Metagame Linked

[Cuddly]

It’s fine if HO is dominant, but the current situation makes for a very unhealthy meta. Stacking two powerful STAB moves, using stuff like Laser Focus or a move that drops the opponent’s defenses, Assurance as the second move in a link, combos like Close Combat + Lash Out, all of those are good offensive strategies that don’t see nearly as much play as they should because it’s less risky and more rewarding to spam setup moves. If hyper offense were dominant but had more variety than “hee hoo Magearna + Volcarona + Dragapult”, I’d be fine with that.



There’s no increased chance of hax once screens are up. Laser Focus guarantees a crit for the turn it’s used plus the turn after it’s used, so if it’s the first move in a link you get two guaranteed crits. That might be the cause of some of your crit problems. As for flinches, Jirachi is just stupid like that.

The crits aren’t from Laser Focus when I was laddering and other hax ensued.

Also tbh Laser Focus sounds like a bad strategy and crit based strategies in general are just bad.
Aside from Wicked Blow and Surge Strikes, you have to make some sacrifices, namely in offenses ironically, just to have their highest bounds of damage be your lowest as well.
Sure you can Laser Focus a move, but why do that when you can have 2 similar BP moves or use Sword Dance/Nasty Plot? Especially when those 2 attacking moves and SD/NP strategies can crit too.

Like Wicked Blow, I see more like more powerful Chip Away without a chance to crit than a crunch that always crits instead dropping defense, which is why that’s good and how I think about crit based sets in general.

 

[Ztest]

Hello council members,
Why is unburden hawlucha still allowed? I am hoping it's just not coded in yet because this mon is very unbalanced for obvious reasons.

Urshifu single strike is also something the council should look at, it is already bordeline broken in OU and will likely be banned there soon. Two moves in this meta makes it extremely powerful and splashable, essentially nothing can live the combination of life orb wicked+cc more than once.

Bold max def Weezing-galar (the only one true counter mon and rarely used in this meta) still takes 35 on a double min roll and 42 on double max, guaranteeing the 3HKO on even it's best switch in. Max def bold clefable takes 57 on a double min roll, guaranteeing 2HKOs every time.
The only true non-revenge counter play you can employ right now is red card/colbur berry which is ridiculous since either one doesn't guarantee that urshifu won't simply switch out and claim a kill later.

Interestingly you can even get away with running things like adamant nature or protective pads to get past common punishments like rocky helmet or 150 def magearna. Combinations like cc+lash out and wicked+assurance are also less viable but extremely strong nonetheless.

In summation, if you play any urshifu well it can easily net you at least 2-3 kills per game with little effort, I urge you try it out before it gets the hammer.

Thanks

 

[Cuddly]

Hello council members,
Why is unburden hawlucha still allowed? I am hoping it's just not coded in yet because this mon is very unbalanced for obvious reasons.

Urshifu single strike is also something the council should look at, it is already bordeline broken in OU and will likely be banned there soon. Two moves in this meta makes it extremely powerful and splashable, essentially nothing can live the combination of life orb wicked+cc more than once.

Bold max def Weezing-galar (the only one true counter mon and rarely used in this meta) still takes 35 on a double min roll and 42 on double max, guaranteeing the 3HKO on even it's best switch in. Max def bold clefable takes 57 on a double min roll, guaranteeing 2HKOs every time.
The only true non-revenge counter play you can employ right now is red card/colbur berry which is ridiculous since either one doesn't guarantee that urshifu won't simply switch out and claim a kill later.

Interestingly you can even get away with running things like adamant nature or protective pads to get past common punishments like rocky helmet or 150 def magearna. Combinations like cc+lash out and wicked+assurance are also less viable but extremely strong nonetheless.

In summation, if you play any urshifu well it can easily net you at least 2-3 kills per game with little effort, I urge you try it out before it gets the hammer.

Thanks

I’m not part of the council, but Unburden is banned, just that Showdown hasn’t implemented those bans yet. See here.

Bans

• Abilities:
  • Unburden, Surge Surfer, Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, Slush Rush. (info)

It just takes a bit for bans to be implemented.

