That is true, but its because Base Garchomp is OU and you cannot run Mega Garchomp without first running a Garchomp. Zamazenta does not have that restriction, but I still think the Mega analogy helps set a precedent, as non-Megas can be tiered bellow the Mega counterparts.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
As an aside, I can’t stand this line of argument. It reminds me of a used car salesman telling you how great everything is without telling you the thing has been in accident. I often do a little thought experiment and I encourage everyone to give it a try. Imagine it’s Gen 7 and Kartana is a DLC Legendary mon so it doesn't start in OU. We are debating if it should be allowed in OU. “It’s faster than Keldeo! It’s stronger primal groudon but can hold an item! Its got ferrothorn defenses! It has moxie! And yet... it was comfortably OU.
I mean, it can't hold an item, but it is still too much for OU. With incredible bulk, a +1 defense while coming in, and 130 ATK & 128 base speed, max speed Zamazenta will be outrunning mons like Cinderace, Kartana, Urshifu, etc. I understand it can't hold an item, I understand it doesn't have good stat boosting moves, but with insane BST and very respectable coverage, I am not seeing the argument for allowing Zamazenta into OU. The combination of fast, bulky, and hard hitting is a very dangerous one. Just because something is trash in ubers, doesn't mean it is fit for OU.
The thing is, the meta mindset inertia means that IMO, Kartana would never be allowed to drop in my hypothetical because it’s disruptive to the existing meta. People point out all the good and none of the bad in the context of the complex version of Rock Paper Scissors that is the whole meta without any real data.
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I think in-game form transformations should be tiered as the same mon. But stable forms should not. This is an issue with consistency that we have had for a while and why someone was arguing to ban Gorilla tac and not G-Darm. Effectively it is the same as treating Zyg with aura break and power construct differently. This was decided when megas were introduced. While the megas we banned would have been the same because we could just ban the items, the viability rankings would have been different and more accurate imo. This very much applied to the viability of stuff like greninja and chomp who had both forms gain more viability from the possibility of the other. These differences function more like alternate sets than forms and I think should be treated as the same mon. I would like to hear what other people think about this tiering inconsistency.
Example:
Zam-C vs Zam: Different
GDon-P vs Groudon: Different
SlowbroG vs Slowbro: Different
Zyg 50% vs Zyg 10%: Different
GDarm Tactics vs GDarm Zen: Same
Zyg Aura Brake vs Zyg Power Construct: Same
Greninja Protean vs Greninja Battle Bond: Same
Garchomp vs Mega Garchomp: Same
Example:
Zam-C vs Zam: Different
GDon-P vs Groudon: Different
SlowbroG vs Slowbro: Different
Zyg 50% vs Zyg 10%: Different
GDarm Tactics vs GDarm Zen: Same
Zyg Aura Brake vs Zyg Power Construct: Same
Greninja Protean vs Greninja Battle Bond: Same
Garchomp vs Mega Garchomp: Same
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To your point I am more than happy to have it suspected, I just think it would be a lot more overbearing than people think. I see a lot of people saying stuff like; "oh, well it can't break through pex" or "130 base attack isn't that high". Now neither of those are untrue, just the idea of something that is so fast, with great natural bulk, good coverage, and with 394 attack (if fully invested) seems like it could be problematic to me. Now I could be completely wrong, and Zama could be garbage, but I don't think anyone will know for sure how viable it is unless it gets a proper suspect. My only gripe is that I hope pressing issues in the metagame are solved before something like Zama takes up the council's time with a suspect test.
The Zygarde example is the most problematic to me and has never been adequately defended. Zygarde can switch between Aura Break and Power Construct freely. Battle Bond Gren can't breed and can't change its ability so it's sort of its own mon. Zygarde Complete isn't its own thing, it only exists with a Dog or Snake hitting 50% health. In essence, the ability has been banned to preserve the mons, which is the opposite result of people arguing the Libero and GTactics bans during those suspects. In those suspects, pro bans argued that the abilities weren't broken, analogizing Gtactics to Huge Power Azu and Libero to Protean Kecleon not being broken. Numerous times pro ban people said we don't ban parts of mons, we ban mons. And yet, Zygarde lives on in OU piecemeal. Part of its kit has been banned. One has to do some serious mental gymnastics to draw differentiable lines in the policy here.
It has been argued to me that the ban is actually just for Zygarde-C and not the ability (okay it's really the same thing in the end but I'll entertain it). If the logic is that Zygarde-C is its own thing we are tiering differently, why can't we preserve DarmGZ in the reverse? DGZ is extremely similar to Zygarde-C mechanically. There's a hole in the logic whether you look at it as either the ability or the mon being banned.
In reality what's going on is that Zygarde-C is banned (rather than power construct) so that:
1. We don't have to admit we are tiering a mon piecemeal so Dog and Snake can live on in lower tiers
2. We don't have to touch banning Libero or Gtactics.
But this is premised on the falsity that we're not just banning Power Construct. Oh I can't use Zygarde-C in OU? How do I comply with that... by switching my Zygarde to Aura Break in teambuilder... not changing the mon. The logical thing to do in line with all other tiering policy here would be to ban all forms of Zygarde (if we're not gonna touch #2 above).
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I share a very similar sentiment and have felt like the way megas were handled was an inconsistency from the beginning. In my opinion, I think this position can be summed up as believing that things should be banned based on *what they look like in team preview*, no other arbitrary elements. Exceptions being Shadow Tag/Moody/whatever, of course.
I think that if, say, water urshifu drops to UU, it doesn't really make sense that an OU player seeing it will have to consider both formes being possible while an UU player would know for sure that it's the water one.
Would it be convenient? Yes, because in that example that would add something to UU. Would that convenience be worth having an arbitrary rule for that specific case? Up to individuals to decide. Ultimately, all forms of tiering will be arbitrary in some way or form, and I'll happily concede that it's just a matter of opinion where that line should be drawn, but personally, I think it's drawn somewhere that's too inconsistent for my taste.
