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Anyway, a mon I'd like to share my opinion on from the survey. Zamazenta-C. Here's a sample set for you to consider:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge/Psychic Fangs
- Crunch/Howl/Work Up
- Agility
Normally when we discuss sweepers and breakers, it's defensive counterplay we worry about. And Zamazenta-C does come with defensive counterplay built in. It suffers from 4MSS, has an only "meh" 130 ATK and struggles to fit its signature Behemoth Bash onto a set. It lacks Swords Dance, having only Howl and Work Up. It doesn't even get to abuse Body Press.
But the issue I take with Zamazenta-C is the total lack of offensive counterplay it has. The above set uses 16 Speed EVs to outrun scarfed Tapu Koko, in case that is ever considered as an answer, and makes it faster than anything with 105 base speed and a neutral nature at +0. Anything that isn't +1 Dragapult is going to get outsped by this and have to take a hit from it before they can hit it. And when they do actually hit it....
252+ Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 312-368 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Uh. What.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 238-282 (61.8 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sure I guess...
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 291-343 (75.5 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
No, resists do not touch it ever.
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 356-420 (92.4 - 109%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Good thing 252 HP Final Gambit can kill it from full....
+2 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 306-362 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Emergency sweeper stop.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Psychic Terrain: 229-270 (59.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Specs Lele is setup bait. Setup bait. Specs Lele.
Now put this monstrosity behind Screens and you have a massive, massive issue. It doesn't matter if it only gets Howl when it can take as long as it likes to setup....
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 292-345 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 220-259 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 125-148 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
...This really sums it up doesn't it.
Do. Not. Unban. Quad resists Stealth Rock, stats are way too high across the board with no "wasted" stat like past-gen KB, and Dauntless Shield basically turns it into Blissey for physical attackers. With 130 ATK. And it's Steel type. It's like Melmetal, if Melmetal couldn't hold an item but instead outran half the game and learnt Agility.
Anyway, a mon I'd like to share my opinion on from the survey. Zamazenta-C. Here's a sample set for you to consider:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge/Psychic Fangs
- Crunch/Howl/Work Up
- Agility
Normally when we discuss sweepers and breakers, it's defensive counterplay we worry about. And Zamazenta-C does come with defensive counterplay built in. It suffers from 4MSS, has an only "meh" 130 ATK and struggles to fit its signature Behemoth Bash onto a set. It lacks Swords Dance, having only Howl and Work Up. It doesn't even get to abuse Body Press.
But the issue I take with Zamazenta-C is the total lack of offensive counterplay it has. The above set uses 16 Speed EVs to outrun scarfed Tapu Koko, in case that is ever considered as an answer, and makes it faster than anything with 105 base speed at +0. Anything that isn't +1 Dragapult is going to get outsped by this and have to take a hit from it before they can hit it. And when they do actually hit it....
252+ Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 312-368 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Uh. What.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 238-282 (61.8 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sure I guess...
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 291-343 (75.5 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
No, resists do not touch it ever.
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 356-420 (92.4 - 109%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Good thing 252 HP Final Gambit can kill it from full....
+2 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 306-362 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Emergency sweeper stop.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Psychic Terrain: 229-270 (59.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Specs Lele is setup bait. Setup bait. Specs Lele.
Now put this monstrosity behind Screens and you have a massive, massive issue. It doesn't matter if it only gets Howl when it can take as long as it likes to setup....
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 292-345 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 220-259 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 125-148 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
...This really sums it up doesn't it.
Do. Not. Unban. Quad resists Stealth Rock, stats are way too high across the board with no "wasted" stat like past-gen KB, and Dauntless Shield basically turns it into Blissey for physical attackers. With 130 ATK. And it's Steel type. It's like Melmetal, if Melmetal couldn't hold an item but instead outran half the game and learnt Agility.
The thing is it suffers a lot from 4mss, like lando t checks it without howl or ice fang, bulky volc takes 2 unboosted CCs, moltres checks it without wild charge, victini checks it without crunch, hell also things like blacephalon, aegislash, zapdos, gyara can also sorta check it. What you are dropping? A boosting move or a coverage? Zamazenta Crown maybe be bulky enough to take hits, but his damage output isn't that good.
I'd like to put in my input on Zamazenta-C getting brought down, as I would be absolutely thrilled to try this Pokemon in OU. Instead of arguing why it's bad enough to be brought down to OU, I'd like to take a different approach. I'd like to talk about how it's actually healthy for the OU Metagame.
What some of you are missing about Zamazenta-C is that it's essentially just a bulkier, but weaker Mega-Lucario without all of the setup tools and ability to run mixed sets as M-Lucario could. Fighting / Steel type is actually a great type combination that acts as a sort of anti-meta pick for the tier. Fairies can't safely switch in on it, yet it's one of the few Steel types that doesn't want to take boosted Moonblasts. It has a weird selection of coverage moves that fit OU nicely, while at the same time leaving something to be desired without the power boost of LO, Choice Band, etc. This Pokemon desperately needed Earthquake for Pokemon such as Toxapex, as its only SE coverage moves with relevant power (Wild Charge, Psychic Fangs) lets Zamazenta be worn down incredibly quickly while not even being able to 2HKO Pex.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Pex can just switch out, heal back up and more can come in. I'm not saying it wouldn't be broken (although I strongly feel it would be an A tier Pokemon, not broken), it just suffers from 4MSS, a quirky movepool, and a distinct lack of certain tools that it DESPERATELY needs.
I'd say, bring it down to OU for a suspect test, couldn't hurt to see how it fits in the metagame. If it's too borked, just shoot it back up to Ubers.
The thing is it suffers a lot from 4mss, like lando t checks it without howl or ice fang, bulky volc takes 2 unboosted CCs, moltres checks it without wild charge, victini checks it without crunch, hell also things like blacephalon, aegislash, zapdos, gyara can also sorta check it. What you are dropping? A boosting move or a coverage? Zamazenta Crown maybe be bulky enough to take hits, but his damage output isn't that good.
Anyway, a mon I'd like to share my opinion on from the survey. Zamazenta-C. Here's a sample set for you to consider:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge/Psychic Fangs
- Crunch/Howl/Work Up
- Agility
Normally when we discuss sweepers and breakers, it's defensive counterplay we worry about. And Zamazenta-C does come with defensive counterplay built in. It suffers from 4MSS, has an only "meh" 130 ATK and struggles to fit its signature Behemoth Bash onto a set. It lacks Swords Dance, having only Howl and Work Up. It doesn't even get to abuse Body Press.
