Time for Ingrain Celesteela to make its debut
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SPOILERS! [Crown Tundra!] List of Movepool Changes
- Thread starter MattL
- Start date
mostly gonna go over which additions will be OU-relevant, with a little on other tiers I have some familiarity with
Gen 1
Dual Wingbeat, Meteor Beam
Dual Wingbeat, Rising Voltage
Burning Jealousy, Dual Wingbeat, Scorching Sands
Dual Wingbeat, Scale Shot
Nice improvements. Aerodactyl and Dragonite finally have good Flying STAB with Dual Wingbeat. Their viability just skyrocketed. Dragonite also appreciates Scale Shot as a (imo) better option than Outrage. Zapdos becomes really strong under electric terrain, while Moltres has an option to hit Rock-types and Heatran now. Specs Moltres with Fire Blast, Hurricane, Scorching Sands, filler?
Gen 2
Burning Jealousy, Scorching Sands
Burning Jealousy, Lash Out, Scorching Sands
Rising Voltage
Why did Fire-types benefit more from a new ground move being added than the Ground-types did? Lmao. Typhlosion finally has more coverage, while Houndoom's coverage improves. Neither are relevant to OU but they'll mess up RU and NU for sure. Rising Voltage is nice for Raikou, although it might end up outclassed by other electrics.
Gen 3
Grassy Glide, Scale Shot
Coaching, Grassy Glide
Poltergeist, Skitter Smack
Dual Wingbeat, Scale Shot
Meteor Beam, Scale Shot
Expanding Force, Meteor Beam
Sceptile appreciates a strong STAB priority move, although it requires terrain, and Scale Shot is a good STAB option after it mega evolves. Breloom now has dual STAB priority off its base 130 attack. That's frightening. Mega Banette, despite its base 165 attack, never had a better STAB than Shadow Claw. Now it has an option that's 40 BP higher. Spicy. Base form Salamence, whether DD or Scarf, will be excellent with Dual Wingbeat. Scale Shot gives it a less punishable Dragon STAB as well, likewise with Rayquaza. Deoxys's access to Expanding Force makes Ubers psychic terrain teams sound terrifying.
Gen 4
Coaching, Scorching Sands
Scale Shot, Scorching Sands
Burning Jealousy, Scorching Sands
:Giratina: Dual Wingbeat, Poltergeist
Not too much here. Infernape can make use of Scorching Sands on NP or mixed sets, while Magmortar adds ground coverage to its existing Fire/Electric/Fighting arsenal. Scale Shot is a good option for Garchomp, and it makes Mega Garchomp terrifying. Scorching Sands might be useful on bulky sets. Giratina can run a physical set now, I guess?
Gen 5
Expanding Force, Scorching Sands
Dual Wingbeat, Lash Out, Meteor Beam
Lash Out, Rising Voltage
Scorching Sands
Coaching, Expanding Force, Triple Axel
Pretty barren here as well. Victini appreciates more options for special or mixed sets, while Archeops gets a reliable Flying-type stab and a surprisingly decent Power Herb + Meteor Beam combo off its base 112 special attack. Thundurus, either in incarnate or therian form, might appear on electric terrain abuse teams thanks to its access to Rising Voltage and Nasty Plot. Lando-T with Ground-type Scald, enough said. Specs Meloetta with Expanding Force seems solid, and Triple Axel is excellent coverage for its piroette form. Sadly, the latter will probably be outclassed by Mega Lopunny. F in the chat for Alomomola, which didn't get access to Flip Turn.
Gen 6
Burning Jealousy, Expanding Force, Scorching Sands
Lash Out, Meteor Beam, Scale Shot
Meteor Beam
Dual Wingbeat, Lash Out
Scale Shot, Scorching Sands, Skitter Smack
Expanding Force, Lash Out, Poltergeist
Scorching Sands
These additions aren't going to make or break these mons, but they're decent options regardless. Delphox, which lacks Focus Blast for some reason, is just thrilled to have a way of hitting Heatran and Tyranitar. Expanding Force is decent. It still won't be OU viable. Tyrantrum will prefer Scale Shot over Outrage on choiced sets, and Aurorus can make for a decent breaker with Meteor Beam. Yveltal can run a purely physical set now, with Dual Wingbeat, Knock Off, U-Turn, and Sucker Punch. Zygarde, Hoopa, and Volcanion aren't too impacted by the new moves, but those moves are busted enough that they'll probably see niche usage.
