Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

ausma

token smogon furry
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Top Artistis a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
OU Forum Leader
It baffles me to see how Pheromosa still hasn't gotten the axe. I fail to understand how a Pokemon that outspeeds and destroys the entire tier outside Clefable, Toxapex, Tapu Fini and Moltres can be considered balanced. Not to mention CB sets can run through Clef and Fini without much problems. It resists Grassy Glide and Sucker Punch meaning even strong priorities cannot take it out. And revenge killing is out the window since if you sac something to it, it gets a +1 speed due to Beast Boost and impossible to outspeed.

I had inquired to the council about it earlier and they seem to believe it isn't a problem despite it being glaringly obvious the mon forces fat fairies/pex/moltres on every single team just to prevent being steamrolled. Is that what the council considers a healthy metagame? Where every team is forced to run a fat core and offense is virtually unviable?
You've been making a lot of posts criticizing the OU council that fail to necessarily consider their angles and situation, to a degree where you come off in a very uninformed, narrow-minded manner. Let me put this into perspective: there have been three major, unprecedented metagame shifts, where we have been forced to acclimate to many new additions to the metagame that essentially force the tier's progress asunder. Despite the progress we make, all of it is mitigated, and the councils are forced to treat these metagames as if they are completely new, because if they are. If they don't and act rashly just because we have components that have been considered broken in the past, we have an even more chaotic, skewed metagame that does not accurately reflect its components.

Even if their decisions do not make sense to you, at the very least, it is imperative to understand that patience is absolutely pivotal when it comes to metagame development. I know how hard the OU council is working to make this metagame as controlled and transparent as possible, and they manage to do so by biding their time and communicating. It has worked before, and it is working now. It is one thing to criticize what they are doing, and having suggestions for them to improve their approach; I highly encourage that. However, from your post history and what I've seen, you have posted nothing but scorn toward the council, and have even twisted Finchinator's words on several instances to try and warp the council and make them seem incompetent. I find that really gross and unproductive. If you have a criticism, tell them what your criticism is personally, instead of blasting them publicly and making them appear apathetic and dismissive. They are being patient, and you need to be too.

Another thing: your criticism in of itself doesn't even really hold much ground. In no realm is offense "unviable" right now; that is blatant absurdity.

Although I agree Pheromosa may need to be looked at in the future, it is by no means a cut and dry quickban candidate. There are many natural checks to Pheromosa that are oftentimes run anyway, such as Tapu Fini and Clefable that are very splashable and are run not just for Pheromosa, but other threats such as Garchomp, Urshifu-SS, and Zygarde; other Pokemon such as Toxapex, Zapdos, Mandibuzz, Buzzwole, and Moltres are all checks to U-turn and CC spam as well, and the former is generally very reliable as a Pheromosa check and is immensely splashable. As salt to the wound, it struggles finding safe switch-in opportunities outside of other pivots due to its abysmal bulk and proneness to widespread priority use and Choice Scarf users. Now, that's not to say Pheromosa isn't a top offensive threat, but it has reliable, flexible answers that blanket check other common threats in the metagame. There is good reason for the council to hold off on it, especially since it is not a top suspect with Zygarde-50% being, bar none, the best, most polarizing Pokemon in the tier.

As a parting note for everyone that is unhappy with the state of the tier: please, have patience, and give the council the benefit of the doubt. We are in an incredibly chaotic metagame, and we need patience if we want to have the most accurate, stable experience possible.
 
Last edited:
It baffles me to see how Pheromosa still hasn't gotten the axe. I fail to understand how a Pokemon that outspeeds and destroys the entire tier outside Clefable, Toxapex, Tapu Fini and Moltres can be considered balanced. Not to mention CB sets can run through Clef and Fini without much problems. It resists Grassy Glide and Sucker Punch meaning even strong priorities cannot take it out. And revenge killing is out the window since if you sac something to it, it gets a +1 speed due to Beast Boost and impossible to outspeed.

I had inquired to the council about it earlier and they seem to believe it isn't a problem despite it being glaringly obvious the mon forces fat fairies/pex/moltres on every single team just to prevent being steamrolled. Is that what the council considers a healthy metagame? Where every team is forced to run a fat core and offense is virtually unviable?
Man 2020 has really turned the average smogon user into a frikin brat. Offense is FAR from unviable . And you should probably have a fighting resist and or fairy on every team anyway regardless of Mosa so it's really not forcing anything out of the norm. If you wanna roll up on the ladder with 6 mons with sky high attacking stats and no resists or defensive synergy thats your fault. Not mosa's and definitely not the councils i personally think they've been great this year aside from never suspecting clef/pex.
 
It baffles me to see how Pheromosa still hasn't gotten the axe. I fail to understand how a Pokemon that outspeeds and destroys the entire tier outside Clefable, Toxapex, Tapu Fini and Moltres can be considered balanced. Not to mention CB sets can run through Clef and Fini without much problems. It resists Grassy Glide and Sucker Punch meaning even strong priorities cannot take it out. And revenge killing is out the window since if you sac something to it, it gets a +1 speed due to Beast Boost and impossible to outspeed.

