Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v5 (usage in post #547)

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You guys think rain is overrated rn or no?

Pelliper + modest specs Kingdra + banded Urshifu rapid strike core has been doing serious damage for me. I like to throw meteor beam starmie in there to do as much dmg possible for a late game Urshifu aqua jet sweep

I know this is a really bold take, but I don't think Volcarona is as good as it's been made out to be. It's without question that it is a pretty good set-up sweeper, and HDB are a huge boon for it. However, no matter how you slice it, Fire/Bug offensively is less effective in execution as it seems on paper, and it lacks good coverage outside of Giga Drain/Psychic. HDB, while great for ease of set-up, really makes it lack that extra oomph that it needs for its offenses. In particular, lacking Z-Crystals really hurts its sweeping game and the ability to more immediately break apart teams like in Gen 7. It only really does one thing in the metagame due to the HDB hype as well, making it pretty easy to telegraph, punish, and switch into, too. I guess it's less that Volcarona sucks, and more just the fact that teams are more naturally prepared for it, especially with Alolawak, Rotom-Heat, and Chansey being so common-place. It's unquestionably good against the uprise of defensive Grass-types and definitely is a scary set-up sweeper, but it's harder to use in execution than it's been made out to be.
yeah its one of those predictable mons that you constantly have to worry about. One or two poor choices and you can easily get swept. I still think the addition of HDB more than made up for the loss of psychium or bugium z, it essentially gets at least one free quiver dance against almost any mon. I think psychologically speaking, we sometimes underestimate Volc's natural bulk b/c we have this idea of the mon from previous generations, which would get obliterated by entry hazards.

IP edit: Merged your post from below, please try to avoid double posting
 
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Chansey: The Pink Blob is back again, ready to instill fear into the many special attackers in the tier such as Alakazam, Rotom-H, and Hydreigon, the latter two even seeing significant wane in usage. Chansey is probably going to be a huge threat and a good staple on stall teams by virtue of its monstrous HP stat and an awesome Special Defense.

Alakazam: A good speed tier and nice Special Attack, what else can I say? Unfortunately, it is one of the many Pokémon hard walled by Chansey, and its poor Defense stat leaves it prone to Knock Off users like Tangrowth and Azumarill, as well as U-turn from Cinderace and Mandibuzz. However overall, Alakazam can be an offensive powerhouse.



Yes TPP GOAT. Have a nice day :psyglad:
Can we just get something straight? Alakazam is NOT walled by chansey since chansey can only seismic toss (which it recovers off) or T wave it while alakazam can just boost to +6
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
hello y'all

since TPP asked us some questions about the post-dlc-metagame here are my thoughts.​

:marowak-alola:
I think the usage which surprised me the most is probably the usage of alola-marowak because i didnt see it as a top threat ever since the rain-staples like kingdra and also azumarill where back in business. But alola-marowak is actually a top tier pkmn with being able to have 2 nice stabs like poltergeist and flare blitz and the latter of those have no recoil-effect due to its amazing ability in rock head, which is very helpful for it in the long run.

:magearna:
magearna on the other hand didnt really surprise me as it was already a top mon last gen and with more than a handful of great sets and a good typing + amazing ability it really contributes as either an offensive or defensive pkmn in the ou-tier. its superb stats just rounds this pokémon up pretty well and i think it will continue to be at least in the top 5 of most used mons in this tier.

:azumarill: :kingdra: :barraskewda:
well azumarill and kingdra didnt surprise me tbh - sure rain-teams had their ups n downs in this gen - but with these 2 new mons added as offensive threats it really did not surprise me at all. baraskewdas usage also increased again due to flip-turn an amazing water-type momentum and rain-teams having more offensive weapons in their arsenal again.

:tangrowth: :amoonguss:
tangrowth and amoonguss where always good pokémon in past gens ou and will be in this gen ou because of regenerator and having access to plenty of other recovery-options like giga drain furthermore they have access to a lot of utility moves which is always helpful. they can also check rain-teams but they have to keep in mind that kingdra has now access to hurricane which can hurt them in a serious way, but these two pkmn add nice supportive assets to more bulky / balance-ish builds.

:rotom-heat:
the 1 thing which honestly surprised me is rotom-heats usage, i think it may see a lot more usage this month as it is still capable of checking magearna the no. 1 pokémon in the tier and it can also check amoonguss, tangrowth and magnezone especially with a pain-split-set. furthermore it can help against scizor as it 4x resist its main-stab in bullet punch. the main thing it struggles with is chanseys comeback as chansey has an insane special bulk and the strongest stab in overheat gives rotom-heat always a 2 stage drop in its special attack.

:primarina:
ya primarina on the other hand has it significantly tougher with amoonguss and tangrowth being introduced again and chansey doesnt help its usage either at this point. primarina cant break that well through these bulky grasses and it needs to have psychic to being able to bypass amoonguss at all. azumarill as a physical fairy with an immediate +6 has just a better tool to break through bulky grasses, since none of them want to take a knock off at all especially not a +6 boosted knock off (which hinders their longevity in the long run) and in rain it can dish out some serious damage.
 
