Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v6 (Usage stats in post #408)

Status
Not open for further replies.
It’s quite crazy that the council quick ban Ace but left Clef and Pex on the table for months and months. And now it is likely that DLC2 will come around before we have a chance to suspect these mons. I guess they will forever be allowed to overcentralize the metagame.

Pex legit wall like half of the offensive threats in OU, and can soft check the other half. It can put up insane pressure AS A DEFENSIVE MON via Toxic, Knock Off, and Burn. Meanwhile it takes 0 skill to use, no risk for putting it in every single team, and promote extremely passive gameplay

Then we have the classic Clef which has like 50%+ usage rate in almost every single tournament (even during the era of Dracovish Gear Ace etc) and high rank ladder. It has so many good sets now you don’t know which one will ruin your day anymore (Trick, WishTele, CM, LO Off, Unaware Boots etc)

Keep banning offensive threats because the few popular tournaments players said so I guess, rip other communities like PS, YouTube, Twitch, etc :blobthumbsup:

The obvious bias and catering towards tournament players are so insane they don’t even pretend it anymore. They can spin it both way to whichever the tournament players want: “Oh xxx tournament is coming up we don’t want to disrupt the meta so let’s not suspect anything” or “we don’t want to make people do OLT and reqs at the same time so let’s just quick ban it” or the classic “we believe we need to quickly suspect this now (without a discussion thread first) because we don’t want xxx mons to overcentralize this tournament”

Ridiculous.
 
Last edited:
It’s quite crazy that the council quick ban Ace but left Clef and Pex on the table for months and months. And now it is likely that DLC2 will come around before we have a chance to suspect these mons. I guess these two mons (Pex and Clef) will forever be overcentralizing on the meta game.

Pex legit wall like half the the offensive threats in OU, and can soft check the other half. It can put up insane pressure via Toxic, Knock Off, and Burn, takes 0 skill to play, and promote extremely passive and boring gameplay

Then we have the classic Clef which has like 50%+ usage rate in almost every single tournament (even during the era of Dracovish Gear Ace etc) and high rank ladder. It has so many good sets now you don’t know which one will ruin your day anymore (Trick, WishTele, CM, LO Off, Unaware Boots etc)

Keep banning offensive threats because the few popular tournaments players said so I guess, rip other communities like PS, YouTube, Twitch, etc
Clef isn't nearly that broken, it's used, yes, but it's not broken. I fail to see how one bit Clefable is really broken. Usage doesn't mean broken.
The sets aren't nearly as broken as let's say, Magearna, because only a few are viable, and you aren't going to lose the game if you incorrectly guess. Clef has and probably never be an issue. Clefable doesn't effect teambuilding that much. I don't have to worry about losing to Clef because it isn't good enough with LO to solo teams, or can solo your team Defensively.

They aren't only banning offensive pokemon, they will ban stall mons if they are seen as broken. It's only now after the bans that people realise how broken Pex is, don't complain about it not being banned already, be patient. They have lives too.
You can't ban pokemon just because they are annoying, otherwise there wouldn't be any stall pokemon, and pokemno that require no skill aren't always banned (Jirachi, Togekiss). They have to actually be broken.
 
I think Toxapex is a large problem in the meta due to a few factors.

1. Lack of power creep. A mon that has 50/152/142 defenses along with an ability that automatically recovers a third of its health from switching+ an excellent defensive typing in Water/Poison mandates a power crept meta honestly. Pex was considered a top tier wall in Gen 7 OU despite the prevalence of Z-Moves and Megas, in addition to a UUBL List full of offensive monstrosities such as Hoopa-U that would be considered Uber if they were released in this gen. Mons like Zeraora that are OU as of now were UU last generation, meaning the offensive power level has went wayyy down. The fact that Specs Magearna was a thing should tell you something; the ubiquity of Scarf Lando would have swiftly ended that last gen. Cinderace would have been a mediocre pick last gen even if HDB existed, as the opportunity cost of not running a Z-Move, Scarf or Band simply wouldnt have been worth it.

2. A wall with Knock Off. Its no secret that Knock Off is one of the best moves in a meta where every mon carrying an item is guaranteed to be stripped of it. Pex isnt the only wall with Knock Off, but due to its ridiculous defenses, it can actually stay in on something that can hit it super effectively and remove its item, as nothing short of a banded/specs super effective attack will be enough to OHKO Pex from full, and in most cases thats still a roll.

