Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v6 (Usage stats in post #408)

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I'm probably alone in this but I'd rather lose to a well played Cinderace than ANY rillaboom. Be it banded or SD grassy glide it puts so much pressure on offensive and defensive teams. Atleast ace had to deal with inaccurate moves and relative frailty comparatively Skillaboom is way more brain dead. Not asking for a ban because it's def not banworthy, just voicing an opinion .
 

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I'm probably alone in this but I'd rather lose to a well played Cinderace than ANY rillaboom. Be it banded or SD grassy glide it puts so much pressure on offensive and defensive teams. Atleast ace had to deal with inaccurate moves and relative frailty comparatively Skillaboom is way more brain dead. Not asking for a ban because it's def not banworthy, just voicing an opinion .
Rillaboom has actual checks and counters though. Things like Corviknight, Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Volcarona, and a handful of others depending on the set Rillaboom is using and the set those Pokemon are using can comfortably handle Rillaboom. I understand that it can be a nuisance, especially to more offensive teams, but there is also a significant upgrade in consistent counterplay. This alone makes Rillaboom a lot more manageable, in my eyes.
 
I'm probably alone in this but I'd rather lose to a well played Cinderace than ANY rillaboom. Be it banded or SD grassy glide it puts so much pressure on offensive and defensive teams. Atleast ace had to deal with inaccurate moves and relative frailty comparatively Skillaboom is way more brain dead. Not asking for a ban because it's def not banworthy, just voicing an opinion .
At least Rillaboom needs to have different sets to beat its checks and counters. Cindarace only needed one set to get past its checks. Now sure, Rillaboom is great (top 5 mon in my opinion), but every well built team will have a way to get around it. Still, I have to agree to some extent where it feels that it is a mon that in prolonged game can get out of control. Especially with sword dance sets that can easily clean up teams . And I feel like its usage will continue to grow since I still feel like people are not taking full advantage of its movepool. For example, grassy seed set is as good as life orb set in my opinion, or at least close to it. And u turn on life orb set just stings while it keeps itself healthy because of grassy terrain recovery. But this can be said for every top tyre pokemon.
 
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You know whats a great 'mon to deal with both rillaboom and its common partner, hawlucha?

Galaraian Weezing. I feel like this mon is still really slept on.

A full physdef set with levitate just laughs at anything rilla wants to do to it. Grass moves do nothing, knock does nothing, immune to high horsepower, 4x resist to drain punch, and can wisp to cripple it (swords dance wont help) or just put solid damage out with sludge bomb.

If lucha tries to SD if your face you either 2HKO it with strange steam or cripple with wisp. Keep weezing healthy and pair it with screens or priority and lucha will never sweep you.

I have actually taken to running rocky helmet over black sludge. Since knock and uturn are so common, it lets weezing get passive damage on mons that knock it or uturn on the predicted switch-in, as well as further punish the attackers that it wants to wall.

Strange steam, sludge bomb, and will o wisp are super solid, the last slot being up to you. Pain split for some recovery, or the new move corrosive gas to destroy items. Zam trying to switch in and scare you out? Gas it on the switch and say goodbye to that life orb/sash! Marowak trying to break you? Destroy its thick club and laugh. Volc thinks it can eat a wisp and setup on you? Melt those tacky boots and remind it what life was like before gen 8.

Toxic spikes could see some use, but with pex being so common, its harder to justify.

Neutralizing gas is good, but I feel like levitate is just an overall stronger option, especially when DLC2 drops and we get mons like garchomp who wont be able to do much to you. Hippowdon typically cant touch you either, funnily enough. You outspeed it and get a free wisp on it.

A great partner for it would be chansey/blissey. Weezing can take the fighting type attacks and knock offs they fear, and in turn, they can sponge the status and special moves that weez doesnt like. Hazard removal is also a huge help, as its easy to wear down with constant switch-ins.
 

