Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v5 (usage in post #547)

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So maybe the +SpDef would be the important factor here for you but since Lucha isn't grounded Zen Headbutt isn't going to ever beat Acro in terms of power - it doesn't benefit from Psychic Terrain other than by stopping priority
ah yeah, the important thing is that the +SpDef prevents it from OHKOing. Also, it can WoW and prevent the 2HKO, so it doesn't really matter
 
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I think you'd generally want to run speed EVs. There isn't a lot in the 80 base range but you still want to beat stuff like Scizor, Magnezone, Kommo etc.

Probably Fire Blast or Overheat over Psychic. Psychic isn't even a guaranteed OHKO on Pex and besides KommoO there aren't really any other targets. You could even drop Psychic for CM to put pressure on defensive teams post Trick.

Anyway Chandelure is neat. It's one of those things that will never be OU but every time you see them in team preview you think "damn I'm really weak to this".
Chandelure vs Pex calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 258-304 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 216-256 (71 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 114-134 (35.1 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Chandelure vs Volca:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 252-297 (81 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Flamethrower vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 169-199 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Flash Fire Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 378-445 (121.5 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flash Fire Chandelure Flamethrower vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 252-297 (81 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO:

252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 110-130 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 164-194 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Steel bois vs Chandelure:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 262-310 (80.8 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 232-274 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And he OHKO in return.

I guess it really depends what purpose Chandelure has. I gave him specifically 252 HP to tank what Volca throws at him, but yeah Scizor and Magnezone are very fair points. I guess it really needs to be optimized but 90/90 defenses aren't that bad.
 
Just played a match where I allowed the opponent's volcarona to get in two quiver dances, and I thought I was going to get sweeped. Sent in cinderace after my dragapult was killed because he knows sucker punch. Didn't OHKO but because of libero my type changed to dark and was then immune to the volcarona's psychic. From there I was able to win. Didn't plan it, so was pretty happy when it happened.
 
I think bomb is important purely for the fairy types. Azu after a belly drum still chips you down, even with huge power gone. It also lets weezing handle clefable better.

I've been getting decent use out of defog, but toxic is also a good option. It's ability lets it deny clef magic guard, so it can poison or burn it and wear it down.

On that note, would it be worth running taunt on weezing with some speed to outpace clef? Burn it with will-o-wisp, wear it down with sludge, and taunt to prevent recovery/calm mind.
Honestly after rethinking and playing a bit more I definitely believe that I have been undervaluing Sludge Bomb. Something that is kind of niche but worth noting re the SpA investment I posted beforehand actually gives you a slightly stronger 1vs1 matchup vs the more common 252/160/96+ spread that has been floating around (I believe this is to emergency check Lucha whilst also avoiding 2hko from Urshifu among other things?)

It really comes down to the completely unique properties of Neutralizing Gas as a whole and even without the investment you've got an incredible 1vs1 matchup against any non-CM Clef but notably 44 SpA allows you to always guarantee the 2HKO if you get the 30% poison on the first hit due to the negation of Magic GuardAlso guarantees the 2HKO if Clef switches in with Rocks, Spikes or T.Spikes up for the same reason, although this isn't particularly relevant since Clef is unlikely to come in on Weezing as no matter what set it is it should generally get punished, getting status off on Clef for even 1 turn massively dents it's ability to function effectively since negating passive damage is such a huge part of what makes pivots useful.

Regarding Taunt, I'm not 100% but I don't believe that offensive Clef is really that much of a thing anymore for a few notable interconnected reasons, one being that due to Urshifu, Increased access to Priority, etc Conkeldurr has massively dropped off and whilst Marowak hits the same tier I don't believe that it can perform it's role in checking what it needs to with max speed investment on most team compositions. I've seen significantly more slow CM Clefs personally so yeah I don't think Taunt is really that bad given you'll only need a slight investment to creep.


Yeah so usually people won't run Tspikes + Toxic because it's sort of a waste to have both - except for the fact that HDB are pretty common, and then combined with the fact that many popular defoggers are poison weak, and then factor in Magic Guard, Levitate, and other abilities, and TS aren't usually going to win you games. This strategy was a meme sometime last gen basically for the same reasons - Tspikes for instance really put a timer on offensive teams and bulky cores that are weak to them (e.g. Tangrowth) but they're so easy to remove that running Toxic can help chip down defoggers and force opponents into awkward switches they might not otherwise want to make.
This makes a lot of sense, I'd noticed how useful the poison chance on Sludge bomb was vs Clef but beyond that utilizing T.Spikes to force in Mandi, Rotom-H etc seems really solid if you have a consistent answer to Pex and whilst you're annoyed by Corv it's declining usage plus the fact that you sit on all of it's coverage moves for days means you can bully it with Pain Split and predict the U-Turns to try and nail something with Toxic. I think following on from the Grassy Terrain concept given that Weezing-Galars entire purpose is to essentially simplify gamestates in 1vs1 scenarios having a layer of T.Spike up means you're always coming out ahead if you're negating things like Regenerator.

