Pokemon that disappointed you in-game despite looking good initially?

[Celever]

I wouldn't necessarily mind Delcatty being locked to one ability as a price for being viable, since the only unique thing it has is a weird ability. Practically speaking, it would need more than just stat boosts to make Normalize usable. Gengar in BH ran it but had a ghost typing, Entrainment, and a move that ignores Normalize, and I would expect Delcatty would need at least two of those.

So you’re saying that in order for Delcatty’s unique aspect to be useful, it ideally would become Ghost-Type?

If Delcatty of all things by some mercy finally evolves into our first Normal/Ghost mon that would be amazing, especially if it kept Normalise. And, yknow, Shrodinger’s Cat is everyone’s favourite concept for this type anyway (besides just a sheet with eye holes in it). It could work as well; Delcatty evolves when it gains a level in the PC through something like a Pokéjob. Because it’s in the box!

It could be especially effective if evolved Delcatty also gets a Ghost-Type equivalent to Normalise. Would really show off the opposite nature of its design.

 

[R_N]

shrodinger's delcatty evolution takes different amounts of damaged based on where the camera is looking during an attack

 

[Sonikku A]

Honestly I feel Stantler should be Ghost Normal too, considering dex entries of causing illusions

 

[Magnus0]

Honestly I feel Stantler should be Ghost Normal too, considering dex entries of causing illusions

I think normal/psychic would be more appropriate than ghost. Even in its debut generation, it could learn hypnosis, dream eater, and most importantly, psychic. Meanwhile, it doesn't even learn shadow ball like most other normal types, so I doubt they ever had the ghost type in mind when designing Stantler. There is nothing really 'ghostly' about it, and causing hallucinations is something that's also associated with psychic types (i.e. Musharna).

I think they didn't make it a psychic type because gen 2 already had Girafarig. They even have very similar statlines, so if they had the same typing as well they would basically be the same Pokemon.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Stantler was made back in the days when it was acceptable for a Pokémon to have some of the flavour and moves of a type without having the actual type. As we’ve moved through the gens I think fans have gotten less forgiving of this design philosophy. I guess it’s part of power creep, because as the Pokédex has grown it’s become increasingly likely that a Pokémon with middling stats and just one type will be directly outclassed by another Pokémon.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Stantler was made back in the days when it was acceptable for a Pokémon to have some of the flavour and moves of a type without having the actual type. As we’ve moved through the gens I think fans have gotten less forgiving of this design philosophy. I guess it’s part of power creep, because as the Pokédex has grown it’s become increasingly likely that a Pokémon with middling stats and just one type will be directly outclassed by another Pokémon.

You say that like Zeraora, the Fighting-Type That Never Was, wasn't created literally one generation ago.

 

[CPU]

Stantler was made back in the days when it was acceptable for a Pokémon to have some of the flavour and moves of a type without having the actual type. As we’ve moved through the gens I think fans have gotten less forgiving of this design philosophy. I guess it’s part of power creep, because as the Pokédex has grown it’s become increasingly likely that a Pokémon with middling stats and just one type will be directly outclassed by another Pokémon.

See also: Pincurchin, Grapploct, potentially Sirfetch'd

 

[R_N]

& how can we forget the Florges line, the pure fairy pokemon that literally tend to AND BECOME A FLOWER, and Eiscue, the pure ice pokemon that spends most of its life bobbing and drifting through water

 

[The Destiny Bonder]

& how can we forget the Florges line, the pure fairy pokemon that literally tend to AND BECOME A FLOWER, and Eiscue, the pure ice pokemon that spends most of its life bobbing and drifting through water

Eiscue's concept was pretty noice (pun intended), and it's ability looked appealing, but now that there is a way around it is pretty useless. Just slap on a special attacker an then your good. I still love him though

 

[Codraroll]

I think the case of Delcatty is highlighting an issue with Game Freak's evolving design policies. The concept of catch-and-ditch "crapmons" is more and more abandoned in favour of giving every Pokémon some merit even in the end-game, see for instance Gen VIII where even the early-route fodder 'mons have a BST above 500 (or even the trend from Gen VI onward with giving every single new evolution line a unique move, a unique ability, or both). However, they have also abandoned the idea of cross-generation evolutions, while simultaneously holding onto the idea that the stats, typing and abilities of previous Pokémon are fixed. This leaves some early-generation Pokémon outclassed hard, with most avenues of redemption closed off. Anyway, with some 900 Pokémon in the game (plus another few hundred alternate forms), it's not feasible for the designers to address every Pokémon left in the dust either. Keeping everything working from one generation to the next becomes a challenge in itself.

