Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v6 (Usage stats in post #408)

[The Dragon Master]

I never said that Urshifu could break the regen Mandi core or something like that . But banded wicked blow can break past almost every other viable defensive core . Those cores have been significantly more common on balance almost purely to stop it .Urshifu won't break the fat mon + dark resist core and thats why the core is so common just like seismitoad was so common when the vish was here. It doesn't matter if those individual mons are good to your still forced to run them.

That being said I do think pex should also be suspected

 

[MetaNite]

Adamant LO Urshifu, as +TPP pointed out a page ago, has the potential to break past Regen cores that rely on Clefable over Mandibuzz as their Dark-resist. Wicked Blow + Iron Head will kill Clefable sets that aren’t max Def. Even with max Def, you have a 30% chance to flinch, it’ll die with earlier chip damage, or you can predict the switch in. You better believe they will go to their Regen mon next if you Iron Head Clefable on the switch so tap Wicked Blow and boom - at least one member of their core is dead.

Mandibuzz is needed to truly hard counter Urshifu but is still vulnerable to chip damage as it lacks Leftovers and is likely also your counter to Rillaboom, Crawdaunt, etc.

Additionally, it isn’t Urshifu’s stats, movepool, ability, etc. or a combination of them that makes it overwhelming - it’s the context in the metagame and right now there is a case for it being that centralizing. Even HO teams need to prepare for it with a fast Dark-resist, Sucker Punch is that strong.

 

[robofiend]

Urshifu's reliance on prediction is not to be undersold. When people say "Urshifu 1-2HKO's the entire tier" what they really mean is "Choice Band Urshifu 1-2HKO's the entire tier" - which means that good prediction is a necessary condition for its success. It's kind of funny to say that a mon with 2 great STABs, one of which is an absolute nuke, needs prediction to be effective but it's true. U-Turn, Iron Head, and Sucker Punch are bad moves to use at the wrong time.

Like Volcarona, Urshifu picks its checks to some degree. BU sets can beat Mandi, but not Clef (at least from full, and that's if they bring Poison Jab). Scarf sets can clean faster opponents more reliably than Sucker Punch ones, but cannot break Hippow/Mandi/Pex. Band sets can be an absolute nuke but are still vulnerable to faster offense. Life Orb is an awesome item on Urshifu to clear up prediction problems, but it does not help with its relatively "meh" bulk, lack of recovery, and tendency to get worn down by hazards or Sandstorm.

The main way I think Urshifu is different than Dracovish is this: a lot of mons in the tier existed solely to check Dracovish, and this is not the case in present day OU. I ran Vaporeon, Seismitoad, I tried Toxicroak - pretty much anything to stop Fishious Rend from OHKOing my team. But mons like Hippow, Mandi, Pex, Clef, and G-Weezing all have great utility outside of checking Urshifu. Offensive threats like Hawlucha, Dragapult, Volcarona, Rillaboom, Rain/Sun offense, and others absolutely steam-roll a misplayed Urshifu, or one that lacks the moves to beat them. I probably wouldn't stop running any of these if Urshifu were banned - Mandi + Hippow are must haves for beating Marowak, Clef & Pex are god tier support, and the offensive threats are all extremely viable in their own right, aside from also being fast enough to outpace Urshifu.

In conclusion: while it may feel like you're underprepared for every Urshifu set when you run balance or stall, that doesn't mean that it's broken. Some mons are just straight up versatile - I think this metagame lacks that far more than it suffers from it. We need strong offense that can break stall and balance if played wisely and mons that can break expectations to keep the game fresh.

 

[hmsa2012]

Urshifu's reliance on prediction is not to be undersold. When people say "Urshifu 1-2HKO's the entire tier" what they really mean is "Choice Band Urshifu 1-2HKO's the entire tier" - which means that good prediction is a necessary condition for its success. It's kind of funny to say that a mon with 2 great STABs, one of which is an absolute nuke, needs prediction to be effective but it's true. U-Turn, Iron Head, and Sucker Punch are bad moves to use at the wrong time.

Like Volcarona, Urshifu picks its checks to some degree. BU sets can beat Mandi, but not Clef (at least from full, and that's if they bring Poison Jab). Scarf sets can clean faster opponents more reliably than Sucker Punch ones, but cannot break Hippow/Mandi/Pex. Band sets can be an absolute nuke but are still vulnerable to faster offense. Life Orb is an awesome item on Urshifu to clear up prediction problems, but it does not help with its relatively "meh" bulk, lack of recovery, and tendency to get worn down by hazards or Sandstorm.

