Oh, right my bad. Thanks for the correction.
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
One problem with comparing DP to GSC and RBY is the amount of options available at the time each game was created.
I mean, it's fair to criticize the fourth generation games for such a flaw when it wasn't there to the same degree in the third generation, even though it was also present in the first and second. It's one of those "they really ought to have fixed it by now" type of things. By the time Gen IV rolled around, there were almost twice as many Pokémon available as in Gen II, and that also goes for the number of families of the uncommon types. The first two generations were held back by a lack of options, which really wasn't the case in Gen IV. So DP having poor distribution of a Pokémon type is a worse case of planning than when it happened in GS.
Or put another way: We give Gen I's lack of Ghost types a pass because there was only one Ghost-type family back then. Gen IV had 13 non-Legendary Fire-type families available (excluding Castform-Fire), which makes it very baffling that only two were available, one of which was a starter.
I mean, it's fair to criticize the fourth generation games for such a flaw when it wasn't there to the same degree in the third generation, even though it was also present in the first and second. It's one of those "they really ought to have fixed it by now" type of things. By the time Gen IV rolled around, there were almost twice as many Pokémon available as in Gen II, and that also goes for the number of families of the uncommon types. The first two generations were held back by a lack of options, which really wasn't the case in Gen IV. So DP having poor distribution of a Pokémon type is a worse case of planning than when it happened in GS.
Or put another way: We give Gen I's lack of Ghost types a pass because there was only one Ghost-type family back then. Gen IV had 13 non-Legendary Fire-type families available (excluding Castform-Fire), which makes it very baffling that only two were available, one of which was a starter.
The same could be said for RS when compared to GS/RBY when it comes to Ice types. There were only 3 Ice types lines in Hoenn, all of which were from Generation 3. Through your logic, there is less of an excuse because of adding new options, they should have added previous Ice lines in order to create more options for the play throughs and for a balance of types. Also, that's 7 lines actually, because 4 of those are starters, and with the Ponyta line, that's 6.
Anyway, the main point was that me and Celever were trying to establish is that its misplaced to criticize DP on poor type balance when other games of the series have done the error as well. I'm not saying the lack of Fire types was a good thing. I find only one option of a Dark Type in GS considerably worse than the lack of Fire types because the Dark type was newly introduced, yet the majority of Dark types could not be obtained until Post game.
A potential reason why Sinnoh's lack of Fire types as well as Hoenn's lack of Ice type might have something do with regions they were based off of. Hokkiado, which the Sinnoh region is based on, has short, cool summers, while having Icy, cold winters, hence the lack of a fire types in a cold climate. In contrast, Kyushu is a subtropical environment known for its Volcanoes, with create mud baths as well as super hot springs that produce organisms that can survive in extreme temperatures, explaining the lack of Ice types.
Maybe the reason GF was okay with the lack of Fire types is because the previous games never got criticized for this imbalance, and DP was their wake up call to have a better balance of types. Fortunately, the silver lining of "Lack of Fire types" fiasco is that GF has been trying to prevent that issue by drastically expanding the Pokedexes as of BW2 probably to permit a greater variety of types, as well as altering types of upcoming Pokemon as well, for example, Stunfisk was supposed to be Water/Electric, but they changed it to Ground/Electric for a better balance of types.
While comparing DP to GSC and RBY isn't perfect for the reason of limited options but was intended to prove a trend, the criticisms as far as Gen III are concerned are still valid. Gen III gave you the option of 3 Ice-Type families (excluding Castform-Hail), which considering one is the hard-to-obtain legendary Pokémon Regice is functionally the same as Fire-Type deals with in DP. It also still only gives players the option of 3 Dragon-Type Pokémon, with one unobtainable until after the 8th gym badge which is too late so is functionally 2 Dragon-Type Pokémon, and 3/4 depending on version Ghost-Type families but one is Shedinja which is so frustrating to use in-game it barely counts. It also provides 3 Steel-Type families total, which I don't think is much better than 2.
The overarching query I have with the argument is why Gen IV specifically is the tipping point. Why not Gen III, which faces the same type distribution issue with more types than DP does? Is it truly just that Fire-Type is a starter type. so players care more about it than Ice-, Dragon-, Ghost and Steel-type Pokémon? Because if a Gen III player happens to have one of those four as their favourite type, that's not much consolation. And it affects the player experience regardless, since besides Sidney those 4 types being so rare hurts the Elite Four and Champion experience.