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I think Neutralizing Gas is the superior ability as it stands. Invalidating abilities like Regenerator and Magic Guard goes such a long way in punishing otherwise risk-free strategies from being executed. Perhaps Levitate has some fringe viability, but keep in mind High Horsepower Rillaboom fell off with Magearna's ban, now only being used sporadically, and you are going to get hit by Mold Breaker Excadrill regardless (whereas Sand Rush can simply Iron Head, which is still a 2HKO easily if it is offensive).

I do agree that Galarian Weezing is an underrated option in the current metagame; I love what it can check defensively, but this alone is not enough to justify using it. The added viability comes from the benefits of Neutralizing Gas. It is a super practical ability and that goes a long way in making it thrive beyond just as a decent wall -- it is an amazing utility pick when used properly and I think this goes a long way towards making it a legit pick in the tier.

Finally, I do not think you need both Sludge Bomb and Strange Steam; you can pick one or the other and then it gives you room to fit two other options (one of them should 100% be Pain Split) alongside Wisp. There is still a little bit of 4MSS, but it is manageable if you have the right supporting cast alongside it.
 
IMO, I think Volcarona needs to be looked into, especially now that Ace is banned and HDB is a thing that utterly negates its Stealth Rock weakness. Volcarona really have a negative impact on teambuilding due to how threatening this thing is. Thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots, Volc isn't scared by hazards anymore, which gives Volc so many opportunities to set-up. Also, after 1 Quiver Dance, it already can at least 2HKO the entire meta not called Chansey/Blissey.

Seriously, the only sure countermesures to this thing are Chansey/Blissey and Lycanrock-Dust. Not even Pex can safely switch into Volc since it packs Psychic against it. As much as its pains me, Volc needs to be suspect tested.
 
IMO, I think Volcarona needs to be looked into, especially now that Ace is banned and HDB is a thing that utterly negates its Stealth Rock weakness. Volcarona really have a negative impact on teambuilding due to how threatening this thing is. Thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots, Volc isn't scared by hazards anymore, which gives Volc so many opportunities to set-up. Also, after 1 Quiver Dance, it already can at least 2HKO the entire meta not called Chansey/Blissey.

Seriously, the only sure countermesures to this thing are Chansey/Blissey and Lycanrock-Dust. Not even Pex can safely switch into Volc since it packs Psychic against it. As much as its pains me, Volc needs to be suspect tested.
I don’t think it needs a suspect test, since it is perfectly fine in this metagame. It can not only be hard walled by the Chansey line, but it is also easily revenge killed by Water-types like Azu and Crawdaunt. Mantine also hard-counters Volcarona, especially Specially Defensive sets. You can even put Knock Off users in possible “checks”, since Volcarona without HDB restricts its ability to switch in.
 
For what it's worth, Chansey and Blissey don't hard wall Volcarona. Volcarona has adopted Safeguard on bulky sets with Roost, which turns both Pokemon into complete setup bait; they can't really do much to Volcarona with a Safeguard up. To say that they completely shut down Volcarona is false, but to say that they wall offensive sets is correct.
 
For what it's worth, Chansey and Blissey don't hard wall Volcarona. Volcarona has adopted Safeguard on bulky sets with Roost, which turns both Pokemon into complete setup bait; they can't really do much to Volcarona with a Safeguard up. To say that they completely shut down Volcarona is false, but to say that they wall offensive sets is correct.
MANTINE CONTINUES TO RISE IN POWER/HAVING A NICHE

yea Mantine is one of the best answers to Volcarona since it can Haze away boosts or even Defog away Safeguard and then land a Toxic, while Volcarona can't really do anything notable back

+3 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 188-222 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Yeah I've noticed Volcarona becoming more of a threat after the bans. People have adapted niche sets to it that helps deal with bulky mons like Chansey and Blissey with Safeguard. In the right hands, Volcarona can be a powerful threat that puts a lot of pressure on any teams. It is an incredible that works best in mid-game to force in checks & have a better chance of sweeping later. Thanks to HDB, it can come in on predicted doubles really easy.