Gen 7
Misty Explosion, Rising Voltage, Terrain Pulse
Expanding Force, Misty Explosion, Terrain Pulse
Grassy Glide, Misty Explosion, Terrain Pulse
Flip Turn, Misty Explosion, Terrain Pulse
Corrosive Gas, Meteor Beam
Rising Voltage
Grassy Glide
Expanding Force, Scorching Sands
Now we're talking. The Tapus and Ultra Beasts got plenty of new toys. Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele will probably be quickbanned due to the sheer power of their STABs, in addition to automatically buffing them via their terrain abilities. Tapu Bulu's Grassy Glide will be deadly as well. Tapu Fini... exists, I guess. Flip Turn is a nice pivoting option for it, while Misty Explosion is technically usable. Nihilego can use a powerful Meteor Beam to boost itself, while Xurkitree gets points for having the strongest Rising Voltage in the game. Tail Glow sets are unwallable. Who the fuck thought giving a strong STAB priority move to a mon with higher attack than Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza was a good idea??? Kartana will probably be quickbanned too. Blacephalon can use Scorching Sands on Specs sets to punish Tyranitar and Heatran.
Overall there are a lot of great changes here... and some very questionable ones. The power creep continues.
Gen 1
Dual Wingbeat, Meteor Beam Dual Wingbeat, Rising Voltage Burning Jealousy, Dual Wingbeat, Scorching Sands Dual Wingbeat, Scale ShotNice improvements. Aerodactyl and Dragonite finally have good Flying STAB with Dual Wingbeat. Their viability just skyrocketed. Dragonite also appreciates Scale Shot as a (imo) better option than Outrage. Zapdos becomes really strong under electric terrain, while Moltres has an option to hit Rock-types and Heatran now. Specs Moltres with Fire Blast, Hurricane, Scorching Sands, filler?
Gen 2
Burning Jealousy, Scorching Sands Burning Jealousy, Lash Out, Scorching Sands Rising VoltageWhy did Fire-types benefit more from a new ground move being added than the Ground-types did? Lmao. Typhlosion finally has more coverage, while Houndoom's coverage improves. Neither are relevant to OU but they'll mess up RU and NU for sure. Rising Voltage is nice for Raikou, although it might end up outclassed by other electrics.
Gen 3
Grassy Glide, Scale Shot Coaching, Grassy Glide Poltergeist, Skitter Smack Dual Wingbeat, Scale Shot Meteor Beam, Scale Shot Expanding Force, Meteor BeamSceptile appreciates a strong STAB priority move, although it requires terrain, and Scale Shot is a good STAB option after it mega evolves. Breloom now has dual STAB priority off its base 130 attack. That's frightening. Mega Banette, despite its base 165 attack, never had a better STAB than Shadow Claw. Now it has an option that's 40 BP higher. Spicy. Base form Salamence, whether DD or Scarf, will be excellent with Dual Wingbeat. Scale Shot gives it a less punishable Dragon STAB as well, likewise with Rayquaza. Deoxys's access to Expanding Force makes Ubers psychic terrain teams sound terrifying.
Gen 4
Coaching, Scorching Sands Scale Shot, Scorching Sands Burning Jealousy, Scorching Sands:Giratina: Dual Wingbeat, Poltergeist
Not too much here. Infernape can make use of Scorching Sands on NP or mixed sets, while Magmortar adds ground coverage to its existing Fire/Electric/Fighting arsenal. Scale Shot is a good option for Garchomp, and it makes Mega Garchomp terrifying. Scorching Sands might be useful on bulky sets. Giratina can run a physical set now, I guess?