252+ Atk Choice Band Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 258-306 (84.8 - 100.6%)

3. Scald. Scald in and of itself was a buff to what already was the best defensive typing in the game. Again, Toxapex is obviously not the only mon with scald, but its by far the bulkiest one, meaning it can throw off Scalds all game in hopes of burning something. This means that physical attackers that technically should have no problem whatsoever switching into Pex have to fear being crippled the rest of the game, which ultimately mandates you to have multiple mons that can threaten heavy enough damage on Pex to stop it from switching in with impunity. This creates a reverse situation of what happened with Mega Metagross in Nat Dex- teams had to prepare 3-4 defensive checks from getting bowled over by it, whereas with Pex, you have to pack 3 mons that can reliably KO it after Stealth Rock chip to stop it from making any progress, which are few and far between and come with their own disadvantages, such as being incredibly frail(Alakazam) vulnerable to burns(any physical attackers) or giving a free switch to one of Pex's teammates(Magnezone)

4. Its mixed defenses. Historically a wall's greatest weakness has been the fact that it can handle either physical attackers or special attackers, but not both. This is what pushed Chansey over the edge in many people's eyes with the Eviolite, as giving undoubtedly the best special wall in the game Swampert's physical bulk seemed to be a bit much. One must not ignore the fact that Toxapex is actually bulkier than Chansey physically by a slight margin, and is not reliant on keeping its item intact. This allows it to invest heavily in one defense and be quite hard to break on the other side as well, which is by far the only Regen wall in the game that can do that. Regen mons such as Tangrowth/Slowbro/ Alo were generally balanced by the fact that their special defense was severely lacking, meaning almost any special attacker could easily come in and threaten them out. Pex actually has a chance to live Alakazam's Life Orb Psychic without investment, for those wondering.

These 4 factors combined basically mean that Pex has no business in the SS OU Metagame.
 

Monky25

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
Agree with the thoughts above about clefable, i feel that just because clef is used a lot doesn't mean it's broken. Its the ultimate glue mon, being able to fit whatever the team needs with it's wish port , utility, CM LO, unaware, or trick sets. It's just a very good mon, but especially since DLC dropped i haven't felt the need to put it on my team nor feel that i will be at a disadvantage should i choose to forego it. Clef isn't banworthy and probably never will be.

That being said, its only been a week since cinderace and magearna have been banned. While pex is still problematic to a large degree, we have to remember that short gaps between suspects can prove to be problematic (arena trap ban and then 1 week later melmetal retest). I'm sure the council will take action on this issue once a couple of cycles of OLT have concluded, and preferably a pex suspect before a cinderace retest because reintroducing cinderace in the meta finds itself in a broken checks broken stance, where cinderace is manageable due to pex being present and its best partner mag not being here. However, pex can get banned later on, making cinderace too out of check and having to reban cinderace. I'm not saying cinderace is less problematic that pex, i think it was the second worst mon to deal with after mag. I'm just thinking reasonably as to why retest cinderace when nothing changes. All that does is delay action on pex and potentiality create a broken check broken environment, which is what we don't want.

I'd honestly like to hear other sides of the argument as to why pex isn't suspect worthy or banworthy. I always want to hear the other side of an argument, and so far the only reasoning has been broken checks broken, which is a faulty ideology. I'm sure myself and other players would like to see action on pex by the end of August/ beginning of September, as it appears to be a reasonable timeframe where OLT has cycled several times and its been a while since any shake ups occurred. I really don't want the only reasoning to not test pex be tournament scheduling, as it leaves a bad taste in many player's mouths about how the council only favors the small tournament minority over the main playerbase. I'm sure that is not the case with the council, but yeah, what are some reasoning as to why pex isn't suspect worthy or banworthy? I can see why its not being looked at now since its only been a week, but soon id like to see what reasoning will hold up a couple weeks from now. This can be answered by everyone. I've heard some really great points about pex being problematic in this thread so far, and i don't want it to be a repeat where people go on endlessly for a pex test like they did with arena trap or dracovish or most recently mag.
 
I personally find it exhausting that the smogon council really only focuses on offensive threats for suspecting and banning. From what I can tell, the non legendary/obviously overpowered pokemon that are in ubers are strictly offensive mons like Dracovish, Darmanitan-G, Cinderace. I personally don't like stall so I'm biased here, but Toxapex feels like such an easy pokemon to slap onto a team and can very easily shut down good offensive pokemon. Both Cinderace and Toxapex both have to be considered when building teams because if you don't have a check for them, your team isn't any good. I think that the stars of hard stall teams should at least be suspected because I don't think it's fair to ban offensive threats just because they can counter stall. And frankly it's woefully boring and tedious to have to deal with baneful bunker, scald burns, toxic spikes and regenerator since it lets Toxapex have a strangle hold the entire match.
 
I'd honestly like to hear other sides of the argument as to why pex isn't suspect worthy or banworthy. I always want to hear the other side of an argument, and so far the only reasoning has been broken checks broken, which is a faulty ideology.
I think that's mostly the point of a suspect test in the first place (as opposed to a quickban) - it lets everyone lay out the arguments there on both sides, and then we ladder to test. Lately, this topic has been used almost like a Toxapex Suspect Test topic because of all the Toxapex talk, when it's not entirely supposed to be like that. We need a suspect test ASAP to get all of these arguments out and, you know, test it. If it's not broken, then it won't be banned after the suspect test. But there is little sense in waiting when an overwhelming majority seem to be clamoring for its immediate suspect test.

