And answer is No, I believe we know that already sadly
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
Wild Areas is the first place when it weems that Pokemon has changed something ! And it's very cool :)
That's an easy fix tho. The characteristics blurb introduced in Gen 4 could still be used but randomized instead of linked to IVs.
You get the flavor without the hassle.
Physical/Special Split was a major gameplay change too.
I don't count Fairy-type because it's really just another type, not something that had a major impact on the engine itself.
That is a big step forward assuming the next entries have free camera almost everywhere like the DLC.
I honestly hope Platinum gets a remake now. It pads out the generation and it has some huge potential with full 3D. Assuming they can figure out how to fix the abysmal draw distance, it'd be solid at worst and excellent if they give up on the RBY-style camera.
It's really hard to predict where the franchise will go now because the DLC is clearly an improvement on SwSh's base game, the Anime isn't as restrictive on its new format, and cycling gimmicks can quell the merch market.
This. Literally this. Remember Gens 5 and 7, two gens where Game Freak tried to be a bit more experimental (not even altering fundamental battle mechanics, mind you) and got shat on for it? The former only finally got mass appreciation for what it tried to do many many years after launch at which point it was too little too late, and Gen 7 still has yet to garner the praise it deserves (The Alola stans will rise someday, you just fucking wait).
Remember Mega Evolutions? It's completely alien to think about nowadays but back in the day there was a significant portion of the fanbase that saw this mechanic as shark-jumping, Digimon-esque shit that didn't belong in the main series whatsoever. When they began to downplay and eventually removed it entirely, what did they get? More complaining.
GF can't win with us whatsoever. In fact, here's my take: With the exception of mechanics alterations I hope SWSH's breakout success finally convinces Game Freak to stop listening to their hardcore fans. We've proven time and time and time again that we have no fucking idea how to design a game unlike, say, the band of absolute chads that is the Sonic modding community
Lets fucking GO brother.
But yeah, pokemon fans hate everything and everyone basically. Ever since gen 5, people have complained the hell out of every single game. The main issue is because most pokemon fans have this idea that they only want very specific changes that they like, but the problem is that so many of those would start a domino effect and then they end up going "why did you change that >:|"
Do you know why gamefreak fell hard on kanto pandering in gen 6? Because the one game that didnt kiss kantos ass constantly got fucking shafted. When did it stop being shafted and recognized as a good game? Idk, like 2, 3 years ago? When we already started the sun/moon era. The addition of as many gen 5 as gen 1 pokemon into swsh isn't a coincidence, its to appeal the growing love of gen 5, 5 (lol) years after its release.
Honestly if i were a big head at gamefreak (i think we need to make that distinction because game directors and workers are slowly losing their grip on decision making nowadays. Its all about that capitalism baby) i'd just ignore everything people say. Its not like it even matters anymore. Pokemon fans are the boy who cried wolf, who complained about good thing so badly that now we have a mess of games and no one at pkmn co is taking it serious
Ehhhhhhh... I'll definitely admit that the fanbase is straight up SM Lusamine-levels of insane. I've seen people say they expected something like Breath of the Wild out of SwSh and that's just stupid.
On the other hand, there's a lot of valid criticism and all criticism should be filtered anyway.
Let's see what that means in practice.
Asking for an "Auto-Run Toggle" in SwSh is just asinine. And while it's a well-known fact that I stan Gen 4, I'll be the first to say that the Underground was a bust. And I liked the digging mini-game!
On the other hand, wanting the return of the World Tournament and Battle Frontier makes perfect sense, but I'll use a less extreme example.
Difficulty settings would be very much appreciated because not only the younger kids can benefit from kiddie gloves and the grizzled RBY vets that GF loves to pander to could use a mode that doesn't use the kiddie gloves on them.
There's just a lot of fair criticism around, and honestly, a lot of it is being heard by Game Freak, even if they're fumbling execution. Take for example some of the main things said about Mega Evolution. "It only benefits some pokémon!" "This pokémon should've gotten a regular evolution instead and now it can't!"