But the issue I take with Zamazenta-C is the total lack of offensive counterplay it has. The above set uses 16 Speed EVs to outrun scarfed Tapu Koko, in case that is ever considered as an answer, and makes it faster than anything with 105 base speed and a neutral nature at +0. Anything that isn't +1 Dragapult is going to get outsped by this and have to take a hit from it before they can hit it. And when they do actually hit it....
252+ Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 312-368 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Uh. What.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 238-282 (61.8 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sure I guess...
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 291-343 (75.5 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
No, resists do not touch it ever.
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 356-420 (92.4 - 109%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Good thing 252 HP Final Gambit can kill it from full....
+2 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 306-362 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Emergency sweeper stop.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Psychic Terrain: 229-270 (59.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Specs Lele is setup bait. Setup bait. Specs Lele.
Now put this monstrosity behind Screens and you have a massive, massive issue. It doesn't matter if it only gets Howl when it can take as long as it likes to setup....
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 292-345 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 220-259 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 125-148 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
...This really sums it up doesn't it.
Do. Not. Unban. Quad resists Stealth Rock, stats are way too high across the board with no "wasted" stat like past-gen KB, and Dauntless Shield basically turns it into Blissey for physical attackers. With 130 ATK. And it's Steel type. It's like Melmetal, if Melmetal couldn't hold an item but instead outran half the game and learnt Agility.
While I see your point and I myself mentioned that due to its bulk it may only need Howl or Work Up to be busted, I think there's a few things you are neglecting here.
1. It has no reliable recovery, so even if it takes 1 hit from Attacks that would destroy other mons weak to them, its left with 1 turn, at best, to set up in front of whatever is trying to kill it. This means you have to pick either Agility or boosting Damage to use.
2. Since you made it Adamant, and for good reason, this means its Speed tier would be far lower, meaning common offensive mons would have the chance to smack it even before the boost.
3. This mon already suffers from 4mss. You're already forgoing one of its best moves in Behemoth Blade (meaning you can't touch Clef ever and probably couldn't even kill Lele after a boost), and possibly 2 if you run Work Up, limiting this mon to 2 moves. It would be basically useless against anything other than very Offensive builds at that point, or it would be just a clean-up mon, and we already have a few of those around in the tier.
4. Its 4x resistant to rocks, sure. But Spikes hurts it just as well as anybody and HDB allows any mon that wants to not worry about Hazard damage to avoid the chip already. This is pretty comparable to this case, since Zamazenta is already forced to run a Broken Shield, and thus has the same opportunity cost other mons would pay to use HDB, but worse becasue Zamazenta actually gets hit by Spikes and still takes a minimal chip on Rocks.
So while you are correct that it can set up on basically anything, I'm not sure it can really make use of that setup appropiately. Furthermore, it can't recover at all and the cost it pays to run setup or Rest in the first place is frankly gigantic and would likely not work very well in a lot of situations. Not saying whether it won't be busted or that it will, but I'm saying that it frankly merits a look in practice.
Might as well talk about my response to the player survey, most of it looks to be similar to what's already been said but here I go anyway. I put down 7 for both metagame questions as even though there are problems within this tier, for the most part everything seems to fit nicely really well. Its much more better than the dlc 1 meta as we have new offensive and defensive mons to use.
- these 2 are the mons i would most definitely quickban. Zygarde I'm not going to go too much in depth because we've already had like 4 pages talking about how busted it is. Just read any of those and you'll understand the stupidity known as zygarde. Kyurem-black has also definitely overstayed its welcome. It can easily getup 2-3 Dragon dance's and sweep the entire meta, mandating something like melmetal for every team. Furthermore, its last slot is super customizable. It can run earth power for melmetal, substitute for more set up opportunities, roost for longevity, dual wingbeat for buzzwole, iron head if you REALLY hate clefable. All in all, both of these mons have a vast variety of tools to bypass their checks and i hope that these 2 get quick banned so we can have a much healthier environment in the tier.
- while I do think this will likely go in the long term, it is not a clear cut case as the other 2. It suffers from sever 4MSS and shitty bulk, but its super fast and still has a wide array of coverage to hit lots of mons. Honestly, the fact it can just u-turn out of the mons it doesn't have coverage for is really nutty. Still, we have mons like clefable, fini, moltres, and zapdos who deal with it for the most part. It also has a surprisingly meh damage output. For now we should keep it but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the first suspect done for the DLC 2 metagame.
- I feel these 2 mons should warrant more attention. Mage is as versatile as ever and a fantastic wincon. She doesn't seem so bad because of shit like zygarde running around, and we have PLENTY more checks to her than last time. Still, we should continue to monitor this mon as the meta develops, because I do think it still has a chance to be broken. Spectier I feel is really being undersold though. While it does lack coverage, if you don't have a ghost resist it can clean through your team. While some say the some case is with regieleki, it cant do anything to the grounds that deal with it while spectier has ways to bypass the ghost and dark resists (there are also a plentiful amount of grounds in OU versus the amount of ghost resists). First, blissey loses if its a substitute +NP +SBall+ DPulse set as blissey cant status it and is forced out. TTar and urshifu can take a hit, but both absolutely despise a burn. Lastly, mandibuzz is the best check we have to this thing, but even so a pokemon can have a check and still be problematic. I don't think spectrier is broken either but it is something we should absolutely pay attention to in the coming months.
- none of these mons are broken nor they look to be. Pex was at its peak during OLT but the meta has adapted to it and it is nowhere near banworthy anymore. Blaziken is super frail and has severe 4MSS. Moreover, it gets worn down super easily between flare blitz and life orb. Torn-t has kinda been underwhelming ngl, its surprisingly frail and I haven't struggled to deal with it at all. Cinderace and melmetal both hate the new rocky helmet users like moltres, garchomp, and zapdos as they can get worn down. Shout out to moltres and zapdos especially for being such fantastic defensive mons in the metagame. But yeah I don't think any of these are anywhere near broken, they are all still very good though.
