Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v5 (usage in post #547)

[BlueZy_chu]

Watch out. It's a dead archetype.

Araquanid @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 204 HP / 52 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Liquidation
- Protect
- Sticky Web
- Toxic

No but actually Araquanid is an extremely good check to both Cinderace and Magearna and the webs it provides makes dealing with both of these a whole lot easier for mons like Excadrill as long as you can slot in Knock Off support again Cinderace. I use Tangrowth for this since the soccer bunny likes to switch into it.

I shouldn't need to tell you that Araquanid Liquidation 1 shots Cinderace but let's look at the other side.
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Water Bubble Araquanid: 97-115 (29.5 - 35%) -- 15.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Araquanid: 130-154 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Araquanid: 105-124 (32 - 37.8%) -- 94.3% chance to 3HKO

Araquanid is also a decent back-up check to non-setup Magearna due to its ludicrous SpD when invested.

252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 204 HP / 252+ SpD Araquanid: 138-163 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(obviously this calc is even better when you consider the SpA drop isn't factored in...)

And in return, Araquanid doesn't threaten a whole lot but it's not a slouch.
52 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 130-154 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- 91.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So Cinderace and Magearna both have to pivot out with or just eventually die, which is a free turn for Araquanid to set up webs if they aren't already up. Excadrill is a big abuser of webs as 184+ Spe lets it outspeed even Zeraora at -1, and it generally gets to run a train on anything else if it gets a good switch. And if you get the knockoff on Cinderace, Excadrill can outspeed and 1 hit KO it also.

Obviously it's not going to counter all three of the most complained about Mons, as it struggles vs Urshifu. Nothing is. But when you can get up free team support against two of them that severely cripples the third (a -1 Urshifu is slower than Azumarill) it's a great addition to teams that rely on speed control for success.

 

[Frank M.]

Gotta be careful with webs vs cinderace. Most run HDB, and some still carry court change. I think people put a little too much importance on u-turn. Yeah, momentum is nice when you need it, but taking an opponents screens or switching hazards to their side can win games on its own.

 

[badmonting]

hey guys I'm wondering if you think it's generally okay to use a mon w/ knock off paired w/ another mon w/ Poltergeist (mainly Marowak). For example, say if I'm running bisharp and Marowak, is it better to go w/ throat chop over knock off for bisharp so that Marowak's Poltergeist doesn't have to worry about failing?
From my experience so far, having just one mon w/ knock-off paired w/ Marowak and poltergeist hasn't been that much of an issue. And I really think Marowak is so good rn because poltergeist just hits so damn hard and is almost always free since there are aren't much resistances. However, sometimes when I'm building I feel like I'm bringing the wrong tools to the battle.

 

[Frank M.]

hey guys I'm wondering if you think it's generally okay to use a mon w/ knock off paired w/ another mon w/ Poltergeist (mainly Marowak). For example, say if I'm running bisharp and Marowak, is it better to go w/ throat chop over knock off for bisharp so that Marowak's Poltergeist doesn't have to worry about failing?
From my experience so far, having just one mon w/ knock-off paired w/ Marowak and poltergeist hasn't been that much of an issue. And I really think Marowak is so good rn because poltergeist just hits so damn hard and is almost always free since there are aren't much resistances. However, sometimes when I'm building I feel like I'm bringing the wrong tools to the battle.

I'd say you should just run knock and polt. They're too good to not use. If you ever forget if a pokemon has had its item knocked, you can always hover your mouse over it, and showdown will tell you if it's item was knocked or not. If playing on console, you'll just have to make a mental note, use a personal notes app on your phone, or physically write it down.

You could probably run shadow bone in the 4th slot, too, if you're worried about potentially being left without a ghost STAB.

 

[Dreadfury]

hey guys I'm wondering if you think it's generally okay to use a mon w/ knock off paired w/ another mon w/ Poltergeist (mainly Marowak). For example, say if I'm running bisharp and Marowak, is it better to go w/ throat chop over knock off for bisharp so that Marowak's Poltergeist doesn't have to worry about failing?
From my experience so far, having just one mon w/ knock-off paired w/ Marowak and poltergeist hasn't been that much of an issue. And I really think Marowak is so good rn because poltergeist just hits so damn hard and is almost always free since there are aren't much resistances. However, sometimes when I'm building I feel like I'm bringing the wrong tools to the battle.