Z-Moves and Dynamax are useable by everyone. Gigantamax doesn't block Eevee, Pikachu, and Meowth from evolving. (Well, technically it does while they have the G-Max Factor, but IoA fixes that.)
They have their own set of problems, yes, but we can't say there wasn't an attempt.
On the other hand, there's a lot of valid criticism and all criticism should be filtered anyway.
Let's see what that means in practice.
Asking for an "Auto-Run Toggle" in SwSh is just asinine. And while it's a well-known fact that I stan Gen 4, I'll be the first to say that the Underground was a bust. And I liked the digging mini-game!
On the other hand, wanting the return of the World Tournament and Battle Frontier makes perfect sense, but I'll use a less extreme example.
Difficulty settings would be very much appreciated because not only the younger kids can benefit from kiddie gloves and the grizzled RBY vets that GF loves to pander to could use a mode that doesn't use the kiddie gloves on them.
There's just a lot of fair criticism around, and honestly, a lot of it is being heard by Game Freak, even if they're fumbling execution. Take for example some of the main things said about Mega Evolution. "It only benefits some pokémon!" "This pokémon should've gotten a regular evolution instead and now it can't!"
Z-Moves and Dynamax are useable by everyone. Gigantamax doesn't block Eevee, Pikachu, and Meowth from evolving. (Well, technically it does while they have the G-Max Factor, but IoA fixes that.)
They have their own set of problems, yes, but we can't say there wasn't an attempt.
You know, there's something funny about that criticism...
A mechanic only affecting a few pokemon makes it easy to "balance".
And a mechanic that affecting all pokemon... does it really? Have you ever seen a VGC match? The Dynamaxers are the same 99% of the games, noone is going to arbitrarly dynamax Butterfree or Pikachu because, why would you when you can Dmax Glacier, Metagross or a Ultrabeast and actually win?
Disclaimer: This was just stuff I've seen thrown around the internet lol.
Nope. We all know that. Megas were busted and mons like Salamence getting a crazy good one was overkill. Z-Nukes were straight up ridiculous both competitively and in-game. Dynamax is so bonkers it was banned from pretty much anything that wasn't VGC and even there it's pretty much a win-con.
But between "Only mons X, Y and Z get this busted thing" and "Everyone gets this busted thing", I'd rather have everyone have it.
In conclusion, to. borrow a phrase said about another franchise, nobody hates Pokemon like Pokemon fans.
Minor correction for the Stadium color changes via nicknames, Stadium 2 had true shinies alongside it. There's a noticeable difference, though both incidentally function the same way in tinting and hue shifting the texture. Also notably, shinier Gen 2 are different than 3 for many mons (Ex, Charizard used to be barney colored until late Gen 2 for the website, then RSE came and he's black), so Stadium shinies seemingly being "wrong" is due to being based on 2 mostly, not post 3
The fact GF has separate models entirely for shinies nowadays is a massive waste
The fact GF has separate models entirely for shinies nowadays is a massive waste
They what now?
Let me guess, they got a Hop model for every single one of his encounters too just like how they had one for each Lillie, don't they?
I hope not. I only know for shinies cuz of an upcoming Repainted mod, and the modder notes it (and takes advantage of it)They what now?
Let me guess, they got a Hop model for every single one of his encounters too just like how they had one for each Lillie, don't they?
I mean, the Lillie model was to save RAM (which the 3DS lacks) in exchange for using more data space (which 3DS cartridges do not lack). It’s not stupid programming, it actually speeds up general load times iirc.They what now?
Let me guess, they got a Hop model for every single one of his encounters too just like how they had one for each Lillie, don't they?