- First of all, regularly zamazenta is fucking broken. It takes all the parts that make zamazenta-c worth a test in OU, and just gets rid of them, The ability to hold a choice band and those 8 extra points of speed are enough for me to believe that reg zamazenta should not be tested. However, zamazenta-c is a different story. We all know that zamazenta-c falls flat against balance teams, it has 4MSS, no good boosting moves, and can't even break through things like moltres, zapdos, hippo, pex, and tangrowth. While it has the potential to go ham on offense, I still think that we should at least TEST it. If it turns out to be broken, we just send it back to ubers but if not, yay another mon to use
That's all my main thoughts on the metagame as a whole. We only really have 2 urgent things to get rid of while the rest kinda balance each other out and we should give them more tome. Hope that zygarde and kyurem-black go while we do get the chance to test zamaenta-c soon, maybe after a suspect test of phermosoa should it become banworthy? its whatever, catch y'all soon, and please take all the broken shit away from UU.
But in all seriousness, this thing looks pretty mediocre, though I think that actually using it would probably change opinions. As it stands, it is a bulky pivot without a Pivot Move and its best set up move is...Howl. You basically are forced either into running a very mediocre set up set of Howl and Dual Stab with either Ice Fang or Psychic Fangs, or an all out attacker set. It hits reasonably hard for something that is kneecapped without an Item (I will post some calcs later) and is very bulky, but as it stands, this thing just does not look that good. I have seen some people complain about the offensive counterplay to Crowned, but the offensive counterplay is repeated pressure. While Zamezenta can take some big hits, it can't keep tanking them. Unlike other better offensive or defensive pokemon, it is not powerful enough or has enough status or utility to capitalize as hard. The worst case scenario when a Zamazenta comes in is that it launches off a CC or Beheamoth Bash and is forced to pivot out when its coverage move fails to 2hko after. Fully support a suspect test in the future.
Being able to hold a Choice Band, or well, any item, completely changes the dynamic of this thing. Banded CC is very spammable, especially given its speed. It's mediocre movepool is just enough to make a pretty good band set of CC/Crunch/Iron Head/Psychic Fangs or Ice Fang. But...I am honestly not sure it would be as amazing as everyone else thinks, given that Urshifu and Pheromosa offer strong competition and it still is pretty one dimensional. The fact that you lack a strong secondary stab means you are basically forced into CC spam except for hard reads. Unlike say, Urshifu or Pheromosa, you do not have that safe alternative stab. To put in work, you have to have CC ready. Despite all that, it is still rather bulky and relatively strong. I would lean broken without trying it out, but I would say testing it might worth it in the long run...after Crowned though.
The only pokemon I think that should be quickbanned 100%. This thing is completely toxic to play against. The lack of HP Ice was such a buff to Zygarde. The loss of Z Moves was more of a mixed bag. While there are no more times you can bully a check with either Dragonium or Steelium Z, you also are less likely to get chunked by a Z Move. This adds up to what I think is the main issue with Zygarde: It is so bulky that it always cripples something. Sub Coil is the best set imo, as Glare and Toxic both are super degenerate in this meta. Even if Zygarde does not outright sweep, something always is crippled and chunked. It is so easy to fit on teams too, which in my opinion is also a problem. It basically can bypass its checks in the long run and always put in work. Sub DD and Band also are solid sets, but Coil is what pushed it over the edge. Ban it please.
This thing is dumb, but I do not know if it is as quickban worthy as Zygarde. I guess my main issues with the Kyube is that it honestly is super bad defensively. Yes those stats are not bad, but you need to run boots or you are getting gimped right away in terms of that bulk. DD is a super good wallbreaker because Spear and Fusion Bolt help it basically break through everything that isn't Melmetal and Buzzwole, who it can beat with coverae moves. To me though, the thing that makes Kyube not as frustrating to handle right now is that it is rather easy to pressure defensively. The other sets, namely Band, Scarf, and LO Mixed, are all meh compared to how consistent DD is. That being said, it is one of the best wallbreakers/sweepers in the tier, and likely is broken. Either Quickban this thing alongside Ziggy, or test him.
I feel like I am in the minority here, but Pheromosa honestly is not that scary compared to what everyone else is saying. Maybe it is just me, but Phero honestly is even after the Genesect nerf a very one dimensional pokemon. It is either running Band or All Out Attacker, and since it has to run Boots in this meta (LO Phero is bad), you can tell rather quickly. Band is prediction reliant but basically just spams U Turn for 90% of the time since if you predict wrong you don't have a Pheromosa. All Out Attacker however has some of the worst 4MSS of any mon. You need CC and U Turn. So, do you run Ice Beam/Triple Axel, Poison Jab, Rapid Spin, or Drill Run? The main probematic aspect of Pheromosa in my opinion is it can live forever by just repeatedly U Turning, potentially outlasting its checks. But this is in itself a double edged sword. You basically can never switch Phero in to take advantage of momentum or a resisted hit due to how frail it is, meaning that it either comes in on a hard double, a slow pivot, or a dead pokemon. I personally think it is fine in this meta, but if it was suspected down the line I would understand. I guess I just think it is not as problematic as everyone else.
This thing is the most annoying new drop, and one I think might become an issue in the future. While it has a garbage movepool and pitiful bulk, it still hits hard and Ghost STAB is just so spammable. Specs, Scarf, Sub NP, Sub Disable, and NP Hex are all super strong. I think this thing is not that broken, but it is kind of dumb how far spamming Specs Shadow Ball gets you when you in the long run. I do not think it is worth a QB or a test mainly due to how its best partner, at least in my opinion, is Zygarde. Sub Zygarde can Glare or Toxic all of its counters, letting Hex Spam run wild. Without Zygarde, getting that support is a lot less free.
This is my favorite new drop to play around with. CB is my personal favorite set to use, but Acid Armor Body Press and AV are also pretty solid. Right now though I think it is hard to judge how much it could end up troubling bulky teams due to the above two dragons. It could very much end up being the dumbest wallbreaker in the tier, but right now it is completely fine imo. Wait a test or two, and see where things land.
I hate this thing a lot but right now, it is fine. Shift Gear is really annoying to deal with, but this is far from the biggest issue in the meta. I think that once the meta settles down, Mag could be a lot more dangerous. Right now though, it is very easy to pressure Mag over the course of the game. SG has an awkward time setting up, while the slower sets tend to just get taken advantage of if the Mag user clicks the wrong button. I think part of the issue though is how good Zygarde is in this meta and how this meta honestly has warped around Zygarde. Keep an eye on it, we will see.
This is probably the most underrated of the new drops in the meta, but it still is really good. I think what has made Ace wayyy healthier than in IoA is that the new pokemon brought in force Ace into a harder spot. Garchomp, Lando T, and the soon to be banned Zygarde all are very strong checks. But even beyond those three (soon to be two), it just feels easier to check Cinderace beyond hoping it was not Zen Headbutt and using Pex. It has a lot harder of a time pivoting in, the speed cap is higher so its speed tier is not as oppressive, it just feels weaker. Totally fine in this meta, it honestly feels healthy tbh.