Gen 5
Expanding Force, Scorching Sands Dual Wingbeat, Lash Out, Meteor Beam Lash Out, Rising Voltage Scorching Sands Coaching, Expanding Force, Triple AxelPretty barren here as well. Victini appreciates more options for special or mixed sets, while Archeops gets a reliable Flying-type stab and a surprisingly decent Power Herb + Meteor Beam combo off its base 112 special attack. Thundurus, either in incarnate or therian form, might appear on electric terrain abuse teams thanks to its access to Rising Voltage and Nasty Plot. Lando-T with Ground-type Scald, enough said. Specs Meloetta with Expanding Force seems solid, and Triple Axel is excellent coverage for its piroette form. Sadly, the latter will probably be outclassed by Mega Lopunny. F in the chat for Alomomola, which didn't get access to Flip Turn.
Gen 6
Burning Jealousy, Expanding Force, Scorching Sands Lash Out, Meteor Beam, Scale Shot Meteor Beam Dual Wingbeat, Lash Out Scale Shot, Scorching Sands, Skitter Smack Expanding Force, Lash Out, Poltergeist Scorching SandsThese additions aren't going to make or break these mons, but they're decent options regardless. Delphox, which lacks Focus Blast for some reason, is just thrilled to have a way of hitting Heatran and Tyranitar. Expanding Force is decent. It still won't be OU viable. Tyrantrum will prefer Scale Shot over Outrage on choiced sets, and Aurorus can make for a decent breaker with Meteor Beam. Yveltal can run a purely physical set now, with Dual Wingbeat, Knock Off, U-Turn, and Sucker Punch. Zygarde, Hoopa, and Volcanion aren't too impacted by the new moves, but those moves are busted enough that they'll probably see niche usage.
Gen 7
Misty Explosion, Rising Voltage, Terrain Pulse Expanding Force, Misty Explosion, Terrain Pulse Grassy Glide, Misty Explosion, Terrain Pulse Flip Turn, Misty Explosion, Terrain Pulse Corrosive Gas, Meteor Beam Rising Voltage Grassy Glide Expanding Force, Scorching SandsNow we're talking. The Tapus and Ultra Beasts got plenty of new toys. Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele will probably be quickbanned due to the sheer power of their STABs, in addition to automatically buffing them via their terrain abilities. Tapu Bulu's Grassy Glide will be deadly as well. Tapu Fini... exists, I guess. Flip Turn is a nice pivoting option for it, while Misty Explosion is technically usable. Nihilego can use a powerful Meteor Beam to boost itself, while Xurkitree gets points for having the strongest Rising Voltage in the game. Tail Glow sets are unwallable. Who the fuck thought giving a strong STAB priority move to a mon with higher attack than Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza was a good idea??? Kartana will probably be quickbanned too. Blacephalon can use Scorching Sands on Specs sets to punish Tyranitar and Heatran.
Overall there are a lot of great changes here... and some very questionable ones. The power creep continues.
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Updated and cleaned up the OP and thread title. Thanks as always to the dataminers and the people who compile this information into a clean format!
And as usual, this is a good topic for Poketubers to make videos about. If you'd like to see a video discussion of this latest datamine, one can be found here:
And as usual, this is a good topic for Poketubers to make videos about. If you'd like to see a video discussion of this latest datamine, one can be found here:
I feel like you really overrate the potency of Grassy Glide on users without Grassy Surge. We have yet to see any viable use of the move outside of Rillaboom and its prevos, and I don’t think users as strong as Kartana even will change that with how hard it is to keep terrain up consistently (not to mention the defensive weaknesses you stack trying to build a core like this). Most of the time it will just be a 70 BP physical grass attack with no other effects, which really isn’t worth the moveslot.mostly gonna go over which additions will be OU-relevant, with a little on other tiers I have some familiarity with
Gen 1
Nice improvements. Aerodactyl and Dragonite finally have good Flying STAB with Dual Wingbeat. Their viability just skyrocketed. Dragonite also appreciates Scale Shot as a (imo) better option than Outrage. Zapdos becomes really strong under electric terrain, while Moltres has an option to hit Rock-types and Heatran now. Specs Moltres with Fire Blast, Hurricane, Scorching Sands, filler?
Gen 2
Why did Fire-types benefit more from a new ground move being added than the Ground-types did? Lmao. Typhlosion finally has more coverage, while Houndoom's coverage improves. Neither are relevant to OU but they'll mess up RU and NU for sure. Rising Voltage is nice for Raikou, although it might end up outclassed by other electrics.