There's also the issue of preserving the intent of the designer when the Pokémon was first designed, to carry over the niche applicability of each Pokémon. To use an extreme example, they can't give Ditto a movepool or alternate abilities without ruining its gimmick. Delcatty was, apparently, designed around the Infatuation mechanic, and later given another niche with Normalize - would somebody at Game Freak be upset if it was changed to work differently in battle, with the Delcatty we know and lov-... er, acknowledge ... being relegated to a historical curiosity or a transitional stage before a new final evolution that takes the Skitty line in a totally new direction?

And I guess this pokes into a bigger problem. The pile-up of legacy content in Pokémon is becoming too overwhelming. They seem not to want to change anything, scrap anything, or rework anything, and they've built their fanbase upon the implicit promise of keeping everything intact while steadily providing more stuff for every generation. There's so much clutter, so many things that don't work as intended anymore or make no sense. So many things that seem neglected and long due for change (case in point: infertile Nidoqueen, strangely hovering Salamence, countless 'mons and moves built around single-use gimmicks they have no plans to do anything more with, etc.) and apparently, the mechanics code of even SwSh is built upon code from Ruby and Sapphire. The mechanics of Pokémon are screaming for an overhaul, but precisely the lack of total overhauls is what kept Pokémon so popular in the first place. It's really a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation.

 

[earl]

See also: Pincurchin, Grapploct, potentially Sirfetch'd

Don’t forget Galarian Corsola and (maybe) Falinks!

 

[Samtendo09]

I think the case of Delcatty is highlighting an issue with Game Freak's evolving design policies. The concept of catch-and-ditch "crapmons" is more and more abandoned in favour of giving every Pokémon some merit even in the end-game, see for instance Gen VIII where even the early-route fodder 'mons have a BST above 500 (or even the trend from Gen VI onward with giving every single new evolution line a unique move, a unique ability, or both). However, they have also abandoned the idea of cross-generation evolutions, while simultaneously holding onto the idea that the stats, typing and abilities of previous Pokémon are fixed. This leaves some early-generation Pokémon outclassed hard, with most avenues of redemption closed off. Anyway, with some 900 Pokémon in the game (plus another few hundred alternate forms), it's not feasible for the designers to address every Pokémon left in the dust either. Keeping everything working from one generation to the next becomes a challenge in itself.

There's also the issue of preserving the intent of the designer when the Pokémon was first designed, to carry over the niche applicability of each Pokémon. To use an extreme example, they can't give Ditto a movepool or alternate abilities without ruining its gimmick. Delcatty was, apparently, designed around the Infatuation mechanic, and later given another niche with Normalize - would somebody at Game Freak be upset if it was changed to work differently in battle, with the Delcatty we know and lov-... er, acknowledge ... being relegated to a historical curiosity or a transitional stage before a new final evolution that takes the Skitty line in a totally new direction?

And I guess this pokes into a bigger problem. The pile-up of legacy content in Pokémon is becoming too overwhelming. They seem not to want to change anything, scrap anything, or rework anything, and they've built their fanbase upon the implicit promise of keeping everything intact while steadily providing more stuff for every generation. There's so much clutter, so many things that don't work as intended anymore or make no sense. So many things that seem neglected and long due for change (case in point: infertile Nidoqueen, strangely hovering Salamence, countless 'mons and moves built around single-use gimmicks they have no plans to do anything more with, etc.) and apparently, the mechanics code of even SwSh is built upon code from Ruby and Sapphire. The mechanics of Pokémon are screaming for an overhaul, but precisely the lack of total overhauls is what kept Pokémon so popular in the first place. It's really a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation.