Ironically, I genuinely don't think Poltergeist and Knock Off have as much anti-synergy as you might expect despite being moves with extremely similar coverage that function opposite to one-another. A lot of this stems from the fact that each move applies so much pressure on its own and with both Bisharp and Marowak on a team your opponent is going to be stuck in a prediction war in which they have way, way more to lose than you might.

The good news about Dark/Ghost as offensive typings is that they generally tend to be redundant on top of one-another, and a lot of the targets you'd theoretically want to hit with Knock Off are targets you wouldn't really be trying to take out with Poltergeist in the first place. That Mandibuzz you accidentally Knocked Off hates losing its Timbs way, way more than it would've hated losing a manageable chunk of its HP, and suddenly you don't even have to click Poltergeist as often because Flare Blitz has just become that much more spammable.

But if you played around that Mandibuzz and got your Marowak in unscathed, that Mandibuzz user has to make an incredibly dangerous prediction: are you going to click the Flare Blitz and blow it up, or are you going to predict the Mandibuzz user to panic switch and either smack something with that Poltergeist you wouldn't have needed to click normally or, God forbid, clicked Swords Dance against a slower team and checkmated your opponent outright? Get that prediction right and that Marowak probably broke your opponent's defensive backbone; get it wrong and your Marowak is still getting a very strong hit off on something before dying.

Keep in mind that a lot of Poltergeist resists have absolutely no business eating a Flare Blitz, and the list of things that can take a Poltergeist, a Flare Blitz, or a Bonemerang is extremely limited. The stuff that probably wouldn't mind eating a Poltergeist is also often a list of prime Knock Off targets that allow Marowak and Bisharp to massively pressure one-another's checks long-term.

 

[Jaajgko]

Round 1 of WCoP has ended and I think most people who watched the games closely have noticed how many times Magearna, Cinderace and Volcarona have won games, and probably have them in their radar as problematic mons. While Volcarona mainly had success thanks to support options like Heal Bell Chansey/Blissey/Clefable/Togekiss, the other two were able to tear through teams on their own. Cinderace was often able to wear down its checks with Gunk Shot poison or simply U-Turn, and Magearna by tricking its Specs, wearing down checks with volt switch or just predicting correctly the switch-ins. That is why those two standout as problematic elements in the tier. I think we've had enough time to observe how the post-dlc metagame developps and with OLT starting next month, it is really important to take tiering actions soon. I won't say much more bc i'm not sure if it is the right place to discuss potential suspects, but I hope to hear thoughts from the council members in the next days.

 

[Frank M.]

I mean, the biggest thing keeping volc in check in past gens was it taking 50% to SR, and now that it has HDB...

Well, its no wonder its a monster.

 

[UnfortunateSal]

Hey everyone! I wanted to talk about a specific playstyle which I think might be a lot better right now : Trick Room.

So, one of the big problems with Trick Room is this: How do you get your sweepers in safely after setting Trick Room up? You can't U-Turn or Volt Switch since you'll probably be slower than your opponent, and as such, faster under Trick Room. Some TR setters used Lunar Dance but that comes at the cost of KOing the setter, and makes little sense if the TR abuser hasn't been sent in yet. But Teleport provides an absolutely perfect solution to this, letting your set Trick Room up, taking the next hit, and Teleporting away. And becuase of this, Porygon2 is the perfect TR setter right now. It even often manages to set Trick Room up and pivot out multiple tiomes per battle thanks to its sheer immense bulk.

I've been playing around with a couple of TR teams built around P2 / Conk / Marowak / Secondary TR setter / tertiary TR sweeper / TR sweeper + setter and I've had some decent success on the ladder. These teams, from my experience, tends to be very, very matchup based. They will usually either win or lose from team preview, so most battles are completely one-sided. The big problem I've found with this archetype is the need for hazard control, which is very hard to fit on full TR teams. But maybe I'm just building it wrong, I've considered some non-TR defensive glue over the tertiary TR sweeper which is always Azumarill for me, but having something that can switch into Urshifu is pretty invaluable for this type of team given that it forces out pretty much every TR setter.

Here are a couple replays to show off how it works in practice :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1150852365-a9g9p5ml27ge2tni03lbx07b67ed575pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1150857082-7lqgfce7kp9mcrb75b9fz58l1z0buc6pw

 

[musiquepkmn]

Just a heads up: This is my first community post, so I apologize in advance if I do anything wrong

Magearna is probably the single strongest threat in OU at the moment. It has probably the greatest variety of sets in OU, and the checks and counters differ for all of them. You could be anticipating a double dance magearna and switch in your cinderace, only to take a volt switch from an AV set. You could be anticipating AV and bring in you Ferrothorn, then get absolutely demolished by a specs aura sphere. Chansey is great from taking hits from scarf and specs sets, until its eviolite is taken away and it's given a choice item, rendering it nearly useless for the rest of the match. Chief among these sets is the nigh uncounterable specs set. Very few pokemon in OU appreciate taking specs magearna's hits, and every single one of these pokemon gets crippled by getting tricked a choice specs.