And, as I said before, it won't be a problem post-DLC, so waiting until post-DLC or even close to when DLC will drop is silly and a waste of time entirely. Toxapex will not be nearly as big a problem with Zapdos, Thundurus, Tapu Lele/Koko all back. But we should keep the metagame healthy for the next few months at least by suspecting it now.
 
I'd honestly like to hear other sides of the argument as to why pex isn't suspect worthy or banworthy. I always want to hear the other side of an argument,
While I do think Toxapex should be suspect tested, two reasons why I am unsure about whether it is banworthy or not is the benefits it has both in the teambuilder and ingame. From a teambuilder perspective, I see it as serving as a catch-all defensive pokemon that is can fit on many team styles (besides HO). Scald/Knock/Toxic are great utility moves that teams generally want, and having it on one pokemon that can also take most neutral hits and regen off the damage takes a lot of pressure off of handling a lot of the offensive threats in OU. While Chansey can stop special attackers in their tracks almost always, Toxapex can potentially handle both physical and special attackers in one game, allowing for more options in teambuilding since it can take so many hits. Defensive cores definitely benefit from the compression Toxapex provides by taking so many neutral hits, allowing for these cores to be stronger and opening up slots for other offensive or utility pokemon.

As for its ingame benefits, one way that I have seen in the games that I have played is how it can use its ability to tank hits to disrupt the opposing player's momentum. Toxapex can recover any damage that does not 2HKO it and drain the opponent's offensive pressure through stalling, forcing them to switch into a breaker. Otherwise, when Toxapex is in, more midground plays can be made since if the opposing pokemon cannot OHKO Toxapex, Toxapex can start taking items or spreading status, potentially crippling the other team while not being threatened.

More directly addressing whether or not Toxapex is banworthy, usually a team can handle or threaten Toxapex with only one or two super effective moves, and combined with Toxapex not doing much direct damage, Toxapex can still be threatened to switch out or be forced to give Toxapex up. Toxapex can not usually handle threats in the endgame, so as long as a team can threaten it through the early to midgame, Pex can usually be KO'ed by a pokemon like Alakazam/Hawlucha/Urshifu-S/etc. that no longer fears getting statused or loosing its item because the opposing team is otherwised chipped down.

Again, I do still think that Toxapex deserves as suspect test, but it definitely has benefits and ways to handle through ingame positioning.
 
I personally find it exhausting that the smogon council really only focuses on offensive threats for suspecting and banning. From what I can tell, the non legendary/obviously overpowered pokemon that are in ubers are strictly offensive mons like Dracovish, Darmanitan-G, Cinderace. I personally don't like stall so I'm biased here, but Toxapex feels like such an easy pokemon to slap onto a team and can very easily shut down good offensive pokemon.
While that is currently true, that has not been the case in the past.

Aegislash: Banned in XY and SM. Had both offensive and defensive sets, though SubToxic was what put it over the edge. Currently in OU because it was heavily nerfed.

Gengar-M: Banned in XY and SM. A defensive Pokémon in its playstyle, but one that hurt stall the most.

Sableye-M: Banned in XY and SM. The most defensive Pokémon on this list by far, it made stall highly viable and was a nightmare to kill.

Manaphy: Banned in BW and XY. A defensive set up sweeper akin to Iron Defense Corviknight today.

Just an FYI, as you appear to be new.
 

Mushfiq

I COULD BE BANNED!
Clef isn't nearly that broken, it's used, yes, but it's not broken. I fail to see how one bit Clefable is really broken. Usage doesn't mean broken.
The sets aren't nearly as broken as let's say, Magearna, because only a few are viable, and you aren't going to lose the game if you incorrectly guess. Clef has and probably never be an issue. Clefable doesn't effect teambuilding that much. I don't have to worry about losing to Clef because it isn't good enough with LO to solo teams, or can solo your team Defensively.

They aren't only banning offensive pokemon, they will ban stall mons if they are seen as broken. It's only now after the bans that people realise how broken Pex is, don't complain about it not being banned already, be patient. They have lives too.
You can't ban pokemon just because they are annoying, otherwise there wouldn't be any stall pokemon, and pokemno that require no skill aren't always banned (Jirachi, Togekiss). They have to actually be broken.

Thank you for this post. The bold text highlights the exact point I argued previously, as to why obviously broken Pokemon like Toxapex and pre-DLC Clefable keep going under the radar. The very fact that you're criteria for Clef to be broken is that it has to solo teams defensively, is incredibly flawed, given that Clef's purpose is to pivot, check threats and provide support. Clef has too many options to excel at those roles to the point it becomes heavily centralizing and too hard to deal with over the course of the full battle.