Also Urshifu isn’t as great here as it is in OU unfortunately.
The Linking of moves have made the Meta extremely Hyper Offensive. If it isn’t Fast, doesn’t have Priority, doesn’t have amazing set up, or setting up hazards, it’s likely to be bad.
Urshifu thankfully does have priority, but it’s Sucker Punch and its only boosting move is Bulk Up. Close Combat+Lash Out is pretty good against hazard setters like Shuckle and Ferrothorn, as well as people who think walls are going to work in this meta.
The real big threat is Magearna with Shift Gear+Calm Mind+Stored Power beating every non-Dark type, with coverage of your choice. Rarely will anything stop Magearna after a boost or 2, which it can easily do thanks to its typing and linked Reflect+Light Screen support (as long as the opponent doesn’t crit or is at +6)

 

[Ztest]

I’m not part of the council, but Unburden is banned, just that Showdown hasn’t implemented those bans yet. See here.

It just takes a bit for bans to be implemented.

Also Urshifu isn’t as great here as it is in OU unfortunately.
The Linking of moves have made the Meta extremely Hyper Offensive. If it isn’t Fast, doesn’t have Priority, doesn’t have amazing set up, or setting up hazards, it’s likely to be bad.
Urshifu thankfully does have priority, but it’s Sucker Punch and its only boosting move is Bulk Up. Close Combat+Lash Out is pretty good against hazard setters like Shuckle and Ferrothorn, as well as people who think walls are going to work in this meta.
The real big threat is Magearna with Shift Gear+Calm Mind+Stored Power beating every non-Dark type, with coverage of your choice. Rarely will anything stop Magearna after a boost or 2, which it can easily do thanks to its typing and linked Reflect+Light Screen support (as long as the opponent doesn’t crit or is at +6)

How is urshifu not as good as it is OU? I am arguing that it more than outshines it's performance in OU to the point of being broken. You are not really giving examples of specific counter play that checks it to the point of being balanced. It is the perfect hyper offensive mon and it fits three of the four criteria you established perfectly.

1- It has amazing speed, it is the ninth fastest mon in the OU tier and it destroys 6 of the top 8 with sucker punch. The only two OU mons that actually can speed check urshifu safely (not needing to be full health) is Hydreigon and Hawlucha, which the latter is banned.

2- Priority in the form of sucker punch is the best thing a strong dark type could wish for, and I feel you are downplaying how good it is in practice. Sucker punch picks off all the relevant kills it needs and turns urshifu from a defenseless bear like Pangoro into a powerhouse, especially at +1 life orb.

3 - Boosting in the form of bulk up is all this mon needs, and has consistently proven to be one of the best set up options. Pre DLC Conkeldurr and post Cinderace both utilize Bulk Up effectively, and prove that the speed tier of urshifu, being right in between them, is irrelevant. Support from things like sucker punch and drain punch means that revenging urshifu after +1 is extremely difficult.

You are mentioning Magearna as being the actual broken mon here. While I will admit the powerful potential it holds, it is simply not on the level urshifu is. The usage of two slots for set up mean that Magearna is limited on it's coverage, and lack of Z moves prevent it from doing any real resistance breaking. Here is a list of mons that beats/checks Magearna even after it set up calm mind+shift gear one time, a list you are not able to make for +1 urshifu.

Excadrill
Alolan Maro
Cinderace
Chansey
Eerie Impulse Magearna
Haze Toxapex
Roar Coballion
Volcarona
Rotom Heat
Whirlwind Snorlax
Jirachi
Skarmory
Ferrothorn


Notice one thing, they all die to urshifu. Urshifu+Mag is broken, and it's not because of Mag.

If anything Magearna is not as good as it is in OU, since the set is predictable. You are not able to run things like specs or av as effectively, part of what makes Magearna so good. Being able to 2HKO things like Alola Marowak with a specs Fleur Cannon on switch in makes it super dangerous in OU, as opposed to this meta where it can simply come in.

Not to be rude in any way since you make really good posts, but if you make claims like urshifu is not as good as it is in OU; it needs to be backed by a lot more analysis and counter play.

 

[Ivy]

Can confirm that the banlist is NOT YET up to date with the thread OP, just waiting on the next server restart or format hotpatch.
Urshifu is REALLY nice with speed control. It may be too fast for TR, but more conventional options like webs and tailwind help magnificently. A lot of people bring countermeasures against stat-boost spam, so having pure BP be the strength (with the Wicked Blow + Assurance or CC) gets quite overwhelming.

 

[Cuddly]

How is urshifu not as good as it is OU? I am arguing that it more than outshines it's performance in OU to the point of being broken. You are not really giving examples of specific counter play that checks it to the point of being balanced. It is the perfect hyper offensive mon and it fits three of the four criteria you established perfectly.

1- It has amazing speed, it is the ninth fastest mon in the OU tier and it destroys 6 of the top 8 with sucker punch. The only two OU mons that actually can speed check urshifu safely (not needing to be full health) is Hydreigon and Hawlucha, which the latter is banned.