The main way I think Urshifu is different than Dracovish is this: a lot of mons in the tier existed solely to check Dracovish, and this is not the case in present day OU. I ran Vaporeon, Seismitoad, I tried Toxicroak - pretty much anything to stop Fishious Rend from OHKOing my team. But mons like Hippow, Mandi, Pex, Clef, and G-Weezing all have great utility outside of checking Urshifu. Offensive threats like Hawlucha, Dragapult, Volcarona, Rillaboom, Rain/Sun offense, and others absolutely steam-roll a misplayed Urshifu, or one that lacks the moves to beat them. I probably wouldn't stop running any of these if Urshifu were banned - Mandi + Hippow are must haves for beating Marowak, Clef & Pex are god tier support, and the offensive threats are all extremely viable in their own right, aside from also being fast enough to outpace Urshifu.

In conclusion: while it may feel like you're underprepared for every Urshifu set when you run balance or stall, that doesn't mean that it's broken. Some mons are just straight up versatile - I think this metagame lacks that far more than it suffers from it. We need strong offense that can break stall and balance if played wisely and mons that can break expectations to keep the game fresh.

I agree with your sentiment in regarding to Urshifu-S. However, I think some people's opinion of regarding Urshifu-S vs Toxapex is going to come down to offensive vs defensive presence in this metagame. Do I personally believe Urshifu is broken? No, due to its checks and longevity issues (unless you happen to run a very niche move in Drain Punch). Is Urshifu a great mon to use to break the fat metagame trends we are seeing right now? Absolutely.

I'm inclined to say Toxapex is an issue not only because of its somewhat team building restrictions against it, but as an offensive inclined player, that's the mindset I'm going with in such discussion. While "unhealthy" can be tolerated based on their checks/counters, I believe that Toxapex does strangle players with team orientation (ex: if I can't deal with it 1v1 in the endgame, its already going to be a difficult match-up to begin with). And yes, Toxapex does benefit greatly from its common teammates like Blissey, Corviknight, Amoonguss, Hippo, etc., but the problem starts with Pex benefiting so much to the point that it becomes unhealthy. I made a opinion video on Toxapex here in case anyone is interested.

 

[Darkk]

The majority of the community: Toxapex is broken and should be suspected next. With Regenerator/ Recover/ insane bulk it can wall most offensive threats and shrug off the damage easily. Toxapex can also apply insane pressure to its counter via Knock Off, Burn, and Toxic. Toxapex is an unhealthy mon and has no business in the OU metagame.

OU Forum Leader: How about we suspect Urshifu instead!

wut

 

[Ruft]

The majority of the community: Toxapex is broken and should be suspected next. With Regenerator/ Recover/ insane bulk it can wall most offensive threats and shrug off the damage easily. Toxapex can also apply insane pressure to its counter via Knock Off, Burn, and Toxic. Toxapex is an unhealthy mon and has no business in the OU metagame.

OU Forum Leader: How about we suspect Urshifu instead!

wut

Multiple Pokemon can be discussed simultaneously. Finch already mentioned how this is the metagame discussion thread, not the Toxapex discussion thread. Just because TPP talked about Urshifu doesn't mean he thinks Toxapex or anything else isn't a problem. And even if that were the case, is he not allowed to share his personal opinion?

 

[BigFatMantis]

Honestly I think everyone should pack their bags on the Toxapex suspect talk - it's already September soon and there's been no suspect on it, and it seems the council is pretty adamant on NOT suspecting it at all until "Cinderace is re-tested", which means it will probably never happen. Crown Tundra drops new pokemon in two months, many of which deal with Toxapex fine (Zapdos, Thundurus, Tapu Lele, etc), so there doesn't seem to be any point in suspecting it anymore if it isn't done like right now (which, again, is unlikely). It will be almost an entire month of testing to re-test Cinderace and then suspect Toxapex. It seems like a blown opportunity to not suspect it sooner (really silly concept to "wait" for a Cinderace re-test imo), but maybe the decision-makers just didn't really want to suspect it in the first place. The only way it will get done is if they simultaneously re-tested Cinderace and suspect Toxapex at the same time, and did it within the next two weeks, so we have at least a solid month of October without hellpex dictating what everyone has on their teams.