That being said, I'm not sure if Clefable is ban-worthy right now, but definitely warrants a discussion, since it clearly was pre-DLC and the two additions that had balanced it out, Mage and Libero Cinde, is now banned.

Once again, I'll urge people to evaluate Defensive Pokemon based on their intended role, and the difficulty in dealing with them over the course of the match, not just on a check/counter basis like we do with Offensive Pokemon.

While that is currently true, that has not been the case in the past.

Aegislash: Banned in XY and SM. Had both offensive and defensive sets, though SubToxic was what put it over the edge. Currently in OU because it was heavily nerfed.

It was mainly used as an offensive Pokemon, and the SubToxic set was intended to get around common defensive counters like Mandibuzz and Hippowdon, not for support or walling. It's SubToxic set along with KS+3 Attacks and Head Smash LO gave it strong offensive unpredictability, which is why it was banned.

Gengar-M: Banned in XY and SM. A defensive Pokémon in its playstyle, but one that hurt stall the most.

Mega Gengar's prowess as a Shadow Tag user transcended everything. It could trap and remove almost anything the user wanted and served that purpose across all builds.

Sableye-M: Banned in XY and SM. The most defensive Pokémon on this list by far, it made stall highly viable and was a nightmare to kill.

The only case. Still that ban was highly overdue and happened after prolonged calls for action. Sableye-M at that time, was worthy of a quick ban far earlier.

Manaphy: Banned in BW and XY. A defensive set up sweeper akin to Iron Defense Corviknight today.

Calling Manaphy a defensive Pokemon similar ID Corviknight is completely and utterly wrong. Manaphy was used as a stall-breaker specifically, with it's prowess coming from the instant +3 of Tail Glow and Rain+Hydration.

Just an FYI, as you appear to be new.

While I do think Toxapex should be suspect tested, two reasons why I am unsure about whether it is banworthy or not is the benefits it has both in the teambuilder and ingame. From a teambuilder perspective, I see it as serving as a catch-all defensive pokemon that is can fit on many team styles (besides HO). Scald/Knock/Toxic are great utility moves that teams generally want, and having it on one pokemon that can also take most neutral hits and regen off the damage takes a lot of pressure off of handling a lot of the offensive threats in OU. While Chansey can stop special attackers in their tracks almost always, Toxapex can potentially handle both physical and special attackers in one game, allowing for more options in teambuilding since it can take so many hits. Defensive cores definitely benefit from the compression Toxapex provides by taking so many neutral hits, allowing for these cores to be stronger and opening up slots for other offensive or utility pokemon.

As for its ingame benefits, one way that I have seen in the games that I have played is how it can use its ability to tank hits to disrupt the opposing player's momentum. Toxapex can recover any damage that does not 2HKO it and drain the opponent's offensive pressure through stalling, forcing them to switch into a breaker. Otherwise, when Toxapex is in, more midground plays can be made since if the opposing pokemon cannot OHKO Toxapex, Toxapex can start taking items or spreading status, potentially crippling the other team while not being threatened.
This part is a "broken checks broken" argument. How "useful" something is for own usage is not a criteria in evaluating a suspect. A Pokemon is banned only on the basis of how problematic it is to deal with and the negative impact it has on the metagame. Whether the suspect in question helps keep other Pokemon in check or not, is irrelevant. If other Pokemon become problematic after the suspect is gone, those will be suspected as well.

More directly addressing whether or not Toxapex is banworthy, usually a team can handle or threaten Toxapex with only one or two super effective moves, and combined with Toxapex not doing much direct damage, Toxapex can still be threatened to switch out or be forced to give Toxapex up. Toxapex can not usually handle threats in the endgame, so as long as a team can threaten it through the early to midgame, Pex can usually be KO'ed by a pokemon like Alakazam/Hawlucha/Urshifu-S/etc. that no longer fears getting statused or loosing its item because the opposing team is otherwised chipped down.

Again, I do still think that Toxapex deserves as suspect test, but it definitely has benefits and ways to handle through ingame positioning.
Again, here's the faulty assumption that a Defensive Pokemon has to be impossible to kill in order to be broken.
 
Last edited:
While that is currently true, that has not been the case in the past.

Aegislash: Banned in XY and SM. Had both offensive and defensive sets, though SubToxic was what put it over the edge. Currently in OU because it was heavily nerfed.

Gengar-M: Banned in XY and SM. A defensive Pokémon in its playstyle, but one that hurt stall the most.

Sableye-M: Banned in XY and SM. The most defensive Pokémon on this list by far, it made stall highly viable and was a nightmare to kill.

Manaphy: Banned in BW and XY. A defensive set up sweeper akin to Iron Defense Corviknight today.