1. How do you feel about the new mons that made it to OU?
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Honestly I’m impressed by how much different the meta is rn with the new additions. Mons like Urshifu and Volcarona encourage creative team building and innovation unlike Pre-Vish ban meta. You can get creative with the new mons in the tier like using Future Sight Bro with TSpike supporr and Hex Pult. None of them really feel broken except Mag. My favorite addition is ironically the most polarizing imo, Magearna. There’s so many sets to experiment with like Cm, Specs, Double Dance, SG + three attacks, the list goes on.

2. How do you feel about the pre-dlc mons that saw dips in usage?
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Long live the kings (or queens). Zeraora saw it coming as soon as Tang and Amoonguss came along. An increase in priority from Rilla, Azu, and Urshifu makes it easier to rkill the thunderstruck Lucario. Toad faces competition with the other bulky waters and more role compression in the tier makes it more difficult to splash Toad on teams. We already knew it would fall once Vish left. Kyurem has more checks in its name followed by Magearna’s and Chansey’s return makes it less of the menace it once was. Aegislash dropping to UU surprised me the most. It was hindered by the new drops sure but it was still solid in the meta. Oh well, see ya in UUBL Aegislash.

3. For both returning mons and new-dlc mons, whose usage surprised you the most?
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Kinda surprised Bro and Ferro didn’t make the top ten cut. Bro is an obsurdly good pivot due to Regen and Teleport, and Ferrothorn can 1v1 Double Dance Mag with Knock, and Leech Seed while setting hazards. I’m surprised Scizor made the cut to OU, I don’t have an exact reason why but it has something to due with the amount of more versatile steels in the tier, but Scizor is cool.

4. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?
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Nasty Plot Heat can break past most defensive cores in the meta, and with Pain Split it can 1v1 non-Toxic Chansey on top of being one of the best checks to Magearna in the tier. Defensive Heattom is also a great check to Mandi, Cinder, Rilla, and Volc (if Heattom is carrying Toxic) and Defogger. Mandibuzz is still gonna be a near necessity on BO or Balance for checking a large portion of offensive threats in the meta, Knock support is highly important for wearing down like Mag or Cinder easier.

5. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?
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^ pretend this is Rapid Strike

Rapid Strike only really has use on rain but not much else. It struggles to break past bulky waters and grasses, SS is the better choice in the meta rn. Bisharp is almost entirely outclassed by Urshifu in speed, damage, and even bulk. There’s no reason to use it over Urshifu besides Defiant shenanigans.

6. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
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Don’t sleep on the rhino. Rhyperior appreciates a decrease in Corviknight usage meaning it can run Stone Edge over Smack Down more frequently, it can also set rocks against Mandi while being a great answer to Volc, (Giga Drain Volc sucks don’t use it) and a nice check to Mag, Cinderace, and Wak. SD variants with max atk can also be run to shred through unsuspecting Tang and Bro with a Megahorn that OHKOs them after SD and rocks but your less affective at checking Volc. Lax is a thicc boi that can setup on fat teams and checks Volc, Marowak, Pult, and HJK-less Cinderace. Lax can also potentially inflict para with Body Slam, providing more overall utility. Yes Mag sucks for Hydreigon but Fire Blast can absolutely sting Mag or even OHKO it. It can setup NP on alot of staples especially Bro while outspeeding Urshifu by one point. Hydreigon also resists dark, fire, and ground making it an excellent Wak check.

7. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
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Speaking of Wak I feel like it will see less usage once players exploit it’s downsides more, and those downsides are huge. It has no reliable recovery and mediocre bulk making it a faulty Mag, Volc check. Most Wak variants are 2HKOd by Volc and Specs Mag after rocks. It’s common weakness to Dark, Ground, and Water hinder it defensively, that’s bad and all but Knock Off’s omnipresence hurts it tenfold, because of these issues it has a harder time being able to switch in, even with Defog/Spin support and less switch ins = less opportunities to break or setup rocks.

8. This one isn't entirely related to usage, but among the world cup games played so far, what has caught your attention so far?
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I haven’t seen many WC games but Mantine has truly caught my attention. I’m so glad it’s getting the recognition it deserves. I’ve said before that this mon is underrated and will have a place in the meta as a Defogger that can beat Volc, BD Azu, Rain, and Double Dance Mag.

9. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?

Teambuilding rn is much more flexible than in pre-DLC. The new mons are alot of fun to build around, the only thing restricting about teambuilding is that Mag forces more than one answer to it due to the billion different sets it can run.

10. Was this post helpful for you? I hope so :)

Yea. Thanks.
 

lydian

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Bored so I'll answer TPP's questions :)

1. How do you feel about the new mons that made it to OU?

I think Magearna and Urshifu-S are the two best Pokémon in this metagame. The former has a multitude of viable and effective sets in the current metagame, with some of them, such as Specs and Shift Gear Calm Mind, being borderline overpowered, in my opinion. Magearna still has thousands of other tricks up its sleeve though (literally), being one of the biggest headaches to account for in the teambuilder. As for the latter, Urshifu-S is a deadly wallbreaker, with Choice Band powered effective 120 BP STABs. Only Magearna with physical defense investment and the rare Galarian Weezing can claim to properly check it. Thanks to Unseen Fists, its signature ability, Urshifu-S is really hard to scout, as its attacks all go through Protect. This makes counterplay like Toxapex + Mandibuzz or another pair of resists to its STABs relatively flimsy. Other than those, Alakazam, Slowbro, Alolan Marowak, Chansey, Azumarill, Tangrowth, Amoonguss, and Volcarona seem to have carved really strong niches in the tier as well.