And, since there's also Urshifu checks dropping with Crown Tundra (Tapu Fini, for example, and maybe even new FightZapdos depending on what it's like), it wouldn't seem right to test that either if we're not testing Toxapex. And, given the current state of the metagame, we might as well drop Lugia into OU when it gets released and see how it plays out since it's just as crazy (maybe even less so) as Toxapex and probably gets wrekt by Urshifu.

 

[Mushfiq]

Multiple Pokemon can be discussed simultaneously. Finch already mentioned how this is the metagame discussion thread, not the Toxapex discussion thread. Just because TPP talked about Urshifu doesn't mean he thinks Toxapex or anything else isn't a problem. And even if that were the case, is he not allowed to share his personal opinion?

Definitely, there is nothing wrong with that. But when the majority of the community is advocating for a suspect test for one mon and the forum leader comes, ignores all of that and starts the talk about suspecting a different mon, it feels that the voice of the community is not being heard at all.

A forum leader or council member, besides voicing their personal opinion, also has the responsibility to address the concerns being expressed by the community, which seems to be missing when it comes to the calls for a Toxapex suspect test.

 

[Ruft]

Definitely, there is nothing wrong with that. But when the majority of the community is advocating for a suspect test for one mon and the forum leader comes, ignores all of that and starts the talk about suspecting a different mon, it feels that the voice of the community is not being heard at all.

A forum leader or council member, besides voicing their personal opinion, also has the responsibility to address the concerns being expressed by the community, which seems to be missing when it comes to the calls for a Toxapex suspect test.

I see where you're coming from, but while TPP is indeed a forum leader, he's not a council member. At the end of the day he (or anyone else that's not on the council) has no say as to what tiering actions occur and as such has no responsbility to address your concerns while having every right to advocate for whatever he may please. There is no issue here whatsoever.

 

[TPP]

Definitely, there is nothing wrong with that. But when the majority of the community is advocating for a suspect test for one mon and the forum leader comes, ignores all of that and starts the talk about suspecting a different mon, it feels that the voice of the community is not being heard at all.

A forum leader or council member, besides voicing their personal opinion, also has the responsibility to address the concerns being expressed by the community, which seems to be missing when it comes to the calls for a Toxapex suspect test.

I am not on the council so I cannot provide any information on what happens to Toxapex, nor can I request nor demand something happen to it. I am aware there was discussion on Toxapex earlier in this thread and I felt like a general consensus was reached where enough people had voiced their displeasure with Toxapex to the point where I didn't see the need for myself to add anything to it. On the other hand, Urshifu was fresh on my mind and I hadn't seen much discussion about it, which is why I made the post in the first place. There are no hard rules on what you can and cannot discuss with the exception of banned/unreleased mons, and while I know there is a preference to discuss a more hated mon (Toxapex), it does not mean we can't discuss anything else.

In case this needs clearing up, I am not suggesting we test Urshifu instead of Toxapex, but rather I think it's another mon that may look problematic in addition to Toxapex.

 

[PimpParasect]

I think the best approach would be what in the long term stunts metagame growth.

Urshifu is broken for its own reasons, but what urks me with pex is how the metagame simply can't develop around it, and thats a huge issue when factoring in another meta shakeup with the DLC. Its hard to describe why pex needs to go so the DLC meta can develop without theorymoning, but truth is nothing coming in DLC reliably counters pex. I see suggests of thundurus, zapdos, xurk, but none of these want crippled with toxic, burn, or knock off so I don't really see them switching in frequently, especially if pex is paired with fat walls like blissey or is paired with powerful breakers that can setup on them. Sure maybe in the 1v1 metagame but this is OU, shit moves around.

Then there's the issue of what standard pex creates for OU wallbreakers, as pex is such a strong wall due to regen, that common wall breakers either will be strong enough to muscle through pex and limit the number of times its teammates can cover it, or they'll be held back because they can't break certain pex sets as well as others.

I can't say urshifu is meta warping in that regard, at least not on the topic of the future of gen 8, I don't believe that you'll be asking 'how well does this deal with urshi" as much as you'll be asking "how well does this deal/pair with pex". Both deserve to be banned but not banning pex first is extremely detrimental.

 

[Darkk]

Aside from Finch (god bless him for actually engaging with the community), no OU council members have posted here or anywhere else expressing their opinions about the metagame in months. The community is completely in the dark here.