Idk about shinies though, just wanted to dispel the common “800 lillies stupid GF” trope
I thiunk Lemingue's point is about the duration of said moves. If there's something I don't like in PBR is that MANY physical attacks are pretty much the same Tackle animation but with a different visual effect. Even for very strong moves like Giga Impact, where the user slooooowly charges at the opponent and hits it with a boom effect; compared to the main games where the user quickly charges to the foe generating a huge explosion. The latter expresses how much power is behind the moves, and I don't get the same feeling in PBR. Another example is Brave Bird, it looks soooo good in the 3ds games. If anything, I think what is did best were the constant idle animations, whereas in the main games it takes a while for the mon to do them so most of them just stand statically.
This is why I don't like DistantKingdom, dude's schtick is "games bad, animations bad, devs lazy" and is so blatantly arrogant when confronted. "No, I can't be wrong, everyone else are apologists!" Even when he goes too far, he NEVER takes the L, which is not a good sign for me.
Ehhhhhhh... I'll definitely admit that the fanbase is straight up SM Lusamine-levels of insane. I've seen people say they expected something like Breath of the Wild out of SwSh and that's just stupid.
On the other hand, there's a lot of valid criticism and all criticism should be filtered anyway.
Let's see what that means in practice.
Asking for an "Auto-Run Toggle" in SwSh is just asinine. And while it's a well-known fact that I stan Gen 4, I'll be the first to say that the Underground was a bust. And I liked the digging mini-game!
On the other hand, wanting the return of the World Tournament and Battle Frontier makes perfect sense, but I'll use a less extreme example.
Difficulty settings would be very much appreciated because not only the younger kids can benefit from kiddie gloves and the grizzled RBY vets that GF loves to pander to could use a mode that doesn't use the kiddie gloves on them.
There's just a lot of fair criticism around, and honestly, a lot of it is being heard by Game Freak, even if they're fumbling execution. Take for example some of the main things said about Mega Evolution. "It only benefits some pokémon!" "This pokémon should've gotten a regular evolution instead and now it can't!"
Z-Moves and Dynamax are useable by everyone. Gigantamax doesn't block Eevee, Pikachu, and Meowth from evolving. (Well, technically it does while they have the G-Max Factor, but IoA fixes that.)
They have their own set of problems, yes, but we can't say there wasn't an attempt.
I think we should make sure to distinguish between criticism of concept and criticism of execution. The core concept of Pokémon is as fun now as it was back then, and the feeling of a journey of growth with your chosen Pokémon partners is still awesome. The battle system is solid. Travelling from town to town, seeing a big varied region - also great fun.
However, I think it is fair to criticize the games when, even on a decently powerful home console in the late 2010s, the overworld environments all feel like short and narrow corridors, when there are lengthy and unskippable conversations (that usually add nothing to the plot) along every turn, and where basic options to vary the difficulty are even nerfed from game to game. I think it's fair to call out design decisions such as locking the sound settings behind talking to a random NPC, or insisting that menu sounds from the GameBoy days are still kept around or that the battle camera defaults to a position emulating the perspective of the 2D games. When battles still run on code written for a handheld console in 2002, with all those interruptions of the actions to pop up a text box that tells you what you just saw/are about to see.
The games have not changed much, for better or worse. The concept is still good, but the execution seems more and more subpar. Gameplay has not become smoother or more streamlined - rather the opposite, in the overworld (RBY didn't bog you down with endless talk about malasadas or characters telling you "wow you are a trainer, that's so admirable, I want to be a trainer too but I'm afraid of Pokémon" about twelve times. And when it told you to go to a building two doors down the only street in town, it trusted you to find the way on your own). The core gameplay loop of Pokémon is still fun, very fun, but the user experience has regressed in some areas and barely made improvements in others (obtaining Pokémon for competitive play has been vastly improved, but from an absolutely barrel-bottom starting point, and in remarkably small increments given how long they've been running VGC for). I'm playing it and keep thinking "It's 2020 now. So what's this? ... really?"