2. How do you feel about the pre-dlc mons that saw dips in usage?

I think Zeraora and Corviknight took the biggest hit in their usage. The former has a bit of a headache with the newly added Grass-types, especially Amoonguss which is immune to its Toxic set, which is one of the few options in its arsenal to threaten Grass-types. Clefable being inclined to use more physical defense investment for Urshifu-S also didn't help its case. Corviknight, on the other hand, struggles a lot with the presence of Mandibuzz in the tier being a much more useful choice in the current metagame, making it rather complicated to fit on teams with as much ease as Mandibuzz. Clefable also saw a considerable dip in usage, mostly for its Wish Teleport set being invalidated by Urshifu-S and by the much more offensive nature of this post-dlc metagame making it hard to fit on teams. Pre-dlc there were also very limited checks to Dragon-types like Dragapult, Kyurem, and Hydreigon, with Pokémon like Magearna and Mandibuzz alleviating some of this strain, at least for the former two, Hydreigon is still a menace but more on that later. With all of that in consideration, I think it's fair to see why Clefable's usage dwindled a bit, but it's still an excellent Pokémon in this metagame, one of the few consistent checks to Urshifu-S, and Calm Mind sets are still very much valuable to aid in breaking certain teams. Seismitoad and Kommo-o also lost a lot of steam with Zeraora not being as influent as it once was, although they still have a relative niche in the metagame.

3. For both returning mons and new-dlc mons, whose usage surprised you the most?

Probably Azumarill and Rillaboom's. Both are really good, don't get me wrong, but I didn't expect to see the latter cracking the top 10, nor the former almost making it. I think it goes to show a bit how offensive playstyles seem to be getting a bit more of the spotlight on the ladder. I was also surprised by Cinderace, I think it was much better in the pre-dlc metagame when all it had to run was Bulk Up and Zen Headbutt to be a major headache to several teams, with Slowbro being added, we're seeing very little Bulk Up and a lot more U-turn and Sucker Punch. Which to my eyes is a bit of a downgrade compared to when Cinderace was able to just have 3 moveslots and hit mostly everything it wanted to. But still it ended up in #4 in the usage stats. This one is a bit beyond me.

4. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?

I think Magearna and Urshifu-S will continue to see high usage for as long as they are in the tier, I don't think any metagame trends will be able to dwarf the power that these two possess. I also expect to see Mandibuzz keep high usage, seeing as it's one of the better glues for Balance and BO teams alike, providing invaluable support as a Dark- and Ghost-resist, as well as a check to Volcarona and Alakazam that many teams can appreciate. Toxapex also finds itself in a similar situation, being one of the best choices to most balance teams, acting as a great Fighting-resist as well as a decent way to buy time against Alolan Marowak and being able to check non Bulk Up Cinderace seamlessly.

5. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?

Mainly the Pokémon I talked about in #2, those being Zeraora and Corviknight. I think the shape of the metagame makes it a bit complicated for both them to thrive, but maybe some metagame trends down the line could shift things, who knows?

6. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?

I'd say Hippowdon and Hydreigon. The former is a pretty useful rocker and can be a headache to Mandibuzz with Toxic, or annoy HO with Whirlwind and an impenetrable bulk. Hydreigon, on the other hand, is probably the single strongest wallbreaker in the tier after Urshifu and Choice Specs Magearna, in my eyes, and can demolish almost anything standing on its way after a Nasty Plot. I also think Togekiss and Obstagoon are pretty solid and deserve more usage.

7. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?

Probably Cinderace, as I alluded to it earlier, I don't really think it's as good as its usage seems to indicate. I don't think I'd call any other Pokémon overrated though.

8. This one isn't entirely related to usage, but among the world cup games played so far, what has caught your attention so far?

We saw a lot of Mantine and a lot of Volcarona. Maybe I underestimated a bit the impact of Volcarona. And some teams definitely showed how weak to Volcarona they can be in the long run, while others compromised one of their slots with Mantine that really didn't do anything in a non-Volcarona matchup.

9. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?

Once again, I feel like Magearna and Urshifu-S are the biggest culprits. It's really tricky to build with both in mind as you often need to dedicate one or two slots for each. I'd definitely like to see how the metagame progresses after WCoP, but right now, I don't really like the strain these two put in the builder.