It's a shame this mon has such 4mss you'd really like to be able to pressure Pex + Amoonguss better with less slots but in this regard it feels like you can still get a lot of value from partnering with something like Urshifu that forces pivoting on two fronts. A pretty common form of counterplay to Urshifu as we've all seen has been pairing mons like Pex + Mandibuzz together that resist STAB + Coverage combinations and can pivot around whilst passively regenerating. If your opponents initial switch into Urshifu is Pex then on the 2nd turn doubling into Weezing to position yourself completely negates regenerator since you're faster and sets up your own sweeps later in the game in a similar fashion to how people utilize Future Sight Slowbro to stack damage on key turns it works the same way just inverted.

If their switch is immediately to Mandibuzz to resist the 2nd Wicked Blow you're actually just so far ahead with the Toxic + T.Spikes strategy; Mandi either gets nailed with a Toxic by staying in if it has Knock off (which is rarer given the increased Utility of Brave Bird + Foul Play right now), or you set up a layer of T.Spikes as it pivots out and then you've positioned yourself incredibly to attempt to force the Pex back up to 33% lower than it was. If you call the Pex switch-in at the right time then Urshifu succeeds in completely busting open your opponent's defensive core and Weezing has done so whilst taking basically no damage outside of perhaps losing it's Black Sludge.


I’ve been running Psychic Seed Hawlucha, so you're not necessarily guaranteed to get an OHKO. I can do the calcs later but I think this is a reasonable set that shouldn’t be overlooked as it pairs well with Psychic spam thanks to it having a favorable matchup against the Dark and Steel types (except Corviknight)
Yeah this is a very good point that I didn't mention. I think in these matchups given that Indeedee partners are often Alakazam or Volcarona in addition to Lucha Weezing is pretty much dead weight and won't be doing much. If anything that's perhaps another point in favour of running Weezing alongside a competing terrain.
 
Something also worth noting is that weezing got corrosive gas via the DLC, which lets it remove items.

Think about that for a second; weezing can now remove held items. If you dont need it to defog, it might be worth trying out! Any mon that could potentially switch into weezing now has to worry about losing its item. Heavy duty boots cinder/volc, eviolite chansey, leftovers corv, rocky helmet ferrothorn, black sludge pex, etc.
 
Something also worth noting is that weezing got corrosive gas via the DLC, which lets it remove items.

Think about that for a second; weezing can now remove held items. If you dont need it to defog, it might be worth trying out! Any mon that could potentially switch into weezing now has to worry about losing its item. Heavy duty boots cinder/volc, eviolite chansey, leftovers corv, rocky helmet ferrothorn, black sludge pex, etc.
Facts tho I'm expecting an increase in Galar Weezing usage now due to added Utility and I feel that will also help it out on doubles.
 
I hear people saying Urshifu lacks hard counters but what about clefable with max defense and HP EVs and a calm (I mean bold) nature? OHKOs urshifu with moonblast and can survive two wicked blows. Poison jab will two hit KO but urshifu is usually banded. And if it's not you'll still most likely take wicked blow on the switch in - and the unbanded poison jab won't kill the clefable.
 
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I hear people saying Urshifu lacks hard counters but what about clefable with max defense and HP EVs and a calm nature? OHKOs urshifu with moonblast and can survive two wicked blows. Poison jab will two hit KO but urshifu is usually banded. And if it's not you'll still most likely take wicked blow on the switch in - and the unbanded poison jab won't kill the clefable.
its not a hard counter if it gets 2HKO'd by poison jab.
 
I hear people saying Urshifu lacks hard counters but what about clefable with max defense and HP EVs and a calm nature? OHKOs urshifu with moonblast and can survive two wicked blows. Poison jab will two hit KO but urshifu is usually banded. And if it's not you'll still most likely take wicked blow on the switch in - and the unbanded poison jab won't kill the clefable.
Adding on to what the guy above me said, Clefable doesn't even run 252 HP / 252 Def with a Calm Bold nature (why Calm if you're running PhysDef spreads? - Calm boosts SpDef, Bold boosts Def.) that often. If it's going to run that just to check something it's likely not going to check, what's the point of even running Max Defense Clefable in the first place? You're likely better off running Max SpDef Clefable to check other things and not Urushifu-SS.
 
its not a hard counter if it gets 2HKO'd by poison jab.
Tbf, I put in the wrong nature in the calculator. With Clefable's nature as bold, banded urshifu has only a 4% chance of two hit KOing clefable with poison jab.

Adding on to what the guy above me said, Clefable doesn't even run 252 HP / 252 Def with a Calm Bold nature (why Calm if you're running PhysDef spreads? - Calm boosts SpDef, Bold boosts Def.) that often. If it's going to run that just to check something it's likely not going to check, what's the point of even running Max Defense Clefable in the first place? You're likely better off running Max SpDef Clefable to check other things and not Urushifu-SS.
Not sure what you mean. Bold is the single most common nature for clefable according to pikalytics. https://www.pikalytics.com/pokedex/gen8ou/clefable
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
Tbf, I put in the wrong nature in the calculator. With Clefable's nature as bold, banded urshifu has only a 4% chance of two hit KOing clefable with poison jab.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
???