Man, remember when everyone was worried about Blaziken? This might just be a mediocre heuristic example, but I was only swept by this thing once in the entire CT metagame. The 4MSS is so real right now. You need dual stab. But SD, Protect, and Coverage all make this thing very difficult to use either as a wallbreaker or a sweeper. Combine that with little defensive utility and you have one of the easiest mons in the crown tundra metagame to handle. I doubt this thing will get suspect tested with how middling it is.
I hate this thing but I do not think it is broken. It is just the best hazard removal in the game. Regenerator and Defog just make this thing super annoying. I would like it banned personally, but I know it is not broken at all.
Ok this is the most difficult mon to judge because it is not some offensive behemoth. I personally think it was broken in IoA, but in CT it is nowhere near as strong because there are so many more pokemon that pressure Toxapex compared to IoA. But man, I really hate the effect this has on games and teambuilding. We all know how frustrating Pex is as a status machine, throwing out T Spikes, Scald Burns, and Knock offs. My greater issue with Pex is that it honestly is a very overcentralizing mon. It is such a good glue that you can make most non HO teams better by just running a Pex. I personally think that this level of a glue mon is kind of unhealthy potentially. I would not suspect Pex right now, but I would keep an eye on it.
This was not in the forum but Urshifu S is still really good. I doubt it will be as good as it was in IoA, but it could still end up being problematic again. It is completely fine right now, but keep an eye on him.
If I was to say my suggested order of things, it would be Quickban Zygarde, Either Qucikban Kyurem B or Suspect it, and then see what happens. I personally think that while there are some annoying pokemon like Pheromosa and Spectrier, we should wait until the meta settles after those two go. As for Zamazenta C and H, test C once we get the super broken stuff out of the tier, and maybe test Hero after.
Do NOT unban. Too fast and strong (while being bulky) for the OU environment. The possibility to hold an item makes it even more unhealthy.
Do not unban. Although it can't hold an item and has a limited movepool, it is insanely bulky and, even with the lack of set-up moves and the item, it has Rest to act as a bulky stallbreaker that stops pokemons unable to 2HKO it in their tracks.
Ban. It is the strongest revenge killer ever seen in OU due to its focused offensive stats. It doesn't have to OHKO threats from full, but it has to pressure them with U-turn until they are weak enough to be killed. Sure, it does have 4MSS, but you don't know if it has the move that is able to pick the kill....until it is too late with that Spe stat. Also, Pheromosa outspeeds base 84 Spe Scarfers (if 252+ Spe) thus hindering the variety of the OU metagame in a wrong way.
What is really scary is that Pheromosa isn't even that frail with 71/37/37 "bulk"; look at this calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa in Grassy Terrain: 255-300 (90.1 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 171-202 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice BandHuge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 255-301 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 252-299 (89 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 163-193 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (keep in mind that Aegoslash was nerfed this generation)
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 244-288 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (nobody runs Aegi with a Band, but it shows the "bulk" o Pheromosa towards priorities)
252 Atk Choice Band Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 193-228 (68.1 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 183-216 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 282-332 (99.6 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 250-294 (88.3 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 287-338 (101.4 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ok just snipping half of this stuff because the analysis is really really bad, but the Phero and Zamezenta stuff in particular is super bad.
First off, your examples of Phero's "bulk" basically assume that it is at perfect HP and has not taken any damage from hazards. Second of all, you are clearly missing the forest for the trees here. Phero can not take more than one hit or all these priority forms are lethal to it. The only way this is happening is if the only time Phero ever comes in is when it can certainly get an OHKO or can just pivot out, where it has not done as much work. You also do not factor in how a defensive pokemon could chip Phero if it ever stays in. Since apparently listing calcs is enough evidence, lets go with some from common OU defensive checks to Mosa.
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 159-187 (56.1 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pheromosa: 111-132 (39.2 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Pheromosa: 124-147 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (run boots)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Pheromosa: 468-552 (165.3 - 195%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 285-336 (100.7 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Pheromosa: 361-426 (127.5 - 150.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Im not even gonna post a Moltres calc.
While Mosa could in theory handle all of these with the right coverage, the point still stands that basically any hit, even a weak Lando T earthquake or a Pex scald, puts Mosa in critical condition. Just because not every priority move in the tier OHKOs Mosa does not mean that it is broken. A wrong prediction could easily cripple Mosa for the rest of the game.
The Zamezenta stuff is painful to read, most teams outside of hard stall can take advantage of a sleeping Zamezenta, while even Stall has Quagsire to handle it.
Anyway, a mon I'd like to share my opinion on from the survey. Zamazenta-C. Here's a sample set for you to consider:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge/Psychic Fangs
- Crunch/Howl/Work Up
- Agility
Normally when we discuss sweepers and breakers, it's defensive counterplay we worry about. And Zamazenta-C does come with defensive counterplay built in. It suffers from 4MSS, has an only "meh" 130 ATK and struggles to fit its signature Behemoth Bash onto a set. It lacks Swords Dance, having only Howl and Work Up. It doesn't even get to abuse Body Press.
But the issue I take with Zamazenta-C is the total lack of offensive counterplay it has. The above set uses 16 Speed EVs to outrun scarfed Tapu Koko, in case that is ever considered as an answer, and makes it faster than anything with 105 base speed and a neutral nature at +0. Anything that isn't +1 Dragapult is going to get outsped by this and have to take a hit from it before they can hit it. And when they do actually hit it....
252+ Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 312-368 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Uh. What.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 238-282 (61.8 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sure I guess...
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 291-343 (75.5 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
No, resists do not touch it ever.
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 356-420 (92.4 - 109%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Good thing 252 HP Final Gambit can kill it from full....
+2 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 306-362 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Emergency sweeper stop.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Psychic Terrain: 229-270 (59.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Specs Lele is setup bait. Setup bait. Specs Lele.
Now put this monstrosity behind Screens and you have a massive, massive issue. It doesn't matter if it only gets Howl when it can take as long as it likes to setup....
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 292-345 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 220-259 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 125-148 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
...This really sums it up doesn't it.