I had inquired to the council about it earlier and they seem to believe it isn't a problem despite it being glaringly obvious the mon forces fat fairies/pex/moltres on every single team just to prevent being steamrolled. Is that what the council considers a healthy metagame? Where every team is forced to run a fat core and offense is virtually unviable?
Pheromosa isn't quick ban worthy, the meta still hasn't full developed. Its so frail that it gets 1 shotted by so many things, even things like life orb crawdaunt aqua jet. Well point being is that it isn't the strongest threat around, It cant safely u turn against a team with a zapdos and moltres, You are forced to run boots to not get worn down, and it has to be brought in solely via teleport, slow u turn and volt switches it doesn't have the bulk to switch in. Yes, it can snowball games, yes it outspeed the entire unboosted metagame, but you could've said the same thing with zeraora which was the fastest thing pre DLC 2. Pheromosa sets can be known from preview, does it have a lot of hazard removal, if so its probably Choice band, If there is like 1 defogger its probably boots, It also has pathetic bulk, which prevents it doing much if it cant switch in safely, and its counters are easily splashable on teams, clef, fini, pex, amoonguss even to an extent can check and counter pheromosa. Its been 3 weeks since the release of DLC 2, so calm the hell down and let the meta develop, only time will tell if it will be ban worthy.
 
Buzzwole + Moltres being one of the best defensive cores (alongside blissbro) right now is not letting Pheromosa have any room to breath. Banded Pheromosa has no chance of breaking through Buzzwole at all, and while Banded Triple Axel can 2HKO Moltres you'd need some incredible luck to not be burned by flame body. LO or HDB Pheromosa does nothing to Moltres and even if Moltres takes Rocks after being knocked off Buzzwole can EV to live 2 LO Ice Beams. WoleTres manages to do this while simultaneously handling nearly all the physical threats in the metagame. Pheromosa can't even click U-turn freely, as sooner or later it's going to get burned and then it's crippled for the rest of the match.
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
Okay, time to talk about one of my favorite Pokemon... Volcarona!

1605198762550.png

Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Swarm / Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Bug Buzz / Giga Drain
- Psychic / Giga Drain
Volcarona is still an amazing setup sweeper like it always was. With access to one of the best boosting moves in the game in Quiver Dance, it can be an extremely potent wincon for many teams. I honestly prefer Swarm to be able to take advantage of Volcarona potentially taking hits while setting up, but Flame Body is great as well. It should be noted that you should not try risky plays to activate Swarm or burn something with Flame Body, as Volcarona is frail physically and only have average special bulk. Once you're set up, use your attacks to destroy everything. Fire Blast for sheer power while Flamethrower can be used for accuracy. The Fire STAB is one of the biggest draws in using Volcarona (outside of QD of course), as you easily destroy defensive Steel-types as well as bulky Grass-types. Volcarona have three moves to choose from for the remaining moves. Bug Buzz is by far the most common, netting STAB and hitting Psychic- and Dark-types like the prominant Latios. Psychic's main draw is hitting Toxapex, but you also hit Gapdos and Urshifu-R, among others. These two are used most often because Bug Buzz is STAB and hits Dark-types while Psychic hits Toxapex, which would stonewall Volcarona otherwise. However, Giga Drain can be run to hit water-types, in particular Tapu Fini and Quagfreakingsire. It also give Volcarona a bit of recovery. HDB is the best item on Volca because of its massive SR weakness.

In my opinion, Volcarona have a great place in the tier particularly because it can take advantage of some rising stars like Slowtwins and Buzzwole, as well as defensive Steel-types, that are attempting to check Zygarde and Black Kyurem. In fact, the abundance of such Pokemon gives Volcarona plenty of setup opportunities. The fact that Zygarde and Black Kyurem is in the tier only boosts Volcarona's viability as it can be great while pairs with them, taking care of afromentioned checks while they are able to absolutely destroy Blissey and Pex. I do realize that Volcarona has its weaknesses (such as heavily relying on its boots and having poor physical bulk), but I still think that it will have a great place in the tier.

Finally, I would like to touch a bit on defense. In particular, I have found the combo of Blissey, Slowbro, and Buzzwole quite effective. Reasoning? BlissBro is good, but any physical attacker that can get past Slowbro is practically golden. Buzzwole walls a bunch of Pokemon that can get past Slowbro, like Darkshifu (Watershifu is nicely stopped by Bro) and the aforementioned physical Pheromosa. The core has served my well on a couple of balance teams and I am really fond of it. It checks just about every offensive threat in the tier bar a select few (like Latios with its Psyshock). And now that the other guy mentions it, Moltres certainly does look like a nice partner for Buzzwole, and you can pair them with Blissey for reasons I’ve mentioned. Blissey takes care of special attackers, while Moltres+Buzzwole walls physical attackers. However, this core does take up three teamslots, and you still need a stealth rock setter and a defogger (unless you are running Moltres over Bro), not to mention offensive pressure. Offensive teams probably won’t like it, but I think these cores will be a great add for balance and semistall.
 
Last edited:

Katy

Banned deucer.
It baffles me to see how Pheromosa still hasn't gotten the axe. I fail to understand how a Pokemon that outspeeds and destroys the entire tier outside Clefable, Toxapex, Tapu Fini and Moltres can be considered balanced. Not to mention CB sets can run through Clef and Fini without much problems. It resists Grassy Glide and Sucker Punch meaning even strong priorities cannot take it out. And revenge killing is out the window since if you sac something to it, it gets a +1 speed due to Beast Boost and impossible to outspeed.