Haven't they already removed Mega Evolution and Z-Moves in Gen 8? The Mega Stones code of several Pokémon were there but not fully programmed, likely just item leftovers.

But keeping everything intact also means Pokémon who were bad stays bad, or overwhelmingly powerful Legendary Pokémon like Zacian to be untouched. This can be a bad sign for balance in the future, potentially resulting in even more crazier or asinine battle gimmicks or even more ridiculous power creep within Legendaries or even normal Pokémon. It would be awful for Gen 9 now that it would want to keep all of the underwhelming and overpowered stuff as is.

Look, I understand it is impossible to make a perfectly balanced Pokémon game, but it shouldn't kill anyone to give some crapmons at a time (per Generation) some much-needed buff and keeping the most powerful ones in check instead of constantly showering new battle gimmicks that end up being at the hand of the more popular ones. Z-Moves at least allows for variety, but the one-per-team does make it feels limited and lame.

Believe it or not, that's a problem Pokémon fangames have to contend with, as despite a lot more liberty than GF ever had, I see too many fangames that never bothered with fixing at least several problems for sake of legacy, even those who goes for the B/W route (only new Pokémon, no returning official Pokémon). That's a bit out of subject but let it be known that even the most popular fangames aren't immune to the common problems the official Pokémon games have to deal with.

The last paragraph could be an unpopular opinion of mine since I saw nobody ever said something like that before...

 

[Sonikku A]

Coincidentally speaking, since Mystery Dungeon and Rumble completely are built from the ground up, tiers are a lot different there
Would you ever expect Pelipper or Driflblim to be onto the best late game mons in Sky? Or Raichu to benefit the best in Rumble?

 

[jordanthejq12]

Coincidentally speaking, since Mystery Dungeon and Rumble completely are built from the ground up, tiers are a lot different there
Would you ever expect Pelipper or Driflblim to be onto the best late game mons in Sky? Or Raichu to benefit the best in Rumble?

Ledian and Dustox being legit staples in Mystery Dungeon can count for that, too.

 

[Sonikku A]

Back on mons, this guy

Why its stats are pitifully low AND it literally only has 1 move is a mystery, or a really sick joke. You know you suck when you're Untiered in Gen 2
Worse, it makes getting all letters worthless, as it literally is unusable completely in a playthrough

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

You say that like Zeraora, the Fighting-Type That Never Was, wasn't created literally one generation ago.

See also: Pincurchin, Grapploct, potentially Sirfetch'd

& how can we forget the Florges line, the pure fairy pokemon that literally tend to AND BECOME A FLOWER, and Eiscue, the pure ice pokemon that spends most of its life bobbing and drifting through water

Haha I guess I didn’t express myself very clearly; I didn’t mean to imply that I thought GF had shied away from this kind of design choice in recent gens. Obviously it’s the opposite. It just seems like fans used to be more accepting of new Pokémon that had a clear affinity for a type even without actually being that type. It never really bothered me that those Pokémon didn’t have the dual-typing that most people thought would make more sense. I understand the frustration when it limits a shiny new Pokémon’s ability to compete with the absurdly strong meta, though.

Of the Pokémon listed, the only one I really have an issue with is Pincurchin, but mostly because it needs all the help it can get.

 

[mertyville]

Back on mons, this guy

Why its stats are pitifully low AND it literally only has 1 move is a mystery, or a really sick joke. You know you suck when you're Untiered in Gen 2
Worse, it makes getting all letters worthless, as it literally is unusable completely in a playthrough

Man I remember how much I tried to find this thing after watching the amazing Entei Movie. When I got it and realized how worthless it was, my disappointment was immeasurable.
You don't even get anything useful after getting all letters.

After Wishiwashi has been released, I was hoping Game Freak would take advantage of that mechanic and make Unown something worthwhile like in Movie 3. I tried to think how a similar thing to schooling would work for these things. Stats boosts is obvious as well as having 2 free ability slots, but the problem with Unown is also the movepool.