The new mons that are taking center stage after the bans are Rillaboom (Grassy Slide spam), Zeraora (HDB spam), Dragapult (physical) and sun teams. Clefable has also returned its usual high usage. Most of these mons are bait for Volcarona, giving it ample opportunities to sweep or break holes.
And trying to take it down with priority when Volc is at full can be quite tricky: Azumarill's Aqua Jet does 72-85.5% and Scizor's Quick Attack does 42.7-50.1%.

A really great mon that has risen in usage that can take on Volc is Crawdaunt, its LO Aqua Jet dishing out well over 100% worth of damage.

If Volcarona gets a suspect test, that'd be really good for the metagame imo.
 
This community is so ridiculously ban-happy. 1 week since two pokemon were banned and people are already looking for the next mon on the chopping block without giving things time to settle and adjust. Additionally, there's a massive, meta changing DLC just around the corner positioned to shake things up dramatically. Can we give the game some time to breathe as opposed to setting of the precedent of banning one thing and then immediately seeking out something next?
 
maybe you guys could retest zamazenta? i was inicially thinking of only asking to retest the hero form, but the crowned form also gets killed by important mons, such as volcarona, rotom-heat, alolawak, urshifu, and excadrill. yes, 130 attack is huge, but it cant hold an item. it can get easily walled by tangrowth if it does not carry one of the elemental fangs, and pex, coz wild charge gets only a 3hko on pex. and even with an 120 bp stab move, it cant ohko chansey.
about the hero form, is the same, with the counters changing to alakazam, togekiss, lo clef and azumarill. yes, its faster, but it has less bulk. abt hero zacian, band intrepid sword does not look balanced.
 
At least in my POV, volcarona has moreover stuck out as a top threat in the metagame rather than banworthy in my opinion. While it is true that once it gets going nothing can stop it other than crawdaunt's aqua jet, the same could be said for lots of set up sweepers like unburden hawlucha. While volc is fast, it still gets outsped by many pokemon in the metagame like scarf togekiss, terrakion, keldeo, gengar, hawlucha, dragapult, and zeraora. Volc also needs boosts to ko stuff like mandibuzz, chansey, blissey, and rotom-heat, who can all either put on a timer with toxic or in rotom's case pivot out with volt switch chip to something faster than can revenge it. While the safeguard roost sets deal with the blobs, it has to forego coverage, meaning it can be stopped by other mons as well. Rain also does very well against volcarona, with strong sweepers like barraskweda, toad, and kingdra all being able to deal with it. Volc is a strong mon, don't get me wrong. In every metagame there are specific threats you have to watch out for just because of their strength and splashability. For example, i may have to make sure my team isnt weak to common stuff like rillaboom or urshfiu when i'm building, as they are very common pokemon and having a team weak to them would be a poor decision. They aren't constraining team building or anything like that, they are just pokemon i have to keep in mind while building to make sure i have the best possible team, being able to hold off string attacks and break tough defenses. Volc falls into this category: its very powerful in our metagame, but its not a problem and common counter play does exist for it.

For the zamazenta-C topic from the post above, we definitely should wait until dlc before we retest anything that isn't cinderace, as we still have pressing issues like toxapex at hand. While these checks do work and dlc will give us more pokemon like blacephalon, lando-t, and tank chomp to combat this doggo, 130 base attack and 145 defenses looks pretty hard to deal with if you ask me. You're sticking urshifu's attack on a pokemon with toxapex's bulk with something faster than talonflame. yeah no id like my metagame stable. All in all, we still have many more pokemon to deal with in this current stage and even afterward we have to deal with potential problems from the dlc we're getting as well as retesting pokemon like maybe melmetal, magearna, cinderace (if it stays banned), or toxapex (if it gets banned) who wont be too much with the new drops we get. I wouldn't mind doing experimentation with something like a zamazenta-c test if the metagame gets stale, it cant hold an item (which i just realized), meaning can be a bit more manageable than i thought. It may still be too much, but once we get all the bans and retests out of the way and nothing major is happening in the metagame, i say why not
 