I had inquired to the council about it earlier and they seem to believe it isn't a problem despite it being glaringly obvious the mon forces fat fairies/pex/moltres on every single team just to prevent being steamrolled. Is that what the council considers a healthy metagame? Where every team is forced to run a fat core and offense is virtually unviable?
The council is always very transparent on what they do and why these actions where taken, like why banning Naganadel and Genesect and why they banned Landorus-I. Even in suspect threads there are always statements by each of the council members from OU and why they think Pokemon A or Pokemon B should be banned or how they feel about the presence of Pokemon A or Pokemon B in the current metagame.
The reason(s) as to why the council haven't adressed Pheromosa is, that this Generation as a whole across all tiers and first and foremost for OU is a pure hectic situation due to 2 DLC Packs which have been dropped, hence the tierleaders and council members have to go back and forth all the way in a cycle this Gen of OU.
To add onto it, they wanna give Pokemon a chance to stay in the OU-tier, therefore they need to be looked at, like they do currently with Zygarde, Kyurem-B, Pheromosa, and Melmetal and which they have done with Naganadel, Genesect, and Landorus-I.
Furthermore, the metagame has to develop and the members of the OU-council have to figure out themselves, which Pokemon are the very next steps to look at.

There are just too many factors as to why certain steps haven't been taken yet. It is such a hectic, chaotic situation which we have right now, that it isn't easy for the tierladers and council members themselves, and I in my personal believe think, that they did a great job so far with being transparent throughout the entire Generation 8 of OU. And they did the best job they could in that - to put it more bluntly - stressful tiering situation.

We all have disagreements, but being bitter and wrapping up words in other peoples mouthes won't help in that regard to solve a situation or to make this very situation better. Just look forward on the next steps of what the OU council will do is my advice in that case.
 
Pheromosa is stupid but not stupid enough. A good measure in my eyes of a broken pokemon is if it can navigate around its checks and due to the nature of Pheromosas hit-and-run playstyle (which subsequently means it can’t set up viably and that’s why it never runs anything like quiver dance) it doesn’t really succeed in getting around said checks and counters. For instance, Clefable is kind of struggling right now but seems to really consistently check Pheromosa unless it predicts like poison jab on the switch (and if you’re using poison jab you’re missing out on other coverage or moves that are just generally of more utility to Pheromosa).

A really big reason Lando-I just had to go was its huge arsenal to get around its checks or at least just make them pay for trying to check it. U-turn was great for grabbing momentum and Knock Off would cripple them off their item (Latis hated this especially because it was pretty strong too). Then Gravity Landorus started to become more popular and suddenly Landorus had no switchins. Lando and Pheromosa are slightly different in their playstyles but the point of not being able to get around mons that give it a hard time still stands.

Pheromosa’s checks obviously exist; outside of mons like Clef corvi it’s ridiculously susceptible to priority. I mean - shit - resisted Rillaboom can OHKO it. It doesn’t really carry anything to prepare for what is going to switch into it and kind of just spams U-turn. Spamming U-turn is annoying and it’s part of what got Genesect banned obviously but Pheromosa doesn’t have download to help it and really threaten out other moms with elite coverage like boltbeam.

In pre-DLC meta we struggled a ton with the soccer player because it regularly got around its checks with ease. Having STAB on every move helped it a ton and it was so unpredictable that it was near unmanageable. Pheromosa has extremely similar traits to this mon especially with U-turn spam but it can’t really get around what’s checking it like Cinderace could.

By the way, agreeing with poster above about Volcarona. Fun Pokemon.
 
Last edited:
So, I haven't posted in a while but I've been back since DLC 2. Love the meta right now, with a couple of notable exceptions. Gave myself some time to play it and while I'm glad the council has already handled some of the broken shit (Though I strongly believe Naganadel was not as banworthy as other shit that's still around and should have been looked at long after those left, but maybe that's because I don't just spam HO on ladder), I do feel it is being quite slow on some of these decisions:

1. Why are Kyurem Black and Zygarde still around? Kyurem Black was busted from the very start and is one of the mons most consistently complained about on forums and PS. Zygarde, whom I personally despise more than Kyub, took a bit longer but once people started using it again it has proved equally, if not more, busted this gen. The lack of HP Ice means Zyg's checks have been widdled down to a select few (Like Buzzwole, Clef, Fini, revenge killing before setup, Dnite) while eliminating answers such as Tangrowth and Bulu from the equation. Glare is a basically-no-drawback button to click on Zyg, which lets it easily hax past his checks, Tarrows is a perfect move, and Zyg's bulk and snowball effect with its great boosting moves and movepool make it quite evidently overpowered and ridiculous to deal with in the metagame. And all of this was already known to us from gen 7. I simply do not understand why it is taking so long to ban Kyurem Black and Zygarde.

2. I suspect Pheromosa and Magearna could likely be the next broken mons in the meta once the big 2 leave. I do believe Cinderace, Melmetal and Blaziken are likely to stay in OU, however.

I wanted to make my contribution to the discussion, and this is my start. I am otherwise quite happy with it and honestly I'm glad so many UU mons can actually succeed on OU rn without much difficulty.
 