Do. Not. Unban. Quad resists Stealth Rock, stats are way too high across the board with no "wasted" stat like past-gen KB, and Dauntless Shield basically turns it into Blissey for physical attackers. With 130 ATK. And it's Steel type. It's like Melmetal, if Melmetal couldn't hold an item but instead outran half the game and learnt Agility.
The offensive counterplay is that you pressure it. If Zamazenta C is somehow setting up a dual dance in your face under screens and you lose to it, you likely would have lost to...any good set up sweeper under screens that wouldnt take 2-3 turns to be actually scary. But more than that, you just show that your "set up bait" stops you from basically ever setting up the double dance. Most offensive pokemon threaten this very bulky Zamezenta set as seen by your calcs. Unless you are in the a perfect world where you have screens up, your opponent plays like trash, and you get to double dance up, this thing is lucky to only get a single agility up.
So after the Smogtour that I just participated in (a custom OU tour where Zamazenta-C was unbanned), I can say from my own match and the matches that I've seen that it is extremely underwhelming.
I watched so many things like Magearna, Volcarona, Screens Rillaboom, Aegislash, Toxapex, and a wide variety of other Pokemon just absolutely dunk on it. 130 Attack without the ability to use an item made it surprisingly passive against anything that resisted its STABs, and the people who tried to use Howl were worn down way too quickly. I can confidently say from that tournament that it deserves at the very least a suspect test in OU.
Do NOT test regular Zamazenta. Many have already said the fact it can hold an item makes this Pokemon way too much, but it's true. For reference, Choice Scarf sets outrun Sand Rush Excadrill, and Choice Band sets will be extremely hard to come in on while still being lightning fast, and +1 Defense on switchin makes revenge killing this Pokemon with priority mighty difficult. I can even see Howl + Lum Berry sets being utilized as a way to bypass the common Static/Flame Body strats being used to check OU's physical mons right now . It's too much, in my opinion.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing this Pokemon suspected. The lack of an item + the lowered Speed tier would most likely make Zamazenta-C much more manageable. While Zamazenta in general has issues with 4MSS, it's more noticeable on this variant due to being unable to run a boosting item like Band, LO, etc. On the contrary, I think having a Pokemon like Zamazenta-C could be very good for the tier because it would finally give OU something that it has been lacking all generation: an actual Knock Off absorber. The only non-Uber ones that existed prior were the Silvally forms, but they're not OU-viable Pokemon. I want to see Zamazenta-C suspected.
I'd like to put in my input on Zamazenta-C getting brought down, as I would be absolutely thrilled to try this Pokemon in OU. Instead of arguing why it's bad enough to be brought down to OU, I'd like to take a different approach. I'd like to talk about how it's actually healthy for the OU Metagame.
What some of you are missing about Zamazenta-C is that it's essentially just a bulkier, but weaker Mega-Lucario without all of the setup tools and ability to run mixed sets as M-Lucario could. Fighting / Steel type is actually a great type combination that acts as a sort of anti-meta pick for the tier. Fairies can't safely switch in on it, yet it's one of the few Steel types that doesn't want to take boosted Moonblasts. It has a weird selection of coverage moves that fit OU nicely, while at the same time leaving something to be desired without the power boost of LO, Choice Band, etc. This Pokemon desperately needed Earthquake for Pokemon such as Toxapex, as its only SE coverage moves with relevant power (Wild Charge, Psychic Fangs) lets Zamazenta be worn down incredibly quickly while not even being able to 2HKO Pex.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Pex can just switch out, heal back up and more can come in. I'm not saying it wouldn't be broken (although I strongly feel it would be an A tier Pokemon, not broken), it just suffers from 4MSS, a quirky movepool, and a distinct lack of certain tools that it DESPERATELY needs.
I'd say, bring it down to OU for a suspect test, couldn't hurt to see how it fits in the metagame. If it's too borked, just shoot it back up to Ubers.
I just wanna say I agree, and that toxapex isn't the only common phys def wall that stops Zenta-C in its tracks. What I'm getting at here is that there are enough pokemon that counter Zenta-C that are also just good pokemon in the metagame, meaning Zenta-C wouldn't restrict teambuilding that much:
Buzzwole takes decent chip, but still counters Zenta-C with ease
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 156+ Def Buzzwole: 124-148 (29.7 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
The two OU legendary bird trio mons also check it nicely, Zenta-C never 2HKO's Zapdos, and while it has a slim 10.9% chance to 2HKO Moltres, it is far more likely that it'll be burnt with flame body.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 124-148 (32.2 - 38.5%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 168-198 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
Slowbro eats with ease as well
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Swampert takes a lot, but still isn't 2HKO'd, and can flip turn out into something that can threaten Zenta-C out.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
The list goes on, because frankly, base 130 atk isn't enough to punch holes in this current metagame with mediocre coverage and no boosting item. The fact that so many common metagame pieces check it naturally is a testament to that fact. I don't think Zenta-C would be a problem at all in OU.
The offensive counterplay is that you pressure it. If Zamazenta C is somehow setting up a dual dance in your face under screens and you lose to it, you likely would have lost to...any good set up sweeper under screens that wouldnt take 2-3 turns to be actually scary. But more than that, you just show that your "set up bait" stops you from basically ever setting up the double dance. Most offensive pokemon threaten this very bulky Zamezenta set as seen by your calcs. Unless you are in the a perfect world where you have screens up, your opponent plays like trash, and you get to double dance up, this thing is lucky to only get a single agility up.
Uhh. "Most offensive Pokemon". Like KB after 2 Dragon Dances giving it two turns of setup behind screens. That's not "Most offensive Pokemon", that's this thing just setting up on literally anything in the game short of Super Effective Banded V-create in Sun. Those calcs are the best-case scenario for the opponent assuming they get in a top-end glass cannon wallbreaker to try and stop it. Here's what's more likely to happen to it in practice:
148+ Def Kommo-o Body Press vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 94-112 (24.4 - 29%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock (Super Effective? Never mind.)
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 84-100 (21.8 - 25.9%) -- 30.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock (Again, just because you're using a 100 BP Super Effective move doesn't mean it won't get to +2/+2.)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned through Light Screen: 36-42 (9.3 - 10.9%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock
(And this is what happens if you don't have a Super Effective move handy....)
I appreciate the fact it has defensive counterplay, but my biggest concern with this mon is it just straight-up invalidates offense as a playstyle. It struggles with dedicated walls but if you are relying on offensive pressure to keep it from setting up, lol good luck. You just have to accept it will set up every game, and have walls that can handle it after it does. If you can't, well that's that.