2- Priority in the form of sucker punch is the best thing a strong dark type could wish for, and I feel you are downplaying how good it is in practice. Sucker punch picks off all the relevant kills it needs and turns urshifu from a defenseless bear like Pangoro into a powerhouse, especially at +1 life orb.

3 - Boosting in the form of bulk up is all this mon needs, and has consistently proven to be one of the best set up options. Pre DLC Conkeldurr and post Cinderace both utilize Bulk Up effectively, and prove that the speed tier of urshifu, being right in between them, is irrelevant. Support from things like sucker punch and drain punch means that revenging urshifu after +1 is extremely difficult.

You are mentioning Magearna as being the actual broken mon here. While I will admit the powerful potential it holds, it is simply not on the level urshifu is. The usage of two slots for set up mean that Magearna is limited on it's coverage, and lack of Z moves prevent it from doing any real resistance breaking. Here is a list of mons that beats/checks Magearna even after it set up calm mind+shift gear one time, a list you are not able to make for +1 urshifu.

Excadrill
Alolan Maro
Cinderace
Chansey
Eerie Impulse Magearna
Haze Toxapex
Roar Coballion
Volcarona
Rotom Heat
Whirlwind Snorlax
Jirachi
Skarmory
Ferrothorn


Notice one thing, they all die to urshifu. Urshifu+Mag is broken, and it's not because of Mag.

If anything Magearna is not as good as it is in OU, since the set is predictable. You are not able to run things like specs or av as effectively, part of what makes Magearna so good. Being able to 2HKO things like Alola Marowak with a specs Fleur Cannon on switch in makes it super dangerous in OU, as opposed to this meta where it can simply come in.

Not to be rude in any way since you make really good posts, but if you make claims like urshifu is not as good as it is in OU; it needs to be backed by a lot more analysis and counter play.

The biggest reason being the current meta.

Urshifu is an amazing wallbreaker and can rip apart the defensive cores in OU for balance teams.
Problem is that you won’t be finding much defensive cores in this meta, let alone OU staples.
Urshifu does have a good niche in stopping the supportive Pokemon in this meta though. Namely Mental Herb Shuckle and Screen Supporters. Preventing Shuckle from getting Webs up can prevent you from losing turn 1. And having a guaranteed crit move means that Screens can mostly be ignored.

Also about your list;
Excadrill (Requires Screens to not be up. Otherwise Magearna can boost again and Store Power. +2 248 SpA Magearna Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 339-399 (93.9 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO)
Alolan Maro (Has to have Stealth Rock removed or else it gets OHKO’d after Recoil, and even then if Reflect is up, Magearna has a better chance at surviving. +1 248 SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Marowak-Alola: 233-275 (72.1 - 85.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 24 Def Magearna through Reflect: 270-318 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Can be EV’d better to survive a hit too)
Cinderace (Requires HDBs and to be healthy the whole game to survive Stored Power, as well as screens to be down +1 248 SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 247-291 (82 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
Chansey (Only only is Chansey terrible Linked, but it’s just set up fodder for Magearna. Magearna will always survive 3 Seismic Tosses regardless of investment and item, and a second Shift Gear will be able to 2HKO Chansey if it plays offensively)
Eerie Impulse Magearna (All this does is waste Magearna’s PP. It will just boost its Speed, Atk, and SpD while it does nothing back)
Haze Toxapex (+1 248 SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 288-340 (94.7 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Roar Coballion (1 Time only check and it’s not even good. Even the specially bulkiest Cobalion are 2HKO’d
+1 248 SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cobalion: 173-204 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Volcarona (Has to hit a Fire Blast at +1 with ideal conditions. No Light Screen being up or Magearna wins again)
Rotom Heat (+1 248 SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 185-218 (61 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 174-206 (57.6 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
Whirlwind Snorlax (An actual reliable counter, requires you to use Snorlax as a phaser and all it does is phase Magearna out)
Jirachi (Magearna can speed tie Scarf Jirachi with just 232 Timid at +2 (honestly EVs could be optimized too since the defense investment was for CB Urshifu) and can set up again. Doesn’t even require Screens either.
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 97-115 (32.1 - 38%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO)
Skarmory (Ayy Lmao. Skarmory is just flat out garbage in Linked and it isn’t remotely a check. Good like if Rocks are up and that Magearna has Thunderbolt instead of Drain Kiss and Good luck if your Whirlwind blow it into any of the fast offensive threats on the opponent’s team)
Ferrothorn (At best can Gyro Ball or Leech Seed Magearna, assuming it doesn’t have Aura Sphere or if Screens are down)

A lot of those Pokemon at best force it off the field or Trade with it, but require the game to heavily be in their favor.
The checks mentioned can faultier based on a change to one coverage move as well and aren’t even good in this meta.
There is then the fact that Magearna can run Iron Defense+Calm Mind sets, be a Trick Room attacker or setter, a Screens setter with pivot moves, Trick user, All-Out Attacker, ect. and you really wouldn’t know it either, which can get a free turn with any of these sets.