Kyo

In Limbo
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
National Dex Leader
Is anyone actually using ice beam pheromosa still? I feel like triple axel is far and away the best option. Hitting off phero's invested attacking stat with a higher bp move lets you do a lot more damage. There are a few niche situations where I could see ice beam being better like vs coil zygarde but that set usually tries to get behind a sub in which case you're better off breaking it in two hits and hopefully getting a third hit off after for big damage. Ice beam is probably only better on life orb pheromosa so that you can 2hko buzzwole after rocks
 
I think Spectrier is a bigger threat than we realize right now, and many posts fail to mention how it controls teambuilding. Nearly all teams need a ghost resist/immunity lest you get run over by Specs variants (having one is great for Dragapult too). Many of these ghost resists lose in larger contexts, though. Mandibuzz is set up fodder if Spectrier EVs to live burnt Foul Play from behind sub, forcing Mandibuzz to run the sub-optimal knock off, which can also be EV'd for. Tyranitar is easily chipped and hates the accompanying Toxic Spikes and also hates being burnt. Shadow Ball Blissey or Bliss+pult seem like good checks, but the rising popularity of calm mind variants of Spectrier mean these options are getting less and less effective by the day. Many non-ghost resists can deal with sub Spectrier but lose to Specs variants, or even scarf variants which snowball easily. The biggest point here is the rise in Calm Mind, which would usually be outclassed by nasty plot, but in this case many of the best ways of dealing with Spectrier use special attacks. Against a team whose game plan vs. Spectrier is Bliss Pult, Spectrier is a huge problem. The main Drawback of Spectrier is choosing its coverage move, as Ghost is blanked by Blissey, Psychic is blanked by common ghost resists and dark resists are common given Urshifu. Unless it is a Wisp+taunt set, then it beats normal types. It's similar to Cinderace pre-Crown Tundra, the main differences being that while Cinderace has the ability to U-turn out of checks, Cinderace rarely 6-0s teams if it has the right set, as most super effective hits still fail to OHKO. Spectrier, on the other hand, often can sweep through teams if it has the right set, and even if it has the wrong set Will-O-Wisp can cripple physical attackers and defensive mons who use physical attacks. Taunt prevents healing and can aid a teammate chipping down bulky mons that are hard to break.

Edit: Made an oopsie by thinking Mono-Ghost Spectrier 6-0s a team with Blissey, which is blatantly untrue.
 
Last edited:
I think Spectrier is a bigger threat than we realize right now, and many posts fail to mention how it controls teambuilding. Nearly all teams need a ghost resist/immunity lest you get run over by Specs variants (having one is great for Dragapult too). Many of these ghost resists lose in larger contexts, though. Mandibuzz is set up fodder if Spectrier EVs to live burnt Foul Play from behind sub, forcing Mandibuzz to run the sub-optimal knock off, which can also be EV'd for. Tyranitar is easily chipped and hates the accompanying Toxic Spikes and also hates being burnt. Shadow Ball blissey or Bliss+pult seem like good checks, but the rising popularity of calm mind variants of Spectrier mean these options are getting less and less effective by the day. Many non-ghost resists can deal with sub spectrier but lose to Specs variants, or even scarf variants which snowball easily. The biggest point here is the rise in Calm Mind, which would usually be outclassed by nasty plot, but in this case many of the best ways of dealing with Spectrier use special attacks. Against a team whose game plan vs. Spectrier is Bliss Pult, Spectrier is a huge problem. The main Drawback of Spectrier is choosing its coverage move, as Ghost is blanked by Blissey, Psychic is blanked by common ghost resists and dark resists are common given Urshifu. Unless it is a Wisp+taunt set, then it beats normal types.

Edit: Made an oopsie by thinking Mono-Ghost Spectrier 6-0s a team with Blissey, which is blatantly untrue.
Spectrier is definitely a very good Pokemon right now and smart player can make it snowball. That said, it has clear drawbacks which I feel don't even need to be mentioned. It has multiple sets, but they each have issues in certain match ups, and I feel the presence of Specially bulky mons and powerful Scarfers and fast Pokemon in the tier helps alleviate the power and snowball effect it has. Its definitely a powerful mon but I don't think its broken at all. It would be akin to arguing Regileki should be looked at because some teams run Ring Target Trick to make it overcome checks.
 

Gomi

yep
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Is anyone actually using ice beam pheromosa still? I feel like triple axel is far and away the best option. Hitting off phero's invested attacking stat with a higher bp move lets you do a lot more damage. There are a few niche situations where I could see ice beam being better like vs coil zygarde but that set usually tries to get behind a sub in which case you're better off breaking it in two hits and hopefully getting a third hit off after for big damage. Ice beam is probably only better on life orb pheromosa so that you can 2hko buzzwole after rocks
i've noticed the exact opposite honestly. Axel means you're "walled" by Zapdos in a sense due to Static, and Ice Beam 2hkos/ohkos pretty much everything you'd need it to with a neutral Spa nature, aka Grounds and Flyings weak to Ice coverage. The only reason at all that I run Axel over Beam is for the potential to get damage off on a sub Zygy. The only time I can really see Axel genuinely being worth it beyond Zygarde is if you're Adamant CB Mosa, And even that's very shaky due to Axel's below average accuracy.
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- approx. 87.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's also pretty frustrating taking huge amounts of chip vs Rocky Helm grounds/Rocky Helm mons in general for attempting to use your Ice Coverage on them, as Rocky Helm is already a big headache to pivot heavy mons similar to Mosa as it is.
 