So ofc when a prominent and highly respect OU staff member like TPP said “Urshifu should be tested,” we felt like all of our points about Pex were just brushed off to the side and extremely worried that Pex will just remain in OU forever. I’m sure that isn’t TPP intention, but thats how it felt because there’s almost no communication from the OU council.

 

[Ricardittos]

I really don't have any opinions on shifu, the mon is strong, yes, very strong, but not like borderline broken.
Now Pex is overbearing, I use toxapex myself and find my pex almost every time in the endgame because of regenerator, I don't use knock off, but toxic and scald burn put a lot of pressure. I believe since metagame is short in comparison to others cause nat dex cut, Pex became over the top and needs to get cut of from the meta.
Don't start on DLC cause, yes, the counters are coming, but that doesn't make up for the fact that pex is broken and probably will be.
IMO pex should get suspect tested or quickbanned until ace suspect test or new DLC drops by.

 

[Monky25]

Honestly I think everyone should pack their bags on the Toxapex suspect talk - it's already September soon and there's been no suspect on it, and it seems the council is pretty adamant on NOT suspecting it at all until "Cinderace is re-tested", which means it will probably never happen. Crown Tundra drops new pokemon in two months, many of which deal with Toxapex fine (Zapdos, Thundurus, Tapu Lele, etc), so there doesn't seem to be any point in suspecting it anymore if it isn't done like right now (which, again, is unlikely). It will be almost an entire month of testing to re-test Cinderace and then suspect Toxapex. It seems like a blown opportunity to not suspect it sooner (really silly concept to "wait" for a Cinderace re-test imo), but maybe the decision-makers just didn't really want to suspect it in the first place. The only way it will get done is if they simultaneously re-tested Cinderace and suspect Toxapex at the same time, and did it within the next two weeks, so we have at least a solid month of October without hellpex dictating what everyone has on their teams.

And, since there's also Urshifu checks dropping with Crown Tundra (Tapu Fini, for example, and maybe even new FightZapdos depending on what it's like), it wouldn't seem right to test that either if we're not testing Toxapex. And, given the current state of the metagame, we might as well drop Lugia into OU when it gets released and see how it plays out since it's just as crazy (maybe even less so) as Toxapex and probably gets wrekt by Urshifu.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss any action on toxapex as of now. While it is very close to September, OLT still has it's 4th cycle to complete at the moment. The council could very well wait until all the qualifying stages are completed to look into a pokemon. While it is frustrating that despite the cries for action on pex the council hasn't said anything (other than finch), its very well possible that they're waiting until after OLT to either take action on pex or issue a survey to players to gauge on what is more problematic, pex or urshifu.

I do also agree that there would be no reason to test urshifu if pex also wasn't to be looked at. There really is no reason as to why Urshifu should be tested but pex should be left alone until crown tundra. Both are likely going to be fine when the DLC happens, so it's a matter of finding out when to look at them in addition to solving the cinderace issue. I believe that banning cinderace and doing nothing else only gives us a month without cinderace, because soon it'll come back, found safe in a broken checks broken situation, than if they finally decide to suspect pex cinderace will just get banned again.

Lastly, while I do understand TPP was voicing his opinions, as Finch alluded to it's the metagame discussion thread not the pex talk thread, I do ALSO understand the concerns of many players about how they feel unheard considering how very few council members have given their thoughts on pex, urshifu, or both of them throughout the last few months. I can see the paranoia that many players are facing about the lack of communication from the council in addition to those who already have issues with them about catering to tournament players or what not.

tl;dr: Wait until after cycle 4 ends before we completely dismiss any action on toxapex, no reason to ban urshifu but keep pex since both will be balanced by DLC and many players find pex more of a problem than shifu, suspect pex before retesting cinderace (no reason to not), and lastly yeah most normal players feel a bit alienated from the council due to the lack of communication from most of the members.

 

[The Dragon Master]

I think you can really boil down the "ban a mon "argument to a few key points

1.Has the Pokemon in question made any Pokemon worse because of its existence -For toxapex - yes

The best example is keldeo . Keldeo was really good in oras and bw even though it had its fair share of counters but when this thing came it just dropped off.

2.Has the Pokemon in question made certain Pokemon good because of its existence: for toxapex Yes

This one's easy ,many mons have risen as they can beat pex . Perhaps the best example is reuniclus. Other examples include zera and zam .