Gen 3
Sceptile appreciates a strong STAB priority move, although it requires terrain, and Scale Shot is a good STAB option after it mega evolves. Breloom now has dual STAB priority off its base 130 attack. That's frightening. Mega Banette, despite its base 165 attack, never had a better STAB than Shadow Claw. Now it has an option that's 40 BP higher. Spicy. Base form Salamence, whether DD or Scarf, will be excellent with Dual Wingbeat. Scale Shot gives it a less punishable Dragon STAB as well, likewise with Rayquaza. Deoxys's access to Expanding Force makes Ubers psychic terrain teams sound terrifying.
Gen 4
:Giratina: Dual Wingbeat, Poltergeist
Not too much here. Infernape can make use of Scorching Sands on NP or mixed sets, while Magmortar adds ground coverage to its existing Fire/Electric/Fighting arsenal. Scale Shot is a good option for Garchomp, and it makes Mega Garchomp terrifying. Scorching Sands might be useful on bulky sets. Giratina can run a physical set now, I guess?
Gen 5
Pretty barren here as well. Victini appreciates more options for special or mixed sets, while Archeops gets a reliable Flying-type stab and a surprisingly decent Power Herb + Meteor Beam combo off its base 112 special attack. Thundurus, either in incarnate or therian form, might appear on electric terrain abuse teams thanks to its access to Rising Voltage and Nasty Plot. Lando-T with Ground-type Scald, enough said. Specs Meloetta with Expanding Force seems solid, and Triple Axel is excellent coverage for its piroette form. Sadly, the latter will probably be outclassed by Mega Lopunny. F in the chat for Alomomola, which didn't get access to Flip Turn.
Gen 6
These additions aren't going to make or break these mons, but they're decent options regardless. Delphox, which lacks Focus Blast for some reason, is just thrilled to have a way of hitting Heatran and Tyranitar. Expanding Force is decent. It still won't be OU viable. Tyrantrum will prefer Scale Shot over Outrage on choiced sets, and Aurorus can make for a decent breaker with Meteor Beam. Yveltal can run a purely physical set now, with Dual Wingbeat, Knock Off, U-Turn, and Sucker Punch. Zygarde, Hoopa, and Volcanion aren't too impacted by the new moves, but those moves are busted enough that they'll probably see niche usage.
Gen 7
Now we're talking. The Tapus and Ultra Beasts got plenty of new toys. Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele will probably be quickbanned due to the sheer power of their STABs, in addition to automatically buffing them via their terrain abilities. Tapu Bulu's Grassy Glide will be deadly as well. Tapu Fini... exists, I guess. Flip Turn is a nice pivoting option for it, while Misty Explosion is technically usable. Nihilego can use a powerful Meteor Beam to boost itself, while Xurkitree gets points for having the strongest Rising Voltage in the game. Tail Glow sets are unwallable. Who the fuck thought giving a strong STAB priority move to a mon with higher attack than Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza was a good idea??? Kartana will probably be quickbanned too. Blacephalon can use Scorching Sands on Specs sets to punish Tyranitar and Heatran.
Overall there are a lot of great changes here... and some very questionable ones. The power creep continues.
I agree. The reason I mentioned Grassy Glide on Sceptile, Breloom, and Kartana is the same as the reason I mentioned the new moves received by Zygarde, Hoopa, and Volcanion: good pokemon with new access to really good moves, although they can’t make good use of them generally.
Sceptile gains the least benefit from Grassy Glide; it’s only relevant as access to priority but generally isn’t worth the moveslot. Breloom can afford to run Grassy Glide without relying on terrain being up, as its best Grass STAB otherwise is Seed Bomb, only 10 BP higher. Bullet Seed is potentially stronger than both, and it’s generally the best of the three options. Kartana has the same reasoning as Sceptile, basically. The only difference is that SM OU had some grass-spam cores with Z move Bulu + Scarf Kart, so there’s *some* precedent.
To recap, it’s a good move that’s on mons that aren’t good abusers, so it doesn’t warrant any hype. My bad for implying that Grassy Glide would be a particularly important change for them.
Probably a little, since Ingrain prevents switching, so to make the best use of Grassy Glide you'd also need Ingrain and Grassy Terrain on the same set.
