ah yeah, the important thing is that the +SpDef prevents it from OHKOing. Also, it can WoW and prevent the 2HKO, so it doesn't really matterSo maybe the +SpDef would be the important factor here for you but since Lucha isn't grounded Zen Headbutt isn't going to ever beat Acro in terms of power - it doesn't benefit from Psychic Terrain other than by stopping priority
Chandelure vs Pex calcs:I think you'd generally want to run speed EVs. There isn't a lot in the 80 base range but you still want to beat stuff like Scizor, Magnezone, Kommo etc.
Probably Fire Blast or Overheat over Psychic. Psychic isn't even a guaranteed OHKO on Pex and besides KommoO there aren't really any other targets. You could even drop Psychic for CM to put pressure on defensive teams post Trick.
Anyway Chandelure is neat. It's one of those things that will never be OU but every time you see them in team preview you think "damn I'm really weak to this".
Honestly after rethinking and playing a bit more I definitely believe that I have been undervaluing Sludge Bomb. Something that is kind of niche but worth noting re the SpA investment I posted beforehand actually gives you a slightly stronger 1vs1 matchup vs the more common 252/160/96+ spread that has been floating around (I believe this is to emergency check Lucha whilst also avoiding 2hko from Urshifu among other things?)I think bomb is important purely for the fairy types. Azu after a belly drum still chips you down, even with huge power gone. It also lets weezing handle clefable better.
I've been getting decent use out of defog, but toxic is also a good option. It's ability lets it deny clef magic guard, so it can poison or burn it and wear it down.
On that note, would it be worth running taunt on weezing with some speed to outpace clef? Burn it with will-o-wisp, wear it down with sludge, and taunt to prevent recovery/calm mind.
This makes a lot of sense, I'd noticed how useful the poison chance on Sludge bomb was vs Clef but beyond that utilizing T.Spikes to force in Mandi, Rotom-H etc seems really solid if you have a consistent answer to Pex and whilst you're annoyed by Corv it's declining usage plus the fact that you sit on all of it's coverage moves for days means you can bully it with Pain Split and predict the U-Turns to try and nail something with Toxic. I think following on from the Grassy Terrain concept given that Weezing-Galars entire purpose is to essentially simplify gamestates in 1vs1 scenarios having a layer of T.Spike up means you're always coming out ahead if you're negating things like Regenerator.Yeah so usually people won't run Tspikes + Toxic because it's sort of a waste to have both - except for the fact that HDB are pretty common, and then combined with the fact that many popular defoggers are poison weak, and then factor in Magic Guard, Levitate, and other abilities, and TS aren't usually going to win you games. This strategy was a meme sometime last gen basically for the same reasons - Tspikes for instance really put a timer on offensive teams and bulky cores that are weak to them (e.g. Tangrowth) but they're so easy to remove that running Toxic can help chip down defoggers and force opponents into awkward switches they might not otherwise want to make.
Yeah this is a very good point that I didn't mention. I think in these matchups given that Indeedee partners are often Alakazam or Volcarona in addition to Lucha Weezing is pretty much dead weight and won't be doing much. If anything that's perhaps another point in favour of running Weezing alongside a competing terrain.I’ve been running Psychic Seed Hawlucha, so you're not necessarily guaranteed to get an OHKO. I can do the calcs later but I think this is a reasonable set that shouldn’t be overlooked as it pairs well with Psychic spam thanks to it having a favorable matchup against the Dark and Steel types (except Corviknight)
Facts tho I'm expecting an increase in Galar Weezing usage now due to added Utility and I feel that will also help it out on doubles.Something also worth noting is that weezing got corrosive gas via the DLC, which lets it remove items.
Think about that for a second; weezing can now remove held items. If you dont need it to defog, it might be worth trying out! Any mon that could potentially switch into weezing now has to worry about losing its item. Heavy duty boots cinder/volc, eviolite chansey, leftovers corv, rocky helmet ferrothorn, black sludge pex, etc.
its not a hard counter if it gets 2HKO'd by poison jab.I hear people saying Urshifu lacks hard counters but what about clefable with max defense and HP EVs and a calm nature? OHKOs urshifu with moonblast and can survive two wicked blows. Poison jab will two hit KO but urshifu is usually banded. And if it's not you'll still most likely take wicked blow on the switch in - and the unbanded poison jab won't kill the clefable.