It's like ... the game industry keeps evolving, while Pokémon doesn't keep up, and it's starting to become rather noticeable. I mean, there are aspects of RPGs where the Pokémon games still haven't caught up to Ocarina of Time yet (freedom of exploration, size of in-game environments, free camera, to name some), and that game already felt archaic ten years ago. Nowadays games on the Switch can feature open worlds the size of small countries (at 61 km2, the map in Breath of the Wild is as big as San Marino. The Witcher 3 is about twice that at 136 km2, comparable to Liechtenstein). Modern games have cutscenes with stunning visual realism, full voice acting, hugely immersive and dynamic environments, intricate sidequests and subplots, and sometimes (although rarely) even motion capture animation. Well, not all games are like that, but the big ones can at least tick off one or two boxes on that list. Game Freak is still coming to terms with creating towns with building entrances pointing in different directions, and I still don't think Pokémon's character models are affected by light sources. We're still seeing Sandstorm buffeting one Pokémon at a time, separate "taking damage" and "faint" animations with a return to "idle" in between, and "Scyther used Swords Dance!" *Swords Dance animation plays* *boost animation plays while Scyther has returned to idle position* "Scyther's Attack rose sharply!". And at best, somebody will move their arms in a cutscene. Between battles, most of the gameplay boils down to "walk down the hallway to watch the next cutscene, which may or may not involve a battle, and you may or may not have a battle or two on the way there."
Most of us play other games beside Pokémon, and consciously or not, we're noticing that those games tend to look better, sound better, play less clunkily, and generally feel like a more polished game experience than what was the norm at the turn of the millennium. Pokémon still hasn't cleared that bar properly. And it's not like its concept is at fault here, it's the way it is executed. Granted, concept and execution are often closely tied together, and it could be that adjusting one will affect the other, but most of the industry seems able to strike that balance. I think it is fair to expect more from games in 2020, and fair to be a little disappointed when, instead of making any of the required strides in terms of polish, the developers discontinue a few beloved mechanics from the previous iteration and otherwise deliver pretty much the same game over again.
To be fair, when you say that you cut half the existing Pokémon for gameplay improvements, I don’t blame people for having high expectations. That’s like telling your teacher that you are going to rewrite your essay from scratch and not include certain topics because you want to improve on existing topics to make them better, only to find tons of errors and those topics hardly touched upon and improved. You can’t expect the cutting of Pokémon, the most important part of Pokémon, to be accepted universally without some major positive gameplay changes.Ehhhhhhh... I'll definitely admit that the fanbase is straight up SM Lusamine-levels of insane. I've seen people say they expected something like Breath of the Wild out of SwSh and that's just stupid.
On the other hand, there's a lot of valid criticism and all criticism should be filtered anyway.
Let's see what that means in practice.
Asking for an "Auto-Run Toggle" in SwSh is just asinine. And while it's a well-known fact that I stan Gen 4, I'll be the first to say that the Underground was a bust. And I liked the digging mini-game!
On the other hand, wanting the return of the World Tournament and Battle Frontier makes perfect sense, but I'll use a less extreme example.
Difficulty settings would be very much appreciated because not only the younger kids can benefit from kiddie gloves and the grizzled RBY vets that GF loves to pander to could use a mode that doesn't use the kiddie gloves on them.
There's just a lot of fair criticism around, and honestly, a lot of it is being heard by Game Freak, even if they're fumbling execution. Take for example some of the main things said about Mega Evolution. "It only benefits some pokémon!" "This pokémon should've gotten a regular evolution instead and now it can't!"
Z-Moves and Dynamax are useable by everyone. Gigantamax doesn't block Eevee, Pikachu, and Meowth from evolving. (Well, technically it does while they have the G-Max Factor, but IoA fixes that.)
They have their own set of problems, yes, but we can't say there wasn't an attempt.
I wasn’t expecting SwSh to be on the level of BOTW, but If they had at very least made open world style similar to Xenoblade Chronicles, I could definitely see a Dex Cut being required. But when Hammerlocke has subjectively less content than Lumiose City on the 3DS, which was on completely inferior software; as well as objectively being more depth to explore, you know something is wrong.