The Silvally example that people have brought up in this thread is, imo, an actual great example of why there's no particular reason to treat these mons as if they were any different - I'm not the most rabid follower of lower tiers, but anyone who pays even a bit of attention to them can easily notice the disproportionate abundance of Silvally bans, who gets banned from a tier only to come back a month later under a different forme, who then gets banned again, and the cycle continues.... imo it's a total waste of time.
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I cannot see Zama in OU in any form. I would even stretch to say I could see giratina in OU before zama.
130 base attack with 128 speed is something most offensive pokemon would dream of, and thats not even what zama exist to do with its ridiculous 92/145(+1)/145 bulk. Its not even able to be worn down by toxic, sand, and resist rocks.
You guys really underestimate how threating something with offensive stats+huge bulk just juggernauts the entire tier. Pair zama with pivots, wish support, and/or screens and we'll wish we made the move on zygarde instead of adding zama. There's a few instances where zama wins the checks/counters argument but in a 6v6 game it either meat shields everything for its team or has the team supporting it to do the offensive work for them.
130 base attack with 128 speed is something most offensive pokemon would dream of, and thats not even what zama exist to do with its ridiculous 92/145(+1)/145 bulk. Its not even able to be worn down by toxic, sand, and resist rocks.
You guys really underestimate how threating something with offensive stats+huge bulk just juggernauts the entire tier. Pair zama with pivots, wish support, and/or screens and we'll wish we made the move on zygarde instead of adding zama. There's a few instances where zama wins the checks/counters argument but in a 6v6 game it either meat shields everything for its team or has the team supporting it to do the offensive work for them.
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But it has no boosting move,recovery,4MSS and it struggles to beat the most common defensive mons in the tier,so i don't think it would be too much for the tier
Don’t remember if this is the council’s reasoning, but power construct is an ability that is broken, so it’s banned. It’s not a case of just Zygarde-C being banned, it’s also the banning of anything that allows anything to transform into it. Power construct lets Zygarde 50% or 10% transform into Zygarde-C, so the ability is inherently broken, like moody or arena trap. No inconsistencies there.
Does it need one? It has 130 atk 128 speed. Cinderace's boosting move is bulk up, and Zama already has the defense part built in, it can just run howl. Lando didn't need a boosting move to be broken, and neither does reshiram.
Neither does zygarde and giratina. Pair it with wish+port clef and you're golden. Unless rest talk becomes the trend like giratina but i doubt it even would bother when it can do other things.
This is a shit argument for anything. Everything in this game has 4MSS, Its why mega-metagross is so back and forth between OU and UBERs because for a second people think 4MSS actually holds it back when in reality it still has the tools to dent teams as you scout what those 4Ms even are.
So does giratina and lugia. Defensive mons can't deal with zama either, what are they gunna do, toxic it? Chip it with sand? Oh wait. Pretty sure rest sets PP stall defensive mons.
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Zygarde-C is banned from the OU metagame. Power Construct is the ability that lets it convert into Zygarde-C, so it's banned alongside it without being specifically mentioned. Sorry for the one-liner, OU forum staff.
I don't see any harm in testing Zamazenta-C. At least if we try it now and it ends up broken we can put the topic to bed for the foreseeable future.
1.Howl is an absolutely Laughable boosting move compared to every good boosting move,unlike Howl Bulk up is a great boosting for cinderace since it already has a great ability and can forge Bulk up for Choice Band for inmediate power something Zamazenta-c cannot do, and wasting a moveslot for an awful move like Howl isn't a great idea
2.Zygarde-C abuses Rest+Sleep talk in ubers and Zygarde 50% has great bulk for an offensive pokemon and it can abuse it to use Coil+Sub(Deadliest Zygarde set IMO) and Giratina at least has support moves(Will-O wisp,Defog,Thunder wave) to compensate for its lack of recovery and is much bulkier than Zama,
3.No you're wrong,there are a lot of things that don't have a 4MSS,Urshifu-S,Dragapult,Rillaboom,Zapdos,Zygarde,Landorus-I the list goes on
4.These mons aren't meant to break opposing defensive pokemon,their job is to beat offensive ones and Funnily enough Giratina can cripple Zamazenta with Will-O Wisp and Lugia can phaze it out.
My main question with testing Zamazenta-C is: why would you want to now?
This smells a lot like the Kyu-B unban in back in 2012ish, which to this day is looked back upon as an infamous moment in BW history. Not many people would actually argue that Kyu-B is broken in Gen 5, but it was introduced into OU at a time where we were already having trouble keeping up with the sheer number of offensive threats, and Kyu-B just introduced a huge amount of match-up fishing into the game. You had to pick your poison because designing a team that consistently had answers against Lando-I, Keldeo, Torn-T, Genesect, lead Deo-D etc was near enough impossible. It worked out ok in the end but I'm sure most players would have rather we got rid of Lando, Torn, Gene, Deo all 2 months sooner and then looked at Kyu-B later.
Zamazenta-C feels similar to me. This thing is faster than the entire unboosted meta bar Dragapult, Regieleki, and Pheromosa and has defensive bulk even better than Max/Max Steelix without even needing investment. It immediately becomes the best Knock Off switch-in in OU. You'd need a devastatingly bad movepool and attacking stats not to make something work out of that, but Zamazenta's are actually respectable despite the memes. Everyone laughs at Howl / Work-up but Zama gets free +1s on sooooo many pivots and all of a sudden 130 base isn't so bad. Is Zamazenta going to be the best Pokemon in the format? Almost certainly not, it might not even be in the top 10 but I worry that its tough to reliably prepare for when teambuilding is already strained by the presence of other likely ban-worthy Pokemon in the format. Nobody wants to play or watch games where one player had to make the tough decision to prioritise their Cinderace match-up over their Zama match-up, picks Recover over Roar on some mon and as a result get ripped apart by something really dumb like RestTalk Metal Claw / RestTalk Howl Zama, which sits on like 70% of the metagame and just gets to +6 / PP stalls.