RSE had more than enough Pokémon families to represent all of the types adequately, but there was a choice not to. GSC decided to lock Slugma, Murkrow, Misdreavus and Houndour in the post-game even though Dark-, Ghost- and Fire-Type Pokémon were underrepresented in the main game. They also chose to for some reason make Mankey version exclusive to limit Fighting-Type options even more in one version than the other, and to make Rock-Type Pokémon difficult to obtain besides Geodude, Sudowoodo and the unusable Shuckle.
The argument of context is flimsy to begin with, because designers at Game Freak have spoken about game directors giving them orders to create a Pokémon of "X/Y type". We didn't get the first Fire/Bug, Psychic/Bug and Ice/Bug Pokémon at the same time in SwSh by accident: the creature designers were told to make new type combinations for Bug-Type and the drafts that were liked were finalised into Pokémon (I read this in an interview but I'm about to sleep so I'm not digging it up now). I'm sure that the designers were also told to make several Dark-Type families in Gen III, making the type more common. The same thing could have been done for other types lacking in numbers.
Although even in the context of the Pokémon available to include in the games in Gens II and III, they made bad choices in terms of type distribution. Pokémon XD: Gales of Darkness' encounter table's 83 Pokémon families do type distribution better than or equal to RSE's 92 (discounting hard to obtain legendaries, 102 counting them). XD has 7 Ice-Type families, 4 Steel-type families, 3 Ghost-Type families, and 3 Dragon-Type families compared with RSE's 2, 3, 3/4 (but one is Shedinja), and 3 (but one is post 8th badge) respectively . And that's working within the constraints of not having trade evolutions available, removing Kingdra from the pool of potential Dragon-Type Pokémon and Gengar from the Ghost-Type one, including no gimmick Pokémon whatsoever, and not wanting to double down on key encounters in Colosseum removing Misdreavus from the Ghost-Type pool and Skarmory and Metagross from the Steel-Type one.
And this wasn't because they had the option to make all types as rare as each other and remove the "rare" quality of certain types. XD still has 9 Bug-Type, 11 Flying-Type, and 13 Normal-Type families for instance. They largely mirrored the traditional commonality of types, with the main exceptions being the over-representation of Fire-Type and under-representation of Water-Type families with 8 of each.
If XD: Gales of Darkness could do it right in the same generation as RSE, then the number of Pokémon available to Game Freak isn't an excuse. They were just bad at balancing type distribution until Gen V, where they upped their game to adequate in BW before circumventing the issue entirely by throwing in as many Pokémon as possible into future games.
It's not a Gen IV exclusive issue, and it's clear that that's the case. Game Freak has been bad at it all along.
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I think the egregious thing about Fire-types in DP is probably because it's a starter type, as you say. Grass, Fire, and Water are like the quintessential Pokémon types, as represented by the starters. It's a trio of types you'll likely want to put on your team anyway. So when your choice of starter can leave you with only one option to fill that role (and it's not a particularly strong or exciting option either), you're going to notice it. It's less noticeable when a tropical region lacks Ice-types, or when Ghost-types stay rare and elusive in game when they've always been rare and elusive up to that point anyway. With Fire lacking in options, it really feels like something was supposed to be there, but is missing. Something that used to work acceptably didn't anymore.
So yeah, Fire types missing isn't necessarily a bigger screw-up than they've made before, but it's a way more noticeable one to the player. Which arguably means it should have been more noticeable to playtesters too, and that they've really should have done something about it, but I suspect the Game Freak devs have never really cared much about the opinions of playtesters.
So yeah, Fire types missing isn't necessarily a bigger screw-up than they've made before, but it's a way more noticeable one to the player. Which arguably means it should have been more noticeable to playtesters too, and that they've really should have done something about it, but I suspect the Game Freak devs have never really cared much about the opinions of playtesters.
Also, all of the examples from previous generations (excluding ones forced by actual amount of that type, like ghost) are at least 2-3 families of the type available- DP has a single Fire-type outside of the starter. That leaves you with a singular option for Fire-types if you don’t run the chimp. Much more extreme imo
And even worse: Chimchar is your only option if you want a team consisting fully of new mons, which is something many players, including myself, want on at least their first playthrough.
don't have anything meaningful to add about Fire-type discussion but I wanted to say i never noticed it bc i picked Talent, Acclaim, Beauty, Success aka Chimcallah aka the greatest starter ever 90% of the time
Through that logic, Gold and Silver are also extreme because Umbreon is the only option for a Dark type, and this is really extreme because Dark was a new type in Gold and Silver and they were promoting it.
Yes. That is indeed a fairly common take.
There are actually 4 dragon types in RSE: Altaria, Flygon, Kingdra and Salamence.