That leaves you with one spare moveslot to cover a poor offensive type, non-stab move, ignoring the fact you just gave up the biggest selling point of Steel/Flying (Ground immunity). On the other hand Grassy Terrain weakens EQ, and between the Terrain and Ingrain you're recovering 1/8 of your health every turn, in addition to whatever your item gives you, which compliments Celesteela's excellent bulk.
So, it's got some major flaws, but you could do worse.
Ah yeah, I didn't check. Actually mildly surprised it can't learn it.
Two other options for getting it grounded are Gravity and Iron Ball (the latter also boosts its Heavy Slams, though they don't really need help).
Ready for some quick bans when the DLC release.
I thought Celesteela would get Meteor Beam because it's based off the Kaguya spaceship in Japanese folklore (It did get it after all), and Palkia cause it LITERALLY CONTROLS SPACE, because what we've seen so far in this game, any Pokémon that are space themed or have space like properties got Meteor Beam, like Clefable, Lunatone, Solrock, and from this leak Rayquaza and Deoxys.
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CTNC
Doesn't know how to attack
Palkia (and Dialga) don't learn Cosmic Power according to leaks either. I guess it's the embodiment of all parts of space except outer space? Yeah... This is stupid. Rayquaza gets Meteor Beam and Cosmic Power, but not Palkia? Rayquaza isn't even from space, it's just really high in the sky! (I don't get why this is close enough. I blame flying into space in ORAS's Delta Episode and being know for fighting Deoxys, who's actually from space.)
Edit: I get that Palkia's space as in "physics" instead of space as in "outer space," but which one do you think of when someone says space? I know there's a difference but I still have trouble thinking of them as separate things.
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Palkia's....not that kind of space. It controls physical space. The concept of "space". Not space-as-in-meteors
Dialga controls the flow of time, Palkia controls (to kind of simplify things) placement within and confines a space. They're the space-time pokemon not because outer space is cool and time travel is cool but because it's like, a physics thing. spacetime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
now obviously Outer Space would fall within this, and considering Palkia's got 2 giant gemstones on it & an assortment of rock moves it should probably get the move anyway, but that's not what they're going for here.
now obviously Outer Space would fall within this, and considering Palkia's got 2 giant gemstones on it & an assortment of rock moves it should probably get the move anyway, but that's not what they're going for here.
why are you going over starters that are not coming?Gen 1
Nice improvements. Aerodactyl and Dragonite finally have good Flying STAB with Dual Wingbeat. Their viability just skyrocketed. Dragonite also appreciates Scale Shot as a (imo) better option than Outrage. Zapdos becomes really strong under electric terrain, while Moltres has an option to hit Rock-types and Heatran now. Specs Moltres with Fire Blast, Hurricane, Scorching Sands, filler?
Gen 2
Why did Fire-types benefit more from a new ground move being added than the Ground-types did? Lmao. Typhlosion finally has more coverage, while Houndoom's coverage improves. Neither are relevant to OU but they'll mess up RU and NU for sure. Rising Voltage is nice for Raikou, although it might end up outclassed by other electrics.
Gen 3
Sceptile appreciates a strong STAB priority move, although it requires terrain, and Scale Shot is a good STAB option after it mega evolves. Breloom now has dual STAB priority off its base 130 attack. That's frightening. Mega Banette, despite its base 165 attack, never had a better STAB than Shadow Claw. Now it has an option that's 40 BP higher. Spicy. Base form Salamence, whether DD or Scarf, will be excellent with Dual Wingbeat. Scale Shot gives it a less punishable Dragon STAB as well, likewise with Rayquaza. Deoxys's access to Expanding Force makes Ubers psychic terrain teams sound terrifying.
Gen 4
:Giratina: Dual Wingbeat, Poltergeist
Not too much here. Infernape can make use of Scorching Sands on NP or mixed sets, while Magmortar adds ground coverage to its existing Fire/Electric/Fighting arsenal. Scale Shot is a good option for Garchomp, and it makes Mega Garchomp terrifying. Scorching Sands might be useful on bulky sets. Giratina can run a physical set now, I guess?