3. Has this Pokemon made certain Pokemon run strategies to beat it - for toxapex yes

Another easy one volcarona with psychic , Dragpult with tbolt and so on

4. Can this pokemon stuff traditional ways of dealing with that style of play - for toxapex yes

This was the reason why many other major mons were banned and it's the same for pex. Want to beat it by hitting it with repeated attacks: good luck with that b/w regen and recover and it's Titanic bulk . A select few mons can, but those are choice locked so you can switch to a counter and get all your health back .Want to chip it down slowly with hazards or toxic , good luck with that between regen and toxic immunity. Want to set up , that thing clicks haze.

 

[KztxL7]

While Toxapex is a problem the first three (particularly the first two) points you've made need more depth and clarification because they can easily be argued against or misused with them being so barebones.

The example with Keldeo because it was good in ORAS and BW doesn't really hold up as well. Some pokemon are just naturally going to fall off with the addition of new generation (while some may become amazing *cough*Clefable*cough*). This can be because of several reasons. Not just from Pokemon but stat shifts, new items, moves, abilities, etc.

If we're going to use this argument one needs to list more than just 1 Pokemon and all of them need to have a good shot at being OU worthy in a space where the suspect doesn't exist. Gen 6 Aegislash prominence keeping several megas, Jirachi, etc is a perfect example.

Also, several pokemon rising because they can beat Pex isn't as clear as well. In any meta for any game when a certain strategy becomes dominant, whatever strategy, or characters, that beat it will also rise. That's just how metas naturally work. But it's whether or not those Pokemon can operate decently outside of Toxapex meta that determines whether or not their value is carried only by Pex.

Going back to Gen 6 again, the relationship between Arcanine and M-Mawile. My memory might be hazy but I remember Arcanine being only being ranked at one point because it worked as a check to M-Mawile when it was dominant before being banned.

For the third point, would those Pokemon stop running those moves if Pex was removed or are their other things they can use them against. Ex: Aegislash and M-Pinsir and Earthquake.

 

[Ricardittos]

I think that what boils down to what makes the pex terrifying is the dex cut, not only makes certain mons not in our choice, also makes other monters downright threats, like pex would be put on control by other top grass or distributed ground coverage that last gen had. Tuning other point is that we can't use Dynamax, because dyna is bad and doesn't help the meta, while the past two generations, we had the new mechanics by our side and could sometimes use them to our advantage.
That is not the main problem, since pex has good stats like shifu and clefable to some extent, but this impacts as well, just take a look at december and january meta, it was frenzy chaos everywhere and most overbearing mons were brushed aside and the mechanic was banned. Later g-darm was banned and soon followed vish. We shouldn't prolongate this any further. I guess pex needs to go.

 

[Talpr0ne]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss any action on toxapex as of now. While it is very close to September, OLT still has it's 4th cycle to complete at the moment. The council could very well wait until all the qualifying stages are completed to look into a pokemon. While it is frustrating that despite the cries for action on pex the council hasn't said anything (other than finch), its very well possible that they're waiting until after OLT to either take action on pex or issue a survey to players to gauge on what is more problematic, pex or urshifu.

I do also agree that there would be no reason to test urshifu if pex also wasn't to be looked at. There really is no reason as to why Urshifu should be tested but pex should be left alone until crown tundra. Both are likely going to be fine when the DLC happens, so it's a matter of finding out when to look at them in addition to solving the cinderace issue. I believe that banning cinderace and doing nothing else only gives us a month without cinderace, because soon it'll come back, found safe in a broken checks broken situation, than if they finally decide to suspect pex cinderace will just get banned again.

Lastly, while I do understand TPP was voicing his opinions, as Finch alluded to it's the metagame discussion thread not the pex talk thread, I do ALSO understand the concerns of many players about how they feel unheard considering how very few council members have given their thoughts on pex, urshifu, or both of them throughout the last few months. I can see the paranoia that many players are facing about the lack of communication from the council in addition to those who already have issues with them about catering to tournament players or what not.

tl;dr: Wait until after cycle 4 ends before we completely dismiss any action on toxapex, no reason to ban urshifu but keep pex since both will be balanced by DLC and many players find pex more of a problem than shifu, suspect pex before retesting cinderace (no reason to not), and lastly yeah most normal players feel a bit alienated from the council due to the lack of communication from most of the members.