Zama is likely not broken, but I think a couple of the other big threats need to be considered before we should really evaluate this thing. Trying to handle all this stuff is tough enough without also somehow adapting my offenses to beat an Crobat-speed Steelix Lucario hybrid, and making my balances all RestTalk Zama-proof on top of it. I feel like we should look into this once the opportunity cost for running stuff like Haze Pex / WW Hippo balances doesn't feel like so much of a compromise.
This smells a lot like the Kyu-B unban in back in 2012ish, which to this day is looked back upon as an infamous moment in BW history. Not many people would actually argue that Kyu-B is broken in Gen 5, but it was introduced into OU at a time where we were already having trouble keeping up with the sheer number of offensive threats, and Kyu-B just introduced a huge amount of match-up fishing into the game. You had to pick your poison because designing a team that consistently had answers against Lando-I, Keldeo, Torn-T, Genesect, lead Deo-D etc was near enough impossible. It worked out ok in the end but I'm sure most players would have rather we got rid of Lando, Torn, Gene, Deo all 2 months sooner and then looked at Kyu-B later.
Zamazenta-C feels similar to me. This thing is faster than the entire unboosted meta bar Dragapult, Regieleki, and Pheromosa and has defensive bulk even better than Max/Max Steelix without even needing investment. It immediately becomes the best Knock Off switch-in in OU. You'd need a devastatingly bad movepool and attacking stats not to make something work out of that, but Zamazenta's are actually respectable despite the memes. Everyone laughs at Howl / Work-up but Zama gets free +1s on sooooo many pivots and all of a sudden 130 base isn't so bad. Is Zamazenta going to be the best Pokemon in the format? Almost certainly not, it might not even be in the top 10 but I worry that its tough to reliably prepare for when teambuilding is already strained by the presence of other likely ban-worthy Pokemon in the format. Nobody wants to play or watch games where one player had to make the tough decision to prioritise their Cinderace match-up over their Zama match-up, picks Recover over Roar on some mon and as a result get ripped apart by something really dumb like RestTalk Metal Claw / RestTalk Howl Zama, which sits on like 70% of the metagame and just gets to +6 / PP stalls.
Zama is likely not broken, but I think a couple of the other big threats need to be considered before we should really evaluate this thing. Trying to handle all this stuff is tough enough without also somehow adapting my offenses to beat an Crobat-speed Steelix Lucario hybrid, and making my balances all RestTalk Zama-proof on top of it. I feel like we should look into this once the opportunity cost for running stuff like Haze Pex / WW Hippo balances doesn't feel like so much of a compromise.
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This issue with this is that Power Construct turns pokemon into Zyg100. Saying you are banning the form is banning the ability. This is a distinction without a difference. And the problem is that there is no set definition of what is a tierable mon. Is it a sprite change? Stat change? Is it by the cart data? That why I'm saying this definition should be made around stable forms. If it does it outside battle= different mon. Inside battle=same mon. This clarifies this distinction with a concrete rule.
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Congratulations, you killed a pokemon with terrible bulk by ou standards less than half the time with a stab CC while going adamant. What are you trying to prove with that calc?
Since apparently throwing out one calc is proof of how dangerous this thing is, lets run some calcs of your shitty set.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 130-153 (41 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 56-66 (17.3 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 225-265 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 129-153 (42.8 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna-Original: 192-226 (63.7 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 318-374 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 154-182 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 123-145 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 224-264 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This was just going through OU and choosing pokemon that were at home on Hyper Offense teams, I didnt even touch UU where stuff like Buzzwole or Aegislash. While you could run a coverage move over Wild Charge or Fangs, you need them for Pex and without Howl you are weak to any decent wall. Even if some of these mons could be beaten by a decent coverage move, you give up your ability to handle anything that is not hyper offense.
Let me say this again, since it is clear that you are missing the point. If you as an offensive team lose to this, it is because you are playing bad. Even if you choose not to outright cripple it, look at the number of pokemon that can tank a hit before you howl, since as we both know, your bad set needs anywhere from 3-4 turns to truly work.
Yes, because who lets a pokemon switch in for free and set up two howls. Outside of T Wave, in which this thing needs to spend even more time setting up and risks paralysis, you know what ends up
Funny, since in this hypothetical scenario it would also take 3 turns to set up.
Lets take a look at your fabled calcs you keep touting.
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 530-626 (137.6 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I'm not sure if you meant to fuck up and calc it wrong or decided to pull calcs out of your ass, but please do not attempt to misinform people about something that they could easily check on the calc. As for Lele...
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Psychic Terrain: 208-246 (54 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
You even are proving my argument. It takes 2-3 turns to deal with your stupid set, just as it takes 2-3 turns to take it down. This set honestly would only work if the meta was hard Webs vs Veil. As for priority, again, look at the number of OU pokemon who can eat a hit from this thing. It doesn't "Kill everything on HO". The calcs that you initially posted show that most of the OU offensive meta can pressure Zamazenta C, forcing it's set up timer to be even shorter. Wow, who would have thought that a pokemon that takes 2-3 turns to set up would have issues with getting dealt with offensively? It is almost like sweepers like this tend to need miracle scenarios to sweep effectively. If you are relying on veil/screens right now, it ain't gonna do it chief.
And if you are going to argue that under screens or with webs it is dumb, guess what? Every sweeper is good with Screens or Webs.
Your set is bad dude. Zamazenta might be a headache for offense, but it is not gonna be due to some bad double dance set. If anything will give Offense a headache, it would just be an all out attacker set. Just by going all out attacker you can take better advantage of what makes Zamazenta Crowned actually good. You have a decent attack stat and a good speed stat, use them. Do not waste time trying to double dance.