So that this isn't just a one-liner, I'll just speak my current thoughts on darkshifu. I think it's not broken but it is very limiting. Choice band is easily the best set, I think other viable sets like BU LO 3 attacks are worse as they still struggle with mons like unaware clef on stall, and lose a lot of longevity as a result of LO. The best way to handle darkshifu is by using max phys def toxapex/tangrowth to scout the cb lock then pivot into the appropriate resist like clefable, mandibuzz, keep pex in, w/e. Most people know this already and have built accordingly, and darkshifu has to make several correct guesses to break through these cores, after which u may not have much pp left to actually break with bc wicked blow/cc both only have 8 pp. So while its damn near unwallable on paper, in practice it will rarely overcome stall on its own and half the time ur better off just u-turning on clef/pex into a real mans breaker like gengar. In other words, its not too independent like some other godlike breakers of gen7 were (mmaw, tapu lele). The only support they needed was getting a safe switch-in; darkshifu needs more pressure on typical physical walls to really get going vs full on fat. That's not to say this thing isn't strong as shit though, any time I dont pack a minimum of 2 max physdef pokemon dedicated to beating darkshifu that shit is grabbing a kill vs me every turn, and dark/fight with decent physical bulk is more than enough to get on the field.

TL;DR Darkshifu isn't almighty or independent but still limiting enough to be considered for suspect.
 
My favourite is the Adamant calc where Urshifu doesn't predict:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable on a critical hit: 141-167 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yep. About 40%. Then add in this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 252-298 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And at the worst Clef is burning through its heals to stay out of Wicked Blow range, forget PJab range. If Clef is in PJab range, sac a Steel or pray.
 
The best way to handle darkshifu is by using max phys def toxapex/tangrowth to scout the cb lock then pivot into the appropriate resist like clefable, mandibuzz, keep pex in, w/e. Most people know this already and have built accordingly, and darkshifu has to make several correct guesses to break through these cores, after which u may not have much pp left to actually break with bc wicked blow/cc both only have 8 pp.
Exactly. If a suspect/ban on Urshifu does come, it will be due to the strain it puts on building (requiring the core listed above, or something similar). But with all the talk about bans circulating, there's another mon that's had surprisingly little discussion in this thread recently: Magearna.

:ss/magearna:

In the few weeks Magearna has been in the meta, it has proved itself to be even better than last generation. Even with the lack of Z moves, it has cemented itself as a top breaker with a couple sets. It can be difficult to gauge sets based on team preview alone, and with the plethora of moves available, mispredicting the set can prove detrimental. These are just a few of the sets I've seen over the past few weeks.
Magearna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 216 HP / 156 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Focus Blast / Aura Sphere / Flash Cannon
- Trick
- Volt Switch

Specs Magearna is an extremely consistent breaker. With the amount of fatter teams this gen and the addition of Trick, Magearna is able to function extremely well while choiced. Most Specs variants follow roughly this format; EVs are typically tailored to the team. With the overall reduction in speed this Gen, Magearna finds its speed tier an excellent place to be. Differing amounts of investment can allow the outspeeding of various mons, such as Marowak, Azumarill, most Mandibuzz variants, and Aegislash. Magearna's natural bulk also adds to its usefulness; With a fair amount of investment, it is put out of the range of +6 Aqua Jet from Azumarill, and Magearna is capable of stomaching a few hits throughout the match. However, this set is not without its answers. Things like Rotom-H and Marowak are capable of taking a few hits and dealing significant damage back. However, replays such as this from WCOP show how by constantly applying pressure and preventing Rotom from Pain Splitting, Magearna's few checks can be quickly worn down. And lacking reliable recovery with a stealth rock weakness, Marowak is incapable of being anything more than a bandaid against Specs Magearna. These 4 moves allow Magearna to pivot out on things such as Chansey, pressure bulky steels/have another spammable move in Flash Cannon, and heavily dent even opposing resists with Fleur, while Trick provides utility in removing Chansey's Eviolite and crippling defensive pokemon.

Magearna @ Weakness Policy / Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shift Gear / Iron Defense
- Stored Power / Aura Sphere / Thunderbolt / Flash Cannon
- Draining Kiss / Aura Sphere / Thunderbolt / Flash Cannon

This Magearna set is typically seen on HO such as Screens, and is extremely difficult to deal with. Especially behind screens, it is difficult to prevent Magearna from setting up and sweeping. While having only two moves means the specific set can be walled, each moveset can break threats to the others. For example, Sp.Def Pex with Haze can deal with Stored Power/Draining Kiss, but not if Thunderbolt is in one of those slots. The same goes for other potential answers such as Ferrothorn, Mantine, and Clefable. Even Unaware users struggle to deal with Magearna; behind screens it's difficult to chip away at, while Magearna can easily gain Stored Power boosts. The moves here are slashed just to demonstrate the versatility of this set. While it does share checks with Choiced variants in the form of Rotom-Heat, Marowak, and Volcarona, as stated above, those can be worn down and struggle with another mon commonly used on Screens: Azumarill. Iron Defense behind screens can also be difficult to deal with; once Magearna has set up Defense and Sp.Def Boosts, it becomes difficult to KO. Without aggressive counterplay and a dedicated answer, double dance is capable of securing a sweep in only a few turns.

