent generations.

Dugtrio is eliminating Pokemon that are necessary forms of defensive counterplay against common Dugtrio teammates as per usual. This has been problematic in previous generations and it is no different here; we just are witnessing different targets and different beneficiaries of this entire dynamic this time around with Dugtrio running CB and trying to eliminate Fairy types as well as Toxapex, Tyranitar, Excadrill, etc. instead of Focus Sash and trying to get rid of Chansey or Heatran, which do not currently exist.

As for Arena Trap vs Dugtrio, we already handled a similar case in banning Shadow Tag instead of Gothitelle or the Gothitelle evolution line, so that's some precedent to begin with. Couple that with even more precedent from previous generations with Arena Trap specifically and I think that you can find plenty of justification to ban Arena Trap in order to handle the entire problem instead of leaving room for future troubles. With this said, I actually am not too fond of this being the only line of logic we subscribe to. Precedent is great as a piece of evidence, but it should never be the lone argument made. You need actual justification grounded in the current metagame. Moreover, I believe that Arena Trap eliminating the ability to switch out a number of prominent Pokemon proves to be very restricting and uncompetitive. This is shown specifically on Dugtrio, as I outline on the above paragraph. I am aware that this is the same line-of-logic used to justify the previous bans of it, which ties back into the precedent, but it is worth framing things in the context of our metagame instead of blindly applying precedent.
 
Please, not this again.
Arena Trap, get rid of it, shouldn't have been "unbanned" in the first place, and we're seeing exactly why. Just ban the ability, it's inherently noncompetitive.
I'm willing to bet this will be the overwhelming consensus. We tried banning Duggy last gen, and it was just a waste of a suspect test because we ultimately made the right decision in removing the ability. We already know the outcome of banning the Pokemon over the ability.
 

EviGaro

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There isn't really an argument for Arena Trap over Dugtrio at the moment tbh.

With Shadow Tag, you could argue that two mons at least were problematic in Gothitelle and Wobbuffet. You could also argue that Gothorita has more than enough to function similarly through both bulky setup on w/e it wants or pure pp stalling. You can't really argue that Trapinch and Diglett are able to do anything similar to what Dugtrio when one isn't bulkier but ginormously slower and the other is way too weak to be reliable in a way that would be constricting for the tier. So I don't really think the precedent holds up there, necessarily.
 
Everyone wants arena trap banned why would you suspect dugtrio only, trapping is deemed uncompetitive therefore we should (quick)ban all trapping abilities. Moreover in autumn/summer we are going to get heatran and other trapping targets (there are already plenty of them when sylveon is using quick attack for fuck’s sake) and wasting EVEN MORE TIME in the future for a new suspect when smogon is terribly slow at doing them, even when we’ll surely need to suspect at least some stuff coming from the autumn DLC, is just dumb.

tl;dr no reason to ban dugtrio, trap arena is the problem, quickban it if possible, suspect is also fine.
 
I don't really see why we should ban Dugtrio over Arena Trap.

There's really no point, and with its extremely uncompetitive nature and extreme centralization, I think this should be banned as soon as possible because it has been this way every generation since it got unbanned and it has been banned for the same reasons that were mentioned. Usually you're not ever going to use Diglett or Trapinch unless you want to double trap something to confirm something they trap will die, and most of the time you can't really do anything about it. If people are going to be using Diglett because of its trapping abilities then it's clear that the ability itself is the issue and not Dugtrio. There's no reason to ban Dugtrio over Arena Trap and honestly we shouldn't keep this any further, I believe this should be quickbanned for this.
 
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In my eyes, banning Arena Trap is the best solution. (Proceeds to talk about ban arguments that apply to dugtrio specifically)
Dugtrio, but more specifically Arena Trap, is pretty insane, whichever way you choose to look at it. From being able to trap and completely remove counterplay to certain mons, to also causing a significant teambuilding strain, Arena Trap's impact on the current metagame cannot be understated.

(Proceeds to talk about pokemon only dugtrio specifically can trap)
It's 1 AM and I don't wanna sound like a broken record so Imma keep this brief

There is really no fundamental difference between Arena Trap and Shadow Tag. Yes AT has different mons that are immune to it, but it's honestly not even that substantial since those Pokemon beat its users anyway (Flying types, levitators, etc.). If we're so intent on preserving the ability and banning just Duggy then at that point we might as well suspect ST Gothita or w/e, no different than trying to keep Diglett or Trapinch around.
Its not the same because we're not going out of our way to preserve a single pokemon by doing multiple suspects. In shadow tags case ud need to ban gothitelle, wobuffet AND gothorita to preserva gothita. In arena traps case we'd only need to ban dugtrio


I really dislike the argument "all trapping is uncompetitive, even if they dont trap as much as dugtrio" because in that case it should be consistent and should apply to all forms of trapping, including a legacy ability and move even though they didnt trap much

So which is it? Is all trapping is uncompetitive we cant even bear the thought of diglett trapping excadrill+ttar or is trapping okay as long as its a few threats?

Also Id really love to see any ban argument for arena trap that mentions diglett and trapinch because all the posts so far have been only mentioning dugtrio

Lastly, "lets not waste time, we already know how it works" is NOT a ban or anti ban argument so if thats your strongest argument please stfu if u cant properly add to the discussion

Edit: removed rant abt magnet pull as it is irrelevant
 
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Please, not this again.
Arena Trap, get rid of it, shouldn't have been "unbanned" in the first place, and we're seeing exactly why. Just ban the ability, it's inherently noncompetitive.
I'm willing to bet this will be the overwhelming consensus. We tried banning Duggy last gen, and it was just a waste of a suspect test because we ultimately made the right decision in removing the ability. We already know the outcome of banning the Pokemon over the ability.
A big reason of why people chose to vote no ban is because of wrong timing of suspect test + people didnt realize dugtrios full potential (zard y + dug and other offensive cores was realized post dugtrio suspect. And new sets were discovered like screech + groundium z that enabled it to trap clef and chansey)

The council decided to vote against DUGTRIO of all things when the community was clearly complaining about phermosa, mega metagross, kartana, greninja and whatever broken garbage was around early gen
 
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Jordy

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The reason people constantly mention Dugtrio is because it is the unarguably superior Arena Trap user to either Trapinch or Diglett. However, that does not mean that Diglett and Trapinch aren't capable of doing the generally same thing with Arena Trap. Admittedly, they are much less competent and cannot target as wide of an audience as Dugtrio, but this is where it becomes rather muddy and really comes down to personal preference and the way you'd like Smogon to tier, which, surprise, people have varying views on.

Many people have argued that, even if Trapinch and Diglett can't trap specially defensive Fairy-types like Dugtrio can for example, the ability to trap and remove Pokemon such as Tyranitar and Excadrill, is still uncompetitive as it takes control out of the players hands. On the contrary, people have argued it is not as big of an issue because of the much smaller pool of Pokemon that they can trap. Both of these arguments are perfectly valid.

I would personally like to see Arena Trap get suspect tested as a whole for reasons that have been mentioned in this post and by various users before me.

By the way, please don't bring Magnet Pull into the conversation because it's not part of the metagame and will only derail the thread.
 
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