In this regard, I think the games have actually regressed. Sure, in the sprite games, characters were constrained to a grid and could only really walk and hop, but movements were snappy, and it was clearly a representation of what was going on. When someone walked up to your face and gave you an item, you could easily pretend they were actually handing you something and you were taking it. But in 3D, instead of snappy movements, characters have slow tank controls. No one ever walks backward or turns while moving. They only ever run straight forward and pivot in place. And when they give you an item, they stand like six feet away and you both pantomime giving/receiving the item.
The more something resembles real life, the harder it is to suspend disbelief when things look unnatural.
Responding to this part again, because I had a shower thought (and because I think my previous post didn't do a very good job of addressing its points):On the other hand, there's a lot of valid criticism and all criticism should be filtered anyway.
Let's see what that means in practice.
Asking for an "Auto-Run Toggle" in SwSh is just asinine. And while it's a well-known fact that I stan Gen 4, I'll be the first to say that the Underground was a bust. And I liked the digging mini-game!
I don't think the image should be read as "these are the features we want back in the game" (even though that might have been the author's intention). I would rather read it as a list of all the times Game Freak implemented a more-or-less innovative and more-or-less beloved idea for the main series, then walked back on it in the next games instead of expanding on it. After all, Game Freak is known for taking one step forward and one steps backward. These are all the times they stepped forward and then back again to where they started. Neat ideas that didn't leave any lasting impact, even though they had potential for more. Bringing them all back at once would probably not have been feasible, but I think we can all agree it would have been fun to see at least some of them become more fleshed out in future games rather than just removed.
Because when you look at it from a certain perspective, there has been quite a bit of innovation in the Pokémon games ... but most of those innovative features have been one-off attempts that were subsequently reverted, as if the developers are afraid to stray too far from the core idea they had back in the nineties. As if continuing to develop in any direction will take the games too far from their roots. As if any feature invented after those fun days of Gen I development is forbidden from becoming a fixture of the series, because the fixtures of the series were decided by the Original Team and that's written in stone somewhere. In short, as if Game Freak are behaving like purist fans of their own games.
And that highlights another problem: We can be pretty certain that this list is not final. After Gen VIII, there will be another few entries on that list. More features that were really fun and had potential for more, but which will be axed off. I think we can all be certain Dynamaxing is destined for an entry, but what else? Raids? Cram-o-Matic? Nature Mints? TRs? Overworld Pokémon? Wild Areas with a free camera? The ability to skip cutscenes? It's a little hard to find excitement for Gen VIII's new innovation when we can pretty much take it for granted that many of them won't be carried over to the next game, because Game Freak wants to start afresh with the template from R/G again.
I'm gonna be sad to see Dynamax go. At least in Doubles formats, I like it the most of the three "super mechanics" we've seen as of late.
And this is where we get back to the fundamental issue here. Let's take Dynamax for instance: I swear to god, with a relatively small list of exceptions I have not seen anyone give anything but absolute shit to this mechanic. It sucks, it's unbalanced, the gmax designs are stupid, it's just worse Megas, etc. etc.
So what exactly happens should it get junked in Gen 9 or Diamond and Pearl remakes or whatever the hell comes next after all the bitching and moaning? Does the fandom celebrate and rejoice that it got removed? Or, the more likely option, do they just continue to complain, this time lamenting that Game Freak can't hold on to an idea in favor of the next gimmick or that Dynamax was actually a genius mechanic all along?
When I look at that image you responded to, not every feature listed falls under this unfortunate limbo, including some of the most infamous cases like the Battle Frontier and following Pokemon. On the other hand you got things like roaming legends, sky battles and Z-Moves that were pretty much only ever raked over the coals during their inception and heyday for one reason or another (seriously fuck roamers). You also got triple battles and rotation battles, 2 formats that were basically given 6 years across Gens 5 and 6 to prove their worth and never got anywhere beyond "extremely niche" territory compared to the massive popularity of Singles and Doubles. And then there's stuff like Trick House and Mom's Bank which are just like... Huh? Why are they even listed here? Who cares?