Magearna @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Focus Blast
- Fleur Cannon
- Trick

While not as threatening as the sets listed above, Scarf definitely deserves mentioning. Surprise factor, as well as being able to revenge things as fast as Alakazam, allows Magearna to function as an effective scarfer. Sitting at 376 speed, it outspeeds things such as Gengar, Cinderace, and unboosted Barreskewda and Hawlucha. The addition of Trick allows Magearna to cripple switchins such as Amoonguss and Tangrowth, while other moves can be customized based on the team. A major point of contention for this set is how it forces the opponent to play. When first sent out, it can be extremely difficult to tell if Magearna is Specs, Scarf, Calm Mind, or another set, baiting in your opponent's answer on a Volt Switch or Trick.

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 192 HP / 180 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind / other attacks
- Pain Split
- Flash Cannon / Fleur Cannon / Thunderbolt / Volt Switch
- Aura Sphere / Fleur Cannon / Thunderbolt / Volt Switch

This set provides more longevity to the SGCM set listed above, and functions as a useful wincon on teams from stall to Bulky Offense. The EV spread here isn't optimal but just provides an idea of what magearna can be tailored to do. Calm mind + Pain split can last seemingly forever, even shrugging off chip by getting off a Pain Split. The moves, as with other sets, are customizable based on the team. Pain Split + 3 Attacks can also be used with a more defensive spread to fulfill more of a pivot role. While Pain Split is by no means an excellent option for recovery, its utility is not to be underestimated.

Magearna @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 128 Def / 132 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 21 Spe
- Fleur Cannon
- Explosion
- Encore
- Volt Switch

Magearna @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 212 SpD / 44 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Trick
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Iron Head

Magearna @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 76 SpA / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Pain Split
- Encore
- Volt Switch

Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Iron Head
- Aura Sphere

While nowhere near as common or consistent as others listed above, sets such as these can fill a hole on specific teams or provide an interesting gimmick or utility purpose. Sets like Assault Vest and Rocky Helmet can be useful defensive pivots, while Toxic Orb and other sets can bait in "answers" such as Rotom-H to be crippled. While much more fringe, these sets are interesting to toy around with.

:ss/Rotom-heat: :ss/Toxapex: :ss/mantine: :ss/Marowak-Alola: :ss/Amoonguss: :ss/Tangrowth: :ss/ferrothorn: :ss/Chansey: :ss/Jirachi:
Here are listed some of the potential answers and pivots to various Magearna sets. However, most of these struggle to provide reliable counterplay. Rotom-Heat I've touched on some, but the lack of reliable recovery leaves it prone to getting worn down throughout the match, and it has difficulty dealing with an already boosted Magearna. Toxapex and Mantine similarly struggle if Magearna opts to run an Electric move. Marowak suffers from the same fate as Rotom but worse; it has no real form of recovery, and only serves to force Magearna out, as with some investment, Mag can easily outspeed. Amoonguss and Tangrowth both dislike Specs Flash cannon, and are heavily hindered by being tricked a Scarf/Specs. Ferrothorn can be muscled past with fighting coverage on Specs/setup. Chansey can be Tricked, pivoted on, and takes a sizeable chunk from Specs Focus blast, which can 2hko with a bit of chip. Jirachi can be a reliable answer to Specs/Scarf, but dislikes getting tricked. It also baits in Urshifu, which can hit through Protect with Wicked blow.

:ss/Marowak-Alola: (Urshifu) :ss/Slowbro:
These three are a few example partners for Magearna. Marowak-A appreciates Magearna's ability to deal with Ghost resists such as Mandibuzz, while Magearna likes the Fire/Fairy resist and blanket answer to opposing Magearna, as well as the chip provided on various other mons. Urshifu loves being in on many of Magearna's checks, and a well-timed volt switch allows for an excellent opportunity to break with CC/Wicked Blow. Finally, Slowbro can pivot in and provide a slow teleport into Magearna, allowing it to fulfill its role without taking chip. Many more good pairings exist, such as Dragapult, Azumarill, and Zeraora, all of which can be a pain for opposing teams.

In conclusion, Magearna is extremely versatile and able to fulfill a number of roles, from offensive breaker to defensive pivot. The caution that must be exercised by your opponent until the full set is revealed and Magearna's ability to break through potential answers is why I believe Magearna is too much for the current metagame. Even commonly used switchins to choiced sets such as Chansey and Rotom-Heat can be crippled and worn down easily, and setup sets can muscle past practically every defensive answer. Unlike Volcarona, which sometimes does require similar aggression, Magearna's movepool and number of viable sets means that counterplay is limited. If a suspect comes, I will definitely be voting ban.
 
Toxtricity certainly remains an interesting threat in the metagame that I really haven't heard about at all. It's Electric/Poison stab coverage looks great in a metagame with Azumarill, Clefable, Corviknight, Mandibuzz, Peliper/Rain, Rillaboom, Slowbro, Tangrowth, Togekiss, Toxapex, Urshifu-RS, etc. running around. Additionally, people are moving away from SpDef sets for more physical investment

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chansey, Ferrothorn, and AV Mage are the only mons in the tier that don't get 2HKOd by this thing at +1 or with Specs

The only mons that wall it are terrified of things like Cinderace and Urshifu making dominant offensive pokemon great partners with it, and a Specs set can generate Volt Switch momentum making VoltTurn core. Toxtricity breaks down common cores like Mandi/Pex that would otherwise the physical attackers don't appreciate.