I would not be too adamant in claiming that Urshifu-SS will be "balanced" for certain by Crown Tundra, there is not too much else that is new and offers actually reliable ways to take it on. Buzzwole doesn't count, the Tapus are vulnerable to Poison Jab, Landorus can't take Wicked Blow, tank Chomp chips it down but dies as well. Alomomola seemingly isn't coming back so there goes a potential Wicked Blow sponge (albeit one utterly passive that can easily be taken advantage of by Bulk Up). Zapdos-Galar and Moltres-Galar might work as offensive checks but I'll be very surprised if they can take more than one Wicked Blow.

Toxapex is getting more checks instead but (since Gliscor isn't coming back) they all still have the same problem as the currently available ones in that they can't switch on Scald and Knock Off. Garchomp might threaten Pex with an OHKO but it has to tiptoe around Scald so much that it becomes an unpractical check.

 

[FCKNfuego]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss any action on toxapex as of now. While it is very close to September, OLT still has it's 4th cycle to complete at the moment. The council could very well wait until all the qualifying stages are completed to look into a pokemon. While it is frustrating that despite the cries for action on pex the council hasn't said anything (other than finch), its very well possible that they're waiting until after OLT to either take action on pex or issue a survey to players to gauge on what is more problematic, pex or urshifu.

The nature of waiting for "certain" tournaments here to be completed before engaging in metagame changes is a mentality that needs to change and shouldn't be encouraged to begin with unless there is some valid reason I'm not seeing. Why should OLT or any tournament would matter more than the entire metagame at large taking into consideration that these tournaments are essentially played for bragging rights as opposed to actual prizes with value?

Don't really get that logic.

tl;dr: Wait until after cycle 4 ends before we completely dismiss any action on toxapex, no reason to ban urshifu but keep pex since both will be balanced by DLC and many players find pex more of a problem than shifu, suspect pex before retesting cinderace (no reason to not), and lastly yeah most normal players feel a bit alienated from the council due to the lack of communication from most of the members.
[/QUOTE]

Again, people have been stating Pex has been an issue since gen 7 (the more broken meta) and more and more people are coming out now to highlight just how much more of an issue it continues to be gen 8. The Crown Tundra may add some new pokemon that are able to better deal with Pex 1v1, but looking at the scenario like that in a vacuum is going to be the problem it always is when it comes to discussing Pex as it's amazing combination of defensive traits + REGEN allow it to generally circumvent how one would normally deal with a defensive pokemon in a 1v1 situations like that.

Pex is going to be continue to be a problem in this meta and imo it's gonna do the same shit in Crown Tundra and to not even try to address it and just leave it up to hopeful meta changes again just seems pointless and lazy.

And, given the current state of the metagame, we might as well drop Lugia into OU when it gets released and see how it plays out since it's just as crazy (maybe even less so) as Toxapex and probably gets wrekt by Urshifu.

This meta would eat Lugia alive.

All it can do is toxic/pressure stall or attempt mediocre offensive sets or niche specialized counter sets. Obviously it's an ok mon given it's stats.....but meh.

#setlugiafree

 

[musiquepkmn]

This meta would eat Lugia alive.

All it can do is toxic/pressure stall or attempt mediocre offensive sets or niche specialized counter sets. Obviously it's an ok mon given it's stats.....but meh.

#setlugiafree

I'd like to mention that Lugia has a 110 base speed, which is significantly higher than most of the wallbreaking threats in this meta. It can easily run EVs to outspeed Urshifu, and it naturally outspeeds Crawdaunt and with rillaboom it's pretty close. Multiscale would make this pokemon too powerful since at full HP it can switch in to even the strongest attacks in the tier, take 40%, and retaliate with a naturally strong aeroblast or simply roost stall things like Urshifu's Wicked Blow. Not to mention Heavy-Duty Boots means it's essentially guaranteed to have Multiscale. I think Lugia's main thing that I personally think would make it too strong would be it's incredibly high natural speed (for a wall), and it's heavy-duty boots multiscale meaning it can shrug off literally every attack at full hp.

But this isn't a theorymonning forum.