Spectrier is definitely a very good Pokemon right now and smart player can make it snowball. That said, it has clear drawbacks which I feel don't even need to be mentioned. It has multiple sets, but they each have issues in certain match ups, and I feel the presence of Specially bulky mons and powerful Scarfers and fast Pokemon in the tier helps alleviate the power and snowball effect it has. Its definitely a powerful mon but I don't think its broken at all. It would be akin to arguing Regileki should be looked at because some teams run Ring Target Trick to make it overcome checks.
The difference is that Ring Target Trick can be predicted (or even blanked in the case of running my favorite move fling), Spectrier brings things like this to a whole new level. While there are many ground types in OU (Zygarde OP, Swampert packs defensive utility, Excadrill packs overall Utility, steel typing, and sand sweeping, Landorus packs offensive power and Pivoting utility), there is an absence of Dark types. There are 3 dark types in OU: Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, and Urshifu. Mandibuzz can be burnt,which allows it to live Foul Play behind sub, while at +3 Spectrier 2HKOs it with boosted Hex. Spectrier can't break through tyranitar, but many Spectrier teams come equipped with Toxic Spikes, and even if they don't Tyranitar can be burnt and then every switch-in stings with Rocks and the minor chip from Hex. Urshifu essentially becomes crippled from Will-O-Wisp, and after it's burnt Urshifu fails to 2HKO Clefable with a Super-Effective Iron Head, not to mention the fact that Hex 2HKOs a burnt Urshifu. Blissey blanks the most common Sub+Cm+Wisp variants, but Spectrier blanks it back and slowly wears it down with Wisp+Taunt, which chips Blissey for teammates and drains its PP really quick. Shadow Ball Blissey may seem great, but Spectrier with Sub+Cm+Dark Pulse sets up on it and makes spam Soft-Boiled, all the while running the risk of getting one flinch. Blissey may also be knocked off by a teammate and then forced to take Tspikes. Many may run Timid, but Modest's only drawback is losing the speed tie versus Tapu Koko and being outspeed by plus-speed Cinderace and Torn-T.

Reading this over here are the sets that I'm suggesting can break through common checks.
Spectrier @ Leftovers
Modest Nature
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 100 Def / 188 SpA / 220 Spe
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute
- Calm Mind

Lives burnt foul play behind sub, outspeeds Timid Latios.

Spectrier @ Leftovers
Modest Nature
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 100 Def / 188 SpA / 220 Spe
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute/Taunt
- Calm Mind/Taunt

Substitute Sub or Cm for Taunt. This allows it to slowly wear down its checks by taunting as they switch in, forcing them to go for an attacking move and not heal, which can give a free switch in to a partner pokemon and can slowly chip them down.

Spectrier @ Leftovers
Modest Nature
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
- Shadow Ball
- Dark Pulse
- Substitute
- Calm Mind

Sets up on and beats Blissey, while it can muscle through most other ghost resists with a heavily boosted Shadow Ball.

Spectrier @ Leftovers
Timid Nature
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
- Shadow Ball/Hex
- Dark Pulse
- Taunt
- Haze/Will-O-Wisp

Muscles through most non-ghost resists.

Sure this may seem shaky, as in total this 4 sets, but keep in mind that the right set can 6-0 many a team. The only pokemon that can consistently and reliably blank and destroy every meta spectrier set is Obstagoon, which loves Will-O-Wisp, ignores taunt, is immune to shadow ball, resists dark pulse, has little reliable defensive counterplay and smacks anything coming in with a Knock Off.
 
beam is probably only better on life orb pheromosa so that you can 2hko buzzwole after rocks
It doesn't even do that if you're running a +SpD buzzwole (which I've been quite liking at the moment)
for reference: 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Buzzwole: 139-165 (33.2 - 39.4%)

To pivot towards that, I think running max/near-max SpD on buzzwole is a pretty good option as long as you're not relying on it as your only Kyu-B check. Its natural bulk is such that it's still is able to roost up on most of the other physical attackers it wants to check, and the special bulk it gets is fairly surprising - it eats Phero's ice beams even if it's 252 LO (as my calc shows), it's able to avoid a 2HKO from an uninvested Zapdos heatwave and threaten ice punch freezes, and it can catch out chipped Heatrans who may be expecting Magma Storm to OHKO and kill them with +1 Drain Punch. If physical bulk is required for something like Cinderace's pyro ball it can use Bulk Up to bring it up to normal levels in case it switches in. Plus, with low Physdef investment, it's much easier to EV attack higher so it can beast boost its attack and potentially sweep (which is always nice).
Obviously, with +SpD it can get chipped down into Wicked Blow/Smart Strike/Iron Head/Wood Hammer 2HKO range a little easier than other sets, so I quite like running Boots on it to help it stay healthy while still being able to sponge physical hits.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kyo
It doesn't even do that if you're running a +SpD buzzwole (which I've been quite liking at the moment)
for reference: 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Buzzwole: 139-165 (33.2 - 39.4%)

To pivot towards that, I think running max/near-max SpD on buzzwole is a pretty good option as long as you're not relying on it as your only Kyu-B check. Its natural bulk is such that it's still is able to roost up on most of the other physical attackers it wants to check, and the special bulk it gets is fairly surprising - it eats Phero's ice beams even if it's 252 LO (as my calc shows), it's able to avoid a 2HKO from an uninvested Zapdos heatwave and threaten ice punch freezes, and it can catch out chipped Heatrans who may be expecting Magma Storm to OHKO and kill them with +1 Drain Punch. If physical bulk is required for something like Cinderace's pyro ball it can use Bulk Up to bring it up to normal levels in case it switches in. Plus, with low Physdef investment, it's much easier to EV attack higher so it can beast boost its attack and potentially sweep (which is always nice).
Obviously, with +SpD it can get chipped down into Wicked Blow/Smart Strike/Iron Head/Wood Hammer 2HKO range a little easier than other sets, so I quite like running Boots on it to help it stay healthy while still being able to sponge physical hits.
You can also avoid the 2HKO from LO Mosa Ice Beam with 24 spdef EVs, while running 64 Spdef EVs allow you to avoid the 3HKO from Boots Pheromosa's Ice Beam after Leftovers.
 