 

[R_N]

I'd just lean into Unown being a full gimmick

1. Bring back Hidden Power but make it exclusive to Unown and have it work like slowbro-g's attack and also its 100 power now
2. New ability, i dunno call it Resonance or something, that boosts Unown's stats based on the number of Unown in the party.

Someone will bring a full suite of Unown to VGC and it will be great

 

[Codraroll]

Someone will bring a full suite of Unown to VGC and it will be great

Especially when they find ways to spell rude words with them. If somebody's Unown-F and Unown-U were knocked out, I think the referee would call the match once Unown-C entered the battlefield.

Unown are consistently portrayed as being vastly more powerful in swarms, so it never really made sense to use them individually. However, the collection aspect still has some interesting potential. What Unown needs is something like what was done with Zygarde in SM, an aggregate Pokémon consisting of many individuals you have to collect. A full Unown Alphabet could be a pretty powerful Pokémon, maybe even one with an actual movepool to boot.

 

[R_N]

Especially when they find ways to spell rude words with them. If somebody's Unown-F and Unown-U were knocked out, I think the referee would call the match once Unown-C entered the battlefield.

It would be hilarious if they had to softly ban which types of Unown you can bring together.

Unown are consistently portrayed as being vastly more powerful in swarms, so it never really made sense to use them individually. However, the collection aspect still has some interesting potential. What Unown needs is something like what was done with Zygarde in SM, an aggregate Pokémon consisting of many individuals you have to collect. A full Unown Alphabet could be a pretty powerful Pokémon, maybe even one with an actual movepool to boot.

There's an interesting idea too. Each unown gets a move specific to them and then Swarm Unown can freely select which 4 it wants to bring.

 

[BlueRay]

A Pkm that I've found intriguing was Arbok. It had a nice design, and Agatha of the Elite 4 used it too great effect in gen1. Glare and Wrap could take out your Pkm very easily if you didn't have an answer to it. (Remember, moves like Wrap prevent your opponent from attacking, and it's hard to get out of it if you're slower than the Wrap user.)
Also, in the manga, the way Agatha used her Arbok was pretty cool. For instance, it was able to bite another Arbok in half. Or, by changing the form of its chest, Agatha could either boost Arbok's speed, defense, or attack tremendously. So, Arbok works basically like Aegislash, but whenever I'd use it in my teams, it's somewhat disappointing because it's so frail or isn't strong or fast enough.

 

[Scorpio]

I'd just lean into Unown being a full gimmick

1. Bring back Hidden Power but make it exclusive to Unown and have it work like slowbro-g's attack and also its 100 power now
2. New ability, i dunno call it Resonance or something, that boosts Unown's stats based on the number of Unown in the party.

Someone will bring a full suite of Unown to VGC and it will be great

#2 sounds somewhat like what I’d do for Unown, except I’d make the boost (however it’s applied, be it by new ability or, how I’d prefer to do it, by held item) based off of how many types of Unown the player owns so a player doesn’t have to carry 6 Unown with them. The Unown’s stats would increase by +0.1% with each (5X+1) Unown types owned; so for example, having 6-10 Unown would increase stats to 1.1X, 11-15 to 1.2X, all the way to an increase of 1.5X... unless GF decides to add three new Unown forms (incidentally, this theoretical super-boosted Unown would have the equivalent of 97 Speed and approx. 133 SpA. with a Timid nature... but would probs be a glass cannon even if HP was boosted as well)

As for moves, I’d have someone (probably a Psychic) outside who would be able to teach Unown moves, again based on how many types you own. All the ‘standard’ Psychic attacking moves are probably a given (and Psywave would probs be the first move learnable as a sort of development gag, since it was Unown’s sole move in Spaceworld ‘97), and I could see Unown learning Aura Sphere, and possibly Zen Headbutt for those who got an Adamant/Jolly Unown.

...though with this, GF might want to limit when one is able to catch every variety of Unown, much like they did in Johto.

[/lecture]

 

[Pikachu315111]

*Pokes in head* We talking about ways to make Unown better...

Better put this in a spoiler tag...