10. Was this post helpful for you? I hope so :)
Absolutely, thanks TPP :)
 
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I feel like Galarian Weezing does not get the respect it deserves. It's the one true Urshifu counter, it robs Azu of Huge power, it gets toxic spikes, it checks luchaboom cores, it robs Cinderace or Clef of their ability, it can annoy many common defoggers (Mantine, Pelipper, Mandi) by running TS+Toxic on one set, it can PS to heal, etc. It's obviously not perfect but its unique typing and ability are imo far above merely being "viable"
 
How do you feel about the new mons that made it to OU
The DLC mons that managed to crack OU when it comes to usage didn't really have any surprises in my eyes. Scizor might be an exception to that as I don't feel it's OU material, but with it being a fan favorite I'm not surprised to see it just making the cut. That said I think most of the additions are nice for the metagame. Before the DLC, OU was in a state where bulkier teams that valued patience reigned supreme. A pretty common expression was that chip didn't exist because of WishPort Clefable, which is a stigma that is starting to go away from what I've seen. The tier has received an influx of offensive threats that actually allow for consistent progress to be made.

2. How do you feel about the pre-dlc mons that saw dips in usage?
Corviknight seeing a drop in usage was interesting to see. I think most people assumed Corviknight would remain near the top of the metagame as Magnezone was expected to be less than great, meaning Corviknight would have nothing to worry about. The general idea on Magnezone was correct as it has been less than amazing without HP Fire, but other metatrends and emerging threats have hindered Corviknight. Even with the vaunted Flying/Steel typing it hasn't been able to continue its dominance with the likes of Urshifu, Volcarona, and offensive Magearna running around.

Also Zeraora dropping in usage came to no one's surprise. PreDLC OU was in a weird state without any strong bulky grass types, so Amoonguss and Tangrowth entering the meta at once was very tough for it. I don't know if we'll ever see another Zeraora resurgence, as more and more mons get added with the next DLC I expect Zeraora to fall faster and faster.

3. For both returning mons and new-dlc mons, whose usage surprised you the most?
Alolan Marowak stands out to me in this slot. In the first few days of the DLC meta Lightning Rod Alowak was taking the meta by storm as a solid rocker and check to Rotom-H and Magearna. However, many people have started to make the transition to Rock Head so that they can freely Flare Blitz into Mandibuzz as Fire Punch doesn't get it done. That being said I would rather pair Alowak with something like toxic Amoong, and keep the defensive utility of Lightning Rod. Since I really don't like running an Alowak that isn't bringing something to the table defensively. I think Alowak will fall off a bit over the next month or two based on how the majority of people are using it, but it has been nice to see it thriving for the time being.

4. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?
Magearna. Honestly Magearna reminds me a lot of M-Meta before it was banned in Gen 7 as every time I consider not using it I just think of the opportunity cost of using a different steel, and it's almost never worth it. I honestly expected it to have higher usage than 40%. I would honestly expect this thing to be pushing 50% in July.

5. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?
Some of the mons I mentioned before in Corviknight and Zeraora stick out for this option. Magnezone similarly sticks out as something that didn't get dominating usage that I expect to fall off even more. People spent the first few days of the post DLC meta trying to get Magnezone work as they miss their trapper, but it's just not working out up to this point. Next month I wouldn't be surprised to see both Scizor and Magnezone drop down to UU, which should make for an interesting dynamic.

6. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
My very first post in the post-dynamax meta was about how Rotom-H has incredible potential in the tier due to a lack of competition when it comes to Fire types, something I still believe to be true based on how much more splashable I think Rotom-H is than Volcarona and Rock Head Marowak. I think once the new toy syndrome wears off a bit Rotom-H will be back to being a mon near the top of usage. It's really helpful on a variety of builds, and I expect to see it do well until big bad Heatran comes back into the fold.

7. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
This is going to be a hot take but Slowbro sticks out to me. I understand that it's a bulky mon with Regen + Teleport, but I don't know. There is something about that makes me think it wont be that good for an extended amount of time. This is something I could be wrong about obviously, but I just don't seeing it being a major player in OU for the long haul this generation. I think it will be good, but not elite I guess is what I'm trying to say.

8. This one isn't entirely related to usage, but among the world cup games played so far, what has caught your attention so far?
The Greeks love their Mantine.

9. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
I think the Splashability of Magearna is something of note, as there really isn't a single team that wouldn't benefit from its presence. I also think the presence of Urshifu gives the metagame trouble, in a similar fashion as Dracovish. It requires a very restricted amount of cores for teams to be able to function effectively in the metagame. It's honestly gotten to the point I don't think Urshifu is the healthiest Pokemon for the metagame given how much trouble it gives bulkier teams that don't push bulk to the extreme. The fact it's making mons like G-weezing and Scarf Anger Point Krook acceptable on a regular basis, has made it pretty apparent to me that this isn't the best state the OU metagame could be in.
 
I feel like Galarian Weezing does not get the respect it deserves. It's the one true Urshifu counter, it robs Azu of Huge power, it gets toxic spikes, it checks luchaboom cores, it robs Cinderace or Clef of their ability, it can annoy many common defoggers (Mantine, Pelipper, Mandi) by running TS+Toxic on one set, it can PS to heal, etc. It's obviously not perfect but its unique typing and ability are imo far above merely being "viable"
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar on a critical hit: 102-121 (30.5 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
would not call this a counter since after rocks it becomes v prone to being worn down by multiple wicked blows
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar on a critical hit: 102-121 (30.5 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
would not call this a counter since after rocks it becomes v prone to being worn down by multiple wicked blows
Counterpoint:

0 SpA Weezing-Galar Strange Steam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 508-604 (148.9 - 177.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (508, 516, 520, 528, 532, 540, 544, 552, 556, 564, 568, 576, 580, 588, 592, 604)

It can't switch in too often, but it will always force urshifu to switch in return, giving it a free turn to set up tspikes or remove the rocks.
 