From what I have seen, the general consensus seems to be that we should wait to handle it until we see how the meta settles. In my opinion, the only truly pressing problems are Zygarde and Kyurem B. I think that it is mainly to gauge if there is actual genuine interest in the community in bringing Zamazenta down. Obviously the BW Kyurem B parallels exist, but I doubt anyone is advocating that we bring down Zamazenta first. The community consensus seems to be that Zygarde, Kyurem B, and maybe Pheromosa are all problem mons. After at least Zygarde and Kyurem go, we can evaluate the meta further and see if it would be a good idea in the grand scheme of things at that time. If Pheromosa or Magearna or Melmetal or Spectrier becomes a problem, we deal with them.
The main reason we are talking about it now is the survey brought it into the limelight. Let's face it, most of the community does not want to debate on Zygarde and how broken it is, it has come to a consensus. The meta is so centralized on Zygarde and Kyurem B that even the strongest posts on say Pheromosa or Spectrier are left with a big caveat that this might change with the meta. Meanwhile, Zamazenta Crowned is something new and interesting, something different that was not discussed as much before. Naturally, people are gonna want to discuss it when it has been brought into the limelight.
I do agree with the sentiment here that the broken shit in OU needs to leave before we can do a proper test to Zama. Thing is, broken mons really depend on the people you ask. Thankfully, most of us, including the council, wants Zygarde and Kyurem Black gone (which makes one wonder why it isn't already). Would you do the test after these clearly broken mons leave, or do you wait for people to make up their minds about shit like Pheromosa, Magearna, Spectrier, and more?
Its a tricky question to answer. Me personally, I'd like it tested after Zyg and Kyurem Black are gone, as the other mons are not quick-bannable and require tests. I personally expect Magearna to be banned in a suspect test and likely Pheromosa due to how much people hate facing it. I do feel Zama should be tested before we suspect test these mons, though.
I wanted to post something about the meta for long time now and the survey came at the perfect time. I might be a bit late, but I don't care.
: Ban - Imo Zygarde is less broken than Kyurem-B imo. My reasoning is that it often times runs one or two sets which have mostly the same counters and that Zygarde is unable to do much against them. It's still really good/broken with Glare and a Ground STAB move that can hit Flyers and Levitators. It definetly deserves a suspect or something more people would love: a quickban alongside the next mon.
: Ban - Kyurem-B is really the most broken of the bunch. It almost always runs a DD set, but unlike Zygarde it can adapt much better to counter its checks, since you always run Icicle Spear, Fusion Bolt and DD. The last move can be anything.
: Not Sure - I don't know what to think of this. It definetly isn't the most broken mon, but I'm positive it will be. It just deals to much damage and almost unstoppable under Trick Room. I really like Melmetal and I was someone who wanted to see him unbanned in DLC1, but now I think he might be broken in the Future. On the other hand Waters, Zapdos and Moltres are really good checks. So yeah, I have no idea what to say. Time will tell.
: Do not Ban (yet) - I didn't have any problem with Pheromosa at all. This one is more subjective, but Pheromosa is easy to wall imo. Buzzwole, Pex, Clefable, Aegislash, Volcarona, Tapu Fini and to some extend Spectrier. I know it has some coverage moves to deal with them, but Poison Jab doesn't do much to Pex and Buzzwole, while defeating Clef, but Throat Chop doesn't do anything against Clef, while dealing with Aegislash. This might change in the future, but for now, I don't see it as a problem.
: Do not Ban - I forgot that he existed. I think the last I saw him was three days after the DLC dropped. But in all seriousness it isn't broken, it's walled by many mons, has 4MSS and bad speed. I know it has Speed Boost, but base 80 Speed still isn't good. You have to run a +Speed nature to outrun Dragapult at +1 and thus give up on Power. I don't see it has a problem at all. Many mons that check/counter it are really good mons and are almost always used.
: Do not Ban - It is really good, but not broken. It's fast and it's an annoying Regenerator mon, but it isn't unkillable. Nasty Plot sets are probably the best sets, but I wouldn't say that they are as opressive as Landorus-I was. I honestly don't have much to say here, because I haven't used it much or haven't ran into it. I think a reason for this might be that other defensive flyers like Zapdos, Moltres and Mandibuzz + the steel birds check many other mon.
: Do not Ban - I really hate running into this, but the fact that it can't do much against Dark-types, which makes it manageable. Mandibuzz can wall choice sets, but struggles against Will-O-Wisp + Nasty Plot + Hex sets and Zarude doesn't tank the hits as well as Mandibuzz does, but it still does a great job and doesn't fear Will-O-Wisp, thanks to Jungle Healing. Plus Chansey and Blissey ruin it most of the time. It can stay and probably will.
Do not Ban - Magearna is really strong and versatile, but I don't think its broken. Steel types that have either good Sp. Defense (Heatran) or can hit it hard (Melmetal) can checks it easily, until it runs Aura Sphere or Focus Blast and if you try to para it and miss, you are in a world of trouble. But it's low speed and the fact that there are good Fire, Ground and Steel types doesn't make it broken in my eyes.
: Do not Ban - Imo it is better than Blaziken. They both have similiar Attack stats and thanks to Libero, Cinderace also has Fire and Fighting STAB. But thanks to this ability, it has STAB on everything + a STAB priority move. And it is immediately fast, unlike Blaziken, who has to run Protect for a garantied boost, therefore it can use all of his 4 Moveslots. It's really balanced and I don't see it getting banned.
: Do not Ban - I hated this thing in DLC1, but now with so many great Grounds and Electrics, I have nothing to fear. It still walls mons, spread status and prevents set-up, but now it's way more manageable. Some set-up sweepers can take advantage of it if they are status proof, have taunt or hit it for big damage. So yeah, as much as I hated it, it's not broken and it will stay.
: Do not Unban, but I don't mind a suspect - Yeah, no thanks. It has really good stats, +1 defense on switch-in, the ability to run any item and really good speed. Melmetal has good bulk, but is slow and Pheromosa is fast but fragile. Zamazenta is pretty much a mixture of them both, albeit with less bulk than the former and less speed than the latter. I don't want to see it honestly, but I don't mind a suspect, maybe it won't as bad as I think.