Rillaboom's presence also helps Toxtricity's ground weakness a bit
 
Toxtricity certainly remains an interesting threat in the metagame that I really haven't heard about at all. It's Electric/Poison stab coverage looks great in a metagame with Azumarill, Clefable, Corviknight, Mandibuzz, Peliper/Rain, Rillaboom, Slowbro, Tangrowth, Togekiss, Toxapex, Urshifu-RS, etc. running around. Additionally, people are moving away from SpDef sets for more physical investment

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chansey, Ferrothorn, and AV Mage are the only mons in the tier that don't get 2HKOd by this thing at +1 or with Specs

The only mons that wall it are terrified of things like Cinderace and Urshifu making dominant offensive pokemon great partners with it, and a Specs set can generate Volt Switch momentum making VoltTurn core. Toxtricity breaks down common cores like Mandi/Pex that would otherwise the physical attackers don't appreciate.
Specs :Toxtricity: is quite hard to use, considering the 3 main moves it uses (STAB + Boomburst) all have a type they can't hit, if you make a wrong prediction then you're going to be giving up momentum, :Toxtricity: doesn't have a very good speed stat so it's going to be revenge killed by a lot of pokemon (:Excadrill:, Zen Headbutt :Cinderace:, :Alakazam:, :Volcarona:) and it doesn't do well against priorty.

I can see it being used but it can't just be slapped onto a team to cover all the mons you listed.

Throat Spray has the same speed problem but it also lacks initial power and if it switches out it loses the boost.
 

aim

pokeaimMD
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alright bro's im back as OUTL. My first action is to unban Melmetal and re suspect Galarian Darmanitan. After extensive testing I have deemed both not ban worthy as it is harder to deal with Dracovish than it is to deal with Melmetal. My next step is to allow blaze Blaziken in RU. it does not matter that it isn't in the game. My last step is to put a png over the blank box that is Urshifu. after many hours of hard work I found the solution... google.com gave me a urshifu png. i look forward to moving forward with the community
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
I have a little time between so I’m gonna drop this. Urshifu is fucking broken as hell, we all know it. HOWEVER most of you are pretty horrendous in using it and I think that's because of how broken the dark one is. that being said, I'd like to highlight even more how fuckubng good pangoro is and how urshifu even highlights that even further. remember that you have scrappy and SD and gunk shot, so you actually kill and have nearly the same attack. I cannot tell you how many games pangoro just ran fucking game on where ur urshifus would just not (your choiced ones) and with the extreme and terrible prevalance with stall before mage is banned, pangoro just goes in.


Heres a recent game I had- if you want more just ask, I have A LOT - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1146917856-l25kt8xe5r0h1al6pm12ph3atg8rdaopw
but this is pretty indicative of how it goes really. teams just drop to it and mandibuzz is setup bait. BB cannot kill
 

Do you think Hatterene can have a role in OU, as a wallbreaker?

Hatterene @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Draining Kiss
- Mystical Fire

Magic Bounce allows her to easily setup on mons like Chansey, Clefable, Mandibuzz, Pex, Kommo-O and non Iron Head Corviknight and she be immune to phazing (thanks to the fairy type, as well). Also, she has access to Draining Kiss, keeping her alive and Mystical Fire hits steel types like Ferrothorn

With Max hp and 244 Def bold, she can take heavy hits from common threats and fight back, recovering with draining kiss, or even killing with psychic or mystical fire.
318 hp means that Chansey would need 4 seismic tosses to kill her and 12 speed allows her to outspeed Amoonguss, in case of Clear Smog. She will always outspeed Ferro

Pros:
Magic Bounce is a great ability for a wallbreaker, as it lets the mon be immune to status and phazing
Access Draining Kiss means she is not dependant to wishport
136 base spatk hits hard, even at +0
102 spdef is not bad
95 def actually allows her to survive one or two heavy hits, like banded Wicked Blow, life orb Steel Wing and Iron Head from Excadrill
She beats most walls like Chansey, non CM Clef, Ferro, Kommo-o and Pex
Sweepers like Alakazam, Hydreigon, Kyurem, Urshifu and other fighting types could have some problems because of calm mind/draining kiss

Cons:
Her hp is too damn low (base 57)
She is really, really slow. So slow that Alowak will always outspeed her and always do an OHKO with poltergeist
Dragapult specs is not a rarity and Shadow Ball is always OHKO
Faster steel types like Jirachi and Aegislash can switch into a psychic or draining kiss and fight back with iron head/shadow ball
Rillaboom is faster (as like as 99% of the metagame) and can do an OHKO with Wood Hammer
Mimikyu is rare, but it has a free turn thanks to disguise
Azumarill hits very hard with anything and does not fear any unboosted move from Hat
Magearna laughs on her 100% of the time
 
After reviewing other council's posts in other tiers (UU-PU), I've come to see that my last post was proven wrong & I'm glad it was because this tier is way too offensively oriented. HO is hugely broken.