Every single pokemon but one.

Ladies and Gentleman, may I introduce you to my single greatest gimmick: *Fling Blissey*

Blissey (F) @ Light Ball/Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fling
- Soft-Boiled
- Shadow Ball/Flamethrower/Seismic Toss
- Teleport/Aromatherapy/Stealth Rock/Seismic Toss

Out of all of the pokemon that I have looked at, only Fling Blissey can both reliably take hits from specs magearna and doesn't care about getting tricked a choice specs. Even with max special attack, modest, and choice specs, Magearna's focus blast does a maximum of 41.7%. More common is aura sphere, which does a maximum of 28%.

"But Musique," you ask, "How does Blissey wall specs magearna? Doesn't it still get crippled by getting tricked a choice specs?" Well, this is where Fling comes in. Fling is an attacking move (not affected by taunt) that. among other things, gets rid of your item. If Blissey is ever unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of a tricked choice specs, it can use fling and get rid of that choice specs. If anything, this is helpful for Blissey, because then it can wall magearna that much better. Max special attack modest magearna with no item deals on a maximum of 28% with focus blast.

"But Musique," you ask, "It may be all fine and dandy when your up against a choice specs magearna, but what about against other magearna sets or even up against a team without magearna?" This is why I put a light ball on this set. Fling is a curious move where the attack might have additional effects if you're holding specific items. One of these is a Light Ball, which when fling is used while holding it, paralyzes the opponent. Although this does cost your leftovers, its still helpful to be able to spread that Yellow Magic. Double Dance magearnas hate when they're paralyzed, because then they have a hard time outspeeding mons even after shift gear boosts. All Blissey needs to do is spread some Yellow Magic to Magearna, then teleport out into Cinderace, Alolawak, Excadrill, or any mon that can revenge kill Magearna.

Even though flinging a light ball is still a direct downgrade from thunder wave, its not as direct as you think. Fling still can do some things that thunder wave can't:
1. Not affected by taunt
2.*100% Accurate*
3.Can paralyze ground types switching in such as Excadrill, Diggersby, and Hippowdon.
I don't need to tell you how good paralysis is, too. You know how Dragapult or Scarf Hydreigon is seriously troubled by the thought of getting their speed halved.

Now, I'm not going to tell you that this is a meta set. I'm not even going to tell you that this is a end-all-be-all counter to all magearna sets. Sets with Pain split or the rare substitute eat this set for breakfast.
Here is a proof of concept for Magearna vs. Fling Blissey
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1150511040

I've brought this up with multiple people before, and nearly all of them say the same thing: "But what about Leftovers? The main reason you'd run Blissey over Chansey is that you can run lefties." To honor all of these comments, I have put leftovers as an option in the set. However, this here is another reason to run Blissey over Chansey. If Chansey loses its eviolite, it becomes worse than Blissey, and since this set is about losing your item, it's better to go with a mon that can afford to lose that. Thus, Blissey.

Believe me, I've tried to find another, less gimmicky way to beat specs mag, and the closest options I can find are AV sticky hold Gastrodon and Silvally-Fire, neither of which can lose their items. However, Gastrodon still takes around 50% from Specs Fleur Cannon, and has no method of recovery whatsoever. Silvally fire has calcs that look better (max 38.8% from Fleur Cannon and max 47.9% from Focus Blast), but not only does it also have no method of recovery, but its also has a unfixable weakness to stealth rocks. Maybe these mons would've worked if it was pre-DLC, but now that DLC is out, wishporting is not a braindead healing option anymore.

In conlusion: Ban Magearna, but in the meantime, use Fling Blissey.