: Unban - Unlike his other, and canonically weaker, forme, I think Zamazenta-C isn't as broken as one might think. Sure it has better defenses, but lower speed and without an ability to hold an item and thus lower offenses or less longevity. It would be a great check to some physical attackers and it is walled by many things due to 4MSS and a unboosted 130 attack stat. I really think that we should unban it or at least give it a suspect.
: Ban - Imo Zygarde is less broken than Kyurem-B imo. My reasoning is that it often times runs one or two sets which have mostly the same counters and that Zygarde is unable to do much against them. It's still really good/broken with Glare and a Ground STAB move that can hit Flyers and Levitators. It definetly deserves a suspect or something more people would love: a quickban alongside the next mon.: Ban - Kyurem-B is really the most broken of the bunch. It almost always runs a DD set, but unlike Zygarde it can adapt much better to counter its checks, since you always run Icicle Spear, Fusion Bolt and DD. The last move can be anything.- Roost: It already has good bulk and with Roost and HDB its harder to wear down.
- Substitute: Avoiding status for a physical sweeper is very good. And thanks to its good bulk, many passive mons can't break the sub. Just run 56 EVs in HP to set-up on Blissey and Chansey.
- Earth Power: Do not forget that, since its a cover-legend, it has impressive stats. 170 base Attack and 120 base Sp. Attack is really good. With Earth Power you can beat Steels more easily like Heatran, Melmetal and Magnezone.
- Dual Wingbeat: Honestly just here to beat Buzzwole. When Kyurem-Black sets-up on the switch it run either deal a lot of damage or OHKO Buzzwole. Or if you're unlucky like me, your Buzzwole dies to a +1 Power Herb Freeze Shock Crit.
- Iron Head: A easier way to beat Fairies, but honestly I don't see this move being used, but I thought I'd mention it.
: Not Sure - I don't know what to think of this. It definetly isn't the most broken mon, but I'm positive it will be. It just deals to much damage and almost unstoppable under Trick Room. I really like Melmetal and I was someone who wanted to see him unbanned in DLC1, but now I think he might be broken in the Future. On the other hand Waters, Zapdos and Moltres are really good checks. So yeah, I have no idea what to say. Time will tell.: Do not Ban (yet) - I didn't have any problem with Pheromosa at all. This one is more subjective, but Pheromosa is easy to wall imo. Buzzwole, Pex, Clefable, Aegislash, Volcarona, Tapu Fini and to some extend Spectrier. I know it has some coverage moves to deal with them, but Poison Jab doesn't do much to Pex and Buzzwole, while defeating Clef, but Throat Chop doesn't do anything against Clef, while dealing with Aegislash. This might change in the future, but for now, I don't see it as a problem.: Do not Ban - I forgot that he existed. I think the last I saw him was three days after the DLC dropped. But in all seriousness it isn't broken, it's walled by many mons, has 4MSS and bad speed. I know it has Speed Boost, but base 80 Speed still isn't good. You have to run a +Speed nature to outrun Dragapult at +1 and thus give up on Power. I don't see it has a problem at all. Many mons that check/counter it are really good mons and are almost always used.: Do not Ban - It is really good, but not broken. It's fast and it's an annoying Regenerator mon, but it isn't unkillable. Nasty Plot sets are probably the best sets, but I wouldn't say that they are as opressive as Landorus-I was. I honestly don't have much to say here, because I haven't used it much or haven't ran into it. I think a reason for this might be that other defensive flyers like Zapdos, Moltres and Mandibuzz + the steel birds check many other mon.: Do not Ban - I really hate running into this, but the fact that it can't do much against Dark-types, which makes it manageable. Mandibuzz can wall choice sets, but struggles against Will-O-Wisp + Nasty Plot + Hex sets and Zarude doesn't tank the hits as well as Mandibuzz does, but it still does a great job and doesn't fear Will-O-Wisp, thanks to Jungle Healing. Plus Chansey and Blissey ruin it most of the time. It can stay and probably will. Do not Ban - Magearna is really strong and versatile, but I don't think its broken. Steel types that have either good Sp. Defense (Heatran) or can hit it hard (Melmetal) can checks it easily, until it runs Aura Sphere or Focus Blast and if you try to para it and miss, you are in a world of trouble. But it's low speed and the fact that there are good Fire, Ground and Steel types doesn't make it broken in my eyes.: Do not Ban - Imo it is better than Blaziken. They both have similiar Attack stats and thanks to Libero, Cinderace also has Fire and Fighting STAB. But thanks to this ability, it has STAB on everything + a STAB priority move. And it is immediately fast, unlike Blaziken, who has to run Protect for a garantied boost, therefore it can use all of his 4 Moveslots. It's really balanced and I don't see it getting banned.: Do not Ban - I hated this thing in DLC1, but now with so many great Grounds and Electrics, I have nothing to fear. It still walls mons, spread status and prevents set-up, but now it's way more manageable. Some set-up sweepers can take advantage of it if they are status proof, have taunt or hit it for big damage. So yeah, as much as I hated it, it's not broken and it will stay.: Do not Unban, but I don't mind a suspect - Yeah, no thanks. It has really good stats, +1 defense on switch-in, the ability to run any item and really good speed. Melmetal has good bulk, but is slow and Pheromosa is fast but fragile. Zamazenta is pretty much a mixture of them both, albeit with less bulk than the former and less speed than the latter. I don't want to see it honestly, but I don't mind a suspect, maybe it won't as bad as I think.: Unban - Unlike his other, and canonically weaker, forme, I think Zamazenta-C isn't as broken as one might think. Sure it has better defenses, but lower speed and without an ability to hold an item and thus lower offenses or less longevity. It would be a great check to some physical attackers and it is walled by many things due to 4MSS and a unboosted 130 attack stat. I really think that we should unban it or at least give it a suspect.