Just an FYI, as you appear to be new.
I mean that's all well and good, I do know the competitive history of a lot of pokemon that have been banned for one reason or another. I'm just focusing on the current meta because that's what I'm taking issue with now and to be fair Smogon has a bias when it comes to stall. There are like endless memes about it lol.
 
I mean that's all well and good, I do know the competitive history of a lot of pokemon that have been banned for one reason or another. I'm just focusing on the current meta because that's what I'm taking issue with now and to be fair Smogon has a bias when it comes to stall. There are like endless memes about it lol.
Yeah and that's all they are. Memes from people who don't know better. This metagame is mostly balance with some offense sprinkled in. Its quite rare for you to come across a hard stall team as there is an excess of wallbreakers that can mow these teams down, even after the magearna and cinderace bans. I'm not arguing that toxapex isn't problematic but the reason that smogon has historically banned mostly offensive mons is because defensive mons tend to not restrict team building nearly as much as offensive ones do
 
Last edited:
I mean that's all well and good, I do know the competitive history of a lot of pokemon that have been banned for one reason or another. I'm just focusing on the current meta because that's what I'm taking issue with now and to be fair Smogon has a bias when it comes to stall. There are like endless memes about it lol.
If anything, Toxapex is problematic because it enables the bulky offense teams that have dominated the tier ever since the Arena Trap ban. It may seem counterintuitive due to Pex's absurdly passive nature, but it can endlessly provide a defensive pivot for these types of teams and virtually mandates a specific list of breakers to deal with it, most of which can be worn down. The idea that Smogon favors stall is a bit strange, as its two best enablers in Gothitelle and Dugtrio have been effectively neutered for four generations in a row, even if retroactively in some cases. Hard stall teams on the ladder are mowed down fairly easily by the weather offense teams which are somewhat popular, as well as bulky offense and/or balance teams that can handle them. HDB (which I love as an item BTW) has rendered many stall archetypes invalid. A better point might be that Smogon favors keeping defensive mons in the tier, which I still disagree with, but would hold more water than saying they prefer stall
 
I'm curious as to whether Sun is going to be better or worse after these bans?
EXTREMELY hot take, perhaps, but I don't think Sun lost that much with the Cinderace quickban. Cinderace was undeniably a staple of Sun teams due to the sheer absurdity of Sun-boosted Pyro Ball, but Darmanitan arguably has a bigger niche than ever now that Cinderace is gone. It acts as a physical take on Charizard's wallbreaking prowess but hits an important speed tier with a Scarf anyway.

It's never truly gonna replace Cinderace, but at least there's a better argument now than ever to run it in Cinderace's place on Sun teams. As long as those teams have Venusaur, they'll be great in this tier.
 
I do like the current bans that took place with mag and cinderace. Ik not very many people like quick bans but I like them if a mon is so obviously broken to just get rid of it so everyone can move on and have a better time playing the game. I do think that mag should have got the quick ban and ace should have got a suspect but I don't mind the quick ban on it. The coverage it had was frustrating with ace and made team building a pain. Mag was too powerful due to the lack of power creep and even in SM I believe it was still suspect worthy.

Now the current state of the meta I am much happier with but not perfect. Here are some mons I would like to talk about:

Pex
Now in SM pex was good but still had its fair share of mons to deal with it like koko, lele, lando, mega zam, etc. Because of the lack of power creep from the dex cuts, pex has few was of dealing with it and some aren't even full on counters. Pex has way too much utility for a defensive pokemon with moves like knock, scald, t spikes, and haze. It's huge defenses with access with regenerator to heal off 33.3% every time it switches makes in a pain to reliably to kill as well. I be full on board to ban pex it is always a mon you have to have answer to or your team just isn't viable.

I would love to ban pex so more mons can thrive in OU. Mons like urshifu rs, keldeo, primierna, would have a better role in ou and could potentially thrive. Thats just something I would like to see because the more offensive options a meta is the better. (Not too uncontrollable HO with unbalanced mons but balanced of course like bulky offense like ORAS was.)

Urshifu
Now I don't think fu is as broken as pex, mag, and ace are but I think fu is a little unhealthy because of your team always needed a decently reliable way of dealing with it. On paper fu looks super broken but it's a little prediction reliant. It could sweep a whole team with good prediction but that'll rarely happen. Fu just is a hassle for the team building aspect I believe. I remember someone saying this like Finch or maybe Blunder I don't remember but it describes Fu perfectly.
 
I am hoping there is a Toxapex suspect something towards the end of the month, so that there can be a fresh healthy OU metagame for September, and we can have meaningful battles with fresh new options as well. Toxapex totally restricts teambuilding in this current OU tier worse than any other pokemon I have ever encountered before. If you don't have one, two, or even three dedicated options to deal with it, then you can't win. It just isn't possible.