 

[1LDK]

Blissey (F) @ Light Ball/Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fling
- Soft-Boiled
- Shadow Ball/Flamethrower/Seismic Toss
- Teleport/Aromatherapy/Stealth Rock/Seismic Toss

As the low ladder noob i am, let me tell you that you are an absolute madlad, but there is a little problem
Acconding to Pokelytics, Mag's most used partners are mons like Urshifu Single Strike, Cinderace and Clefable, the former counters blissey, the first latter checks it and Clefable is inmune to status unless someone is hardcore enough to use Unawere Clefable in 2020

Speaking of hardcore, unless you are literaly 5000000 IQ to trow a Light Ball at Urshifu/Cinderace, you are mostly forcing yourself out, and even if u do that, the mission of "stop mag" failed

still, you have great creativity (witch I dont) and I hope we can see more of you in the future

also yeah ban mag :,3

 

[Frank M.]

If we're talking about nutty sets to counter potentially ban-worthy mons, heres my snorlax set that aims to take on volcarona and magearna.

Snorlax @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Darkest Lariat
- Rock Slide
- Heat Crash

Volc's +2 fire blast does 24.7 - 29.2%, dies to rock slide. ive made many people ragequit.
specs Mag's fleur cannon does 46.4 - 54.8%, 2hKO'd by heat crash which does 62 - 73.6%

 

[musiquepkmn]

As the low ladder noob i am, let me tell you that you are an absolute madlad, but there is a little problem
Acconding to Pokelytics, Mag's most used partners are mons like Urshifu Single Strike, Cinderace and Clefable, the former counters blissey, the first latter checks it and Clefable is inmune to status unless someone is hardcore enough to use Unawere Clefable in 2020

Speaking of hardcore, unless you are literaly 5000000 IQ to trow a Light Ball at Urshifu/Cinderace, you are mostly forcing yourself out, and even if u do that, the mission of "stop mag" failed

still, you have great creativity (witch I dont) and I hope we can see more of you in the future

also yeah ban mag :,3

Yeah, you are definitely right. A good option, though, is teleport because it goes after mag's volt switch or switch out, and punishes pretty much anything it can go for. Teleport Blissey/Chansey is underrated too. Also, regarding the AV snorlax set, it's great! I just try to avoid assault vest in general if I want to wall something, because you can't have instant recovery with it. That's just me, though

On the other hand, I've been trying to find a counter to Darkshifu. What I've settled on is Hawlucha, but it's still open. Hawlucha's typing against Urshifu is absolutely splendid. It resists all 4 of the most common Urshifu moves (Wicked Blow, Close Combat, Poison Jab, Uturn) while having taunt to shut down bulk up sets. Not only does it have that, it has defog, instant recovery in roost, U-turn for momentum, and the Underrated Flying Press, which is Quad Effective on Darkshifu due to the fact that it is a fighting and flying move at the same time. Here is the set, which I do not recommend you use but it is still here for reference:

Hawlucha @ Rocky Helmet/Leftovers/Heavy-Duty Boots/Figy Berry
Ability: Limber/Mold Breaker/Unburden
EVs:252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Taunt/Defog
- Roost
- Flying Press/Dual Wingbeat/Drain Punch
- U-turn

Oh man do I want this to work. Its moveset would make it seem like a Mandibuzz with good attacking options. It has utility in Defog and Uturn. It can even stay alive longer with Drain Punch, too. A cool thing to do is to have Figy Berry, which not only heals you, but procs unburden, so you have a very fast tank.

Sadly, that's where it ends. Even when invested fully into defense, it still takes 40%+ from banded wicked blow. Without any sort of rocks or chip, this means you can only barely survive two banded wicked blows and roost to tell the tale. Also, it doesn't wall too much else. It can sorta wall excadrill, but excadrill can set up and 4 atk flying press doesn't 2HKO excadrill. It may be able to wall other things, but sadly, its not too good as a wall overall.

My solution to this was to use grassy seed unburden, like the sweeper set. This gives it much needed defense and can outspeed pretty much any offensive mon uninvested, and still take their hits well. However, if you're going to use grassy seed hawlucha, just be offensive and sweep. It's not too hard. Alas, the search continues.

Admittedly I came up with the unburden Figy berry set while typing this, so I haven't planned for it lol. It might work well as a one time switch in to urshifu, but like with dracovish, they can just switch out. In the process of getting a proof of concept, poison jab on Urshifu kept poisoning Hawlucha, which rendered it useless. Also, even if it was good and walled Urshifu well, Urshifu would just run Zen Headbutt and 2HKO Hawlucha.

Look out for defensive Chandelure; kudos to you if you can figure out who that could wall.

Sorry if this lacked a little substance :/

EDIT: Scratch that: defensive Chandelure is trash and Alolawak does it better. I will not be leaving cool kid cliffhangers in the future

 

[1LDK]

Okay, this set is really bad, but since we are on the topic of bad sets that counter metagame staples
[Breathes in]*

You guys havent seen s**t
I am the Elon Musk of bad ideas!!!
None of your trashy sets will ever outshine the king of the junkyard!!!