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If Mandibuzz gets burned on the switch by Specs Will-o-Wisp, then a Choice Specs Hex from Modest Spectrier is a guaranteed 2HKO considering that due to the status mechanics anything burned will never be at above 94% HP at the start of a turn and the calculations below take that fact into account
252+ SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Mandibuzz: 188-222 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
Even if it's Timid that's still a roll in your favor
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Mandibuzz: 171-202 (40.4 - 47.7%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
While this means that it can stall out the Hex in a 1 v 1 situation, it cannot ever switch into it safely if it is statused, and since it can spread the status itself then switching in your dark type is and of itself is a risk because all except Obstagoon don't enjoy being crippled or chipped by burn. And this is just assuming that it's burned, if it's poisoned by something like Toxapex Landorus or Swampert then it's even more unable to switch into Sp
Sorry for this huge addition to the post:
I will also like to add that I disagree and I think Spectrier is unhealthy. It's great speed, high special attack on par with Chandelure and slightly lower than our Ultra Beast Clown friend, the ability to gain even more special attack with each successive kill, the ability to boost it's special attack to monstrous levels even without getting a kill, decent special bulk for something this fast and strong, amazing Ghost STAB in a meta with few Ghost resistant Pokemon in OU, and the ability to cripple all of those viable Ghost resistant Pokemon except only fat normal types like Blissey (which is the only OU nromal type) is something way too much for the tier to handle right now. I've been forced to run Spectrier answers on my teams not because I would have wanted to but because I have to, and even then it doesn't always work. I've had my Specially Defensive Tyranitars that are supposed to be an easy switch simply crippled by Burn and unable to really pose much of a threat back to the rest of the team, forcing me to adapt and run Tyranitar with only special attacks just because being burned by something it is supposed to safely check is such a crippling thing for it
In general it's snowballing effect punishing every kill it gets combined with being able to cripple it's answers with burn and eventually break through them with hex against anything but a normal type with recovery such as Blissey, which are running Shadow Ball over a crucial move JUST FOR SPECTRIER, and Obstagoon, which I have seen people run SPECIFICALLY for Spectrier, while also outspeeding the vast majority of the OU metagame. Despite a very limited movepool of attacks, moves such as Nasty Plot Substitute Taunt Calm Mind Will-o-Wisp and Disable make it more difficult to deal with, It can run any combination of these moves with it's STAB Shadow Ball or Hex, and do it very well. (Taunt Disable for instance lets it force Blissey to use struggle, allowing you to get a free hit, burn, or boost of on something depending on your last 2 moves) while choiced sets can cleave through an entire team that lacks a solid ghost resist and even if they have one they are put into a risky position anyways if they get burned on the switch. While it does have weaknesses to strong physical priority like Sucker Punch or Grassy Glide, none of the users of these moves can actually switch in safely due to a very likely burn, and Substitute variants can potentially thwart their attempts as well. I go so far as to even say that in my opinion Spectrier is more broken than things like Pheromosa, and should be banned if the opportunity presents itself.
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I always run enough EVs to survive 2 Timid Hexes after burns, but you can't be prepared for everything
I wasn't going to reply to this... But...
Like: "That set is not very good because X, Y, Z. Instead, this set works better because..." and so on. For real I've said enough at this point but anyway...
You know the exact calc I was referring to. It was in my post. Who's misinforming here? Yes, banded STAB 180 BP Fire move kills a Steel, shocker. Non-Banded is 48% to OHKO after Rocks.
...So now 4-5 posts in of you saying how shitty the set is and making snide comments, you mention in passing what you think is a better alternative??? You know that is how you turn discussions into arguments. Your points are valid, but spoiler alert: it's easier to get people to listen to them if you suggest alternatives.
Like: "That set is not very good because X, Y, Z. Instead, this set works better because..." and so on. For real I've said enough at this point but anyway...
Aren't these just slightly passive walls? Try these same calcs versus some strong offensive mons. Great that you assume that on Screens it bullies offense, but thats near every set up sweeper. Cloyster behind Screens can tank near any physical hit in the game, but no one is arguing that its broken.
Not to mention that this Pokémon with both Agility and Work Up has can't clean with just CC + one coverage move. With no Work Up it struggles to beat down anything with solid bulk
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 162-192 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Instead of arguing against Zamazenta using the most perfect of parameters, at least be realistic. Here is an example though, using your set and your star screens support.
Zamazenta faces a Cinderace while its behind screens. You knowing you can take any one hit, go for an Agility while Cinderace does 46% with HJK. Then it switches into a Landorus-T as you attack. You take RH chip from CC, and are threatened by a knock out from EQ. Even if in this scenario, you do skillfully predict an Ice Fang, (you won't KO in one hit btw), you have a -1 Attack Zamazenta with roughly 37% health left. Its not gonna steamroll the opposing team.
That being said, if we do eventually suspect Zamazenta-C, please let it be done in the absende of Zygarde and Kyurem-B. Those broken guys need addressing
One strategy I think is actually viable for the first time ever is hail. Actual hail, not aurora veil teams masquerading as hail. The removal of hidden power, wider distribution for weather ball, and addition of dracozolt make the joke of weather teams actually worth using.
The Setters- Set up your weather. Desperately try to squeeze as much utility as possible from these very bad pokemon.
Aurorus @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD or 252SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Modest Nature or Timid
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil/Hail
- Blizzard
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power/Ancient Power/Rock Polish/Hail
This setter has a lot of weaknesses and no priority which makes me like it less than the others. The typing is seriously so bad you feel like you can never bring it in without a teleport or off of a sack. However, it's main advantage is compressing rocks and a hail setter on one team, but I often find it impossible to get up rocks with this thing as most walls even beat you down fairly quickly. Worse, taking damage on a setter weak to rocks with no recovery is suboptimal. It does have rock polish to clean up late in the game but overall I think it is the worst setter.
Vanilluxe @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Autotomize/AuroraVeil/Hail
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Shard/Explosion
The ice cream is the most offensive setter with the strongest freeze dry and blizzard, along with priority in ice shard. Now it has veil as well as explosion to keep it up and get a free switch. Still not my favorite but better than aurorus.