If there is no Toxapex suspect by the end of this month then it's safe to assume it isn't getting banned ever, and we'll just have to wait for new DLC to balance it out. There is more than enough support to get it suspected right now, and Crown Tundra is probably coming out mid-November, so waiting until next month is worthless.
 
The amount of pokemon that fails to break past Toxapex is simply astonishing, and basically checks almost the entirety of the game and its own checks (especially the physical ones) are terrified of switching into scald and get burned.

Not only Pex can stall out turns with Baneful Bunker and Recover, it can also run away if it sees a check and hold momentum for later thanks to regenerator. It definitely needs a suspect test as it has a very unhealthy effect on the meta and restricts teambuilding immensely.
 
I think it's sad that people are running future sight Slowbro, Jirachi, gardevoir, etc. It's the only thing that gives their team a chance of breaking through Pex since 5 out of 6 of their Pokemon are completely walled/crippled by Pex.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Even after the recent bans I feel like the metagame is still forced into balanced cores such as the WCoP staple Blissey-Zeraora and the current resurgence of Ditto semistall as a way to somewhat check wallbreakers like Crawdaunt, CM Hatterene and Urshifu. It's a shame the next DLC is dropping in a few months so we don't have enough time to sufficiently stabilize the metagame and - as a sidenote - I think it's better to redirect our attention to some of the big offensive threats or even Toxapex and look at the resuspect of Cinderace after the reintroduction of Tankchomp, Lando-T and some faster pokemon that give us the tools to offensively check it. That being said, there are a few mons that heavily benefit from the current stalemate in teambuilding. I won't go over the obvious ones (Necrozma, Crawdaunt!) but some I feel like have slightly gone under the radar

:jirachi:
Jirachi only needs three moves to completely terrorize semistall builds: Iron Head, Thunder(bolt) and Grass Knot. Other than the uncommon Ferrothorn and the few viable Electric types, there isn't a reliable way to switch into Jirachi defensively and pivotting around it can be a real pain when combined with Spikes (also severely underrated right now). I like to use either Expert Belt to get some easier KOs against Hippowdon, Gastrodon, Toxapex and Corviknight or Leftovers to regain health when bullshitting your way through Blissey, Amoonguss and Kommo-o. An offensive check to Kyurem is invauable too for bulky offensive teams.

:hippowdon::tyranitar:
The limited amount of reliable Spikes setters and the introduction of Heavy-Duty Boots has also made it a lot more difficult to slowly wear down opposing bulky builds. Sand is an underappreciated way to take away health from the likes of HDB Zeraora, Blissey, Dragapult and Slowbro. Especially the combination of sand with Knock Off and Trick - both which have a very limited amount of switch-ins - removing Leftovers and HDB makes it a great tool of inflicting passive damage in a Spikes-lacking metagame. Hippowdon has already proven itself to be an amazing wall and as one of the approximately 5 viable Ground types in the metagame one of the few ways to stop Zeraora from spamming Volt Switch. Tyranitar took a huge blow from the Pursuit removal but it also deserves more credit as the Banded set is extremely difficult to switch into (again: very few good ground types) and support sets, while easy to wall, do a decent job at crippling the opponent early game.

:obstagoon::conkeldurr:
Both took a huge blow with the introduction of Urshifu but ironically also became great anti-meta measures because of it. The way in which Urshifu forces balance into Clef + Pex + Hippo/Ditto/Mandi/Corv cores leaves such builds vulnerable to these two pokemon in particular. Both can break through Clefable + Toxapex with Facade which makes prediction a whole lot easier, aren't revenge killed by Ditto because it won't gain a Guts boost and can switch in easier against the Knock Off and status spamming pokemon like Amoonguss and Toxapex if necessary. Obviously, a pretty big issue with these pokemon is the bad defensive synergy with Urshifu which means they only really fit on the handful of teams that prefer their offensive niche over Urshifu's wallbreaking, but other than that they are great at dismantling bulky teams.
 
Last edited:
I think it's sad that people are running future sight Slowbro, Jirachi, gardevoir, etc. It's the only thing that gives their team a chance of breaking through Pex since 5 out of 6 of their Pokemon are completely walled/crippled by Pex.
It certainly isn't just for Slowbro. It's for unique opportunities to smash a single Pokemon with two moves of different types on the same turn. It's nice that it breaks Pex but I think the primary use is for general checkmate situations. Even in a meta without Pex I could still see Future Sight being very useful.
 
What does the council have to say about people saying they are biased towards tournament players? Often times, when someone criticizes the council or smogon or the like, some council member is the first to respond, but this time it's been awkwardly silent, even though I've seen numerous comments about it in this thread (my own included). If you're on vacation or taking a break, I understand; I was just on a vacation, but some closure for this topic might be pretty cool, so we can get back to the major topic of Pex and Urshifu and the metagame at large.
 