UU-PU tiers have had huge Ban Lists from time to time over the years and I have often wondered how they came to the conclusion to do all this so fast. OU goes a lot slower, with the exceptions of obvious broken mons like Mewtwo or Zacian. Well, these tiers just don't care how big their banlist is, they want to make sure the meta is as healthy as it can get. UU-PU will also ban mons that are not necessarily broken but, are just making a certain playstyle too overwhelming or if there are too many mons that overwhelm teambuilding. This is something that OU hasn't done this gen (I won't go into other gens & I am not encouraging others too either).

A way to solve this Hyper Offense problem in this tier is to gather information on top threats from the community & see which ones are causing the most problems then, ban them. This is something the OU council could take into consideration since, this style of banning has worked really well for other tiers and this gen seems to be getting worse & worse as game freak introduces more offensive mons (& Hidden Abilities like with the starters) with each DLC.

In my opinion, Urshifu-Dark, Zeraora, Magearna, Rillaboom, Cinderace and Hawlucha should be taken in to consideration for quick banning. Each of these mons have seen great use in tours and ladder. Each mon put a massive amount of strain on defensive and offensive cores while, allowing other mons to sweep with pure ease, making counterplay either non-existent or shallow.

Zeraora has great speed, decent bulk & power and is capable of running a myriad of sets that requires careful scouting in order to avoid instant KOs in early games. Not only that, but it can gain even more power from team mates to take on it's walls or checks. Such as Rillaboom's grassy terrain boosting Zeraora's Grass Knot to have a chance to OHKO Hippowdon while also, allowing Zeraora to tank Hippowdon's earthquake. Since Zeraora is the fastest unboosted mon in the tier, psychic terrain from Indeedee allows it to avoid strong priority attacks. When paired up with Alakazam on a psychic terrain team, they can both overwhelm defensive cores with pure ease and forcing offense teams to rely on Choice Scarf mons to check them.
TLDR: Zeraora is too fast, too versatile and works way too well with other mons to overwhelm any team.

Urshifu-Dark has been talked about a lot recently so, I won't go too much on this mon. The way how it works so well with other physical attackers and Magearna can be super overwhelming for any team. The same thing goes for Magearna, people (including me) have already talked about this mon a lot.

Rillaboom's Grassy Slide is honestly too strong of a priority move that is coming off a strong attack stat. But once more, having access to U-Turn to go out into another powerful breaker to take on it's walls or checks is very tough to deal with for any team.

Cinderace's ability Libero & heavy-duty boots. That's pretty much it. Not much needs to be said about Hawlucha either.

Now to close this all up: getting rid of these mons open up healthier counterplay against Hyper Offense & Bulky Offense teams. True, on their own they may not be broken but, counterplay and a healthy meta has more priority. This will definitely dismantle powerful offensive cores and may help us get out of the rock-paper-scissor team battling.

I would really enjoy hearing other people's opinions on anything that I've written in this post.
 
HO is hugely broken.
Statements like this are dangerous for tiering and gloss over legitimate issues. As I tried to outline in my previous post, HO is not the issue; a select few mons are. Speaking from experience, hyper offense is by no means overwhelming. Based on matchup and teambuilding, certain matchups can prove difficult, but as a whole, offense is not in an abhorrently overbearing state.

A way to solve this Hyper Offense problem in this tier is to gather information on top threats from the community & see which ones are causing the most problems then, ban them. This is something the OU council could take into consideration since, this style of banning has worked really well for other tiers and this gen seems to be getting worse & worse as game freak introduces more offensive mons (& Hidden Abilities like with the starters) with each DLC.
In a vacuum, this would be a healthy way to run the metagame. However, with the constant dropping of DLCs, (especially pre-DLC) it makes little sense to unban and reban things that would see a huge shift in viability and usage as new tools became available, such as Clefable. If overzealous bans are implemented, the meta would shift in ways that are difficult to predict.

Your argument about Zera's combination with different terrains makes sense on paper, but in reality, Zera still struggles to put in as much work as you suggest. Bulky grasses are one thing that even Psychic terrain can't really help with. The priority aspect isn't enough to make Zera banworthy either. This alludes to the main issue with Zeraora; while it can beat most things on paper, it struggles in practice due to middling offensive stats.
Now to close this all up: getting rid of these mons open up healthier counterplay against Hyper Offense & Bulky Offense teams. True, on their own they may not be broken but, counterplay and a healthy meta has more priority. This will definitely dismantle powerful offensive cores and may help us get out of the rock-paper-scissor team battling.
Arguments like this are dangerous. The OU metagame is not in a state that resembles that of UU in the past week or NatDex post-DLC1 where a large slate of quickbans is necessary. Falling into that trap risks banning mons with counterplay for no discernible reason once real threats are removed. Balance/stall is by no means bad right now- there are just a few offensive threats that might be a bit too much.
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
After reviewing other council's posts in other tiers (UU-PU), I've come to see that my last post was proven wrong & I'm glad it was because this tier is way too offensively oriented. HO is hugely broken.