And again, because Linked is so heavily HO by the nature of having conjoined moves, having no safe Switch-Ins is less valuable than having no revenge killers given how often teams make trades with Pokemon, which is a major flaw with Urshifu and pretty much a non-issue with Magearna.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Burning Jealousy has nice synergy with Swagger and Flatter, as you can raise the opponent's stats and then immediately burn them. I can't see it being impactful though, as the combo faces stiff competition from Will-O-Wisp's significantly better distribution, only costing one move slot instead of two, and not raising the opponent's stats. That said, Burning Jealousy does two advantages: it deals damage, and delivers burns 100% of the time as opposed to 85% of the time if paired with Flatter.

Pokemon who learn Burning Jealousy + Flatter who don't already learn Will-O-Wisp:

Grimmsnarl

Persian-Alola

Flatter is much better for this combo than Swagger. Not only is it more accurate, but it won't give the target +2 Attack, which negates the burn until they switch out. Additionally, Flatter's +1 boost to Special Attack is useless to most of the physical attackers you'd want to burn, though you do need to be wary of a special attacker switching in.

Pokemon who learn Burning Jealousy + Swagger who don't already learn Will-O-Wisp or Flatter:

Liepard

Skuntank

Zoroark

 

[Eli]

Hello, so priority given to moves by abilities (Prankster, Gale Wings, Triage) is bugged in Linked. For the first move in the link, its priority is added with the second move in the link; however, this is not the case for the second move of the link, which has the intended priority. The way it's meant to work is seen in the original post:

How does priority work?
Priority of a linked pair is equal to that of the lowest-priority move in the link. So if for example Roar and Crunch are in a link, you will use both Roar and Crunch at the -6 priority bracket. On the other hand, Fake Out and Mach Punch would possess a +1 priority. Note that move priority is calculated before the turn, so even if a move changes priority somehow, both moves are still used in succession.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8linked-1144619262
- In this replay, Comfey has Triage as its ability and linked Draining Kiss + Giga Drain. Draining Kiss, when used, has the priority of both moves added, meaning its priority is +6 (Triage gives +3 priority to healing moves) so it goes before Protect. Giga Drain doesnt have the priority of both since it's the second move in the link, so it's only +3, meaning Protect goes before it does.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8linked-1144622172
- In this replay, Lucario is Extreme Speed (+2 priority), which is unlinked. Lucario is used because it is outsped by Talonflame and Whimsicott so the bug can be demonstrated more easily. For turn 1 of Talonflame, Brave Bird is +2 priority since its gotten +1 from Brave Bird and another +1 from Roost, so it goes before Lucario's Extreme Speed. However, Roost is +0 after that, so Extreme Speed cuts in and goes before Roost.
- Talonflame is then switched out for Whimsicott to further prove the point. Whimsicott of course has Prankster, with its linked moves being Toxic + Cotton Guard, so Toxic is +2 priority and outspeeds Extreme Speed. Due to Cotton Guard being the second move of the link, its priority is only +1, so Extreme Speed moves before it.

so yeah priority is being a stupid!

 

[alephgalactus]

Hello, so priority given to moves by abilities (Prankster, Gale Wings, Triage) is bugged in Linked. For the first move in the link, its priority is added with the second move in the link; however, this is not the case for the second move of the link, which has the intended priority. The way it's meant to work is seen in the original post:



https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8linked-1144619262
- In this replay, Comfey has Triage as its ability and linked Draining Kiss + Giga Drain. Draining Kiss, when used, has the priority of both moves added, meaning its priority is +6 (Triage gives +3 priority to healing moves) so it goes before Protect. Giga Drain doesnt have the priority of both since it's the second move in the link, so it's only +3, meaning Protect goes before it does.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8linked-1144622172
- In this replay, Lucario is Extreme Speed (+2 priority), which is unlinked. Lucario is used because it is outsped by Talonflame and Whimsicott so the bug can be demonstrated more easily. For turn 1 of Talonflame, Brave Bird is +2 priority since its gotten +1 from Brave Bird and another +1 from Roost, so it goes before Lucario's Extreme Speed. However, Roost is +0 after that, so Extreme Speed cuts in and goes before Roost.
- Talonflame is then switched out for Whimsicott to further prove the point. Whimsicott of course has Prankster, with its linked moves being Toxic + Cotton Guard, so Toxic is +2 priority and outspeeds Extreme Speed. Due to Cotton Guard being the second move of the link, its priority is only +1, so Extreme Speed moves before it.

so yeah priority is being a stupid!