You guys think rain is overrated rn or no?

Pelliper + modest specs Kingdra + banded Urshifu rapid strike core has been doing serious damage for me. I like to throw meteor beam starmie in there to do as much dmg possible for a late game Urshifu aqua jet sweep
rain is imo unviable rn, fringe viable at best. for one main reason. look at the mons you just listed (Ursh-Water, Kingdra), add in the other mons that are good in rain (Skewda, Keld, Azu etc.) what do they all have in common?

stonewalled by Pex.

Pex, whose usage is higher than ever, hard stops all the rain mons that otherwise make the play style worthwhile. having tested, it’s extremely frustrating navigating around the demon. even with flip turn for momentum, regen is simply too much to overcome. a simple core like Mandi + Pex gives rain fits. with Pex now being top 10 in usage with no sign of slowing down, bringing rain is bringing is like bringing a butter knife to try and chop down an oak tree. the only rain abusers that can force pex out are Toad, who is fucking horrible, and Daunt who albeit solid at the end of the day gets RK’d and forced out by a huge swarth of the meta. these mons have another glaring weakness to a top 10 mon: Rilla.

seriously if you look at the average rain team (Pel/Swift Swim 1/Swift Swim 2/ Ferro/ Mag/filler), + 2 Rilla 6-0s going away. the existence of Grassy Glide runs antithetical to rain.

the cherry on top of this shit sundae are the regen mons, Bro, Amoong, Tang, naturally putting a stop to rain. without big boss Torn these dudes come and go with impunity. Rain is also hella weak to that demonic double dance mag set, but what isn’t.

tl dr: rain is bad and will remain bad as long as pex and rilla are top 10. sun is gas tho for all my weather heads.

if anyone else has had a more positive experience with rain i’m curious to know.
 
rain is imo unviable rn, fringe viable at best. for one main reason. look at the mons you just listed (Ursh-Water, Kingdra), add in the other mons that are good in rain (Skewda, Keld, Azu etc.) what do they all have in common?

stonewalled by Pex.

Pex, whose usage is higher than ever, hard stops all the rain mons that otherwise make the play style worthwhile. having tested, it’s extremely frustrating navigating around the demon. even with flip turn for momentum, regen is simply too much to overcome. a simple core like Mandi + Pex gives rain fits. with Pex now being top 10 in usage with no sign of slowing down, bringing rain is bringing is like bringing a butter knife to try and chop down an oak tree. the only rain abusers that can force pex out are Toad, who is fucking horrible, and Daunt who albeit solid at the end of the day gets RK’d and forced out by a huge swarth of the meta. these mons have another glaring weakness to a top 10 mon: Rilla.

seriously if you look at the average rain team (Pel/Swift Swim 1/Swift Swim 2/ Ferro/ Mag/filler), + 2 Rilla 6-0s going away. the existence of Grassy Glide runs antithetical to rain.

the cherry on top of this shit sundae are the regen mons, Bro, Amoong, Tang, naturally putting a stop to rain. without big boss Torn these dudes come and go with impunity. Rain is also hella weak to that demonic double dance mag set, but what isn’t.

tl dr: rain is bad and will remain bad as long as pex and rilla are top 10. sun is gas tho for all my weather heads.

if anyone else has had a more positive experience with rain i’m curious to know.
True, I've actually been using Starmie w/ Meteor beam to go along with them for this very reason (along w/ other reasons, like a nice surprise nuke for an unsuspecting sun setter). If Starmie is still carrying power herb against Toxapex, meteor beam into psychic will always 2HKO, while it takes minimal dmg from knock-off due to losing it's item. If pex switches out after meteor beam, at +1 sp atk not a lot of mons are going to want to switch into either hydro pump, psychic, or thunder. If you already used the power herb while going up against it, then 2 psychics will do the job as well (and every psychic does too much to recover it off). Now the downside to adding starmie on your team is that you are that much more susceptible to electric attacks and Rillaboom. Kingdra does 1v1 Rillaboom tho (both Draco and Hurricane ohko if it's modest w/ specs), tho it has to have enough health to take a grassy glide, which does quite a bit.
 

WhiteQueen

the queen bee
is a Tiering Contributorwon the 11th Official Smogon Tournamentis a Past SPL Champion
When DLC first came out, my initial thought was that Magearna, Urshifu, and Marowak were all busted and were way too overpowered.

I certainly don’t feel that way anymore.

Magearna - she’s as versatile as it gets, but so is Clefable. Versatility does not equal brokenness. There are several answers to every one of her sets—Specs, Scarf, and double boosting Stored Power—so far. Perhaps there will be other techs on the horizon as the metagame continues to develop that will someday make Magearna unbearable. Let’s wait and see.