The difference between Zamazenta-C and "any other sweeper" is most sweepers don't require you to get in a wallbreaker to stop them getting a Double Dance off.
I think that it does not make sense to test Zamazenta-C but not test regular Zamazenta. This is effectively a complex ban: "Zamazenta is banned except if it holds Rusted Shield." There are a lot of reasons to prefer full-Pokémon bans to complex bans, but in this case there are two main ones I see. (Obviously complex bans are necessary in some scenarios, but this is not one of them).
The first: why not unban Black Sludge Kyogre? If Kyogre can only hold Black Sludge, it probably won't be broken in OU. This sounds like a slippery slope fallacy, but from a tiering perspective, it's not, because tiering decisions establish precedent. If the precedent is set that we can relatively arbitrarily nerf or buff mons to make them balanced in the tier, there is legitimately no reason not to have the smallest OU banlist possible because nerfed Ubers (can only hold Black Sludge or Macho Brace or something) will add something to the tier. At this point, this is the domain of a Pet Mod.
The second is that tiering ought to be easily comprehensible. It is not intuitive or easily comprehensible to an outsider why Zamazenta holding one item is legal, but holding any other item is not.
I think that there should be one suspect test for both Zamazenta-C and regular Zamazenta, and that in order to unban either, both must be unbanned.
I think that it does not make sense to test Zamazenta-C but not test regular Zamazenta. This is effectively a complex ban: "Zamazenta is banned except if it holds Rusted Shield." There are a lot of reasons to prefer full-Pokémon bans to complex bans, but in this case there are two main ones I see. (Obviously complex bans are necessary in some scenarios, but this is not one of them).
The first: why not unban Black Sludge Kyogre? If Kyogre can only hold Black Sludge, it probably won't be broken in OU. This sounds like a slippery slope fallacy, but from a tiering perspective, it's not, because tiering decisions establish precedent. If the precedent is set that we can relatively arbitrarily nerf or buff mons to make them balanced in the tier, there is legitimately no reason not to have the smallest OU banlist possible because nerfed Ubers (can only hold Black Sludge or Macho Brace or something) will add something to the tier. At this point, this is the domain of a Pet Mod.
The second is that tiering ought to be easily comprehensible. It is not intuitive or easily comprehensible to an outsider why Zamazenta holding one item is legal, but holding any other item is not.
I think that there should be one suspect test for both Zamazenta-C and regular Zamazenta, and that in order to unban either, both must be unbanned.
The precedent already exists via Silvally. Different item-holding Silvallys are in different tiers because of a changed form. It's not a complex ban, it already exists, thus we can have Zama-C tested in OU but not the borked Zama-Regular
I think that it does not make sense to test Zamazenta-C but not test regular Zamazenta. This is effectively a complex ban: "Zamazenta is banned except if it holds Rusted Shield." There are a lot of reasons to prefer full-Pokémon bans to complex bans, but in this case there are two main ones I see. (Obviously complex bans are necessary in some scenarios, but this is not one of them).
The first: why not unban Black Sludge Kyogre? If Kyogre can only hold Black Sludge, it probably won't be broken in OU. This sounds like a slippery slope fallacy, but from a tiering perspective, it's not, because tiering decisions establish precedent. If the precedent is set that we can relatively arbitrarily nerf or buff mons to make them balanced in the tier, there is legitimately no reason not to have the smallest OU banlist possible because nerfed Ubers (can only hold Black Sludge or Macho Brace or something) will add something to the tier. At this point, this is the domain of a Pet Mod.
The second is that tiering ought to be easily comprehensible. It is not intuitive or easily comprehensible to an outsider why Zamazenta holding one item is legal, but holding any other item is not.
I think that there should be one suspect test for both Zamazenta-C and regular Zamazenta, and that in order to unban either, both must be unbanned.
I understand what you're saying, but the difference between Rusted Shield Zamazenta and Black Sludge Kyogre is that RS Zenta is almost a different Pokemon from regular Zamazenta, with different stats and a slight movepool difference (+ Behemoth Bash), while BS Kyogre is still regular Kyogre.
Edit: Plus, what's stopping Kyogre from getting its BS Knocked Off, then using a set like RestTalk or having a wishpasser heal it back to full?
Uhh. "Most offensive Pokemon". Like KB after 2 Dragon Dances giving it two turns of setup behind screens. That's not "Most offensive Pokemon", that's this thing just setting up on literally anything in the game short of Super Effective Banded V-create in Sun. Those calcs are the best-case scenario for the opponent assuming they get in a top-end glass cannon wallbreaker to try and stop it. Here's what's more likely to happen to it in practice:
148+ Def Kommo-o Body Press vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 94-112 (24.4 - 29%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock (Super Effective? Never mind.)
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned through Reflect: 84-100 (21.8 - 25.9%) -- 30.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock (Again, just because you're using a 100 BP Super Effective move doesn't mean it won't get to +2/+2.)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned through Light Screen: 36-42 (9.3 - 10.9%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock
(And this is what happens if you don't have a Super Effective move handy....)
I appreciate the fact it has defensive counterplay, but my biggest concern with this mon is it just straight-up invalidates offense as a playstyle. It struggles with dedicated walls but if you are relying on offensive pressure to keep it from setting up, lol good luck. You just have to accept it will set up every game, and have walls that can handle it after it does. If you can't, well that's that.
The difference between Zamazenta-C and "any other sweeper" is most sweepers don't require you to get in a wallbreaker to stop them getting a Double Dance off.
>Invalidates offense as a playstyle
>needs to set up behind screens to actually work
Choose one.
It is highly doubtful that this thing will be in this perfect dream scenario which you have in which it somehow comes in with screens and gets to set up perfectly. First off, Howl is painfully slow to set up in terms of attack raises, meaning that this so called offense killer is not going to kill offense. Let me give you the genuine benefit of the doubt and say that this thing somehow gets its double dance up. Even if you switched out, Zamazenta needs to take...3 turns at a bare minimum to get its double dance off. Three turns. In that timeframe, you could easily be taken out, statused, or crippled in some way, shape, or form.
So, you have a pokemon that needs to come in safely, and takes 4 turns to set up in order to be threatening, because lets be honest, with the horrible 4MSS you get when you have to run only two attacking moves with your bad set, you will get walled quite easily and need the boosts.