However, I agree extremely with your first point. They're waiting for OLT to finish to start any suspects, but i'd like to (again) reiterate that the majority of smogon players are not Tournament Players. The council isn't even trying to hide that they're catering 100% towards the upper crust of smogon. Quickbanning Cinderace, suspecting nothing, and countless other things. Cinderace especially. The council wasn't willing to listen to players argue and present their points on Cinderace, simply because a small portion of the playerbase would be playing a ladder tournament, and only a smaller portion of that would actually be playing in it with any hope of winning. What if the Cinderace resuspect finds that it is balanced? That means that the council took out a viable, threatening, and balanced threat simply because they were scared that it would mess up OLT, which I'm confident 100% of the council plays in but an extremely small amount of the playerbase plays in otherwise. They would be messing with the metagame for the non-tournament players simply so the tournament players might have a better time. I'm trying to be nice with this, trying to see it from the council's point of view in a way where the non-tournament player's perspective is taken into account but it isn't possible. Is Smogon just for the 80-odd people out there that play in tournaments, or the thousands of players who follow smogon as a whole? I'd really like to hear the council's point of view on this subject. I've commented about this maybe 2-3 times and the council has remained silent, which is uncharacteristic seeing as the council members are so quick to defend themselves against criticism from newer or VGC players.

 

[Monky25]

The nature of waiting for "certain" tournaments here to be completed before engaging in metagame changes is a mentality that needs to change and shouldn't be encouraged to begin with unless there is some valid reason I'm not seeing. Why should OLT or any tournament would matter more than the entire metagame at large taking into consideration that these tournaments are essentially played for bragging rights as opposed to actual prizes with value?

Don't really get that logic.

My point wasn't to defend the actions of the council catering to the tournament community or waiting until the tournament was completed before taking action on a certain mon, I was reassuring BigFatMantis that not all hope was lost when it comes to a pex suspect, as his post outlined his belief that a pex suspect was probably not going to happen before DLC drops, while I said that there's a chance it may happen after all with OLT being close to finishing. I don't disagree with you, the council should keep in mind the wider community rather than the small tournament playerbase but you're taking my stance out of context in regards to the pex suspect.

And yes, pex is getting more checks with the DLC dropping. Could it still very well be a problem? Yes. I'm merely stating that while many checks to pex do suffer the same problems as the others, there will be no doubt that the incoming pokemon will be much better checks to it than the likes of zeraora or urshifu. Guess I should've said "maybe" so nobody can get the wrong idea. Also I don't even consider Urshifu to be banworthy atm so yes I'm adamant that DLC will water urshifu down and it'll likely not be a problem.

 

[okispokis]

The nature of waiting for "certain" tournaments here to be completed before engaging in metagame changes is a mentality that needs to change and shouldn't be encouraged to begin with unless there is some valid reason I'm not seeing. Why should OLT or any tournament would matter more than the entire metagame at large ?

Yeah, this does seem to be a bit of a recurring problem when it comes to suspecting certain mons. At the end of the day, these tournaments only comprise of a comparatively small portion of the community, so I don't think it really makes sense to potentially allow a problematic mon to continue terrorizing the tier just because part of the playerbase wants to keep using it (for some reason). Now, despite all the problems I personally have with Pex, I do want it to get a proper suspect test; however, I'm starting to feel that that may not be possible simply because of how long the wait is shaping up to be. As we currently understand it, the council intends to retest Cinderace before starting with a Pex suspect, a retest that will likely only happen after this tournament has been wrapped up (or at least have finished the current round). So basically, we'd have to wait until that point of OLT (I don't actually follow OLT, so I have no idea how long that's going to take) and wait another 3-5 weeks after that so that Race can be properly retested. By that point, we'll quite possibly be only one month from the expected drop of Crown Tundra, meaning we might very well not have the time to do a proper suspect. Now, it's possible that these plans have changed since that "wait until after Race is retested" post was made, but if so it would sure be nice to know that that is the case.

Given that they're basically the leaders of OU, you'd think that the council would be a little more involved in community discussion. And yet outside of Finchinator we've barely heard anything from any of them. It's precisely why some people were freaked out by TPP's post: we've gotten so little feedback from those running the show in the past few months that even a simple opinion post from a prominent staffer is pretty much the closest thing we have to a serious answer on possible suspects right now. Simply put, I feel this shows that the council needs to start taking a more active role in this. You guys are the most authoritative thing OU has, so even if you're not going to do much a little more communication certainly wouldn't hurt. Leaving the community hanging like this is not going to benefit anyone, especially when part of this delay in action is for the benefit of a select portion of players. Here's a suggestion: why don't you at least start the ball rolling on the Pex suspect (or the Race retest, if you're really going to insist on doing that first) now, and just make it so that any rulings in these cases made during OLT won't affect it? Sure, it's unconventional, but the way the release of mons has been structured this gen has been pretty unconventional as well; I wouldn't be advocating for this any previous gen, but the impending release means that we have a more limited amount of time to fix any problems in the current meta.