Urshifu - this Pokemon is just fun to play with.
Come in and spam Wicked Blow. That’s all it needs to do. Resistance or not, that one move still causes a shit load of damage. If Urshifu was able to do that throughout the game, that would be the problem. The thing keeping this Pokemon from being busted is the low PP of both his STAB moves, which smart opponents can and will exploit. Defensive Tangrowth, Clefable, Toxapex, Mandibuzz, etc. can all stall out Urshifu’s PP.

Marowak - Poltergeist and Flare Blitz appeared to have the power to 2HKOs almost everything at first. Unfortunately for Marowak, Poltergeist isn’t all that scary anymore when people start realizing that it’s neutered vs. itemless Pokemon. Marowak is also ridiculously slow; opponents can speed creep to Knock Off his Thick Club, and Marowak becomes deadweight. It’s only a matter of time before he ends up in a lower tier.

Slowbro/Chansey - as anticipated, they’re both annoying as hell and certainly don’t disappoint. Teleport helps mitigate their passivity when paired with the right partner. For instance, Gengar can’t come in, set up a Substitute, and attempt to annoy Chansey when Chansey can Teleport to Dragapult. Both will forever be OU in SS, without a doubt.

Final Thoughts: DLC has made SS fun again. There are tons of new Pokemon to play with. Lots of creativity/flexibility in team building. Unlike before where it was the same shit game after game.
 
Just a look at OU's current Regen users:

Amoonguss: I feel this guy is the least valuable of the Regen-ers simply because its tools aren't as valuable for stall or balance cores, lacking the crucial utility moves that make Pex and Growth great while a lack of pivoting moves means Slowbro does a better job getting its teammates in. Still, having Spore is definitely a point in its favor. My guess for sets would be some combo of Spore, Foul Play, and Clear Smog, along with Sludge Bomb/Toxic or Giga Drain for extra sustain (maybe Synthesis could fill this role, but I find it to be a bit of a momentum drain). I just feel that Tangrowth is generally a better fit in this meta right now.

Slowbro: Regenerator + Teleport. 'Nuff said. (Well, it does pack good physical bulk, Scald and reliable recovery in Slack Off, so you definitely want to focus on phys Defense with this guy. Still, Teleport gives it enough of a niche so it isn't overshadowed by Growth and Pex)

Tangrowth: While this guy doesn't appreciate the loss of HP, it still does Tangrowth things, importantly boasting an Earthquake resistance over the other Regen walls (namely Ammonguss) to help vs Drill. Knock Off also provides important utility to more Stall focused teams, not to mention having Leech Seed over Amoonguss to either give its team some added recovery or screw with the enemy's positioning. You could also run Sleep Powder, I guess, although this is the one point in the mushroom's favor because Spore>Sleep Powder. Top that off with either Rocky Helmet to further punish physical attackers or Leftovers for constant recovery and you have a damn fine physical wall. However, Tangrowth, unlike Slowbro, has the luxury of potentially running an AV set, as has been seen in the NatDex meta to notable success, although HP would need to be replaced with either Rock Slide or Focus Blast (mainly a matter of what you need to hit more). Honestly my favorite off the Regen walls currently.

Toxapex: I do expect Pex to take a bit of a dip in usage, although it can more than keep up thanks to still being a premier Toxic Spikes user. Its main set will probably stay the same. I do think he could potentially form a very annoying Regen core with Tangrowth due to good defensive synergy, as unlike Bro Pex's great special bulk allows it to take special hits that might overwhelm Growth, not to mention absorbing Toxic.

Still, these guys are probably gonna be really annoying, though.
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar on a critical hit: 102-121 (30.5 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
would not call this a counter since after rocks it becomes v prone to being worn down by multiple wicked blows
All you need to do is click "Pain Split" if you're scared. Not to mention you can pass Leech Seed or a wish to it relatively easy, depending on the circumstances because it has decent bulk to survive the neutral hits Clef/Chansey/Jirachi might not like. Also Weezing pairs well with Rillaboom for the extra Grassy surge recovery and EQ protection. With Grassy Terrain up this mf can switch in on Hippowdon and check it with status lol.

8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Weezing-Galar in Grassy Terrain: 80-96 (23.9 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after sandstorm damage, Black Sludge recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
 
I think people have been sleeping on zoruark a bit. While it is and will always be a very niche pick, the fact it can straight up lüre and remove checks to many breakers and other Pokémon. Hawlucha and rillaboom both appreciate corv being removed. Urshi appreciates Clef being removed and the list goes on and on.
 
All you need to do is click "Pain Split" if you're scared. Not to mention you can pass Leech Seed or a wish to it relatively easy, depending on the circumstances because it has decent bulk to survive the neutral hits Clef/Chansey/Jirachi might not like. Also Weezing pairs well with Rillaboom for the extra Grassy surge recovery and EQ protection. With Grassy Terrain up this mf can switch in on Hippowdon and check it with status lol.