Adding on to what the guy above me said, Clefable doesn't even run 252 HP / 252 Def with aI hear people saying Urshifu lacks hard counters but what about clefable with max defense and HP EVs and a calm nature? OHKOs urshifu with moonblast and can survive two wicked blows. Poison jab will two hit KO but urshifu is usually banded. And if it's not you'll still most likely take wicked blow on the switch in - and the unbanded poison jab won't kill the clefable.
Tbf, I put in the wrong nature in the calculator. With Clefable's nature as bold, banded urshifu has only a 4% chance of two hit KOing clefable with poison jab.its not a hard counter if it gets 2HKO'd by poison jab.
Not sure what you mean. Bold is the single most common nature for clefable according to pikalytics. https://www.pikalytics.com/pokedex/gen8ou/clefableAdding on to what the guy above me said, Clefable doesn't even run 252 HP / 252 Def with a
CalmBold nature (why Calm if you're running PhysDef spreads? - Calm boosts SpDef, Bold boosts Def.) that often. If it's going to run that just to check something it's likely not going to check, what's the point of even running Max Defense Clefable in the first place? You're likely better off running Max SpDef Clefable to check other things and not Urushifu-SS.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryTbf, I put in the wrong nature in the calculator. With Clefable's nature as bold, banded urshifu has only a 4% chance of two hit KOing clefable with poison jab.
Exactly. If a suspect/ban on Urshifu does come, it will be due to the strain it puts on building (requiring the core listed above, or something similar). But with all the talk about bans circulating, there's another mon that's had surprisingly little discussion in this thread recently: Magearna.The best way to handle darkshifu is by using max phys def toxapex/tangrowth to scout the cb lock then pivot into the appropriate resist like clefable, mandibuzz, keep pex in, w/e. Most people know this already and have built accordingly, and darkshifu has to make several correct guesses to break through these cores, after which u may not have much pp left to actually break with bc wicked blow/cc both only have 8 pp.
Specs is quite hard to use, considering the 3 main moves it uses (STAB + Boomburst) all have a type they can't hit, if you make a wrong prediction then you're going to be giving up momentum, doesn't have a very good speed stat so it's going to be revenge killed by a lot of pokemon (, Zen Headbutt , , ) and it doesn't do well against priorty.Toxtricity certainly remains an interesting threat in the metagame that I really haven't heard about at all. It's Electric/Poison stab coverage looks great in a metagame with Azumarill, Clefable, Corviknight, Mandibuzz, Peliper/Rain, Rillaboom, Slowbro, Tangrowth, Togekiss, Toxapex, Urshifu-RS, etc. running around. Additionally, people are moving away from SpDef sets for more physical investment
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chansey, Ferrothorn, and AV Mage are the only mons in the tier that don't get 2HKOd by this thing at +1 or with Specs
The only mons that wall it are terrified of things like Cinderace and Urshifu making dominant offensive pokemon great partners with it, and a Specs set can generate Volt Switch momentum making VoltTurn core. Toxtricity breaks down common cores like Mandi/Pex that would otherwise the physical attackers don't appreciate.
Statements like this are dangerous for tiering and gloss over legitimate issues. As I tried to outline in my previous post, HO is not the issue; a select few mons are. Speaking from experience, hyper offense is by no means overwhelming. Based on matchup and teambuilding, certain matchups can prove difficult, but as a whole, offense is not in an abhorrently overbearing state.HO is hugely broken.
In a vacuum, this would be a healthy way to run the metagame. However, with the constant dropping of DLCs, (especially pre-DLC) it makes little sense to unban and reban things that would see a huge shift in viability and usage as new tools became available, such as Clefable. If overzealous bans are implemented, the meta would shift in ways that are difficult to predict.A way to solve this Hyper Offense problem in this tier is to gather information on top threats from the community & see which ones are causing the most problems then, ban them. This is something the OU council could take into consideration since, this style of banning has worked really well for other tiers and this gen seems to be getting worse & worse as game freak introduces more offensive mons (& Hidden Abilities like with the starters) with each DLC.
Arguments like this are dangerous. The OU metagame is not in a state that resembles that of UU in the past week or NatDex post-DLC1 where a large slate of quickbans is necessary. Falling into that trap risks banning mons with counterplay for no discernible reason once real threats are removed. Balance/stall is by no means bad right now- there are just a few offensive threats that might be a bit too much.Now to close this all up: getting rid of these mons open up healthier counterplay against Hyper Offense & Bulky Offense teams. True, on their own they may not be broken but, counterplay and a healthy meta has more priority. This will definitely dismantle powerful offensive cores and may help us get out of the rock-paper-scissor team battling.