Honestly, if this process really goes at the intended pace, then we might as well just quickban Pex and retest it after the next drop. Again, I'd prefer doing it the proper way, but by this point we'll simply end up dragging our heels too much to do so. This whole scenario honestly reminds me of the Dracovish and Clefable situation, where it was stated that the OU council couldn't wait until Isle of Armor to test Vish, and yet wouldn't suspect Clef because of Isle of Armor potentially balancing it. While I ultimately think this was the right call, I still dislike the reasoning behind it; it's pretty obvious they didn't feel there was enough time to do two suspects, which wouldn't have happened if they simply tested Vish earlier like the broader playerbase wanted them to do. Look, if any council members read this, I'd just like to say that we'd appreciate some answers as to:

1. Why is it necessary to retest Cinderace before starting a test on Toxapex? When you get down to it, the current OU environment hasn't changed much from the meta Race left- the one that it was deemed quickban-worthy in. However, if Pex was tested first and deemed banworthy, then that would inherently shake up the meta a lot and might allow some mons to pop up that could actually take Race on.
2. If that isn't still the plan, then what is? Do you intend to start either testing process after this round of OLT or wait until the end of the tournament? I would personally argue against doing the latter, but there may be some factors I'm not aware of.
3. If we do end up taking too long to complete the Race retest, what would be your response in terms of handling Pex before the CT drop?

Looking through this forum, it's pretty obvious that a lot of players would support at least testing Pex. At the end of the day, is OLT really so important that we just can't test anything in the meantime? Whatever the answer of the council is, I feel that it is at least their responsibility to address these frustrations and I hope that we can get them to be more responsive in general.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Additionally, it isn’t Urshifu’s stats, movepool, ability, etc. or a combination of them that makes it overwhelming - it’s the context in the metagame and right now there is a case for it being that centralizing. Even HO teams need to prepare for it with a fast Dark-resist, Sucker Punch is that strong.

Just to add to this, as a player who primarily plays offense only, Urshifu for me is one of the biggest threats for offense teams. Urshifu single handedly killed Screens offense, due to crits ignoring the protection Screens provides. Of course as you previously mentioned, Sucker Punch is a nightmare to play around too

 

[VTMagno]

I really don't understand why you would retest cinderace before suspecting pex. The only reason cinder ran Zen Headbutt was to have a chance to 2hko pex, even though gunk shot was obviously better, being able to hit clef super effectively and cripple cinder's checks with poison. If cinder ends up being healthy for the tier and pex becomes too much, then cinder would be free to run gunk shot and then potentially become problematic again. Also, there's the fact that DLC is coming soon and the metagame is going to become completely different. If we resuspect cinder then we probably won't have time to suspect pex, and I'd rather have a metagame with two potentially broken mons banned then a metagame with a potentially broken mon for the two months left for that

Additionally, Idc if you guys decide to retest cinder or test pex or test urshi or whatever, just please take some action. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I speak for most of the playerbase when I say I'm not particularly interested in OTL. This metagame is most definetly not okay yet we don't see any action on suspecting because of something most people aren't interested in.

 

[Ricardittos]

I really don't understand why you would retest cinderace before suspecting pex. The only reason cinder ran Zen Headbutt was to have a chance to 2hko pex, even though gunk shot was obviously better, being able to hit clef super effectively and cripple cinder's checks with poison. If cinder ends up being healthy for the tier and pex becomes too much, then cinder would be free to run gunk shot and then potentially become problematic again. Also, there's the fact that DLC is coming soon and the metagame is going to become completely different. If we resuspect cinder then we probably won't have time to suspect pex, and I'd rather have a metagame with two potentially broken mons banned then a metagame with a potentially broken mon for the two months left for that

Additionally, Idc if you guys decide to retest cinder or test pex or test urshi or whatever, just please take some action. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I speak for most of the playerbase when I say I'm not particularly interested in OTL. This metagame is most definetly not okay yet we don't see any action on suspecting because of something most people aren't interested in.

I like your line of thought, but there is something that ace has that pex doesn't, checks and counters that do their job most of the time, while yes, pex can be killed when you play around it, you can stick to your style and still check ace without difficulty.