I should also note that I’ve seen Pokémon’s linked moves behave similarly to that in the case of speed ties. Probably something to do with priority/Speed being calculated on a per-move basis instead of a per-turn basis, but I don’t know much about how Showdown is coded so that’s just my guess.

EDIT: I now have evidence that this also applies to Speed-lowering moves when they are the first move in a link.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8linked-1144679923

 

[jroy]

fake out + volt switch zera didnt procc my slowbro's rocky helmet, is this a bug? or protective pads?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8linked-1144719656

 

[Tøp Tier]

fake out + volt switch zera didnt procc my slowbro's rocky helmet, is this a bug? or protective pads?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8linked-1144719656

I'm pretty sure Protective Pads, I've seen Rocky Helmet work plenty of times in this meta and it seems like the point of that Zeraora set is to keep flinch cycling without getting worn down so Protective Pads/Heavy Duty Boots seem like the best options for it.

 

[Cuddly]

So there is this weird interaction with Cursed Body
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8linked-1145017212
At turn 3, Ninetales procs the Cursed Body from Dragapult, but in the proceeding turn, Nasty Plot was the move to be disabled.
Unless I’m mistake, Heat Wave should have been the disabled move and not Nasty Plot.

Also Bisharp is amazing in this meta.

 

[jroy]

I'm pretty sure Protective Pads, I've seen Rocky Helmet work plenty of times in this meta and it seems like the point of that Zeraora set is to keep flinch cycling without getting worn down so Protective Pads/Heavy Duty Boots seem like the best options for it.

See that made sense to me, but the player also had a mienshao with fake out + u turn without protective pads. Maybe the build was just weird/bad but I'd think you'd want the pads on the Mon with two linked contact moves instead of one

 

[Showsni]

One interesting thing you can do is Destiny Bond every turn if it's a linked move. Normally it will start to fail if used in succession (like Protect), but since you have another move in between you can always have Destiny Bond up.

 

[lolgod3]

One interesting thing you can do is Destiny Bond every turn if it's a linked move. Normally it will start to fail if used in succession (like Protect), but since you have another move in between you can always have Destiny Bond up.

Ban It
also a random set to avoid one liner
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flatter
- Burning Jealousy
- Reflect
- Light Screen

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Ban It

Why? That's how Destiny Bond used to work.

 

[Synchronoise Umbreon]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8linked-1145638315
plz broken priory

 

[lolgod3]

Why? That's how Destiny Bond used to work.

forever destiny bond is annoying

 

[Hematite]

Why? That's how Destiny Bond used to work.

To be fair, while you used to be able to use Destiny Bond every turn like this, you were never able to use Destiny Bond and attack in the same turn. The point of the move is that it's a trade at best and a wasted turn at worst; in this case, it's a successful attack at best and a trade at worst. It's sort of like the way protection moves are banned from links because using them and an attack in the same turn undermines their intended limitations... but obviously to a much, much smaller extent.
That's not to say that it is broken as it is - another Pokémon, Mega Banette, is actively designed to exploit the potential for permanent Destiny Bond even while attacking, and it's far from overpowered in Banette's case. Guaranteed trades are a very powerful tool, but making the most of it still requires using only a single one of your moves, and... honestly, getting to use any two moves together is already a very powerful tool - usually one that makes a lasting impact even if you don't use the same move every single turn.
With that said, I would strongly suggest testing it and seeing if it's okay before declaring it inherently broken and saying to ban it on the spot! But just for total fairness, I do think this is a different enough case from the way Destiny Bond used to work that lolgod3 isn't necessarily off base in being concerned.