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 120 HP / 136 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Bubble Beam
- Grass Knot
- Calm Mind

Yup, Clefable with attacks, what is this? Pre-Home meta?

Why?
-Since fire, water and grass covers everything and hits our beloved targets with SE damage, lets just do what we must if we want to survive in the jungle, the spread is to brawl with things as good as possible

Anyways, this set lets you:
-make beetween 41% to 49% to Volcarona at +0 and the damage calcutation stays the same if you both at +1
-its a check to all the sets of Magearna unless its the Assault-Vest variant (can someone tell me why Iron Head and Flash cannon on the same set?)
-In theory, this makes you hit everything at least neutrally and check thing (surprise factor)

This set loses to:
-Urshifu Single Strike since no fairy moves on this thing so this set is free entry
-Cinderace with Gunk Shot
-Assault Vest Mag
-Funily enough, with this set you now lose to Hydreigon of all things xD

Teammates:
Hippowdown is a nice partner for this clefable since the damage adds up with sandstorm and stealth rocks and its the best Cinderace check I know
Magearna can check Urshifu and Hydreigon at the same time
You dont have wish support on this thing so you can slap a Rillaboom if you want, idk


I know its bad and nobody will use this. Can we change topic? thanks :;3
Edit: Fixed grammar + spelling mistakes

 

[musiquepkmn]

Okay, this set is really bad, but since we are on the topic of bad sets that counter metagame staples
[Breathes in]*

You guys havent seen s**t
I am the Elon Musk of bad ideas!!!
None of your trashy sets will ever outshine the king of the junkyard!!!

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 120 HP / 136 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Bubble Beam
- Grass Knot
- Calm Mind

Yup, Clefable with attacks, what is this? Pre-Home meta?

Why?
-Since fire, water and grass covers everything and hits our beloved targets with SE damage, lets just do what we must if we want to survive in the jungle, the spread is to brawl with things as good as possible

Anyways, this set lets you:
-make beetween 41% to 49% to Volcarona at +0 and the damage calcutation stays the same if you both at +1
-its a check to all the sets of Magearna unless its the Assault-Vest variant (can someone tell me why Iron Head and Flash cannon on the same set?)
-In theory, this makes you hit everything at least neutrally and check thing (surprise factor)

This set loses to:
-Urshifu Single Strike since no fairy moves on this thing so this set is free entry
-Cinderace with Gunk Shot
-Assault Vest Mag
-Funily enough, with this set you now lose to Hydreigon of all things xD

Teammates:
Hippowdown is a nice partner for this clefable since the damage adds up with sandstorm and stealth rocks and its the best Cinderace check I know
Magearna can check Urshifu and Hydreigon at the same time
You dont have wish support on this thing so you can slap a Rillaboom if you want, idk


I know its bad and nobody will use this. Can we change topic? thanks :;3
Edit: Fixed grammar + spelling mistakes

You think you are the King of the Junkyard of bad sets? This is about to be an all-out brawl. (Nah for real we got Emvee for that)

In all seriousness, your set does not check magearna with flash cannon. Mag is so powerful its not even funny. Magearna's Flash Cannon with 0 investment and a neutral spatk nature has a 67.6% chance to 2HKO. Meanwhile, it's almost like you EVd your set specifically to miss out on a 2HKO on 0HP 0SPD mag with flamethrower. In fact, that is probably what you did. With the exact amount of EVs you have your max damage on mag is 49.8%, while if you had only 4 more EVs in special attack your max damage would be 50.4%. I do be apprectiating the fwg tho. Very underrepresented core.

 

[badmonting]

I don't think this is really a nutty set, just not something you'd see too often in OU, that really speaks to the power of Magearna

Arcanine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Sp.Def / 120 Def/ 16 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Morning Sun
- Will'O Wisp/Toxic
- Teleport

Arcanine normally runs pure phys def in UU, but I've found some success running sp. def investment to use as a counter for Magearna, and overall pivot w/ it's access to teleport. Timid nature w/ 16 evs allows Arcanine to just outspeed max speed Magearna w/o scarf. The sp. def EVs are there purposely so that specs focus blast (assuming Magearna is running timid) will do just a bit over half. Arcanine can then recover off the damage w/ morning sun and hope for a miss if Magearna stays in. Focus blast has as many PP as Morning Sun, but the odds are in your favor as we all know the nature of Focus Miss. Good Sp.Def investment also allows it to tank volt switches, and Fleur cannons. 120 Def EVs are there because Arcanine overall arguably wants to run as much phys def as possible w/ it's amazing ability, and it allows you to be reliably out of ohko range from a choice band Urshifu's wicked blow (not that you should use Arcanine as an Urshifu counter of course).