8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Weezing-Galar in Grassy Terrain: 80-96 (23.9 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after sandstorm damage, Black Sludge recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
Yeah Weezing-Galar is incredible under Grassy Terrain. I've taken towards running Protect on it because it's actually the only mon that can do that against Urshifu-SS and it allows you to survive the 2HKO from the rarer banded Iron Head with Black Sludge recovery, but the side effect of that is also that it makes depleting the low PP of Wicked Blow + CC an incredible unique utility for Weezing-Galar. Similarly to the Sub/Protect/X sets we saw utilized on Bulu and it's partners at points in SMOU this naturally pairs really really well with Rillaboom and allows it to consistently remain healthy throughout the match. It's really the only mon right now that can properly take advantage of the value of protect and it helps that a lot of the mons that it can check are ones that it can Protect on beyond Urshifu.

On another note I really do not believe that people should be running Defog on Weezing. I only bring this up because it's considered "standard" on OU utility sets but the reality is that it doesn't really have the tools to consistently Defog unlike the other premier Defoggers in OU, and what's more said Defoggers actually cover a lot of the weaknesses that Weezing-Galar possesses. Weezing-Galar naturally absorbs T.Spikes, has no resistances to hazards, and can't afford to forego Sludge due to it's lack of recovery but Corv, Mandi & Rotom-H all pair with it incredibly well.

Can I ask where the remaining 44 EVs are on your spread? I imagine it's in Sp.Def but I had messed around with a few different spreads and something that has come up with 44 SpA previously was it guarantees an OHKO after rocks on Hawlucha with Steam whilst still handily surviving the KO from +2 Acrobatics

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Weezing-Galar: 204-241 (61 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
44 SpA Weezing-Galar Strange Steam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 260-308 (87.5 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Honestly I don't really know how much value there is in this but with Weezing I've consistently struggled to maximize it's value because it has so many possible options and none of them really seem 100% neccessary outside of perhaps Steam. I've been running Sludge for the guaranteed 2hko on Azu but that move doesn't really provide much outside of that context. Edit: just realised it was you who mentioned T.Spikes + Toxic together can you elaborate on that?
 
I'd like to add to the weezing-G talk; it absolutely deserves some recognition. Been putting in a ton of work for me.

Weezing-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strange Steam
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Defog

Honestly I don't really know how much value there is in this but with Weezing I've consistently struggled to maximize it's value because it has so many possible options and none of them really seem 100% neccessary outside of perhaps Steam. I've been running Sludge for the guaranteed 2hko on Azu but that move doesn't really provide much outside of that context.
I think bomb is important purely for the fairy types. Azu after a belly drum still chips you down, even with huge power gone. It also lets weezing handle clefable better.

I've been getting decent use out of defog, but toxic is also a good option. It's ability lets it deny clef magic guard, so it can poison or burn it and wear it down.

On that note, would it be worth running taunt on weezing with some speed to outpace clef? Burn it with will-o-wisp, wear it down with sludge, and taunt to prevent recovery/calm mind.
 
Now I'm by no means an expert but...



Chandelure @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
- Flamethrower
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Trick

Let's see what he can accomplish.
- Completely counters Corviknight.
- Checks Volcarona even at +1, eats a Psychic for breakfast and does half in return with Flamethrower. With correct prediction, he can absorb a fire move aimed to a teammate and fire that back.
- Checks Cinderace. Trick can be used to predict Sucker Punch variants.
- Can potentially ruin Toxapex via Trick.
- Counters Marowak-Alola since he's naturally faster than him, without any investment.
- Counters Amoonguss.
 
Now I'm by no means an expert but...



Chandelure @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
- Flamethrower
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Trick

Let's see what he can accomplish.
- Completely counters Corviknight.
- Checks Volcarona even at +1, eats a Psychic for breakfast and does half in return with Flamethrower. With correct prediction, he can absorb a fire move aimed to a teammate and fire that back.
- Checks Cinderace. Trick can be used to predict Sucker Punch variants.
- Can potentially ruin Toxapex via Trick.
- Counters Marowak-Alola since he's naturally faster than him, without any investment.
- Counters Amoonguss.
I think you'd generally want to run speed EVs. There isn't a lot in the 80 base range but you still want to beat stuff like Scizor, Magnezone, Kommo etc.

Probably Fire Blast or Overheat over Psychic. Psychic isn't even a guaranteed OHKO on Pex and besides KommoO there aren't really any other targets. You could even drop Psychic for CM to put pressure on defensive teams post Trick.

Anyway Chandelure is neat. It's one of those things that will never be OU but every time you see them in team preview you think "damn I'm really weak to this".
 