:jirachi:
Jirachi only needs three moves to completely terrorize semistall builds: Iron Head, Thunder(bolt) and Grass Knot. Other than the uncommon Ferrothorn and the few viable Electric types, there isn't a reliable way to switch into Jirachi defensively and pivotting around it can be a real pain when combined with Spikes (also severely underrated right now). I like to use either Expert Belt to get some easier KOs against Hippowdon, Gastrodon, Toxapex and Corviknight or Leftovers to regain health when bullshitting your way through Blissey, Amoonguss and Kommo-o. An offensive check to Kyurem is invauable too for bulky offensive teams.
It could be just me, but I've been noticing a bunch of Rotom-H stall/semi-stall teams.
It's probably mainly there for Togekiss but I think it would check Jirachi very well also?
So perhaps rachi wouldn't be 'great' vs stall, sadly

EDIT: Great post btw SketchUp . And I'd like to declare my vote that I'm in favor of a Pex suspect asap, before the end of the month would be really cool.
 
I'm not really sure if Toxapex should go or not. If it does get banned, it would definitely make sense. But the thing is, Toxapex provides a lot of useful utility in the OU metagame with all the powerful hitters running around. At the same time, it does restrict the metagame a bit.

The two main issues people run into with Toxapex are: the failure to OHKO without a choice item or a boost & having a tough time getting chip damage on it.
Now what I mean by the first part, is that if Toxapex goes max defense, no relevant physical attacker is 100% OHKO'ing it without a band or a boost. Same thing goes if Toxapex goes max special defense.
252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 265-312 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hatterene Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 268-320 (88.1 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hatterene Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 244-291 (80.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Clefable, Mandibuzz, Mew, Hippowdon, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Blissey, Slowbro, Skarmory, Quagsire, Corviknight and Gastrodon can not pull off that same feat.
Toxapex is just too safe to use thanks to Baneful Bunker + Recover + Regenerator + Colossal Bulk. Which makes it difficult to make clean offensive plays. And broken threats shouldn't be checked by broken threats anyway. So, maybe Toxapex should be suspected or insta-banned.
Being able to shrug off super effective hits to scout or get off a status/knock off is pretty unhealthy too. Honestly though, I think Regenerator pushes it over the edge. Not being able to reliably get off chip on a mon that's so bulky on both ends is very tough to deal with in games. And a big thing also to point in conjunction with these points is this: being able to sponge off hits and recover with regen or block the hit altogether with baneful bunker enables pp stalling against necessary wallbreakers that use moves that already have low pp. Like with Urshifu-Dark.
I would agree that Regenerator is what pushes Pex over the edge as it ensures its survival simply by switching out. It does have incredible bulk but it's not omnipotent.

Moving away from above quoted post now:

Pex has a good movepool and is definitely disruptive for a defensive pokemon but it can't run everything at once. Those movesets with Scald/Toxic/Knock-Off usually will want Recover as its last slot or if you forgo Haze, then it will be replaced with Haze. Without Haze, Pex is set-up bait for a number of offensive mons such as Togekiss, Zeraoa, and Hydreigon, amongst others.

Besides, defensive mons are not just here to wall. They usually don't have (or very minimal) attack/sp. atk EVs invested so obviously the only way they can do damage is passively such as spreading status and stalling if possible, using Knock-Off to get rid of items i.e. to cripple the offensive threat in some way so as to contribute to a team. Spreading burns + poison isn't even unique to Pex - so many bulky water types do it and they have been doing it since forever. In that sense, I do not think Pex is overbearing nor find what it does to be unique or so difficult to handle that warrants its ban.

I am not really persuaded by the pro-ban arguments for Pex but of course, there are good points raised. Will just defer to what council does at the end.
 
Last edited:
Rachi is pretty good right now. Good defensive typing and movepool make it a poverty magearna and it can use UTurn to escape matchups it wouldn't otherwise like. Its speed tier is comfortably above non scarfed Urshifu, Hydreigon, and Kyurem, and its ability lets it cheese stall teams into oblivion. Also, since it can rock and learn Tbolt, it's a pretty good anti-fogger since the two most popular foggers (Mandi and Corv) don't like that.

Pex still broken but I have been having fun using this to check its outsize influence on the meta

Slowbro-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 SpD
Sassy Nature
or
EVs: 252 HP / 212 SpD / 44 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Side Arm
- Psychic
- Flamethrower
- Trick

Slowbro's unique typing and balanced defenses let it do some work as a defensive teammate. Trick is a must-have for this mon, allowing it to curse other mons with its black sludge, or simply steal theirs once it eats a Knock Off. Giving your sludge to an opposing Chansey or Blissey or Mandibuzz can quickly put them in a momentum-sink position, and allow other sweepers that utilitize Substitute or setup moves a better chance to overwhelm an opposing defensive core. You can choose whether or not to run speed EVs - I like them to pressure Toxapex, but I also like a Neutral attack nature to power up physical SSA.