You do not need to have some wallbreaker to bust Zamazenta C open with your bad set, you just have to not be bad. If you let Zamazenta C get a double dance up, which takes 4 turns of it switching in, agility, and a double howl, you deserve to lose.
Lets delve into that 4MSS further. You have Agility and CC, but you already reserved a spot for an answer to Pex. I hope you like getting walled by Lando T unless you drop Howl. The fact of the matter is this thing is weak without a boosting move, and with one you lose out on precious coverage, which for a sweeper to "invalidate offense" you kind of need. You will not get that far against offense without the miracle scenario of this thing is behind screens and nothing on the opponents team can handle it.
Your set is bad anyway, this thing would not be broken as a sweeper in some sort of miracle scenario. The reason this thing is good against offense is that with a decent defensive typing it is a good pivot that can come in and fire off a decent hit. You lose that going for a bad Double Dance set.
I think that it does not make sense to test Zamazenta-C but not test regular Zamazenta. This is effectively a complex ban: "Zamazenta is banned except if it holds Rusted Shield." There are a lot of reasons to prefer full-Pokémon bans to complex bans, but in this case there are two main ones I see. (Obviously complex bans are necessary in some scenarios, but this is not one of them).
The first: why not unban Black Sludge Kyogre? If Kyogre can only hold Black Sludge, it probably won't be broken in OU. This sounds like a slippery slope fallacy, but from a tiering perspective, it's not, because tiering decisions establish precedent. If the precedent is set that we can relatively arbitrarily nerf or buff mons to make them balanced in the tier, there is legitimately no reason not to have the smallest OU banlist possible because nerfed Ubers (can only hold Black Sludge or Macho Brace or something) will add something to the tier. At this point, this is the domain of a Pet Mod.
The second is that tiering ought to be easily comprehensible. It is not intuitive or easily comprehensible to an outsider why Zamazenta holding one item is legal, but holding any other item is not.
I think that there should be one suspect test for both Zamazenta-C and regular Zamazenta, and that in order to unban either, both must be unbanned.
The difference is that this is a different form of a pokemon. This is less like banning your Kyogre example and more like saying that we would ban Deoxys Speed instead of Deoxys Defense or Lycanroc Dusk and not Lycanroc Midnight or Dayform. This is perfectly in line with Smogon's p[olicy in terms of alternate forms getting different tiers. Precedent also exists via Silvally forms too.
I also think you are giving the average player too little credit in terms of comprehension. At worst, the most that putting Zamazenta C in would result in a question in SQSA. It honestly makes sense to look at Zamazenta C as a separate form of Zamazenta. They have different stats, different types, and even a different move. One also is forced to hold Dauntless Shield.
It really is not anything like a complex ban. It is basically testing one form of a pokemon, because that is what it is.
I think that it does not make sense to test Zamazenta-C but not test regular Zamazenta. This is effectively a complex ban: "Zamazenta is banned except if it holds Rusted Shield." There are a lot of reasons to prefer full-Pokémon bans to complex bans, but in this case there are two main ones I see. (Obviously complex bans are necessary in some scenarios, but this is not one of them).
The first: why not unban Black Sludge Kyogre? If Kyogre can only hold Black Sludge, it probably won't be broken in OU. This sounds like a slippery slope fallacy, but from a tiering perspective, it's not, because tiering decisions establish precedent. If the precedent is set that we can relatively arbitrarily nerf or buff mons to make them balanced in the tier, there is legitimately no reason not to have the smallest OU banlist possible because nerfed Ubers (can only hold Black Sludge or Macho Brace or something) will add something to the tier. At this point, this is the domain of a Pet Mod.
The second is that tiering ought to be easily comprehensible. It is not intuitive or easily comprehensible to an outsider why Zamazenta holding one item is legal, but holding any other item is not.
I think that there should be one suspect test for both Zamazenta-C and regular Zamazenta, and that in order to unban either, both must be unbanned.
You do realize Zamanzenta and Zamazenta-C are functionally two different mons, right? Different typing, different movepool, different stats. And you can not knock off Rusted Shield from Zamazenta-C. Your analogy was beyond terrible, one of the worst I have seen recently.
I’m a Zama-C truther. I think there’s a very strong inertia with tiering amongst the player base to trying stuff like this, but it’s definitely the most testable uber we’ve had in almost a decade. It doesn’t get an item, it loses key coverage if you add howl, it doesn’t get recovery. Let’s see what happens! I encourage everyone to keep an open mind. I’d rather be switching into ZamaC than numerous things running around in OU right now, so let’s just see where this goes.
I'm all for testing both Zamazentas just for the fun of it but lol I don't think either of them are fair and balanced in OU.
Regular Zama gets an item and has, due to the free def boost, has the equivalent of 736 BST. It also has a good enough movepool to do what it needs to. Close Combat, Iron Head, Wild Charge, Howl / Work Up, Play Rough, Crunch, Ice + Fire Fang, and Psychic Fangs. 130 / 80 / 138 offensive states paired with excellent bulk is ridiculous and would likely be too much for OU.
Crowned trades holding an item for a 50 BST boost, losing a bit of speed for 92 / 226 / 145 base defenses and gaining Behemoth Bash. It might be a bit more balanced as it can't easily abuse its offensive stats without an item but something like Howl + 3 attacks could just fucking sit there in front of everything except STAB EQ to easily net +2 or more. Keep in mind this DOES have 130 base attack and 128 speed with CC + Behemoth Bash so after a few boosts it can just clean up. There's also the odd Rest + Talk defensive set but I doubt that would be especially broken.
So test it but I don't think either form will be fair in OU.
It doesn't need Screens to click Agility once, after which it KOs anything that isn't a wall.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 273-322 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
And if its check isn't directly in front of it the instant it comes in, it gets a Howl off because its check takes 2 turns to kill it and then everything on offense is just dead. The only offensive team that might be able to handle it is... A Zam Screens team. Yep. Whoever gets their screens up wins.
For being so assertive that it is easy to deal with, you are very handwavey when describing how you actually go about doing this. It's immune to poison, a turn spent para'ing it just is mirrored by a second Agility, it can't be Tricked or Knocked off, so the only way of actually crippling it is to burn it. And I'm sure a good player will be so kind as to allow you to do that.