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1. How do you feel about the new mons that made it to OU (
)?
2. How do you feel about the pre-dlc mons that saw dips in usage?
3. For both returning mons and new-dlc mons, whose usage surprised you the most?
4. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?
5. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?
6. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
7. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
8. This one isn't entirely related to usage, but among the world cup games played so far, what has caught your attention so far?
9. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
10. Was this post helpful for you? I hope so :)
1. Having New Pokemon to play around with and theory-craft new teams and tactics is great for the metagame, Although I Think Marowak-Alola is Overrated, Sure It has club for an exclusive item that powers up its attacks (the Equivalent of Gorilla Tactics + Choice Band) but its speed tier is trash (it only works on TR teams) and its defensive typing isn't that good even with Lightning Rod
2.Corviknight- Skarmory took its unique Defensive typing, it's Weak to Volcarona , and Magnezone Even Traps Steel Types, so it looks like this Metallic Bird's drop in usage is reasonable
Rotom (Heat)- not completely bad, but Cinderace and Volcarona Does its job better as a good Fire Type because its Speed Tier is a little too slow, and its Set up move (Nasty plot) Doesn't boost its speed, and even if you wanted to use a Nasty Plot user, Alakazam is a better option, but give the meta some time and Volcorona Might, Keyword MIGHT , get banned, and then Rotom (Heat) will most likely see a resurgence in usage, but it's not guaranteed Right now
Zeraora- This One Surprised me the most, because sure, there are new bulky Grass Types, but they are not gonna have much viability when Cinderace and Volcarona are running around, Also Priority Users are good, but most of the time, they rely on some sort of gimmick, Example, Rilaboom has +1 Priority On Grassy Glide, but only if Grassy Terrain is up, Also Zeraora Destroys Most of the Metagame, and you might be asking "How?" Well run a Positive Nature on Atk instead of Spe and also Give it a Choice Band, this allows it to Destroy Some of the best walls in the Metagame, like Chansey and Slowbro while outspeed Banded Variants of Urshifu-SS (As long as it doesn't use Sucker punch)
3.Azumarill, I'm Kinda Shocked that it's #11 in usage, because sure, it could run Belly Drum + Aqua Jet, But Rilaboom Destroys this set, Also its speed tier isn't something to brag about, its typing is good, but Azumarill is missing some stuff to be a high-tier threat, not a bad mon tho
4.Volcarona, you might of seen me go on about some pokemon having bad matchups against Volcarona, well, get one Quiver Dance up and your opponent is already losing, combine that with Fiery Dance and Volcarona destroys everything that's not named Chansey
5. T-Tar- This Pokemon Already has Power-creep on its ass, and also has a Bug Type weakness, not even its 4x Strength Against Volcarona is gonna save it due to T-Tar Being Too Slow
Seismatoad- this Toad that's 10 sizes too big also has Problems that are 10 sizes too big, It Basically lost A LOT of Viability when Dracovish was banned, and now, Volcarona has access to Giga Drain, which Destroys This Oversized Toad
6. Zeraora- Plz look back at what I said on #2
7. Marowak-Alola Plz look back at what I said on #1, and Magnezone, this one Pokemon Needs Hidden Power Fire to make Magnet pull work for the User, and there aren't many Steel Types in Gen 8 OU, so Magnezone falling down in viability makes scene
8. I Haven't been Keeping up with that Tournament, so I can't say
9. Team Building has been Very Good because of the New (Returning) Pokemon and New Moves, having some Pokemon and moves not in SW/SH does Admittedly suck, but it's not enough to deter me from Playing in the Non-Nat Dex Formats
10. It's Very Helpful, Since it asks questions that are neither Too Simple and Too Complicated, and also Sparks Ideas for Discussion
 
Edit: just realised it was you who mentioned T.Spikes + Toxic together can you elaborate on that?
Yeah so usually people won't run Tspikes + Toxic because it's sort of a waste to have both - except for the fact that HDB are pretty common, and then combined with the fact that many popular defoggers are poison weak, and then factor in Magic Guard, Levitate, and other abilities, and TS aren't usually going to win you games. This strategy was a meme sometime last gen basically for the same reasons - Tspikes for instance really put a timer on offensive teams and bulky cores that are weak to them (e.g. Tangrowth) but they're so easy to remove that running Toxic can help chip down defoggers and force opponents into awkward switches they might not otherwise want to make.

Also, two points from above. Regarding Chandelure - Amoongus can run Spore/Toxic/Stomping Tantrum - none of these are good entries for Chandelure or other fire types. Regarding Alowak.. no no no no no. This thing is fast enough to beat pretty much every wall in the tier, with many being clean 1-2hko's. That's is role - its the no-setup, high-pressure core nuke that is admittedly not very good at defense but still checks a myriad of walls like Sylveon, Clefable, G-Weezing, Ferrothorn, Corviknight, Skarmory, Slowbro, Amoongus, etc. etc. etc. If you think it's overrated try running it on a VoltTurn or Teleport core to get it safely into play more often.
 
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Weezing-Galar: 204-241 (61 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
44 SpA Weezing-Galar Strange Steam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 260-308 (87.5 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
I’ve been running Psychic Seed Hawlucha, so you're not necessarily guaranteed to get an OHKO. I can do the calcs later but I think this is a reasonable set that shouldn’t be overlooked as it pairs well with Psychic spam thanks to it having a favorable matchup against the Dark and Steel types (except Corviknight)
 
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I’ve been running Psychic Seed Hawlucha, and I could see Zen Headbutt being a useful coverage move for this kind of matchup. I can do the calcs later but I think this is a reasonable set that shouldn’t be overlooked as it pairs well with Psychic spam thanks to it having a favorable matchup against the Dark and Steel types (except Corviknight)
So maybe the +SpDef would be the important factor here for you but since Lucha isn't grounded Zen Headbutt isn't going to ever beat Acro in terms of power - it doesn't benefit from Psychic Terrain other than by stopping priority
 
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