After reviewing other council's posts in other tiers (UU-PU), I've come to see that my last post was proven wrong & I'm glad it was because this tier is way too offensively oriented. HO is hugely broken.
UU-PU tiers have had huge Ban Lists from time to time over the years and I have often wondered how they came to the conclusion to do all this so fast. OU goes a lot slower, with the exceptions of obvious broken mons like Mewtwo or Zacian. Well, these tiers just don't care how big their banlist is, they want to make sure the meta is as healthy as it can get. UU-PU will also ban mons that are not necessarily broken but, are just making a certain playstyle too overwhelming or if there are too many mons that overwhelm teambuilding. This is something that OU hasn't done this gen (I won't go into other gens & I am not encouraging others too either).
A way to solve this Hyper Offense problem in this tier is to gather information on top threats from the community & see which ones are causing the most problems then, ban them. This is something the OU council could take into consideration since, this style of banning has worked really well for other tiers and this gen seems to be getting worse & worse as game freak introduces more offensive mons (& Hidden Abilities like with the starters) with each DLC.
In my opinion, Urshifu-Dark, Zeraora, Magearna, Rillaboom, Cinderace and Hawlucha should be taken in to consideration for quick banning. Each of these mons have seen great use in tours and ladder. Each mon put a massive amount of strain on defensive and offensive cores while, allowing other mons to sweep with pure ease, making counterplay either non-existent or shallow.
Zeraora has great speed, decent bulk & power and is capable of running a myriad of sets that requires careful scouting in order to avoid instant KOs in early games. Not only that, but it can gain even more power from team mates to take on it's walls or checks. Such as Rillaboom's grassy terrain boosting Zeraora's Grass Knot to have a chance to OHKO Hippowdon while also, allowing Zeraora to tank Hippowdon's earthquake. Since Zeraora is the fastest unboosted mon in the tier, psychic terrain from Indeedee allows it to avoid strong priority attacks. When paired up with Alakazam on a psychic terrain team, they can both overwhelm defensive cores with pure ease and forcing offense teams to rely on Choice Scarf mons to check them.
TLDR: Zeraora is too fast, too versatile and works way too well with other mons to overwhelm any team.
Urshifu-Dark has been talked about a lot recently so, I won't go too much on this mon. The way how it works so well with other physical attackers and Magearna can be super overwhelming for any team. The same thing goes for Magearna, people (including me) have already talked about this mon a lot.
Rillaboom's Grassy Slide is honestly too strong of a priority move that is coming off a strong attack stat. But once more, having access to U-Turn to go out into another powerful breaker to take on it's walls or checks is very tough to deal with for any team.
Cinderace's ability Libero & heavy-duty boots. That's pretty much it. Not much needs to be said about Hawlucha either.
Now to close this all up: getting rid of these mons open up healthier counterplay against Hyper Offense & Bulky Offense teams. True, on their own they may not be broken but, counterplay and a healthy meta has more priority. This will definitely dismantle powerful offensive cores and may help us get out of the rock-paper-scissor team battling.
I would really enjoy hearing other people's opinions on anything that I've written in this post.
Rilla has many checks and counters to its name, Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Mandibuzz, Cinderace, Togekiss, Dragapult, Volcarona, Heattom, Ferro, Scizor, Magearna. Rilla also faces a 4mss when picking coverage (High Horsepower, Drain Punch, Superpower, Acrobatics, etc) meaning it will always miss a target to hit.cinderace and rillaboom should absolutely be banned over the obvious mage and ushifu. the absolute bullshit Ive been allowed to do ( I use them both) and on the flip side had to pull is just outrageous. many games really just come down to - everything left dies to grassy gide, which does a incredibly dumb amount. cinderace's libero allows for strats that really shouldnt exist and do just because it can change it's typing at will and get that extra dmaage boosts. in higher level of plays this is abused. I know I abuse the absolute fuck out of it.
now HO is definite;y not broken, but the tier is absolutely out of control. many things need to change before there can be any progress. on top of everything you named minus zeraora - which mind you is a non threat - we should get rid of volcarona as well