UU-PU tiers have had huge Ban Lists from time to time over the years and I have often wondered how they came to the conclusion to do all this so fast. OU goes a lot slower, with the exceptions of obvious broken mons like Mewtwo or Zacian. Well, these tiers just don't care how big their banlist is, they want to make sure the meta is as healthy as it can get. UU-PU will also ban mons that are not necessarily broken but, are just making a certain playstyle too overwhelming or if there are too many mons that overwhelm teambuilding. This is something that OU hasn't done this gen (I won't go into other gens & I am not encouraging others too either).

A way to solve this Hyper Offense problem in this tier is to gather information on top threats from the community & see which ones are causing the most problems then, ban them. This is something the OU council could take into consideration since, this style of banning has worked really well for other tiers and this gen seems to be getting worse & worse as game freak introduces more offensive mons (& Hidden Abilities like with the starters) with each DLC.

In my opinion, Urshifu-Dark, Zeraora, Magearna, Rillaboom, Cinderace and Hawlucha should be taken in to consideration for quick banning. Each of these mons have seen great use in tours and ladder. Each mon put a massive amount of strain on defensive and offensive cores while, allowing other mons to sweep with pure ease, making counterplay either non-existent or shallow.

Zeraora has great speed, decent bulk & power and is capable of running a myriad of sets that requires careful scouting in order to avoid instant KOs in early games. Not only that, but it can gain even more power from team mates to take on it's walls or checks. Such as Rillaboom's grassy terrain boosting Zeraora's Grass Knot to have a chance to OHKO Hippowdon while also, allowing Zeraora to tank Hippowdon's earthquake. Since Zeraora is the fastest unboosted mon in the tier, psychic terrain from Indeedee allows it to avoid strong priority attacks. When paired up with Alakazam on a psychic terrain team, they can both overwhelm defensive cores with pure ease and forcing offense teams to rely on Choice Scarf mons to check them.
TLDR: Zeraora is too fast, too versatile and works way too well with other mons to overwhelm any team.

Urshifu-Dark has been talked about a lot recently so, I won't go too much on this mon. The way how it works so well with other physical attackers and Magearna can be super overwhelming for any team. The same thing goes for Magearna, people (including me) have already talked about this mon a lot.

Rillaboom's Grassy Slide is honestly too strong of a priority move that is coming off a strong attack stat. But once more, having access to U-Turn to go out into another powerful breaker to take on it's walls or checks is very tough to deal with for any team.

Cinderace's ability Libero & heavy-duty boots. That's pretty much it. Not much needs to be said about Hawlucha either.

Now to close this all up: getting rid of these mons open up healthier counterplay against Hyper Offense & Bulky Offense teams. True, on their own they may not be broken but, counterplay and a healthy meta has more priority. This will definitely dismantle powerful offensive cores and may help us get out of the rock-paper-scissor team battling.

I would really enjoy hearing other people's opinions on anything that I've written in this post.

cinderace and rillaboom should absolutely be banned over the obvious mage and ushifu. the absolute bullshit Ive been allowed to do ( I use them both) and on the flip side had to pull is just outrageous. many games really just come down to - everything left dies to grassy gide, which does a incredibly dumb amount. cinderace's libero allows for strats that really shouldnt exist and do just because it can change it's typing at will and get that extra dmaage boosts. in higher level of plays this is abused. I know I abuse the absolute fuck out of it.

now HO is definite;y not broken, but the tier is absolutely out of control. many things need to change before there can be any progress. on top of everything you named minus zeraora - which mind you is a non threat - we should get rid of volcarona as well
 

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The problem with all of these pointing fingers at random offensive Pokemon, I feel, is that the accusations being dished out strictly look at the positive matchups.

We shouldn't be throwing accusations toward particular Pokemon just because they have certain good matchups, because, in doing so, we neglect what exactly has not made them thrive as much as they hypothetically should. Zeraora, Volcarona, and Rillaboom are probably the best examples that have been mentioned thus far. While these are all good Pokemon, calling them overbearing is frankly dismissive of the fact that they all have a couple of crippling flaws that make it so they don't have a stranglehold on the metagame. In Zera's case: its middling offenses and the existence of Tangrowth + Amoonguss. Volcarona's case: its less than ideal dual STABs and difficulty with Special walls. Rillaboom's case: Mandibuzz's and other natural Grass resists' prevalence. They all three are very readily checkable, with many natural means of counterplay in the tier. Calling them the issues and trying to ban them because on paper are really good is really dangerous for the tier and doesn't at all tackle the crux of the problem, since they alone have pretty noteworthy issues halting their ability to be broken. Having a huge wave of bans in a tier that doesn't really need it is, as has been stated earlier, really dangerous, too.

I believe the problem at the moment comes in the form of how these Pokemon are enabled to have their positive matchups emphasized. I think it's certainly undeniable that Offense certainly is issue right now, but trying to blanket ban a bunch of Pokemon blindly just because they're offensive is not at all a responsible nor necessary decision. Instead, it's important that we dive a bit deeper into the issue and think about why offense has been so good. And, the answer comes in the form of one Pokemon: Urshifu Single Strike.