In particular, although Rotom-Heat seems like a better overall counter to Magearna due to it's typing (i.e. the added electric typing allowing it to resist bolt beam) and the offensive pressure it provides w/ Nasty Plot along w/ amazing stab coverage, one thing that Arcanine really has over it is Teleport. This way, if you switch into a specs Fleur Cannon for instance, your opponent will almost always switch out due to the sp. atk drops and being afraid of a fire attack, and then you can teleport for momentum. It also has reliable recovery unlike Rotom. Access to Will-o-wisp also makes it a bit harder to switch into; Azumarill, Kommo-o, Dragapult, etc. may not want to switch in if your opponent knows you have will-o-wisp. Toxic is really nice too for walls like Hippowdon, but from my experience purely in OU will-o-wisp has been the better overall option since it (unlike Toxic) can be used to wear down Magearna, and generally speaking it seems like most of the Arcanine's checks in OU seem to be physical attackers, whose users tend to be more scared of a burn than getting poisoned.

 

[Dreadfury]

Okay, this set is really bad, but since we are on the topic of bad sets that counter metagame staples
[Breathes in]*

You guys havent seen s**t
I am the Elon Musk of bad ideas!!!
None of your trashy sets will ever outshine the king of the junkyard!!!

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 120 HP / 136 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Bubble Beam
- Grass Knot
- Calm Mind

Yup, Clefable with attacks, what is this? Pre-Home meta?

Why?
-Since fire, water and grass covers everything and hits our beloved targets with SE damage, lets just do what we must if we want to survive in the jungle, the spread is to brawl with things as good as possible

Anyways, this set lets you:
-make beetween 41% to 49% to Volcarona at +0 and the damage calcutation stays the same if you both at +1
-its a check to all the sets of Magearna unless its the Assault-Vest variant (can someone tell me why Iron Head and Flash cannon on the same set?)
-In theory, this makes you hit everything at least neutrally and check thing (surprise factor)

This set loses to:
-Urshifu Single Strike since no fairy moves on this thing so this set is free entry
-Cinderace with Gunk Shot
-Assault Vest Mag
-Funily enough, with this set you now lose to Hydreigon of all things xD

Teammates:
Hippowdown is a nice partner for this clefable since the damage adds up with sandstorm and stealth rocks and its the best Cinderace check I know
Magearna can check Urshifu and Hydreigon at the same time
You dont have wish support on this thing so you can slap a Rillaboom if you want, idk


I know its bad and nobody will use this. Can we change topic? thanks :;3
Edit: Fixed grammar + spelling mistakes

See, there's just one minor issue with this set:

Clefable is supposed to check or counter Dragon types, not get completely walled by them.

I'm all for heat sets a-la Omari P, but I feel like a set of this nature kinda moves beyond "heat" and enters "bad" territory.

Fling Blissey is kinda nice, though. I'm a fan of that set since it actually serves a pretty interesting purpose in checking Magearna.

 

[theotherguytm]

However, Gastrodon still takes around 50% from Specs Fleur Cannon, and has no method of recovery whatsoever

It literally learns Recover.
Keep the heat coming people.

 

[musiquepkmn]

It literally learns Recover.
Keep the heat coming people.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I was talking about Assault Vest Gastrodon, with the Sticky Hold ability.

 

[Gefährlicher Random]

I want to share my opinion on Magearna as i feel like many people want to see it suspected or banned rn and i personally dont agree with that.

First of all its pretty clear that Magearna is without a doubt one of the best Pokemon in the tier and i think most people will agree with that. Specs is incedibly strong and has access to Trick which is a great tool to mess up more defensive teams. Calm Mind + Shift Gear, Calm Mind + Sub, Calm Mind + Heart Swap, Shift Gear 3 Attacks and Scarf are all good sets and with most people expecting a Specs variant they get even more powerful. The different sets have different checks and counters and if you arent careful Mag can win pretty quickly. Mag has ways to beat pretty much every mon in the metagame if you have the right set.