Hey everyone, something that I've noticed from recent discussion is that Future Sight doesn't come up a lot. Why is that? Future Sight is easily one of the best tools to make progress in the current metagame in my experience. The combination of Future Sight and Teleport from Slowbro and Slowking can create a lot of freedom for many different wallbreakers. I would like to talk about such wallbreakers that ride off Future Sight in this post, and hope to encourage you to try these combinations out too!


Zygarde @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Scale Shot
- Toxic / Glare

Choice Band Zygarde synergizes ridiculously well with Future Sight. I don't think it's that hard to see why either; Pokemon such as physically defensive Clefable narrowly avoid being 2HKOed by Thousand Arrows and Future Sight adds just that little bit of damage needed to effectively overwhelm it. Not just that, but Future Sight also invalidates Pokemon like Buzzwole and Tangrowth as answers; they simply cannot switch into Future Sight well.


Pheromosa @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Triple Axel
- Drill Run

Pheromosa @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin / Drill Run

Pheromosa is another Pokemon where the synergy is simply astounding. Why Pheromosa benefits off Future Sight so well should be really easy to see; it forces so many switches with its incredible Speed tier and great offensive typing, all while oftentimes forcing in Poison- and Fighting-type Pokemon like Toxapex and Buzzwole. Beyond that, it also becomes quite easy to overwhelm Fairy-types like Clefable because of how much pressure U-turn + Future Sight + whatever is coming in, like Magearna can exert on it. Even Moltres can quite quickly be overwhelmed by Pheromosa using U-turn + Future Sight.


Melmetal @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Superpower
- Thunder Punch

The combination of Choice Band Melmetal and Future Sight is another ridiculously powerful one. Checks like Toxapex, Moltres, and Buzzwole can barely hang on vs it already, and Future Sight gives it just that little edge that its damage output is otherwise barely not enough for.


Urshifu @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Wicked Blow
- U-turn
- Sucker Punch / Poison Jab

I imagine that the combination of Urshifu-S and Future Sight is still pretty notorious from the earlier rounds of WCOP. It's no secret that it's incredibly hard to switch into Urshifu-S backed by a Future Sight without ahving to sack 1 Pokemon; at best you switch your Mandibuzz into a Wicked Blow. Pokemon like Toxapex, Clefable, and Buzzwole simply aren't effective checks when there's a Future Sight in play. This combination was previously not too overbearing due to the restrictive nature of teambuilding, but with the many new tools we got with Crown Tundra and the state of the metagame, it is very possible to build with this combination.


Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt

Lastly, I feel like it would be a crime to not include Cinderace. It may not be the most popular thing around right now, but it undeniably is still one of the better Pokemon to combine with Future Sight. Just about anyone who followed WCOP should be familiar with Cinderace and how well it synergizes with Future Sight. Its the same thing as with Pheromosa: it forces a ridiculous amount of switches and can capitalize off that with a really strong U-turn and coverage moves. Forcing in Pokemon like Toxapex and Hippowdon is something Cinderace often does, and it can easily push KOes against them when there is a Future Sight following suit.

I know a lot of this was the same of "This Pokemon forces a lot of switches into Poison- and Fighting-types, so it's strong with Future Sight", but I really think that Future Sight deserves more exploration and discussion in this thread. I only scratched the surface when it comes to Pokemon that synergize well with Future Sight! There's a bunch of other Pokemon that synergize well with Future Sight, like Magearna, Tapu Koko, etc. you get the point. I hope this post was somewhat interesting to read despite the repetitive nature, and have a nice day!
 
Hey everyone, something that I've noticed from recent discussion is that Future Sight doesn't come up a lot. Why is that? Future Sight is easily one of the best tools to make progress in the current metagame in my experience. The combination of Future Sight and Teleport from Slowbro and Slowking can create a lot of freedom for many different wallbreakers. I would like to talk about such wallbreakers that ride off Future Sight in this post, and hope to encourage you to try these combinations out too!


Zygarde @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Scale Shot
- Toxic / Glare

Choice Band Zygarde synergizes ridiculously well with Future Sight. I don't think it's that hard to see why either; Pokemon such as physically defensive Clefable narrowly avoid being 2HKOed by Thousand Arrows and Future Sight adds just that little bit of damage needed to effectively overwhelm it. Not just that, but Future Sight also invalidates Pokemon like Buzzwole and Tangrowth as answers; they simply cannot switch into Future Sight well.


Pheromosa @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Triple Axel
- Drill Run

Pheromosa @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin / Drill Run

Pheromosa is another Pokemon where the synergy is simply astounding. Why Pheromosa benefits off Future Sight so well should be really easy to see; it forces so many switches with its incredible Speed tier and great offensive typing, all while oftentimes forcing in Poison- and Fighting-type Pokemon like Toxapex and Buzzwole. Beyond that, it also becomes quite easy to overwhelm Fairy-types like Clefable because of how much pressure U-turn + Future Sight + whatever is coming in, like Magearna can exert on it. Even Moltres can quite quickly be overwhelmed by Pheromosa using U-turn + Future Sight.


Melmetal @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Superpower
- Thunder Punch

The combination of Choice Band Melmetal and Future Sight is another ridiculously powerful one. Checks like Toxapex, Moltres, and Buzzwole can barely hang on vs it already, and Future Sight gives it just that little edge that its damage output is otherwise barely not enough for.