Psychic, Flamethrower, and SSA all have offensive utility, with the latter providing a unique benefit against CM/Quiver Dance and a chance at poison to further its evil ends. While it's definitely not perfect, its typing leaves it with very few special weaknesses, making it a juggernaut that can happily eat surprise attacks like Volt Switch from Zeraora or an errant Future Sight from an opponent's Slowbro.
 

Monky25

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
I was looking at the usage stats on babiri.net ( https://www.babiri.net/#/teamsou) to see what the most used mons in the meta are right now and i found some interesting things.
- Corviknight has seen a pretty large uptake in usage, sitting at #9 with 22% usage, while mandibuzz, the premier defogger before cinderace's ban, sits at #28 with only 8% usage for today. I've been looking at the site for multiple days and cov has been consistently been used more than buzz, which i feel is due to the recent high usage in kyurem and the ban of cinderace which makes corv a better pick in the meta than mandibuzz atm.

- Kyurem and ditto are two picks ive seen become really popular as olt goes on. Kyurem is really good in a meta without cinderace and mag, and it's sub roost set has been very popular throughout olt alongside it's classic specs set. Ditto has been seen on much more bulky and defensive builds to counter set up sweeping that could stop those teams.

-Scizor is a pokemon that has really begun to shine after the bans took place. It beats common pokemon like kyurem, rillaboom, clef, and can revenge kill stuff like azumarill, pult, zam, and hydriegon. Its really become popular on HO teams for its ability to stop offensive counterplay.

-Also, new faces are becoming more popular to dunk on classic builds like clef/corv/pex teams. Our crustacean overlord crawdaunt has been a pretty popular one, but stuff like toxtricity, hatterene, and necrozma have also become very popular due to their ability to shit on common cores. Especially with tox and the hat, we keep up using them and well steal them away from UU lol.

-Finally, i've noticed a decline in the usage of several mons. Chansey is becoming less used as more and more people realize blissey is better on balance teams and it'll drop sooner or later. Alola-wak is another pokemon that took a major hit to its viability since it was solid at checking mag and cinderace, both of whom are gone. It's reliance on thick club to do meaningful damage and its weakness to hazards and common types like water and ground means that alolawak isn't too cut out for OU anymore. Urshifu rapid strike is another mon that is declining, toxapex is better than ever which can easily punish choice locked urshifu into fighting or water stab, meaning it has to dedicate a move to beating it. Its pretty outclassed by its dark counterpart and should fall off soon. Kingdra hasn't been used too much as it can be swapped out for other abusers on rain and its been having mixed usages. Its definitely something ill look into more as i'm curious to when it'll drop or not. Zarude still isn't used, its pretty much outclassed by rillaboom offensively and defensively by amoongus and tangrowth.

Lastly, I've noticed that both alakazam and slowbro have been having surprisingly low usage since the bans, which is weird since they'd both benefit from at least one of the bans. Their usage, if continues, sends them to UU. Any idea of why they aren't used too much? I know slowbro is weak to common breakers like zera, rilla, urshifu, and volcarona so it makes sense, but i'm surprised to see zam this low.

All in all, olt has shown new developing trends in the metagame and i'm excited to see how it develops as the tournament continues. Also pex still is a pain suspect it around the end of the month.
 
Last edited:
Lastly, I've noticed that both alakazam and slowbro have been having surprisingly low usage since the bans, which is weird since the'yd both benefit from at least one of the bans. Their usage, if continues, sends them to UU. Any idea of why they aren't used too much? I know slowbro is weak to common breakers like zera, rilla, urshifu, and volcarona so it makes sense, but i'm surprised to see zam this low.
Alakazam is just too difficult to switch in, particularly against Toxapex w/ Knock Off, even though it does more damage to Toxapex than anything else. Plus, it has to run Psychic to OHKO a Defensive Toxapex build, meaning it will either give up Psyshock or lose coverage elsewhere. Toxapex can actually eat a Psyshock and then use Knock Off, which is why Magnezone is used more reliably to deal with Toxapex even though it also doesn't like to eat a Knock Off (nothing likes to eat Knock Off really but Magnezone handles it better than Alakazam would).

Slowbro I think will remain OU, I see plenty of people still using it. It's a very good Teleport user + Future Sight user. Those usage numbers are semi-accurate, but they rarely reflect the true percentages of how the usage will be determined at the end of the month. I would be shocked of Slowbro dropped to below OU usage %. I wouldn't be surprised if Alakazam drops though. It's a bit absurd that Toxapex threatens Alakazam because of Knock Off switch in or eating a Psyshock and then knocking off and regenerating away.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top