As a fandom, the image of us to outsiders and people just casually looking through is one of extreme confusion. We want more side features to be made franchise fixtures and for more radical overhauls to be made to a supposedly aging formula only to throw a hissy fit when anything resembling that actually happens. Instead of begging for Dynamax to be chucked, for instance, shouldn't we be asking Game Freak to try to retool it so it can be a fun, balanced mechanic in anything besides VGC while keeping the essentials? Oh who am I kidding, that requires the people complaining to be constructive and know how to actually design fun game mechanics, and that's just not an option in this community it seems. All in all, a very unfortunate side-effect of the massive size of the Pokemon brand that I don't envy Game Freak at all for having the job of trying to reconcile it all.
Last edited:
So, since we're at it...
I don't mind Pokémon not making major changes. I would just like Pokémon to take what it has, and put a shiny new layer of polish on top of it. If it has to remove a few unconvincing things, well, okay, go for it, but it would still have what it takes.
I'd be more than satisfied if it followed the example of Puyo Puyo 20th Anniversary, which did not introduce anything at all for the series (save for some annoying gimmick modes, and two 3DS-only features two use a custom field background and Puyo skin), but it took what the previous games already had and put them on a greater level. Better art style, better AI, the reintroduction of an old mode lost through years, generally better individual stories plus an epilogue... that kind of thing.
Pokémon does not have to reinvent itself to improve (and especially NOT with that open world garbage).
I don't mind Pokémon not making major changes. I would just like Pokémon to take what it has, and put a shiny new layer of polish on top of it. If it has to remove a few unconvincing things, well, okay, go for it, but it would still have what it takes.
I'd be more than satisfied if it followed the example of Puyo Puyo 20th Anniversary, which did not introduce anything at all for the series (save for some annoying gimmick modes, and two 3DS-only features two use a custom field background and Puyo skin), but it took what the previous games already had and put them on a greater level. Better art style, better AI, the reintroduction of an old mode lost through years, generally better individual stories plus an epilogue... that kind of thing.
Pokémon does not have to reinvent itself to improve (and especially NOT with that open world garbage).
Hard agree with the no-open-world comment. Pokémon does need to change with the times, but open-world games are far beyond their peak.
im not a big fan of 3d open world games. they often are as huge as an ocean and as shallow as a puddle. 2d platformers seem to work better with open world though (hollow knight and ori being my favorite examples), but thats not relevant to pokemon.
i feel like people justs saw breath of the wild and said "pokemon should do that too!!!!", which brings its own can of worms.
i feel like people justs saw breath of the wild and said "pokemon should do that too!!!!", which brings its own can of worms.
Agreed. BoTWs story was incredibly poor, and objectives mostly were aimless. It also failed hard to establish a dystopia, as the NPCs are just...chilling
VS Oot where towns had huge gates to keep out enemies, and the gloomier environmentsthat the 3DS remake ruined, it overall makes Zelda seem like a giant baby
So Pokemon following that? Not ideal
VS Oot where towns had huge gates to keep out enemies, and the gloomier environments
So Pokemon following that? Not ideal
I always found it odd that Dynamax does allow the user to hold an item and still use the super mechanic. Masuda mentioned one reason why mega stones were items was because they did not want Megas to be overpowered. One of the reasons why Dynamax is so busted is because of the item flexibility- choice lock users can break out at any point, Life Orb recoil is reduced, and let's not forget how Weakness Policy is so easy Prop thanks to Doubled HP. And that's before considering that Dynamax can happen at any time. If an item was required to Dynamax, at the very least, you wouldn't have worry thing about Weakness Policy self props or Choice Item breakthroughs. It would still probably be too good for Singles, but it would more healthier for Doubles, where it was intended. I'm just wondering how that mindset changed over the years. A theory I've heard from JPRPokemonTrainer is that the reason why Dynamax doesn't require GF didn't want program more Mega Stones and Z-Crystals- as of SM, there were over 50 Mega Stones, and roughly 40 Z-Crystals, and if they were to add more, it would be almost over 100. Imagine going through a scavenger hunt like that.