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For the zamazenta-C topic from the post above, we definitely should wait until dlc before we retest anything that isn't cinderace, as we still have pressing issues like toxapex at hand. While these checks do work and dlc will give us more pokemon like blacephalon, lando-t, and tank chomp to combat this doggo, 130 base attack and 145 defenses looks pretty hard to deal with if you ask me. You're sticking urshifu's attack on a pokemon with toxapex's bulk with something faster than talonflame. yeah no id like my metagame stable. All in all, we still have many more pokemon to deal with in this current stage and even afterward we have to deal with potential problems from the dlc we're getting as well as retesting pokemon like maybe melmetal, magearna, cinderace (if it stays banned), or toxapex (if it gets banned) who wont be too much with the new drops we get
and the zamazenta-hero, what you think abt it?
 
Volcarona is fine for now. There’s plenty of revenge killers and hard counter walls for it that it either simply can’t beat at all, gets crippled trying to beat, or limits it moveset only to lose to other threats. Volcarona is either completely useless or god tier depending how well the opponent team built and majority of the time it feels more on the useless side with blissey, mantine, pex, and dragapult.

Pex is way more problematic right now, alongside Urshifu. Volcarona is obviously going to get more tolerable the moment dlc drops with Heatran (and I can go on how its a little overrate atm) but what’s really holding the metagame back from developing at all is pex and that’s not going to change anytime soon, even in the DLC meta we’ll see teams playing carefully and picking answers specially for pex which imo won’t be healthy in the slightest. Pex needs to go for the current meta, and pex would need to go so the next meta can develop instead of us getting another national dex OU where pex warps it (and that metagame has crystals and megas and it still was voted by the council.. meanwhile in OU we’re still doing nothing)

Urshifu is another one that’s problematic for how offensively oppressive it is, in the same way as ace, but I think pex should be tested first.
 
Isn't safeguard volcarona very niche/not very viable at least compared to it's other sets though? Is it really that notable too even consider the possibility of chansey/blissey not being able too hard wall volc in your game 99% of the time,I mean it already has 4 move slot syndrome. That's like saying tangrowth isn't a reliable check too zeraora cause it might run blaze kick like 1 in 100 games just like the very niche/gimmicky safeguard volc.
 

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Isn't safeguard volcarona very niche/not very viable at least compared to it's other sets though? Is it really that notable too even consider the possibility of chansey/blissey not being able too hard wall volc in your game 99% of the time,I mean it already has 4 move slot syndrome. That's like saying tangrowth isn't a reliable check too zeraora cause it might run blaze kick like 1 in 100 games just like the very niche/gimmicky safeguard volc.
Safeguard Volcarona is a legitimately good set that is worth considering seriously, but the point about it being limited to four moves is fair. What's cool about Volcarona is it can pick what checks and counters it for the most part. But there are still a handful of things that handle each variant, which is good for opposing teams.
 
IMO, I think Volcarona needs to be looked into, especially now that Ace is banned and HDB is a thing that utterly negates its Stealth Rock weakness. Volcarona really have a negative impact on teambuilding due to how threatening this thing is. Thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots, Volc isn't scared by hazards anymore, which gives Volc so many opportunities to set-up. Also, after 1 Quiver Dance, it already can at least 2HKO the entire meta not called Chansey/Blissey.

Seriously, the only sure countermesures to this thing are Chansey/Blissey and Lycanrock-Dust. Not even Pex can safely switch into Volc since it packs Psychic against it. As much as its pains me, Volc needs to be suspect tested.
Volc gets beaten by Chansey, Blissey, Mantine, Dragon Darts Dragapult (lives a +1 Psychic), Azumaril, Crawdaunt, Pex, Scarf Keldeo, and a lot more. I haven't done many calcs but I'm sure there are more pokemon that live +1 Psychic. If it's not running Psychic, then a whole lot more pokemon beat it.
(+1 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 224-264 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
Pex can just Haze it.
Even Ditto can be used.
I agree it can just win games however there are many things that beat it, some beat every set, some can't beat Safeguard, but at the end of the day there are just too many pokemon that beat it to justify a ban.
 