 

[Ztest]

https://pokepast.es/bda9f3d82c22f837
Hello,
Here is a cool semi trick room balance. I can make a longer post about it if you are interested. #1 on ladder so it's spicy. Make sure you actually look at the mons and the opponent’s mons bc the HO match up is determined in 1 or 2 crucial turns/doubles.
Thanks

 

[Sinister Squirrel]

I have had surprising success with a certain mon in this meta since ORAS, to the point where I am willing to say Dragalge might be a sleeper pick for dedicated trick room teams. I would say it has got worse over the years due to meta shifts (hello Magearna), and it may just be the surprise factor, but I would like to thank True Dragon for donating wins to my patron Devimon for around half a decade.

True Dragon (Dragalge) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Dragon Pulse
- Sludge Wave
- Flip Turn
- Scald/Thunderbolt

The only change I have made since ORAS is swapping out Choice Specs in Sun and Moon due to the mechanical changes (rip choice sweepers), and adding Flip Turn this gen. You could also run Sludge Bomb Sludge Wave linked and run Draco Meteor in another slot if you want to double down on the poison, but I had less success with that. The main reason why it has hardly changed is that coverage moves for damage are something of a non-entity, usually your Adaptability two hit nuke does more, and if it doesn't you should get out of there. The power of the Sludge Wave Dragon Pulse combo is ludicrous on anything that isn't a Steel Type or Tyranitar.

The order only matters where Substitute is concerned, but if you use Dragon Pulse first you can give Fairies false hope of survival.

Life Orb or Poison Barb occurs as a more do or die option, but Assault Vest combos surprisingly well with Dragalge's natural 123 special bulk, since you're invested in HP. With it, you can pick up kills on special attackers like Chandelure or Clanging Scales Kommo-o (at +1) even if Trick Room runs out. Funny story, Chandelure used life orb shadow ball flamethrower, sp. def drop with the first and crit with the second. I STILL LIVED.

Dragalge makes a good teammate with Alolan Marowak. I used Scrafty in USUM, but I am not sure if he's still good on Trick Room. Grimmsnarl crumbles before Dragalge, it's suprisingly solid and it is one speed point slower than Alowak, meaning under Trick Room your Sludge Wave Dragon Pulse nuke OHKOs Opposing Alowak. Revenge kills Azumarill under Trick Room too, since it can tank a +6 Aqua Jet

So? Have I just been lucky, or does True Dragon live up to his dragon kindred?

 

[shnowshner]

I wonder how far the speed-creep war will go with Marowaks.

Anyway as we're talking about Trick Room I've been using a couple of sets to combat the archetype on various teams, and they've been pretty successful for me.


Weavile @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Ice Shard
- Brick Break
Hard TR does not want to deal with this. Beats Red Card/Mental Herb users by removing their item first and then Taunting them. Oblivious Slowbro is the best answer as won't care about Taunt, but still loses its item and takes a ton from Knock Off. It also has doubled utility against Screens offense, as it can Brick Break Screens away after using Knock-Taunt. Ice Shard hits decently hard, lets it get off damage before going down, and gives it a revenge killing role. Being immune to targeted Prankster moves is another boon, as it forces uncomfortable situations for support Grimmsnarl, which is unable to keep Screens up if you keep Taunting and Brick Breaking it. Against slower set-up sweepers and anything that uses status+single attack, it's very successful at being a deadly nuisance.


Rhyperior @ Iron Ball
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
Iron Ball lets Rhyperior safely underspeed a variety of Trick Room Pokemon, and it's already so strong after a Swords Dance that a boosting item isn't really needed. SD + EQ destroys almost anything it hits. Marowak has no chance of attempting to Speed-creep this, and you get the jump on base 20's as well. Definitely viable on TR, but I've run it on a couple HO teams as a means of improving my matchup against Trick Room. If I'm not facing Trick Room, I can either save it in the back as a sturdy Physical tank that can take something down with it. Sometimes I lead Rhyperior if the match-up is bad enough just to force KO pressure on their team and go from there.

 

[alephgalactus]

I wonder how far the speed-creep war will go with Marowaks.

It’s gone too far already. I saw a team with a Marowak at Level 94. One wonders at what point it’ll start hindering their ability to net the KOs they need to get.

 

[nu nu X]

I don't know if this has been reported yet, but it seems that redirection ignoring moves and abilities continue to target the user if the user goes for a move that targets themselves first:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8linked-1146001943 (Turn 8)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8linked-1146365738
I apologize in advance if it already has been.

 

[Ivy]

By the way, folks, as I'm sure a few of you have seen, gen 8's dynamic move ordering DOES affect Linked. So if you have a move that changes Speed in a link, that will affect the remaining moves that turn, potentially interrupting the link if the user becomes slower.