One thing I want to point out about DP is the fact that Tangela and Tropius (if i remember correctly) are the only Pokemon unavailable between the two versions- which makes absolutely no sense since Tangrowth was introduced in DP (and all other DP evolutions can be obtained via the Poké Radar.)
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• Ho-Oh is the better leagendary out of Tower Duo, as I feel Lugia doesn’t have the same depth of lore and thought behind its creation.
• I think Pokémon Originals was one of the better written generations unlike Hoenn and Unova Saga.
• Sinnoh has best mythicals Pokémon, not just legendaries, but mythicals as well who never seem to recieve same amount of acknowldgement.
• I think inanimate objects make for really good Pokémon.
• I think Pokémon Originals was one of the better written generations unlike Hoenn and Unova Saga.
• Sinnoh has best mythicals Pokémon, not just legendaries, but mythicals as well who never seem to recieve same amount of acknowldgement.
• I think inanimate objects make for really good Pokémon.
Hard agree with these two. I appreciate how almost (if not every) Sinnoh mythical has some sort of event tied to it, rather than just recieving it through Mystery Gift.
I also never understood the hate for "inanimate object" Pokémon, especially when they're like Klefki or Vanilluxe (the two most hated), which have a more creative design than most non-object Pokemon.
I don’t think most of them are even c
-- I don’t know dude; typically bug types learn sticky webs who are one of the weakest types, and most sticky webs users aren’t even that good. Giving them some support move may not have been as terrible as it seems, but I don’t play VGC or Doubles, so.
-- Weirdly enough, Zeraora was sitting in UU tier despite sporting better attack and speed than, say a Garchomp, who’s one of the better Pokémon in Generation 7. By this comparision what I’m trying to say is that attack and speed stats aren’t always everything, having some bulk and good amount of coverage moves, and especially versatility makes a Pokémon good, or perhaps broken.
Ho-oh definitely gets more focus since the Legendary Beasts are located the Burned tower and are explicitly related to Ho-oh. Ho-oh's role in the towers is also focused on the anime.
Do you mean the Pokemon: Indigo League or Pokemon Origins?
I definitely agree. I posted explanation on why I think the Mythical Pokemon are the best in Sinnoh here. Sinnoh may have slow tiles, slow saving, and lack of fire types, but Sinnoh's world building is one of the best in the game.
I agree that there are some good designs for inamintate objects as well as bad designs. I love Vanniluxe, Polteageist, and Chandelure, but I'm not a fan of Garbodor, Electrode, and Klink.
This implies that Sinnoh has the best legendaries, and I would consider even that a scorching take.
Honestly i can kinda get behind most of Sinnoh's legendaries being "good" by having in-game lore for them. Especially in the case of the mythicals, which, barring Manaphy, have in-game locations programmed in for them. They don't exist just to have more cool promotional material.
Okay, they do, but that's because their locations were never given out legitimately.
After Gen 4, quite a few legendaries just... exist, with no good locations for them (and if they have locations, a lot of them are mutually exclusive depending on your version, which is kinda lame).
Looking at Mythicals specifically:
Mew : no specific location until Gen 3, where it got the Faraway Island event.
Celebi: resides in Ilex Forest; event used in Japanese Crystal and VC Crystal.
Jirachi: no location
Deoxys: Birth Island
Manaphy: no location (unless it's supposed to be from the region the Ranger games take place in)
Darkrai: New Moon Isle, a counterpart to Cresselia's island
Shaymin: Flower Paradise
Arceus: Hall of Origin
Victini: Liberty Garden
Keldeo: no location I'm aware of, but it has ties to the other Swords of Justice
Meloetta: no location
Genesect: no location, but apparently created by Team Plasma
Diancie: no location, but is a developed form of Carbink and may have ties to the Anistar City sundial
Hoopa: No location, but is the source of the rings used to find other legendaries in ORAS
Volcanion: no location
Magearna: no location, and no apparent ties to Alola
Marshadow: no location, but it has a Z-move
Zeraora: no location
While i don't consider most of the Gen 4 legendaries to be particular favorites, they at least are incorporated into the worldbuilding and have can be referenced without pulling the player out of immersion.
Thinking about it now, I'm actually inclined to agree that Sinnoh has great legendaries. The two main trios (creation and lake) both have plot relevance, and are linked together through Arceus. That's seven legendary/mythical Pokemon all linked together, with six of them being integral to the plot.
Compare this to other regions with lots of legendaries, like Hoenn and Unova. Only three legendaries are relevant in Hoenn (the weather trio) with its secondary trio (the golems) being completely unrelated. Unova has three trios (tao, musketeer, genie) but again none of them are related to each other, and only the tao trio actually matters to the plot (unless Cobalion and Virizion showing up in B2W2 to see what's poppin' is indeed important, but even then, they're not related to the tao trio).