And as for taking it out, if Specs Lele takes two attempts at it and V-create isn't a 100% kill, most mons will struggle much more than that with this. Basically, if it's Super Effective STAB and coming off a reasonable stat, or a neutral Choiced wallbreaker, it kills it in 2. Otherwise it takes 3+ turns to bring it down. Its Speed makes it impossible to revenge kill without taking a hit from it, it eats most priority (Banded Azu Aqua Jet does at most 25%, so does Banded Grassy Glide). And that's where the Screens are especially dumb, since they double the time it takes to bring it down, to the point you are going to have to use Banded Victini to try and stop it setting up, or have an Aegislash or something set up in parallel.
Anyway, I think I've had my say now and I have better things to do than explain that basically a Mega Metagross that trades overwhelming power for absurd physical bulk and more speed in a world without Megas is broken. I think this sums it up:
It might be a bit more balanced as it can't easily abuse its offensive stats without an item but something like Howl + 3 attacks could just fucking sit there in front of everything except STAB EQ to easily net +2 or more. Keep in mind this DOES have 130 base attack and 128 speed with CC + Behemoth Bash so after a few boosts it can just clean up.
Once we've got the real brokens gone then we have another look at this sure. There's no harm in testing, but OU isn't so powercrept that it's ready for a Pokemon with actually beyond legendary BST (not an average mon that looks like a legendary because of an absurd outlier stat it never uses) and no real downside beyond "No item".
I think that it does not make sense to test Zamazenta-C but not test regular Zamazenta. This is effectively a complex ban: "Zamazenta is banned except if it holds Rusted Shield." There are a lot of reasons to prefer full-Pokémon bans to complex bans, but in this case there are two main ones I see. (Obviously complex bans are necessary in some scenarios, but this is not one of them).
The first: why not unban Black Sludge Kyogre? If Kyogre can only hold Black Sludge, it probably won't be broken in OU. This sounds like a slippery slope fallacy, but from a tiering perspective, it's not, because tiering decisions establish precedent. If the precedent is set that we can relatively arbitrarily nerf or buff mons to make them balanced in the tier, there is legitimately no reason not to have the smallest OU banlist possible because nerfed Ubers (can only hold Black Sludge or Macho Brace or something) will add something to the tier. At this point, this is the domain of a Pet Mod.
The second is that tiering ought to be easily comprehensible. It is not intuitive or easily comprehensible to an outsider why Zamazenta holding one item is legal, but holding any other item is not.
I think that there should be one suspect test for both Zamazenta-C and regular Zamazenta, and that in order to unban either, both must be unbanned.
You've gotten a few similar response, but I feel like I should pitch in too.
Yes, Smogon dislikes complex bans and you are right in pointing out how these tend to be exceptions rather than the rule, but there is precedent to them.
The Silvally case mentioned above is a comparable example, as the forms are considered different Pokemon despite being in the same species, and I see no difference in treating Zamazante-S and Zamazenta-H differently.
While at first it may seem the item restriction is arbitrary, it isn't really an item restriction at all, and rather a far more common and less polemic form treatment. This is also illustrated by Silvally, but you can also use Megas for this example. Mega Scizor is a firmly OU by usage Pokemon in gen 7, while Scizor is UU. Bans and unbans between forms and forms that hold an item are also common practice in tiering. For example, Mega Pinsir is UUBL in gen 7, while Pinsir is firmly UU. If what you said applied, then Pinsir itself would be UUBL, which makes absolutely no sense. Fact of the matter is, Zamazenta's forms depending on the presence of Rusted Shield is not an unseen case and is similar to Mega Evolutions or Sylvally, among perhaps other examples. The fact tiering has already been treating these item-dependent forms differently from the Pokemon without the item and thus another form, along with the fact that everybody that has commented on Zamazenta has indeed been treating the case as 2 separate forms unprompted by this discussion, seems to seal the case firmly as to treating Zamazenta's 2 forms as different mons entirely and not some complex item restriction to use.
I should note that while Megas are not a good comparison to make for Zamazenta (Mega Garchomp is OU by technicality) Silvally absolutely is. Its base form is PUBL, while some types like Poison are PU.
I'm all for testing both Zamazentas just for the fun of it but lol I don't think either of them are fair and balanced in OU.
Regular Zama gets an item and has, due to the free def boost, has the equivalent of 736 BST. It also has a good enough movepool to do what it needs to. Close Combat, Iron Head, Wild Charge, Howl / Work Up, Play Rough, Crunch, Ice + Fire Fang, and Psychic Fangs. 130 / 80 / 138 offensive states paired with excellent bulk is ridiculous and would likely be too much for OU.
Crowned trades holding an item for a 50 BST boost, losing a bit of speed for 92 / 226 / 145 base defenses and gaining Behemoth Bash. It might be a bit more balanced as it can't easily abuse its offensive stats without an item but something like Howl + 3 attacks could just fucking sit there in front of everything except STAB EQ to easily net +2 or more. Keep in mind this DOES have 130 base attack and 128 speed with CC + Behemoth Bash so after a few boosts it can just clean up. There's also the odd Rest + Talk defensive set but I doubt that would be especially broken.
So test it but I don't think either form will be fair in OU.
I think you're making an honest mistake in this assesment. Not being aggressive, but rather direct.
Yes, both mons have a huge BST. This is expected and likely part of the reason the were put in Ubers from the start, along with being cover legendaries. That said, its not really the Base stat totals or the ability itself that matters, but rather how effective it makes a mon in performing in battle. Also keeping in mind which format we are discussing.
Facf of the matter is that Zamazenta, despite its stats and ability, shows reasonable signs that it could be allowed to be used in OU or bellow, and should be tested and allowed to be witnessed in action in order to determine if the mon can see use in the tiering system rather than the Uber designation it got from day 1 arbitrarily. Its more how what a mon has interacts with the tier than a simple BST and Ability observancre that really matters in making the metagame a fair and balanced affair.
Do NOT unban. Too fast and strong (while being bulky) for the OU environment. The possibility to hold an item makes it even more unhealthy.
Do not unban. Although it can't hold an item and has a limited movepool, it is insanely bulky and, even with the lack of set-up moves and the item, it has Rest to act as a bulky stallbreaker that stops pokemons unable to 2HKO it in their tracks.
Ban. It is the strongest revenge killer ever seen in OU due to its focused offensive stats. It doesn't have to OHKO threats from full, but it has to pressure them with U-turn until they are weak enough to be killed. Sure, it does have 4MSS, but you don't know if it has the move that is able to pick the kill....until it is too late with that Spe stat. Also, Pheromosa outspeeds base 84 Spe Scarfers (if 252+ Spe) thus hindering the variety of the OU metagame in a wrong way.