Ninetales-Alola @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Freeze-Dry
- Hypnosis/Hail/Moonblast
- Encore/Hail/Moonblast
Ninetails is a fantastic setter with strong moonblasts, freeze drys, and blizzards, but no priority. That said, utility from veil, hypnosis, and encore can make up for this. Typing with actual resistances means you can actually bring it in on things to get hail up without taking huge damage.
Abomasnow @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpDef
Brave Nature or Adamant
- Ice Shard
- Leech Seed/Earthquake/Blizzard/Icicle Spear
- Giga Drain/Seedbomb/Woodhammer
- Protect/Aurora Veil/Hail/Swords Dance
This is in my opinion the best setter. Leech on the switch gives you some recovery and alongside hail gives nice residual. Powerful ice shards help with a lot of the sweepers running around that are either weak to ice like zygarde, latios, and dragonite, or just plain frail like mosa. The typing, while not great overall still offers some resists that can be used to get up hail. It has veil now which, even though only 5 turns on a hail team is still nice for the setup to abuse.
The Abusers- Sweepers that abuse the hail with weather ball or slush rush.
Arctozolt @ Life Orb
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Icicle Spear
- Bolt Beak
- Substitute/Charge/Low Kick
This guy is the reason you run hail, though it only hits 458 speed with +speed nature which leaves it outsped by fast scarfers like mosa, pult, and kart. These downsides are mitigated by stab bolt+beam and freeze-dry, leaving it walled by only a few pokemon. Bolt beak is ridiculous and ice move + freeze-dry covers all resists or immunities (except magnezone). It needs a life orb however, is weak to rocks, and has to chose between low kick for ferro, sub to ease predictions and prevent fast scarfers (except pult) from revenge killing it, or charge for stronger beaks if you're a man and predict the switch. Often times you can just send this out and hit bolt beak like it delivers a shot of heroin and get a couple of kills.
Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost/Agility/Volt Switch
- Hurricane
- Weather Ball
- Thunderbolt/Volt Switch/Heatwave
Weatherball gives offensive zap powerful ice coverage to go along with it's already strong stabs which shrinks the pools of ground types that can switch in and eat its attacks even smaller.
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Weather Ball
- Focus Blast
- Agility/Nasty Plot
My favorite weather ball abuser. Hits super hard, gives an electric immunity, and after an agility, can sweep most unprepared teams. Nasty plot can be run to wallbreak instead, though I find thundurus is not often lacking for power. I didn't have any success with double dance.
Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility/Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Weather Ball
- Aura Sphere
Usually ends up being a budget thundurus but has a speed advantage and better bulk which can sometimes be nice. Calm mind does give it another tool that thundurus doesn't but it also has aura sphere instead of focus blast which makes its coverage much weaker.
(can be any standard landorus set just slot on weather ball instead of edge)
Gives landorus the ice coverage it sorely misses for grasses like rilla or bulky grounds like landorus or zygarde. Never a sweeper but still appreciates the ice move.
Supporters- These pokemon don't abuse hail but should make the defensive backbone, offer free switches, and or put up hazards to help an otherwise one-dimensional archetype not be a match-up fish. (These guys just run normal sets and are well known in OU so I won't include them)
Everyone knows how good regen+teleport+future sight is and dracozolt, like many other sweepers, appreciates the free switch and the future sight giving kos on would-be walls, mainly buzzwole. The free switch is also nice for your weather setters who all have a hard time coming in while the typing lets slowbro wall many things that would otherwise 6-0 a team of ice types. I really think this is a mandatory pick.
Of course the pink mon is super good on this team because it's good on basically every team. Wish+port is great for both your setters and abusers, while rocks are nice for chip and the typing lets you not lose to urshifu and other strong fighting types.
Like clef, heatran is always good on everything and although hail nulifying the leftovers is really annoying, the synergy between magma storm and hail residual is great. Heatran also offers rocks and a sturdy fire immunity to a team style that wants it bad.
I've played around with this one a bit, but hazard control is a must on a team with at least two ice types, both of which can't afford to run boots. Basically, fill in any defogger.
Dishonorable Mentions- Mons I think suck on hail but people immediately try to abuse
This mon really clashes with arctozolt, which is bad when it can be described as a bad arctozolt. The water type just doesn't work well offensively with ice and makes you super reliant on uninvested freeze-drys to attempt to breakthrough checks. Unfortunately, those freeze-drys don't do much to hurt fini or pex. You can't afford to run both zolt and vish which unfortunately makes this guy a fish out of water (please clap).
The typing looks nice until you realize the defensive synergy between steel and ice is bad, and the offensive synergy is just as bad. With as poor of an attack stat as this guy has it needs some way to beat bulky waters but it often can't, even at +2. This one is admittedly less bad than the fish but still not worth using over arctozolt imo. Maybe someone can make me eat my words.
Any snowcloak/icebody """abuser""" - You might be tempted to run any of these guys because their abilities directly work with hail, but you end up just stacking ice types for either very little payoff or a 25% chance for a nice dodge that might not have even mattered. I don't really like any of these for hail.
My Team Paste
To quote the Flying Press "Get out there!". I'm in the 1700s with this team and it still can get way better so I think hail could really be viable this gen.
https://pokepast.es/4cd5ce51a92eef43
this isn't an rmt but if you have make any modifications that work for this team let me know, or don't idc.
edit: added correct pokepaste
The Setters- Set up your weather. Desperately try to squeeze as much utility as possible from these very bad pokemon.