Moves:

1. I would expand Unown's movepool to include all the "Power" moves: Ancient Power, Cosmic Power, Earth Power, Extrasensory, Nature Power, Power Split, Power Swap, Secret Power, Stored Power, & Superpower.
2. If they bring back Hidden Power: Ditch the IV mechanic, let you pick what its Type (including Normal & Fairy), let you pick its Category, make its Power 50. Bonus Additions: If you choose Physical you also get to pick whether it makes contact or not, you can have it target the opposite defense stat (so if it was Physical it would calculate damage using the target's Special Defense, if it was Special uses target's Defense).
3. Unown Signature Move: Unknown Power (Psychic. Special. Power ?. Target adjacent. (Multi-strike). Power is amount of non-fainted Unown in your party x5; Number of strikes is equal to amount of non-fainted Unown in your party).

Items:
I have an idea for 6 items collectively called the "Unknown Tablets". As long as there are two or more unfainted Unown holding an Unknown Tablet on your team, all of the Unown's non-HP stats are doubled and share their Abilities (explained below). If an Unown knows Hidden Power it'll change into the Type of the Hidden Power and give Hidden Power the following bonuses: increase Power by 1.5x, give it +1 Priority, and it ignores immunities & resistances. The six Unknown Tablets are: Unknown Almanac (Description: History of an unknown year.), Unknown Lexicon (Dictionary of an unknown language.), Unknown Memoir (Biography of an unknown person.), Unknown Poem (Stanzas from an unknown epic.), Unknown Song (Lyrics to an unknown music.), Unknown Tale (Legend from an unknown culture.)

Ability:
Depending on the Unown's Letter/Symbol they have a second Ability. All Unown holding Unown Tablets share their Abilities (as long as the Unown isn't fainted): A/ngry=Intimidate, B/ear=Sturdy, C/hase=Hustle, D/irect=Mold Breaker, E/ngage=Infiltrator, F/ind=Frisk, G/ive=Tinted Lens, H/elp=Regenerator, I/ncrease=Power Spot, J/oin=Protean, K/eep=Shadow Tag, L/augh=Dazzling, M/ake=Beast Boost, N/uzzle=Friend Guard, O/bserve=Analytic, P/erform=Technician, Q/uicken=Speed Boost, R/eassure=Magic Guard, S/earch=Download, T/ell=Soundproof, U/ndo=Natural Cure, V/anish=Clear Body, W/ant=Trace, X/XXXX=Moody, Y/ield=Cursed Body, Z/oom=Compound Eyes, ?/What?=Unaware, !/Whoa!=Super Luck

... Look, if you want to make Unown at least usable they need a major overhaul. I tried not changing their stats, instead working with everything else around them, trying to keep Unown as Unown but also give them a gimmick that elevates them from just being a, well, lamer gimmick.

Unown are consistently portrayed as being vastly more powerful in swarms, so it never really made sense to use them individually. However, the collection aspect still has some interesting potential. What Unown needs is something like what was done with Zygarde in SM, an aggregate Pokémon consisting of many individuals you have to collect. A full Unown Alphabet could be a pretty powerful Pokémon, maybe even one with an actual movepool to boot.

So pretty much you'll have an "Unown Cube" which you can place one of each Unown letter in, all providing a unique move, and then using the cube on an Unown outside the cube to act as an "Amalgam Unown"? Certainly a direction to go if they don't want your team being all Unown. Question, can multiple Unown become "Amalgams" or only one? Also would this effect their stats and/or Ability? I do think stats need to be touched up at least. Maybe going with what R_N or Scorpio suggested.

 

[Sonikku A]

Unrelated, but again, the fact there wasn't a Physical Hidden Power is silly
Seriously, Flareon could have benefitted coverage if it was off his massive atk

 

[earl]

Unrelated, but again, the fact there wasn't a Physical Hidden Power is silly
Seriously, Flareon could have benefitted coverage if it was off his massive atk

Physical attackers have always seemed to have higher offensive stats, a higher BP ceiling for certain types, and Earthquake... at the cost of no Hidden Power and Burns existing