Urshifu @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Wicked Blow
- U-turn
- Sucker Punch / Poison Jab

I imagine that the combination of Urshifu-S and Future Sight is still pretty notorious from the earlier rounds of WCOP. It's no secret that it's incredibly hard to switch into Urshifu-S backed by a Future Sight without ahving to sack 1 Pokemon; at best you switch your Mandibuzz into a Wicked Blow. Pokemon like Toxapex, Clefable, and Buzzwole simply aren't effective checks when there's a Future Sight in play. This combination was previously not too overbearing due to the restrictive nature of teambuilding, but with the many new tools we got with Crown Tundra and the state of the metagame, it is very possible to build with this combination.


Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt

Lastly, I feel like it would be a crime to not include Cinderace. It may not be the most popular thing around right now, but it undeniably is still one of the better Pokemon to combine with Future Sight. Just about anyone who followed WCOP should be familiar with Cinderace and how well it synergizes with Future Sight. Its the same thing as with Pheromosa: it forces a ridiculous amount of switches and can capitalize off that with a really strong U-turn and coverage moves. Forcing in Pokemon like Toxapex and Hippowdon is something Cinderace often does, and it can easily push KOes against them when there is a Future Sight following suit.

I know a lot of this was the same of "This Pokemon forces a lot of switches into Poison- and Fighting-types, so it's strong with Future Sight", but I really think that Future Sight deserves more exploration and discussion in this thread. I only scratched the surface when it comes to Pokemon that synergize well with Future Sight! There's a bunch of other Pokemon that synergize well with Future Sight, like Magearna, Tapu Koko, etc. you get the point. I hope this post was somewhat interesting to read despite the repetitive nature, and have a nice day!
Future Sight is an amazing move right now, yes. Balance for sure uses it to its fullest just because of how gof Bro is right now. Is there any other relevant mons that use Future Sight effectively though? Other than the Slow Brothers.
 
The only pokemon that can consistently and reliably blank and destroy every meta spectrier set is Obstagoon, which loves Will-O-Wisp, ignores taunt, is immune to shadow ball, resists dark pulse, has little reliable defensive counterplay and smacks anything coming in with a Knock Off.
...that is, until you run into a Substitute Disable Spectrier that abuses Pokemon which run only one attacking move or in general just one move that can hit you and turns them into complete setup fodder, which in Obstagoon's case is Knock Off. Disable that, and then you can set up infinite boosts as it slowly wears itself down with burn damage. Obstagoon can potentially beat this in the long run by just switching out, sure, but it's longevity is not the greatest due to constant 6% each turn, which can be accelerated by entry hazards like Spikes or residual damage from Rocky Helmet.

I do think this set is worse than the other ones but it's completely possible. I've ran into this set a few times before and have lost on the spot because I did not expect my mon to be disabled and incapable of attacking.
 
Last edited:
...that is, until you run into a Substitute Disable Spectrier that abuses Pokemon which run only one attacking move or in general just one move that can hit you and turns them into complete setup fodder, which in Obstagoon's case is Knock Off. Disable that, and then you can set up infinite boosts as it slowly wears itself down with burn damage
Damn yeah Spectrier's limited movepool isn't looking so limited anymore now huh. Maybe I'll run some Sub-Disable Spectriers. Honestly, Sub-Disable Spectriers can probably afford to run mono-Dark Pulse, as most dark resists like Buzzwole, Urshifu, Clefable, and offensive fighting types can only hit it with one move.

Hey everyone, something that I've noticed from recent discussion is that Future Sight doesn't come up a lot. Why is that? Future Sight is easily one of the best tools to make progress in the current metagame in my experience. The combination of Future Sight and Teleport from Slowbro and Slowking can create a lot of freedom for many different wallbreakers. I would like to talk about such wallbreakers that ride off Future Sight in this post, and hope to encourage you to try these combinations out too!


Zygarde @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Scale Shot
- Toxic / Glare

Choice Band Zygarde synergizes ridiculously well with Future Sight. I don't think it's that hard to see why either; Pokemon such as physically defensive Clefable narrowly avoid being 2HKOed by Thousand Arrows and Future Sight adds just that little bit of damage needed to effectively overwhelm it. Not just that, but Future Sight also invalidates Pokemon like Buzzwole and Tangrowth as answers; they simply cannot switch into Future Sight well.


Pheromosa @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Triple Axel
- Drill Run

Pheromosa @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin / Drill Run

Pheromosa is another Pokemon where the synergy is simply astounding. Why Pheromosa benefits off Future Sight so well should be really easy to see; it forces so many switches with its incredible Speed tier and great offensive typing, all while oftentimes forcing in Poison- and Fighting-type Pokemon like Toxapex and Buzzwole. Beyond that, it also becomes quite easy to overwhelm Fairy-types like Clefable because of how much pressure U-turn + Future Sight + whatever is coming in, like Magearna can exert on it. Even Moltres can quite quickly be overwhelmed by Pheromosa using U-turn + Future Sight.


Melmetal @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Superpower
- Thunder Punch

The combination of Choice Band Melmetal and Future Sight is another ridiculously powerful one. Checks like Toxapex, Moltres, and Buzzwole can barely hang on vs it already, and Future Sight gives it just that little edge that its damage output is otherwise barely not enough for.


Urshifu @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Wicked Blow
- U-turn
- Sucker Punch / Poison Jab

I imagine that the combination of Urshifu-S and Future Sight is still pretty notorious from the earlier rounds of WCOP. It's no secret that it's incredibly hard to switch into Urshifu-S backed by a Future Sight without ahving to sack 1 Pokemon; at best you switch your Mandibuzz into a Wicked Blow. Pokemon like Toxapex, Clefable, and Buzzwole simply aren't effective checks when there's a Future Sight in play. This combination was previously not too overbearing due to the restrictive nature of teambuilding, but with the many new tools we got with Crown Tundra and the state of the metagame, it is very possible to build with this combination.


Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt

Lastly, I feel like it would be a crime to not include Cinderace. It may not be the most popular thing around right now, but it undeniably is still one of the better Pokemon to combine with Future Sight. Just about anyone who followed WCOP should be familiar with Cinderace and how well it synergizes with Future Sight. Its the same thing as with Pheromosa: it forces a ridiculous amount of switches and can capitalize off that with a really strong U-turn and coverage moves. Forcing in Pokemon like Toxapex and Hippowdon is something Cinderace often does, and it can easily push KOes against them when there is a Future Sight following suit.

I know a lot of this was the same of "This Pokemon forces a lot of switches into Poison- and Fighting-types, so it's strong with Future Sight", but I really think that Future Sight deserves more exploration and discussion in this thread. I only scratched the surface when it comes to Pokemon that synergize well with Future Sight! There's a bunch of other Pokemon that synergize well with Future Sight, like Magearna, Tapu Koko, etc. you get the point. I hope this post was somewhat interesting to read despite the repetitive nature, and have a nice day!
The meta right now only barely manages to wall things. If this becomes widespread maybe we could get some bans going.
 

Nihilego

After seeing some posts in this thread asking about Nihilego's potential in the metagame, I decided to do some experimentation with it myself. While I found that the proposed Meteor Beam Power Herb set was actually underwhelming (with the exception of being an "okay" late-game cleaner with proper support), I found a few specific sets that utilize the extradimensional jellyfish's strengths. I will also be listing a few additional options that I haven't tried with Nihilego, but seem promising.


Nihilego @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock / Power Gem
- Power Gem / Grass Knot
- Sludge Bomb
- Grass Knot / Hex

All the /'s will be explained in the paragraphs below, as they are

So, what does Nihilego bring to the table? Extremely solid Special bulk even when uninvested (109 / 131 is nothing to sneeze at), a unique speed tier shared only with Emolga which edges out Pokemon such as Garchomp, Thundurus-T, and all the base 100s running around, the ability to snowball with Special Attack boosts courtesy of Beast Boost and a uniquely adaptable movepool with an interesting STAB combination and unique possibilities.

So let's examine my personal favorite of the movesets, LO + 4 Attacks. It may seem simple on the surface, but there's a method to the madness. This set is designed to wear down the opponent's team via status gambling, forced switches, and uniquely unexpected coverage options. Sludge Bomb is mandatory on both sets we're talking about here as a powerful STAB attack to handle Fairy types such as Clefable along with granting a 30% poison chance. Said 30% Poison chance is far more relevant and necessary than the additional 5 base power that Sludge Wave grants. Hex is the unique tech option that I've found the most useful, as it instantly makes most Ghost-weak switch-ins (including Ghost-types themselves) an instant target for a very spammable 120 base power Ghost-type attack that most Pokemon can't stand up to when poisoned. Grass Knot is vastly preferred over Thunderbolt because of the specific coverage that it gains, notably against Ground, Rock types (and the combined Water / Ground Swampert) while additionally taking care of Water types. Coverage for Flying types is accounted for here as STAB Power Gem rounds out the necessary coverage on this set, and also hits Ice and Fire types super effectively on top of this.

252 SpA Life Orb Nihilego Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 439-517 (104.5 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Nihilego Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 224-265 (65.6 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Nihilego Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 489-577 (121 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The other option I've been running is a Stealth Rock + 3 attacks set, seemingly standard in nature but it has several unique qualities over its competitors, namely its Poison STAB and Beast Boost ability, allowing it to apply offensive pressure directly after setting up Rocks. The three attacks this set uses are Sludge Bomb, Grass Knot, and Power Gem, although for this set due to the focus not being around setting poison, you could run Sludge Wave instead of Sludge Bomb for the power boost.

Additional options could have specific uses, such as combining Toxic Spikes with a moveset involving Hex, or if you really want to run it, the previously mentioned Meteor Beam Power Herb late-game cleaner set or even a Screens set, as Nihilego gains access to both Reflect and Light Screen.
 
Nihilego isn't the best special attacker and is completely stuffed by special walls and sp def heatran specifically, it also doesn't have the best defences and utility since its very frail physically and is weak to many common types
 
Nihilego isn't the best special attacker and is completely stuffed by special walls and sp def heatran specifically, it also doesn't have the best defences and utility since its very frail physically and is weak to many common types
Why is it completely stuffed by spd heatran when heatran is hitted neutrally by power gem and mostly important by power herb meteor beam which is still its best set in my opinion, it resists to magma storm and is immune to toxic.
Spd heatran is still a decent answer because it is stupidly bulky and got earth power, but Nihilego can still bypass it especially with hazards and prior damage support.
 

ViZar

your toast is burned
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Why is it completely stuffed by spd heatran when heatran is hitted neutrally by power gem and mostly important by power herb meteor beam which is still its best set in my opinion, it resists to magma storm and is immune to toxic.
Spd heatran is still a decent answer because it is stupidly bulky and got earth power, but Nihilego can still bypass it especially with hazards and prior damage support.
Here is your answer
252 SpA Life Orb Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 122-146 (31.6 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 256-304 (71.3 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yes Meteor Beam does a lot of damage, but you can use it one time
+1 252 SpA Nihilego Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 213-252 (55.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 4)

Top