Aurorus @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD or 252SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Modest Nature or Timid
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil/Hail
- Blizzard
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power/Ancient Power/Rock Polish/Hail
This setter has a lot of weaknesses and no priority which makes me like it less than the others. The typing is seriously so bad you feel like you can never bring it in without a teleport or off of a sack. However, it's main advantage is compressing rocks and a hail setter on one team, but I often find it impossible to get up rocks with this thing as most walls even beat you down fairly quickly. Worse, taking damage on a setter weak to rocks with no recovery is suboptimal. It does have rock polish to clean up late in the game but overall I think it is the worst setter.Vanilluxe @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Autotomize/AuroraVeil/Hail
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Shard/Explosion
The ice cream is the most offensive setter with the strongest freeze dry and blizzard, along with priority in ice shard. Now it has veil as well as explosion to keep it up and get a free switch. Still not my favorite but better than aurorus.Ninetales-Alola @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Freeze-Dry
- Hypnosis/Hail/Moonblast
- Encore/Hail/Moonblast
Ninetails is a fantastic setter with strong moonblasts, freeze drys, and blizzards, but no priority. That said, utility from veil, hypnosis, and encore can make up for this. Typing with actual resistances means you can actually bring it in on things to get hail up without taking huge damage.Abomasnow @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpDef
Brave Nature or Adamant
- Ice Shard
- Leech Seed/Earthquake/Blizzard/Icicle Spear
- Giga Drain/Seedbomb/Woodhammer
- Protect/Aurora Veil/Hail/Swords Dance
This is in my opinion the best setter. Leech on the switch gives you some recovery and alongside hail gives nice residual. Powerful ice shards help with a lot of the sweepers running around that are either weak to ice like zygarde, latios, and dragonite, or just plain frail like mosa. The typing, while not great overall still offers some resists that can be used to get up hail. It has veil now which, even though only 5 turns on a hail team is still nice for the setup to abuse.The Abusers- Sweepers that abuse the hail with weather ball or slush rush.
Arctozolt @ Life Orb
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Icicle Spear
- Bolt Beak
- Substitute/Charge/Low Kick
This guy is the reason you run hail, though it only hits 458 speed with +speed nature which leaves it outsped by fast scarfers like mosa, pult, and kart. These downsides are mitigated by stab bolt+beam and freeze-dry, leaving it walled by only a few pokemon. Bolt beak is ridiculous and ice move + freeze-dry covers all resists or immunities (except magnezone). It needs a life orb however, is weak to rocks, and has to chose between low kick for ferro, sub to ease predictions and prevent fast scarfers (except pult) from revenge killing it, or charge for stronger beaks if you're a man and predict the switch. Often times you can just send this out and hit bolt beak like it delivers a shot of heroin and get a couple of kills.Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost/Agility/Volt Switch
- Hurricane
- Weather Ball
- Thunderbolt/Volt Switch/Heatwave
Weatherball gives offensive zap powerful ice coverage to go along with it's already strong stabs which shrinks the pools of ground types that can switch in and eat its attacks even smaller.Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Weather Ball
- Focus Blast
- Agility/Nasty Plot
My favorite weather ball abuser. Hits super hard, gives an electric immunity, and after an agility, can sweep most unprepared teams. Nasty plot can be run to wallbreak instead, though I find thundurus is not often lacking for power. I didn't have any success with double dance.Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility/Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Weather Ball
- Aura Sphere
Usually ends up being a budget thundurus but has a speed advantage and better bulk which can sometimes be nice. Calm mind does give it another tool that thundurus doesn't but it also has aura sphere instead of focus blast which makes its coverage much weaker.(can be any standard landorus set just slot on weather ball instead of edge)
Gives landorus the ice coverage it sorely misses for grasses like rilla or bulky grounds like landorus or zygarde. Never a sweeper but still appreciates the ice move.Supporters- These pokemon don't abuse hail but should make the defensive backbone, offer free switches, and or put up hazards to help an otherwise one-dimensional archetype not be a match-up fish. (These guys just run normal sets and are well known in OU so I won't include them)
Everyone knows how good regen+teleport+future sight is and dracozolt, like many other sweepers, appreciates the free switch and the future sight giving kos on would-be walls, mainly buzzwole. The free switch is also nice for your weather setters who all have a hard time coming in while the typing lets slowbro wall many things that would otherwise 6-0 a team of ice types. I really think this is a mandatory pick. Of course the pink mon is super good on this team because it's good on basically every team. Wish+port is great for both your setters and abusers, while rocks are nice for chip and the typing lets you not lose to urshifu and other strong fighting types. Like clef, heatran is always good on everything and although hail nulifying the leftovers is really annoying, the synergy between magma storm and hail residual is great. Heatran also offers rocks and a sturdy fire immunity to a team style that wants it bad. I've played around with this one a bit, but hazard control is a must on a team with at least two ice types, both of which can't afford to run boots. Basically, fill in any defogger.Dishonorable Mentions- Mons I think suck on hail but people immediately try to abuse
This mon really clashes with arctozolt, which is bad when it can be described as a bad arctozolt. The water type just doesn't work well offensively with ice and makes you super reliant on uninvested freeze-drys to attempt to breakthrough checks. Unfortunately, those freeze-drys don't do much to hurt fini or pex. You can't afford to run both zolt and vish which unfortunately makes this guy a fish out of water (please clap). The typing looks nice until you realize the defensive synergy between steel and ice is bad, and the offensive synergy is just as bad. With as poor of an attack stat as this guy has it needs some way to beat bulky waters but it often can't, even at +2. This one is admittedly less bad than the fish but still not worth using over arctozolt imo. Maybe someone can make me eat my words.Any snowcloak/icebody """abuser""" - You might be tempted to run any of these guys because their abilities directly work with hail, but you end up just stacking ice types for either very little payoff or a 25% chance for a nice dodge that might not have even mattered. I don't really like any of these for hail.
My Team Paste
To quote the Flying Press "Get out there!". I'm in the 1700s with this team and it still can get way better so I think hail could really be viable this gen.
https://pokepast.es/4cd5ce51a92eef43
this isn't an rmt but if you have make any modifications that work for this team let me know, or don't idc.
edit: added correct pokepaste
What is different about Zamazenta and Silvally being classified separately per item form than Genesect? I feel like a lot of these arguments could equally apply to a Genesect that is forced to run a drive instead of having band/scarf/etc options.