Urshifu is, on paper, a pretty straight forward Pokemon, which you can see my breakdown of here. If you're too lazy to read it, I said that I felt that while it was extremely strong, that it had counterplay and while it would be top tier, it wouldn't be necessarily broken. I still stand by that statement, even after getting even more experience with it. Though, it's undeniable that its service to offense is beyond invaluable, and is most likely the problematic factor of it in the tier. The combination of Wicked Blow and CC is enough to blow away unresisted cores, with Sucker Punch/U-Turn and Poison Jab to provide it with additional utility and useful coverage respectively to combat resistances. I don't need to tell you guys what makes it so good, because you guys already know that this thing is a boon in the tier. However, while it's commonly talked about as to how strong it is, most people don't seem to bring up its actual impact in the game, even with preparation. Every time it switches in, it is capable of blowing huge holes in Balance/Stall alike, and protecting to waste Wicked Blow PP or to scout it is not possible due to Unseen Fist. Consequentially, even with an Urshifu check, the Urshifu player is readily able to force 50/50s with predictions, U-Turn, and Sucker Punch; usually, this is favorable for the Urshifu player due to how good Wicked Blow actually is as a midground move anyway. The result of this is that the Urshifu player will always do some kind of relevant, important damage. Every time you have an Urshifu, it will guaranteed do work, which can give offensive Pokemon like Volcarona, Alakazam, Zeraora, Cinderace, or Rillaboom the ease to clean up the loose ends with their own great characteristics.

The problem with Urshifu is how good it is at wallbreaking, not cleaning. You can knock it out and revenge it fairly easily, but by that point, it's usually done its job, and doing work with another offensive Pokemon of your choice is not difficult whatsoever. As such, it synergizes amazingly with these Pokemon to make what I've coined a "Wicked Core", which consists of Urshifu + your choices of offensive mons, since Urshifu is able to blow necessary holes in natural offensive checks extremely well and enable offensive Pokemon to clean much more effectively than they would be able to otherwise. The reason I put so much emphasis on positive matchups for the previous accusations, is because they legitimately are emphasized with Urshifu's raw breaking power. I feel some people are getting confused with what exactly is making these Pokemon good at doing what they need to do just because of how good Offense is at the moment, and I'm certain it's because of how good Urshifu is at opening up those winning opportunities as stated before.

In short: my overall thoughts of this dilemma are that while Offense is amazing right now, it's really Urshifu that enables it since it is so great at breaking apart Pokemon for its offensive teammates that they otherwise struggle with. While it alone isn't broken, what it does for offense is what is overbearing for the tier.
 
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cinderace and rillaboom should absolutely be banned over the obvious mage and ushifu. the absolute bullshit Ive been allowed to do ( I use them both) and on the flip side had to pull is just outrageous. many games really just come down to - everything left dies to grassy gide, which does a incredibly dumb amount. cinderace's libero allows for strats that really shouldnt exist and do just because it can change it's typing at will and get that extra dmaage boosts. in higher level of plays this is abused. I know I abuse the absolute fuck out of it.

now HO is definite;y not broken, but the tier is absolutely out of control. many things need to change before there can be any progress. on top of everything you named minus zeraora - which mind you is a non threat - we should get rid of volcarona as well
Rilla has many checks and counters to its name, Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Mandibuzz, Cinderace, Togekiss, Dragapult, Volcarona, Heattom, Ferro, Scizor, Magearna. Rilla also faces a 4mss when picking coverage (High Horsepower, Drain Punch, Superpower, Acrobatics, etc) meaning it will always miss a target to hit.

Cinderace other than Mag and Urshifu is the most suspectable mon rn. The issue with Cinderace is that it lacks consistent counterplay. Bro/Kommo/Quag/Hippo come to mind for Cinder counters, however they aren’t as consistent as they are on paper. In practice Cinderace can blow past them after chip. Bro takes a heavy blow from U-Turn especially if Banded. Even Quag has a chance of getting 2HKOd by HJK after rocks.
252+ Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
BU Cinder is probably one of it’s most disgusting sets. Being able to break past Bro with Sucker Punch or even Gunk Shot is crazy. Unlike something like Rilla you don’t need to think as hard on what coverage you’ll need. Pyro/Zen/U-Turn/Sucker or HJK is already enough to threaten most of the metagame. It can even run niche options like Electro Ball to blow past Pex and Bro if so desired. Cinder is not on the level of brainless Urshifu and Mag but it might become problematic when it just becomes bring Bro or Hippo or die.

Volcarona is a mon that can either obliterate teams or fall flat in mid/late game. Volc has a healthy amount of checks and counters. Azumarill can take any hit from Volc at +1 (Giga Drain Volc is trash) and retaliate with Aqua Jet or Liquidation, Cinderace and Wak can take a hit and blow it back with Pyro Ball/Flare Blitz/Poltergeist, Mandibuzz with enough investment can live a Bug Buzz or Fire Blast and kill it with Brave Bird, SpD Pex can constantly Haze and click Recover against it, Chansey and Mantine can hard wall Volc and use it for rocks/defog/teleport/etc, and the goat himself Rhyperior can take a hit and kill it with Stone Edge. HO is great rn but it isn’t broken in at itself. The only mons worth suspecting rn is Urshifu, Mag, and maybe Cinder
 
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