Meta Report (posting this for my own benefit not yours)

What to use:

OffensiveDefensive
:dragapult:(hex):clefable:(any - cuz it's busted xd)
:excadrill:(mold breaker):toxapex:(s)
:urshifu:(cb/bu):mandibuzz:(s)
:zeraora:(plasma fists):blissey:(s)
:rotom-heat:(np):ferrothorn:(s)
:volcarona:(*):hippowdon:(sp.def)
:rillaboom:(cb/sd):corviknight:(s)
:azumarill:(bd):xatu:(s)
:ditto:(s)

* = any
s = standard

Situational picks:

Offensive:magnezone::kommo-o::kyurem::rhyperior::scizor::obstagoon::crawdaunt::talonflame::diggersby:
Defensive:skarmory::tangrowth::mantine::quagsire::gastrodon:

Fun stuff:

:toxtricity::mew::keldeo:(cm):jirachi::aegislash::necrozma::weavile:, sun =:torkoal:+:venusaur:, rain =:pelipper:+:kingdra:
 
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Just adding on that rhyperior is a decent Volc check overall since giga drain usage is pretty low as i understand it

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 244 HP / 188 SpD Rhyperior: 277-327 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sorry fam. If that Rhyperior is at 70.3% or lower (accounting for Stealth Rock and minimum damage), even that’s guaranteed to crumble—anything between that and 81.8% is a gamble. Sure you could make the argument that keeping it healthy keeps it alive through the slaughtering of the Flame Moth, but you’re left crippled and basically 5v5, anyways. This is assuming it has Bug Buzz, so while it counters the Bulky Variants much easier, it’s ability to counter is reduced to a neat check once it starts buzzing.
 
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+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 244 HP / 188 SpD Rhyperior: 277-327 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sorry fam. If that Rhyperior is at 70.3% or lower (accounting for Stealth Rock and minimum damage), even that’s guaranteed to crumble—anything between that and 81.8% is a gamble. Sure you could make the argument that keeping it healthy keeps it alive through the slaughtering of the Flame Moth, but you’re left crippled and basically 5v5, anyways.
So Rhyperior takes the hit as well as Dragapult and OHKOs back. That's a pretty solid check by most definitions.
 
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 244 HP / 188 SpD Rhyperior: 277-327 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sorry fam. If that Rhyperior is at 70.3% or lower (accounting for Stealth Rock and minimum damage), even that’s guaranteed to crumble—anything between that and 81.8% is a gamble. Sure you could make the argument that keeping it healthy keeps it alive through the slaughtering of the Flame Moth, but you’re left crippled and basically 5v5, anyways.
Volcarona has 4MSS, so it might not always run bug buzz. The top 2 moves volc needs are fire stab and psychic, and when it also needs QD, Roost, and Safeguard, it might not be confirmed to run bug buzz
 
Against non stall teams, I think Throat Spray Clangorous Soul Kommo is actually super slept on right now. It dismantles offense and even balance builds that rely on clefable to handle standard defensive kommo, since it just gets blown away by plus 2 flash cannon after some chip. Toxapex is definitely an issue for it, but if you take care of toxapex then it really just rips through anything not name Blissey. It also sets up really easily on common mons like Crawdaunt, mandibuzz, zeraora, urshifu. It only really fits on hyper offense, but it is a great check to other hyper offense mons as well as a sweeper itself. It's kinda cheesey, but is a pretty underrated set atm in my opinion.

Kommo-o @ Throat Spray
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clangorous Soul
- Clanging Scales
- Flamethrower
- Flash Cannon
 
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