Ho-Oh having more focus is literally because Lugia WAS last minute just to support the anime, as shown in the recent dumps for GSC betas.
The irony is Lugia has more a presence in the anime and spinoffs overall
Ho-Oh has;
Episode 1 being an unknown, and Gen 3 ep of Ash getting possessed by a shadow king where it STILL didn't do much. Finally as of a few years ago, a role in a movie lauded for many things
For Spinoffs, Mystery Dungeon it's relevant to the Legendary Cat trio as an elusive mythical, connecting it to them even more
Colo it was slapped in the end. Didn't really have a point
Lugia meanwhile;
Immediately a movie where it had a huge presence. It was connected to the Legendary Bird Trio as well
Anime it had 3 episodes, also noting how it had a baby, and confirming the second movie is canon to the series as well
Spinoffs, similarly in Mystery Dungeon it's again connected to the Legendary Bird Trio, causing a typhoon that can only be quelled by them
XD I don't need to mention
Also more ironically, there's distribution events more for Lugia
The irony is Lugia has more a presence in the anime and spinoffs overall
Ho-Oh has;
Episode 1 being an unknown, and Gen 3 ep of Ash getting possessed by a shadow king where it STILL didn't do much. Finally as of a few years ago, a role in a movie lauded for many things
For Spinoffs, Mystery Dungeon it's relevant to the Legendary Cat trio as an elusive mythical, connecting it to them even more
Colo it was slapped in the end. Didn't really have a point
Lugia meanwhile;
Immediately a movie where it had a huge presence. It was connected to the Legendary Bird Trio as well
Anime it had 3 episodes, also noting how it had a baby, and confirming the second movie is canon to the series as well
Spinoffs, similarly in Mystery Dungeon it's again connected to the Legendary Bird Trio, causing a typhoon that can only be quelled by them
XD I don't need to mention
Also more ironically, there's distribution events more for Lugia
I just played around in Tiermaker, ranking the regions by legendaries only (excluding mythicals for now). I put Sinnoh alone at the bottom.
- Lake trio: I appreciate them more now than I did back then (there are some more subtle ways they represent their themes that I missed before), but three similar-looking pure Psychic-types is kind of boring, and their designs don't do a lot to help.
- Dragons: Kind of over-designed but also just... weird-looking? Especially a certain one of them with a very phallic head. I'm also not a fan of their "literally control time/space" lore. I prefer the symbolism of gen 2/5 box legends or the powers of gen 3/6 box legends over ones that are this in-your-face about being full-on god-like beings.
- Heatran: It's cool but kind of what's the point of it?
- Regigigas: Made the Regis a little more interesting, but not enough.
- Cresselia: It's cool.
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Mystery Dungeon says otherwise
- Manaphy: Technically just the ocean. Diamond says they're typically born on the ocean floor though as we've seen in the Pokemon Ranger games they sometimes wash ashore beaches.
- Keldeo: Has two actually. The Moor of Icirrus is where Keldeo is from, in the past there was a forest fire that greatly injured and misplaced many Pokemon, Keldeo being one of them. The Swords of Justice helped saved as many Pokemon as they could from the fire and afterwards adopted and began training Keldeo. This leads to the second location, the Pledge Grove. In BW taking Keldeo to Moor of Icirrus along with the other Swords of Justice will teach it the Secret Sword move. In B2W2 just taking Keldeo alone to Pledge Grove will have it learn Secret Sword on its own.
- Genesect: It was created at the P2 Laboratory.
- Diancie: I always thought that oddly empty room in Reflection Cave where you find the Alakazamite might have intended to be for Diancie though the Anistar Sundial is possibly also a fitting location.
- Hoopa: The Chamber of Emptiness feels like it has a connection with Hoopa, like an old location where it hid the stuff it took.
- Volcanion: This one is a bit of a stretch, though I always felt maybe one of the locked doors of the Kalos Power Plant would be where Volcanion was. The Kalos Power Plant used various methods to generate power, and with Volcanion's theme being its steam power feels like it would fit in.
1) I'm just tired of seeing Webs teams in OU ladder. Its ridiculously sweaty and gets old really fast.
2) That's just a sign of power creep (one of the reasons I disliked Gen 5). Zera also got Play Rough now and with Dexit,its just annoying to play against.
Hey I appreciate this!
I honestly didn't remember the Moor of Icirrus and I haven't played BW2 so I blame that for Keldeo knowledge. Probably the same reason I didn't know about Genesect (but that makes sense). I ought to play through X again because I do not remember details about its locations. I've heard that theory about Volcanion before, though.