With that all being said i think Mag isnt broken. While Specs is very powerful and doenst have a reliable counter, there are many mons and combinations of mons which are really annoying. Pex, Amoonguss, Blissey, Volcarona, Drill, Ferro are really good against it and most teams have something like a combination of Volt Switch Absorb, Regen Mon like Pex, Amoongus or Blissey to deal with it (+things like a fire). This might sound shaky but most of the times you cant really play long games with specs Mag and you get chipped really easily. You need to knock potential Black Sludges before you Trick and even if you trick a passive mon more often then not you have a weak mag and the opponent can still carry on to use his tricked mon which is still useful especially Pex or Amoonguss which can click attacking or status moves bc they dont need to heal up most of the time (of course this is a little bit exaggerated).
I also think that the current trend of fires being so popular and hazards falling a little bit out of favor doesnt help Mag.

Of course the other Mag Sets are also good but no matter what you use there will be a few mons which ''counter'' the set you run and you kinda depend on a good mu which hurts them quiet a lot. Specs is imo the most reliable set.

With World Cup being the meta defining tour right now im really excited for usage and win rates. Ive looked a bit into detail on Mag usage and win rates for the top 3 teams out of Round 1:

Germany Usage: 16.67% (4/24), 25% Win Rate
Italy Usage: 20.8% (5/24), 40% Win Rate
US West Usage 20.8% (5/24), 60% Win Rate

(with Germany, Italy and US West having a combined winrate of 65.27%)

Of course i know that these stats dont mean too much as every game is different and has thousands of things which decide the outcome so you cant really jump to conclusions here.

I think Magerna is kind of a theorymon which seems incedibly strong in the builder and can 6:0 most teams with the right set but in actual battles its often times not as broken as people think. Magerna one of the top 5 Pokemon right now but not ban or even suspect worthy in my opinion.

 

[1LDK]

Okay, the trashy sets were fun, but time to actually try my best to contribute something to the meta

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 80 SpA / 176 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast

This is the AV Slowking from gen 6 but I tried my best to update the spread and moves to make it suitable to the meta

Why?
Scald as STAB and Volc answer
Fire Blast is our Mag answer
the fun is in Ice Beam and Future Sight, with Ice beam you can punish dragons and togekiss for trying to enter, and future sight is a underated option that makes the oponent having to act in paralalel and akward constantly

This set lets you:
-Make 57.8 - 68.1% to Volcarona with Scald while getting 3HKO with +0 Bug Buzz
-Actually checks Magearna, because you can tank her hits nicely and the only thing you fear is getting tricked (I used all the smogon sets of Mag + the OU´s Next Best thing)
-Laughs at Hydreigon and making 47.3 - 56% with ice beam
-Rotom Heat need Nasty Plot discharge to kill you (16% chance to 2HKO) while you get a guaranteed 2HKO on it
EDIT: I forgot about Alakazam, he needs a +2 Shadow Ball to have a chance of 9% of 2HKOing while you have a guaranteed 3HKO with Scald

This set loses to:
-You dont staight up lose to Togekiss but the mashup is shaky (its a 3HKO with Ice Beam while +2 Air Slash does 28.1 - 33.5% witch means it has a 0.1% of 3HKO, but thats if toge is not behind a sub and doesnt flinch slowking) so I dont recomend you to use this as your only Togekiss answer
-If the standard Slowbro takes a big chunk with Cinderace U-turn and/or Sucker Punch, image Slowking with no Def Investment. Physical Attackers in general can potentialy use Slowking as a free entry
-You seriously need AV to do all the things above comfortably so Slowking HATES Knock Off and Trick with burning passion, and since you dont have support moves, you have to be a bit carefull when using this set
-Toxic can put this set on a fast ticking timer that can let you to messy situations

Teammates:
-Regenerator friends like Pex, Amoongoos and Tangrowth because the power of friendship and Regenerator can do eveything :,3
-Mons that love Mag and Volc being gone in general such as [insert mons]* can be paired with it

is it niche? yes
But giving this set a try wont kill anyone... I hope

 

[MrHands]

Okay, the trashy sets were fun, but time to actually try my best to contribute something to the meta

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 80 SpA / 176 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast

This is the AV Slowking from gen 6 but I tried my best to update the spread and moves to make it suitable to the meta

Why?
Scald as STAB and Volc answer
Fire Blast is our Mag answer
the fun is in Ice Beam and Future Sight, with Ice beam you can punish dragons and togekiss for trying to enter, and future sight is a underated option that makes the oponent having to act in paralalel and akward constantly