Gen 5
Pretty barren here as well. Victini appreciates more options for special or mixed sets, while Archeops gets a reliable Flying-type stab and a surprisingly decent Power Herb + Meteor Beam combo off its base 112 special attack. Thundurus, either in incarnate or therian form, might appear on electric terrain abuse teams thanks to its access to Rising Voltage and Nasty Plot. Lando-T with Ground-type Scald, enough said. Specs Meloetta with Expanding Force seems solid, and Triple Axel is excellent coverage for its piroette form. Sadly, the latter will probably be outclassed by Mega Lopunny. F in the chat for Alomomola, which didn't get access to Flip Turn.
Gen 6
These additions aren't going to make or break these mons, but they're decent options regardless. Delphox, which lacks Focus Blast for some reason, is just thrilled to have a way of hitting Heatran and Tyranitar. Expanding Force is decent. It still won't be OU viable. Tyrantrum will prefer Scale Shot over Outrage on choiced sets, and Aurorus can make for a decent breaker with Meteor Beam. Yveltal can run a purely physical set now, with Dual Wingbeat, Knock Off, U-Turn, and Sucker Punch. Zygarde, Hoopa, and Volcanion aren't too impacted by the new moves, but those moves are busted enough that they'll probably see niche usage.
Gen 7
Now we're talking. The Tapus and Ultra Beasts got plenty of new toys. Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele will probably be quickbanned due to the sheer power of their STABs, in addition to automatically buffing them via their terrain abilities. Tapu Bulu's Grassy Glide will be deadly as well. Tapu Fini... exists, I guess. Flip Turn is a nice pivoting option for it, while Misty Explosion is technically usable. Nihilego can use a powerful Meteor Beam to boost itself, while Xurkitree gets points for having the strongest Rising Voltage in the game. Tail Glow sets are unwallable. Who the fuck thought giving a strong STAB priority move to a mon with higher attack than Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza was a good idea??? Kartana will probably be quickbanned too. Blacephalon can use Scorching Sands on Specs sets to punish Tyranitar and Heatran.
It's just for generalization
I covered everything that I considered noteworthy or at least interesting because it may be relevant in future games/gens. It might affect NatDex OU right now, but I wouldn’t know since I don’t play it.
I'm surprised there isn't more discussion about Specially offensive Blaziken. With Aura Sphere and Scorching Sands, it's now a viable specially offensive fighting type, which are few and far between. Sure, Physical sets will probably still be the standard with things like HJK and Flare Blitz, but Specially offensive Blaziken has potent fire STAB in Overheat/Fire Blast, a rare fighting STAB that's not Focus Blast, and a great coverage move. It even also gets U-Turn now, which could fill the fourth move slot.
I think the main issue is that both Blaziken (for now) isn't coming back, and datamine is not used in Natdex since 1) it's datamine 2) it's not 100% reliable as GF shown they can change their mind before releasing (see HH azumarill, oh that'd have broken stuff...)
Overally outside of occasional speculation, there's little to theorycraft about those movesets until they actually show up in game.
Blaziken getting Scorching Sands isn't out of the question considering all the Fire-type starters currently in the game get it and considering the other moves, yeah I can see Close Combat and U-turn being legit additions
I mean, I'm not questioning that it's getting those specific moves, I just say that there's always a chance they don't happen which is why people aren't really theorycrafting on the new tutors or TM learnset as much
For the most part all of the moves that Pokémon got in the datamine they ended up getting in Isle of Armour. The only exceptions were like Azumarill and Politoed. Politoed was shown to get Ally Switch but it didn't get it in the end
There's also some inconsistencies with the Tutor reveal (someone mentioned Triple Axel Tsareena being missing for example).
It's a very small sample of "mistakes", but the fact they are a thing mean you can't get anything for "guaranteed" until it's in game. 99% accuracy is not 100%.
... Blaziken... is coming back, though? According to this very same datamine I believe???
Well, you are right I suppose, and I am indeed dumb for not checking.
Still, again, remember to take those datamines with grain of salt. We're talking of leftover data and nothing is final until it shows in game.
As I said, the fact there has been inaccurate data (albeith in extremely small %) means for what we know, there could be more inaccurate or "changed at last moment" data in there, both as false positive (like HH azumarill) or missing (like Triple Axel Tsareena), so we can't take any of the things datamined as "confirmed" for now.