This set lets you:
-Make 57.8 - 68.1% to Volcarona with Scald while getting 3HKO with +0 Bug Buzz
-Actually checks Magearna, because you can tank her hits nicely and the only thing you fear is getting tricked (I used all the smogon sets of Mag + the OU´s Next Best thing)
-Laughs at Hydreigon and making 47.3 - 56% with ice beam
-Rotom Heat need Nasty Plot discharge to kill you (16% chance to 2HKO) while you get a guaranteed 2HKO on it
EDIT: I forgot about Alakazam, he needs a +2 Shadow Ball to have a chance of 9% of 2HKOing while you have a guaranteed 3HKO with Scald

This set loses to:
-You dont staight up lose to Togekiss but the mashup is shaky (its a 3HKO with Ice Beam while +2 Air Slash does 28.1 - 33.5% witch means it has a 0.1% of 3HKO, but thats if toge is not behind a sub and doesnt flinch slowking) so I dont recomend you to use this as your only Togekiss answer
-If the standard Slowbro takes a big chunk with Cinderace U-turn and/or Sucker Punch, image Slowking with no Def Investment. Physical Attackers in general can potentialy use Slowking as a free entry
-You seriously need AV to do all the things above comfortably so Slowking HATES Knock Off and Trick with burning passion, and since you dont have support moves, you have to be a bit carefull when using this set
-Toxic can put this set on a fast ticking timer that can let you to messy situations

Teammates:
-Regenerator friends like Pex, Amoongoos and Tangrowth because the power of friendship and Regenerator can do eveything :,3
-Mons that love Mag and Volc being gone in general such as [insert mons]* can be paired with it

is it niche? yes
But giving this set a try wont kill anyone... I hope

Another move option is Zap Cannon. Similar to Scald it's not about the damage output but more about flipping a coin to punish repeated switch ins over a long game.

Also getting fucked by a lucky hit from AV Zap Cannon Slowking is really tilting. I imagine you'll see a lot of rage quits.

 

[GMars]

I love seeing the creativity from everyone, but it'd probs be best to post future niche sets over in the heat thread so it doesn't take over meta discussion too much.

 

[musiquepkmn]

I've been watching a lot of world cup lately, and I can no longer take credit for the fling blissey set. Because of the huge amount of trick in world cup rn (sticky barb trick clef, scarf trick clef, scarf trick jirachi) John W used fling Jirachi in round 1 in his first match. Jirachi is great as a mag counter because it outspeeds most versions but the supbar scarf and double dance. Double dance can't touch jirachi anyways. Fling isn't a new move or anything, but just a heads up.

Just so this isn't a one liner, I just thought up of lagging tail clef. Clef can bait in a lot of offensive mons such as Cinderace, Rillaboom, Excadrill, and giving them a lagging tail opens up them to revenge killing or even switching in later on. It still works against stall, since you can evaluate at team preview and see if you need to trick a tail. If not, you can just fire off teleports even slower than opposing clef's. I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't new, though.

Clefable @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Wish/Soft-Boiled
- Teleport/Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Trick


Edit: Also I've been hearing that many World cup players are preferring Blissey over Chansey as a pivot on balance teams because it can run Heavy-Duty Boots. Just another reason to use Blissey, I guess.

 

[Cuddly]

Edit: Also I've been hearing that many World cup players are preferring Blissey over Chansey as a pivot on balance teams because it can run Heavy-Duty Boots. Just another reason to use Blissey, I guess.

Yeah, Finch was talking about it in a video of Don’t use this, use this instead.
Chansey is the better Stealth Rocker and Blissey is the better Pivot/Teleport abuser thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots.
Chansey and Blissey are closer to being as viable as each other this Gen than in Gen 5 when Sand would permanently negate your leftovers.
Also apparently people are using Sirfetch’d as an alternative to Urshifu apparently. Of course being worse in every regard besides Scrappy.

edit: Certified Dumbass lmao.

 

[Finchinator]

Also apparently people are using Sirfetch’d as an alternative to Urshifu apparently. Of course being worse in every regard besides Scrappy.

Fwiw having Wicked Blow to hit Ghosts compensates for the lack of Scrappy and being able to go through Protect with Urshifu is honestly amazing. There is virtually 0 reason to use Sirfetch’d and even Pokemon like Conkeldurr/Heracross have fallen completely out of favor. This isn’t even a reason to ban or suspect Urshifu so much as it’s just a natural consequence of its current position in the metagame; it’s worth noting that there’s not a direct correlation there.

PS: it’s Finch, not Flinch